Gore's failure to win WV--an important allegory for 2004

[AP]

This was posted by TK in P&C. It needs broader distribution:

TKP (5 posts)
Tue Oct-14-03 08:56 AM
3. WV Politics & Beyond

I have a very good friend of mine from Morgantown, WV whose father was the president of the UMWA for 20 years in the 70's and 80's. Quite a character, and every other word out of his mouth is "union", a man who strongly defends what he believes. I had an opportunity a couple of years ago to go with my firend to his hometown and visit his family and took the occasion to speak with his father about the recent victory for Bush in 2000. This guy was basically the money carrier for the UMWA, the one who went to give the check to the party for support. In the past he had entertained LBJ, McGovern, Carter, Dukakis, Gore, etc... in his home. He told me he traveled to Charleston, WV to meet with the candidate and express his position and find out what they were going to do for the union. Al Gore didn't show, they sent Tipper. She was meeting with an environmental group. I don't need to tell you what mining does to the land. And as he put it, needless to say he turned around and went home, the union did not push Gore, and they lost the state.

I do not wish to step out of line with DU policy at any time, and it is certainly not my intention at this time to do so. But this brings up a point that needs to be considered (and probably has been discussed before I ever logged onto this site). While most people vote their wallets, it has become increasing difficult for some who were formerly strong Democratic voters to support the candidates as they formerly did. Take for instance my friend's father. Strong Democrat. Strong union man. He sees the Democratic party embracing environmentalist, gay rights, appearances as though they wish God would go away, things along that line, and he can't marry the these conflicts (as he sees them) together.

I don't know. Maybe it just an older generation. But it seems our Party has sprung a lot of changes on the old guard, and let's face it, on the people with disposable income and influence who could fund and carry the message that this is a Party of the working people, and it's turned them away. I know my parents and many of my relatives who were strong Democrats have felt like their concerns have been shoved aside because of special interests. IMHO, we need to get back to emphasizing ourselves as being for the working class, retrench as it were, and quit focusing so much on the special interests which can be used to divide and conquer us. The 2000 election results in WV are a mirror of what has happened to the Party nationwide.

Sig: I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

[LynneSin]

1. How can Robert Byrd (D) win 65% of West Virginia and Gore still loses

Everytime I hear folks bitch about Ralph Nadar I keep thinking about West Virginia. Folks love Robert Byrd and overwhelmingly supported his re-election and yet Gore didn't win the state.

Did West Virginia eliminate the "Democrat" level (the one that allows you to vote straight democrat)

Did West Virginia swap parties next to Bush and Gores name on some of the ballot?

Did Ralph Nadar or Pat Buchanan have massive followings in the state.

Or.....

Did Al Gore lose the state?

The NRA spent a shitload of money in that state to help defeat Al Gore. Although West Virginia is a strong union state and loves Robert Byrd, they are also big fans of guns and hunting. That had to hurt Gore in West Virginia even though Gore never had any kind of radical anti-gun stance.

We need to stop figuring out what Ralph Nadar did to us in 2000 and start figuring out why we lost states like West Virginia

[AP]

3. Well, if you believe TKM, it's because he sent Tipper to talk to the union

or at least that's (a big) part of the reason.

[Loyal]

12. Robert Byrd won 78% of WV,

not 65%. Shit, Lynne, if he won only 65% that would be a TERRIBLE year for him. See my post below.

[Freddie Stubbs]

47. Byrd is not an enviornmentalist when it come to mining

[mitchtv]

2. well , with all due respect

i hope the party does well in WV but the minute I hear them drop environmental Ideas and things like(special Interest) pro choice , gay rights. I'm outa here.

[AP]

5. It's not about DROPPING environmental issues,

it's about prioritizing the issues.

Labor stands for spreading wealth and power among the working class. Throw in the middle class, and you have the umbrella under which all other liberal issues should fall.

Environmentalism should REALLY be about not shifting social wealth and profits to the hands of large corporations. Gay rights is about equal opportunity to compete (in the marketplace) on a level playing field.

Gore didn't have a coherent liberal persona. He was more interested in his environmentalist persona than he was in being a Democrat in his core. You send Tipper to the Sierra Club mtg and you go to the union mtg in WV if you want to be the democratic president.

This story also echoes that Southern Strategy article that was posted here. Don't send a Dem down to the south who acts like he cares more about the boutique liberal issues than he or she cares about the umbrella liberal issue -- middle and working class opportunity, and therefore economic and political power.

[Noordam]

4. Gore lost the final outcome of 2000 Himself

Had Gore won WV Florida would have been a non issue.

Had Gore won Nev Florida would have been a non issue

Had Gore won Tenn Florida would have been a non issue.

Gore walked away from his Union base in WV. That is crazy. On the other hand Gore walked away from his environmental beliefs in Nev. In both cases he should have won those states.

[Noordam]

6. WV Numbers

George_W._Bush____Richard_Cheney__Republican______336,475__51.92%
Albert_Gore_Jr._____Joseph_Lieberman__Democrat______295,497__45.59
Ralph_Nader________Winona_LaDuke__Green___________10,680__1.65%
Patrick_Buchanan__Ezola_Foster__Reform______________3,169__0.49%Harry_Browne______Art_Olivier__Libertarian__________1,912__0.30%

From http://www.uselectionatlas.org./USPRESIDENT/frametextj.html

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. New Hampshire was closer

Bush 278,559 (48.6%) Gore 266,848 (46.2%) Nader 22,188 (3.9%) Others 5,700 (1.0%)

But I agree with AP. WV is a state that NO WAY we should have lost. NH however points to a future possibility.

[Loyal]

15. If Nader hadn't run,

or at least urged people to vote for Gore, Florida and New Hampshire would have been non-issues.

[Bandit]

7. So they vote for Bush*????

I can understand some sour grapes for Gore not showing up but the rest is garbage. Who else is going to represent their interests, Bush*??????

[Noordam]

8. There was a lot of talk of places Gore did not go

that other canidates did in the past as I remember.

[laruemtt]

13. don't know if this is relevant

but here in Huntington, we voted on touch-screen computers for the first time. were we guinea pigs? is that why wv for the first time went totally out of character and voted repuke????

[AP]

14. If the union doesn't push it's members to vote dem, they're just

as suseptible to voting Repuke as the office park dad.

[AP]

16. Who's going to campaign for you if you're not campaigning for them?

I'm sure that many union members who voted did vote for Gore. But I'm sure more would have been motivated if the Gore had motivated them by showing he cared.

[DoNotRefill]

21. Or...

considering the demographic being vastly blue-collar and pro-gun, they were turned off by Gore's nation-wide FOID proposal.

[Bandit]

22. So how do you think they feel now?

I don't buy the moron theory. I think most of our union workers know exactly who will best represent them. I'm sorry Gore didn't show up. He should have but I mean is that any reason to sell out your soul?

[AP]

34. It doesn't matter if it's a reason to sell your soul (and they didn't sell

their souls)

(1) Who cares if it's a good reason or not ot not show up and vote for Gore. That doesn't matter. What matters is that Gore didn't got to WV with a message which energized the union workers and he lost. He should have gone there with a good message.

(2) This isn't a question of selling your soul and voting for Bush or biting the bullet and voting for a Gore when he didn't seem interested in you. This is about generating enthusiasm and getting the political machine to repeat your name over and over again so that thousands of union members feel the urgence to go out and vote. Gore sending Tipper to meet with the unions sends a big message to labor: don't get too enthusiastic about me. And they didn't.

[DoNotRefill]

20. Not necessarily...

they may very well just stay home. The effect is the same.

There are lots of people who have become disenchanted with BOTH parties, and figure that they don't owe their party loyalty when their party continually fucks them on issues that are dear to their hearts.

If you take the voters for granted and piss all over them, don't be surprised when they don't support you just because you're the lesser of two evils.

[Bandit]

23. They aren't supporting me they are supporting themselves

If they wish to be thought of as morons then they can stay home and reap what they sow, but to just stay home because they didn't get to see Gore is downright childish and self destructive.
"The effect is the same" Isn't that exactly what Nader said?

[AP]

35. Oh comen on. I've seen campaigns where, say, NOW, says, oh well, this

guy isn't on board with our message but we'll work for them anyway. You know how that works out? Well, it's hard to fake enthusiasm.

One of the easiest jobs a Dem has is to get NOW, Unions and the Sierra Club excited about a Democrat. Gore should have gotten everyone excited. He didn't in WV.

[fujiyama]

45. You have a good point...

I don't think Gore emphasized either his environmental persona or core democratic one. The main problem was that he should have made it clear to people in Ohio and WV that it's not an "either or" proposition when it comes to jobs. He did at times, but it wasn't enough and it wasn't clear. He should have explained how when we have cleaner energy technology, the same people will find a job, but will have to undergo retraining...If I remember Bush was able to scare people into believing his environmental policies would cripple WV, where coal mining is a major employer.

WV should not have been lost. I think it was the only state, Dukakis won, that Gore didn't.

[DoNotRefill]

38. Actually, I was referring to his FOID plan...

that's what I think pissed off a LOT of voters...and cost him the election.

[Loyal]

9. To put this in perspective,

Robert Byrd won EVERY SINGLE county in WV in 2000. I believe he won EVERY SINGLE PRECINCT save 4. That is incredible. He got 78% of the vote, and in some counties he got 90%+ of the vote. But this has nothing to do with Gore. Robert Byrd is God in West Virginia. If you've ever been there, bridges, elementary schools, fire stations, and everything else that can possibly be named is named Robert Byrd something or other. I don't know about the airport but it is probably named Robert Byrd airport too. Robert Byrd is the KING of pork, and he has brought billions of dollars to this perennially poor state. He is beloved by his almost 2 million constituents and is the real conscience of the Senate. Hear this: If you have Robert Byrd campaigning with the Democratic nominee in 2004, and we lay off the gun issue, we will carry West Virginia in a literal landslide. 60%+, I guarantee it. You have no idea of the power of Robert Byrd. ;-)

[laruemtt]

18. yeah, we do love him here!

we have some of the best kept interstates i've ever seen because of him. love ya, Senator Byrd! :loveya:

[Noordam]

49. PORK >>>>>>>>> LOL

:evilgrin:

[LynneSin]

25. ACK!!! If it was 78% that Byrd won by than WV is a bigger problem

that we need to consider.

I mean, 78% of the state swears by democrat Robert Byrd. Add to that another democratic senator, I believe more democratic house members than repuke and correct me if I'm wrong - a democratic governor and I ask this simple question:

How the hell did Al Gore lose West Virginia in 2000

I mean, if all Al had to do was go campaigning next to West Virginia's favorite guy Robert Byrd, then we should have overwhelmingly won West Virginia over Bush.

And to think we still blame Ralph Nadar.

[Loyal]

30. LYNNESIN:

GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!

DID I MAKE MY POINT? :P GUNS WERE THE ONLY REASON HE LOST! Oh, that and it seemed he cared more about global warming than he did about the unions in WV.

[onecitizen]

44. I know you can't believe this but...........

it was the gun issue!! Bush people had the guys convinced that Gore would go door to door and remove their firearms. I'm not kidding here. I guess you gotta live here to understand this (I hate guns cause I'm a trauma nurse and see each weekend what guns and alcohol do to people). AND they thought Gore just didn't care about their issues. Bush was in WV time and time again. If it wasn't him personally, then Cheney or Mama or Daddy. BTW, they STILL are coming here for some reason not known to me or others. But it was the gun thing. Count on it! And if the Dem candidate doesn't fix it this time round, the same thing will happen in '04.

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. In rural America, guns are a bigger issue

than abortion or anything else and the NRA was very effective in convincing people that all liberal democrats want to take away their guns.

We need to do a better job addressing this issue and reversing the bs that people have been lead to believe.

[AP]

17. I bet it was close enought that union support would have made a difference

Also, it's a question of where your heart is.

Why didn't Gore stick environmentalism under the umbrella of middle and working class political and economic power.

[ThomWV]

19. WV

I am a Union Member, I work in Morgantown, WV, and I live in a considerably poorer county to the east of there.

Al Gore lost this state on one issue and one issue only, gun control. Make absolutly no mistake about that. The shame of it all is that at the Presidential level gun control is pures bull shit, it is, as Wesley Clark so correctly points out a local issue. It is absurd to think that the same gun control laws would be appropriate in Los Angles or Miami as would be in Morgantown just as it would for Casper, Wyoming and New York City. If Gore would have had the sense to point that out and make it the true non-issue that it really is he would have won this state easily.

Thom (Masontown, WV)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. what about the mining/environmental issues?

I would think that is much more germane, I just can't imagine the non -federal gun issue would outweigh it.
Also, what did Bush do in WV re: campainging and tailoring a message for it?

[laruemtt]

26. the only reason * gives

a shit at all about wv is they have their shadow government set up under the Greenbrier. it sickens me to think they are using our beautiful mountains for such nefarious purposes. that's some primo mountain biking land. i lived out in colorado springs in the 70s and felt the same way about cheyenne mountain - such beautiful sacred land - how dare they? did i mention i hate them?

[ThomWV]

28. Nothing

Bush did nothing, and that was good enough. Remember, the cry out here in the country was the Gore was gonna take away our guns. Bush did not have to say he would protect you from anyone, only that he would leave gun control exactly were it was the day he took office. He would do nothing, have no policy, just let it go. And that was good enough.

As for the environment as a local issue here? Not a chance. Timbering and mining are part of the fabric of life. Everyone knows someone who has a dozer if you need it, and yeah, we all love the outdoors and to hunt and fish, but still .... and that's that for the environment.

Thom

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. "Timbering and mining are part of the fabric of life"

SO that would make Gore (one of the greenest Dem candidates by far) a threat to the fabric of life there.
I'd say that answers my question.

[ThomWV]

31. I Think You Missed What I Meant

What I meant by that is that threats to the environment are an everyday part of life here but that doesn't mean for a second that the people don't appreciate those folks who find it important. Its just that we expect the exploitation and don't mind to much to tell the truth.

This is a place where no one wants to be told what they can and can not do on their own property, and 'yeah, we love nature and all of that too. We don't much like the tree huggers, that you can bet on and anyone like them who wants to take our guns too.' That is the sort of mentality I'm talking about. A percieved threat to their guns is as good as one to their property. No kidding. Its what killed Gore and the unions weren't doing anything active to promote Gore either. By the way, Byrd, who is generally well thought of didn't do a damned thing to support Gore in this state and neither did Rockefeller. I blame Gore loosing almost as much to them as I do to Gore himself.

Thom

[NewYorkerfromMass]

32. Neither Byrd nor Rockefeller helped?

THAT is depressing!

[cap]

33. environmental issues do matter to people in WV

when you talk about the floods caused by clear cutting the mountain tops, you get a lot of pro-environmental talk.

Gays are a funny issue though. You got the Bible Belt; but there are also more gays in WV than what you think. I grew up in Cumberland MD right outside WV and there are more guys in my high school class than you'd imagine who'd turn gay. When I first heard so-and-so and so-and-so are gay and then even more turnin' gay, I about fell out of my chair.

The issues of gay and environment can be spun to be elitist issues or they can be made down to earth concerns of the people in this area. It depends on how you present it.

[DonP]

39. My humble .02

The "gun issue" is grossly underestimated by many people as a litmus test in many areas for candidates.

People feel as strongly about gun ownership (not hunting, but gun ownership. It isn't about hunting for most of us and it isn't about the NRA that most of us don't belong to anyway) as they do about a woman's right to choose.

If you choose to make fun of those feelings or belittle them as some DU folks do frequently here, you are going to motivate some folks to say, "the hell with it, I'll stay home".

An estimated 80 million American's own guns and about 3 or 4 million belong to the NRA and pay dues. But Sara Brady has, at best, several thousand dues paying members and the party seems to bend over backwards to cater to their point of view and it has cost us dearly in the last three election cycles.

I'm a lifelong Democrat and a gun owner (The two are not mutually exclusive - surprise!), and target shooter. I have been told frequently and regularly in these forums that I can't be a "Real" Democrat unless I embrace the version of gun control, as defined by two sad sack Republicans, Jim and Sara Brady.

Gun control is a very hot topic for many of us and the Republicans have done a great job, aided by some of our own vocal True Believer Democratic friends in painting us as "the gun grabber" party. I believe that is what happened in WV (as well as AR and several other states) and it will happen again if some folks don't wake up.

Don P.

[HFishbine]

27. Where's mining counrty?

I ask because Gore carried the counties in the south western part of the state:



(Gore in red)

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

50. the southwest

as you can see, the environment din't hurt gore there at all.

it was the eastern panhandle that really did him in (and broke up wv's all democrat congressional delegation w/ the daughter of a felon and wife of a drug addict - gop congresswoman shelly moore capito

[corarose]

36. How can a Rethug win in WV with Mountain Top Mining?

They are blowing the tops off of the mountains to make money.

It's called stealing elections and WV was no different then anywhere else.
They ripped WV off big time.

[ShaneGR]

37. Gore lost WV because of guns

Nothing more, nothing less. A lot of regular Dem voters abandoned Gore because of the gun issue.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

40. main reason gore lost wv

is he took it for granted that wv always goes democratic. he waited to long to come here, and more importantly, didn't respond to bush's repeated visits and attacks that gore would 'take yer guns from yew'. he let bush define him early on and did nothing to counter it until it was tooo late.

looks like the democrats are doing it again in '04 as they're not even bothering to run an opposition candidate to shelly moore capito, a gop congress member who only has lukewarm support and only won her seat in the first place because of an extremely weak democrat

on a bright note, huntington, the 2nd largest city in the state is helping to lead the way in the fight against the PATRIOT Act.

as i've detailed here:
http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=533889

[Noordam]

46. Bingo and ran away from the economy of Clinton.nt

[doc03]

52. Why Gore lost WV

In the northern panhandle the number one reason was Clinton and
Gore promissed in 1992 to stop unfair steel imports. Then they
passed NAFTA and when the asian economies calapsed they let the asian
countries and former soviet states dump steel in the US at 1/2 our
production costs. In the rest of the state it was Gore's envirenmental policies and of course guns.

[TKP]

41. Reply

I just saw this copy of my former posting and didn't expect it. My, my, my.

I'm not from WV, so I won't suppose to know more about what happened than the residents. I certainly understand the gun issue and how that could play a part.

Suffice it to say that the Republican Party has been courting my firend's father and several other union bigshots since 2000. Will he switch? No way!! Not from how he talked. But they are able to talk to him on a level the Democratic leadership in D.C. won't simply because they don't have the social "special interests" banner hanging over their head, the things he expressingly despised.

IMHO, in a true political sense, and I do mean ONLY in a true political sense, the Democratic party could easily take back the White House and Congress. The formula is this:

- Talk up being the Party of the working class
- Don't cater to environmentalist, gay rights, NOW, AA, or any social programs.

You automatically get back the South and the unions, the people who are more socially liberal would likely stay Democratic anyway (you've got your Greens, but they regard Democrats as right-wing corporate lovers anyway, and you may lose a few Democrats over to them). And I say that simply because the only other choice is to let the country go Republican again, so they would in all likelihood hold their noses and vote Democrat.

I could be wrong. My wife often points out that I am. HA!

I'm NOT saying it would be the right thing to do, nor am I even suggesting it be done, but it in all likelihood would work. Again, IMHO, it's the social issues that have killed us over the years. I'll echo AP, we haven't prioritized. The big question remains as to how we address these social issues which have caused so many to cross over and build that bridge back to the Democratic Party.

I hope I haven't started another thread. I'm just talking out-loud and interested in others viewpoints as well as encouragement and critisism of my own postings. There's an answer out there we can all generally agree with, we just need to find that common ground.

Peace.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

42. agree w/ you for the most part

except here:
- Don't cater to environmentalist

--there's a way to do this and not turn off voters. poll after poll shows that americans care about this issue. only the backwoods types in the gop who have yet to admit that copernicus was right have a beef w/ environmentalists

for instance, in wv, we have to deal w/ mountaintop removal, a horribly destructive mining method. 2 papers in the state did a poll to see if if w. virginians wanted to have it regulated. surprisingly, a majority wanted an outright ban on the practice, despite a media blitz ny the coal companies trying to tell us that mtr was fine for the environment.

democrats just need to hammer home the point that protecting the environment and having jobs are not mutually excusive.

[Noordam]

48. Look at the Right Wing Tampa Tribune......EXCEPT for one

issue and that is the environment. In Florida people care about the environment. So even the Right Wingers are pro-environment.

[rucky]

43. You're right...except for one thing

This is how we'll get the Green-leaners like myself to STAY in the party. If you're for working people, you're against corporations. I didn't make it that way, the corporations did. You take away corporate influence, and suddenly the environment improves, the economy improves...people become more welcoming to social change. You don't have to say you're socially liberal...and you certainly don't have to say that you are, either.

Class war, baby....everything else will fall into place. If the nominee dares to utter that phrase, they've just picked up tens of thousands of votes from people who gave up on voting. Kuch, Ho-Ho and the Rev get it.

[Samantha]

51. Gore didn't go to West Virginia because he knew it was a lost cause

He chose instead to spend more time in critical states where he felt he had a chance, i.e, Florida.

When on election night the results were being revealed:

"West Virginia comes on the screen. A state that has gone for Republican presidential candidates only three times in eighty years --all three times when the Republican in question was the incumbent president -- is a solid Bush win.

"That's my fault," Clinton says, turning to chief of staff John Podesta. The environmentally friendly strip-mining policies Clinton pushed fostered resentment for Gore among the coal-mining community. 'That policy screwed him,' Clinton says."

reported by Jake Tapper, in "Down and Dirty" at page 25.

Gore had private professional pollsters who told him which states were already lost and which states could be salvaged. Thus, he made the logical choice to expend as much time and money as possible to pull off Florida. There was nothing to be gained from West Virginia.

[doc03]

53. Gore in 2000

All the Republicans did in 2000 was play the tape of Clinton and Gore
in Weirton in 1992 promissing to stop the illegal steel dumping over and over. It worked in 2000 and I think WV is a lost cause in 2004 also. Just ask any steelworker and he will say Clinton passed NAFTA and Bush imposed the steel tarrifs that Clinton had failed to do.