Kerry waffles on the importance of military service in running for prez

[pruner]

Dean blasts Kerry on Vietnam
Senator retorts that combat gives him executive gravitas

By Sam Dealey

Howard Dean’s presidential campaign sharply criticized Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) yesterday for seemingly flip-flopping on the importance of serving in Vietnam in presidential politics.

Kerry seeks to distinguish himself from his White House rivals — both Democratic and Republican — by drawing attention to his war record. But this emphasis stands in marked contrast to his past utterances about service in Vietnam as a qualification for the highest office.

<snip>

On numerous occasions this year, Kerry cited his distinguished war record as a decisive factor in who should be the nominee. As a naval officer, Kerry earned the Silver Star, the Bronze Star with combat V, and three Purple Hearts for his service on a gunboat patrolling the Mekong.

<snip>

A decade ago, however, Kerry rose in the Senate on two separate occasions to decry presidential candidates who used their military service record as a qualification for the highest office.

<snip>

Jan Scruggs, president and founder of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, attributed Kerry’s shifting position to political expedience.

<snip>

http://www.thehill.com/news/101503/kerry.aspx

[Cha]

1. Good! I'm glad Dean is calling kerry on his crap.

[Justice]

2. They Both Look Silly

I am sorry, but this stuff just makes them all look bad. Let's talk about what is wrong with Bush - let's not take these silly pot shots at each other. Dean looks silly blasting Kerry, Kerry looks silly shifting his position.

[blm]

3. Big difference. This is post 9-11 with a chickenhawk in charge of

a much more dangerous world who is actively increasing the danger, and it WILL be an issue. To ignore that is absurd. To capitalize on it is EXACTLY what must be done.

btw...the one thing Clinton said he would do if he could do his life over is to serve in Vietnam. Does that make him a waffler, or someone MORE cognizant of the pressures of the presidency and the moral authority it requires?

[diamond14]

5. Kerry/Clark can beat bush*/cheney (or whoever the Carlyle group

chooses during the upcoming nixon shuffle....)

bring on the military experience...this Iraqi war mess is shrub's only claim to leadership and shrub is claiming military leadership....time to pull out the BIG guys..the guys who chose to serve the USA and got BIG TIME MEDALs for their valor....

the country must fully understand the chickenhawks that bush*/cheney really are...and that can only be done by VIETNAM SOLDIERS with major MEDALS....

[Cha]

4. kerry is out there spreading Lies about Dean

and Dean calls him on something important that's True.

I don't think it makes Dean look "silly"..

And in case you haven't heard there is plenty of bush bashing with the truth..so much so that the moderator of the last "debate forum" told the Dems not the bash the president(sic)..

She had no damn business doing it but she did.

[Justice]

9. Dean Does Not Look Good Calling Kerry on This

Yes, in my view, Dean looks silly because his objection highlights his lack of military experience (I understand he had a deferment, but still no military service) and he is basically saying - Kerry has said before that military service wasn't necessary but now he is saying it is - how is that good for Dean?

Because guess what - it matters more than it did before. I agree that post 9/11 and post AWOL Bush it matters alot more than it ever did. I think Kerry looks silly because he is not able to articulate that fact as well as a DU poster just did.

Dean keeps what I perceive as a negative for him in the spotlight - that is why he looks silly.

[CWebster]

10. So what

Strutting around the world like we are the biggest military dick on the block has won us no friends, caused hate and resent to grow against us, increased the threat of terrorism and decreased our domestic security.

Why would anyone want to brag about it?

[Justice]

13. Because Lots of Countries Depend on Our Military Might

The military dick-like attitude has occurred with Bush's adminstration - and comes from a bunch of chickenhawks not military men.

A Democratic adminstration with a president with military experience will NOT be the same. That's the point. That is worth bragging about.

[IndianaGreen]

21. The military thingy is way overblown in its importance

the only people that are easily impressed by it are those that never served in uniform.

The fact that Kerry voted for a Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which is what the Iraq war resolution was, tells volumes as to how insignificant combat experience is when it comes to "executive gravitas," otherwise Kerry would have voted against war!

[Justice]

29. Overblown in Who's Mind? Not Average Joe Voter

The military "thingy" is an issue - like it or not, try to swat it away or not, slap at it or not, insult or not - it is not I repeat not going away.

You are completely out of sync with the average american voter if you think the military "thingy" is not front and center on people's minds.

What impresses me about Clark is that he seems least likely to use military force, because of what he has seen.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. the bottom line is service is a plus

it's not a requisite or disqualifier in any way, but it is indeed a plus because of the added perspective and in Kerry's case the additional opportunity to show leadership and valor.

[JohnKleeb]

7. that it is, I agree with it

[CWebster]

12. and for the life of me it cofounds me why you adore Kucinich so

It isn't what he stands for or, rather, stands against.

[blm]

15. You don't know Dennis. Dennis WANTED to serve.

Dennis' heart may be a mystery to some, but, it's filled with the same love of country that couldn't bear to see the flag burned. It comes from an enormous love and respect for his constituency. What matters to them MATTERS to Dennis.

[JohnKleeb]

19. and his brothers and father too did seve

[JohnKleeb]

18. I can respect those who serve in the military Webster

He doesnt have a problem with people in the military. I say it can be a boost and thats true. Whats your problem I am just confirming that is true. I prefer Kucinich.

[Cha]

8. "Service and Valor" aren't just shown on some damn battelfield

in a bogus war.

[Justice]

11. Service and Valor - Some Candidates Have It Some Don't

Some candidates have it, some don't. The fact is Howard Dean doesn't have military service and no pot shot at other Democratic candidates is going to change that.

If Dean wins the nomination, his lack of military experience will be a challenge for Democrats. How do we challenge Bush's lack of military service and the resulting chaos he has created for us -- and convince voters to believe that Dean has the vision to lead us out of this chaos.

Edit: add word to

[CWebster]

14. Where did this fucking military aduluation come from?

Military service is no measure of a good man. War is brutal, it is barbaric, it causes almost incomprehensible human suffering and loss. It destroys civilization, it destroys families, it is bleak and ugly and causes decent men to act as animals. It poisons the environment, and causes severe physical and emotional damage. Kerry enlisted in a unpopular war and when he returned home he spoke against it, he admited that burning villages was an everyday occurence, and he led people to believe that it was his own medals dropped over the wall in protest.

Now his pompous chest if forever puffed with self-impressed bravado, and his tune has changed to one of pride of participation in an ugly and unjust war. Turns out they were someone else's medals he dropped over the wall--his own hang on his own wall.

Other counties, wartorn and suffering the ravages of war, structured their futures to address human needs. The US whimpers like a spoiled bully when it is hit once and lashes out at the world with guns pointed in all directions.

[Justice]

16. Big Sigh

Yes, war is very very bad. You said -- "The US whimpers like a spoiled bully when it is hit once and lashes out at the world with guns pointed in all directions." Ouch, we were hit pretty badily by 9/11 - don't minimize it!

This reaction to 9/11 is the reaction of the Bush adminstration. Lashing out at the world is Bush's reaction. He has no idea what the cost of war is on a country, a town, a business or a family. A democratic president would have a drastically different approach.

That said, I do think 9/11 changed us forever (or at least the foreseeable future). We need a leader with experience in military affairs and in diplomacy - who can help us work with other nations to bring about peace - - but allow us to negotiate from a position of strength. Wes Clark has not only the military experience, but the experience of working with other countries toward diplomatic solutions. John Kerry has military experience and years on the Senate. Howard Dean is a great man - but he does lack military experience. That is the point - you may not think military experience is important - but I do, and so do lots and lots of voters.

[CWebster]

24. 911 was nothing

compared to the entire generation Russian lost in WW2.

Ever notice the irony in the macho claim that the Right is so reasonable, unemotional and rational, when it is they who are always spearheading hotheated nationalistic war frenzies? War is the domain of men driven by testosterone - and they accuse women of being hysterical victims of hormones.

[Justice]

30. 911 Was Everything

to the average american living today. Not sure many voters are looking back at russia and WW2.

[CWebster]

34. 911 was exploited by the Right

to drum up war fever and maintain the moron's war time status so the junta could continue their attack on the environment, the economy and loot the treasury for their class at the expense of the country. So why aren't the Democrats reponding to the polls that indicate most Americans view the country on the wrong path rather than having dick comparison contests with Bush?

[Justice]

42. 911 Was Exploited by The Right, But It Was a Huge Event

911 was a wake up call to US, we have just completely screwed up our response for the last 2 years. The right has exploited 911. The democrats have gone along/not protested enough because they have been bullied by the right.

But 911 was a huge event in American history, world history.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. I don't look at Kerry's service as some macho military junket

but rather as sevice. Period. Albeit a service whereby one puts their life in the balance for their country.

[Eloriel]

38. Ahhh, but he does.

And that makes all the difference.

Eloriel

[NewYorkerfromMass]

44. Do you have proof?

for that very subjective opinion?

[Cha]

17. Because Dean Does have the "vision" to Lead us.

So ..we're not going to have to "sell" it! It's there for anyone to see with their own eyes and mind.

[Justice]

22. Let's All Keep Our Eyes and Minds Open - Shall We?

Whether Dean has the vision to lead us (with or without quotes) remains to be seen. His lack of military experience in this day in age is an issue - that's all I am saying.

Every candidate (including Bush) is doing a whole lotta' selling so let's not pretend otherwise.

[union_maid]

23. Waffles - let's leave them on the breakfast table

I was sick of that word years ago and I'd love to see it gone, gone, gone. Kerry's not my guy, but he's not waffling here. He's responding to a vastly different set of circumstances. Military experience has never been more to the point, since we've got an administration without any of that and they've screwed up our foreign policy in ways we would have been hard put to imagine a few years ago. In the past, military experience wasn't the issue it is now, so Kerry was correct then, and he's correct now.

[CWebster]

25. Why

Why does enlisting in a unjust war and eventually protesting it and then supporting a--a manufactured invasion require military service to lend some sort of authority or credibility?

You know, you people must be young and painfully naive. Obviously you did not learn the lesson of Viet Nam and you have not had educations that instilled in you a greater awareness of the human cost of war. Were you born yesterday? Do you think of 911 as a call to arms? Will every generation have to learn the hard way?

[Justice]

32. 911 Is a Reality

That people today live with - not a call to arms, but an end to life as we knew it and the beginning of a different life. Not a call to arms, but a call to greater discussion, diplomacy and interaction - but from a position of strength and inclusion. Again, in case you missed it, not a call to arms.

[union_maid]

36. Young? I'm 53.

And was against the war in Vietnam, but we're talking about now, not then and it's a very different ballgame. 911 wasn't necessarily a call to arms, but it sure as hell was a call to some national security and foreign policy smarts and we didn't get that from the Bushies. It would behoove us to offer the country a real solid alternative. A huge point in our favor in the general election is how an administration with no one with actual military experience in the decision making loop made bad judgements over and over. Also, they either lied or were unable to understand the intelligence they received. We kind of lose those advantages if we field a candidate without relevent experience ourselves.

[CWebster]

40. A general observation

So,if you thought the Republicans screwed up in Viet Nam what we needed was a Democrat with some military medals to show the way?

The threat of terorism is never resolved by manipulating the population with fear. The whole war on terrorism is a farce- no generals, no armies, no brave men of valor are going to stop someone with a razor blade on a mission from god. In fact, military aggressiveness is often the cause of terrorism, rather than any solution. Notice how the military general at the helm in Israel has only inflamed the situation?

The terrorists listed their grievances--it was no mystery-- US military stationed in the Holy Land of Islam, the punitive iraqi sanctions, the situation in Israel.

All through the build-up to this Invasion, all we heard and saw were retired Generals and military men and they were not only wrong but their influence is creeping into our acceptance of the norm. People recognise and object to the corporate(industrial) dimension, when do you think they will wise up to the encroaching militarization of our culture?

[George_Bonanza]

41. Would you be happier if Kerry dodged the draft?

Remember that Dean would've gone to 'Nam too if his back wasn't bothering him. Oh, what an IDIOT for not being able to see what Vietnam was going to turn out like 30 years later!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. Interesting how the Dean supporters ignore this issue

as if it will go away or something if they do.

[CWebster]

27. What that Dean is a healer and not a warrior?

Who is ignoring what?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

31. Good grief now THAT'S spin!

I don't think the warrior loving public will buy that in the general election. And yes this is a warrior loving land we live in.

[CWebster]

35. Right-wing talking points

Amazing how many so-called Democrats buy into them.

Bush had to lie out of every orifice to sell this war and still the majority of Americans supported his fantasy, only with a multilateral force and the UN. It was only after they sent in the troops that everyone rallied in support of the troops. Amazing how many bought that garbage too.

[pruner]

28. interesting how Clarkies ignore his lack of domestic governance experience

n/t

[Justice]

33. And When All Else Fails, Change the Subject

nice, but unsuccessful, try.

Dean's lack of military and foreign policy experience is an issue that he has to deal with in a convincing manner. Otherwise, he is just a much smarter version of Bush (coming in as governor).

[DemBones DemBones]

39. And we must remember that Bush* did serve in the Texas Air

National Guard and became a pilot. We know the stories about him refusing to submit to a drug test and being grounded, about him not showing up for drills for the last year and a half of his hitch. But most people don't know those stories -- and some believe that he was a fighter pilot in Viet Nam!

So Bush* has some military experience, albeit of the Weekend Warrior sort. That gives him an edge over everyone but Clark and Kerry, an edge with any voters concerned that military experience is needed for leading the country today. How widespread is that concern? I don't claim to know. Probably a good bit more widespread than it was prior to 9-11.

[blm]

43. That's it in a nutshell....we don't LIKE that it's the way it is

but, it's foolish to pretend that it doesn't matter with the American electorate since 9-11.

[Octafish]

37. Sen. Kerry was proven a leader in combat.

As a civilian, he was under fire, as well. And John Kerry helped lead the loyal opposition to the war in Vietnam.

As a Massachusetts state prosecutor, Kerry went after the Mafia big wigs. And, as a Senator, Kerry went after the crooks in government and big business. And Kerry's been a Liberal Democrat the whole 16 years he's been there, a real "Democrat from the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party."

So, it's easy to understand why supporters of other candidates don't like it when Sen. Kerry brings up his leadership credentials. My main question is why, if these same people call themselves Democrats, they would use up so much bandwidth criticizing the candidate with the best chance of getting rid of Bush. Are they "Green" with envy?