Has anyone here ever had their mind changed about an issue after reading

[AP]

something posted at DU, or do we all come here with our opinions firmly in place?

If you've changed your mind, what was the issue and which side did you decide was the right side of the issue?

I don't mean, just, about which issues did you become enlightened. I'm curious about issues about which you felt one way before you came to DU, and you felt a different way after arguing about it here.

I don't know if the people who used to oppose Chavez are still around, but I think postings on Venezuela have changed 180 degrees.

Personally, I argued against a wealth tax once, but now I sort of see the value of at least having a one-time wealth tax to undo the incredible shift in wealth caused by a dramatically, increasingly regressive tax code. I doubt that it could ever become policy, but I definitely see the economic advantages.

[Clete]

1. I have found that most DU'ers and I think alike

except about the privitization of Social Security. I won't change my mind on this but I hope I can change some minds because my experience has borne out that it can't work. Social Security shouldn't be privitized ever.

[sendero]

8. I've learned a lot here...

... and by the way, I'm against the privatization of SS also.

SS is working pretty much as it was designed, as a pay-as-you-go system. Yes, the people who instituted it made out like bandits, they contributed way less than they took, but that is water under the bridge and cannot be corrected now.

Make no mistake about it, the folks who are pushing to privatize SS simply want to dismantle it any way they can. They are not even subtle about their eventual aim.

[Clete]

10. Let me explain something to you.

In today's money, you would pay a maximum of 15% of $80,000 or $12,000 a year split between you and your employer, so you basically pay 7.5% or $7,500. Of course if you make less, you pay less. $12,000 is an average Social Security payment to an old geezer, maybe your own grandfather or grandmother. So what is so bad about that?

When you retire $12,000 won't be worth what it is today so you will of course get more money, no doubt paid by your grandchild in the future dollar value of that day. If you privitize a portion of it, the value becomes that of the day you saved it. If the economy goes sour or you make bad investment decisions, you may not have anything to retire on then. Rampant inflation could also make your savings worthless. There are other programs for investing like IRAs for instance.

[JohnKleeb]

20. Most people think it should be privitized if nesscary

I dont think it should either.

[stevedeshazer]

2. Yes,

I too did not know about Hugo Chavez and Venezuela until I learned more here at DU.

I also refused to believe that LIHOP/MIHOP were possibilities, but I believe it now.

But overall, I'd say that a lot of what I have learned here in the last two years plus is stuff I wouldn't have known about otherwise.

A lot of posters here do come in with preconceived ideas, just as I have, but what good is all this information and discourse if you don't approach it with an open mind and a good bullshit detector?

Good question, AP.

[Walt Starr]

3. I've changed my mind several times

Always open to new information. I guess I take the scientific method to an extreme because I'm always re-evaluating opinions based upon new information

[AP]

5. What issues did you change your mind about?

I'm very interested in knowing which debates were productive, and which issues were the ones about which people were willing to change their minds.

[LittleApple81]

7. For example, today in the pledge of allegiance thread...

somebody gave an argument about the government having to swear allegiance to the people and not the reverse.
I was not totally against the pledge but now I am.

[laura888]

4. Yes - the latest posts about Pat Buchanan

I had not known of his past comments. DU posters educated me.

[LTR]

6. What I learned at DU

Learned a great deal about BBV.

After the fiasco of '00, I thought there had to be a better way.

Then I learned what a bunch of scumbags the friendly folks at Diebold are. Am I the only one who thinks it's wrong to promote an electronic voting system and be a die-hard and outspoken Republican supporter?

Didn't think so.

Welcome to Neocon America.

[bpilgrim]

9. hmmmm...

i used to think our yugo 'intervention' - bombing - wasn't a war crime... well now i certainly have my doubts.

:hi:

peace

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Two Big Ones, Thanks to IG

I used to think that there weren't many civilian casualties in Afghanistan. I now understand that there were more civilian casualties in Afghanistan than there were in on 9/11.

I used to think Barak's final offer to Arafat was pretty damn good, and that Arafat was just being greedy. I now understand that the offer was still pretty weak. I still fault Arafat in certain ways during that negotiation, but my view of it is much more tempered.

There are others, too.

DTH

[LWolf]

12. Broadened.

I don't know about change; but my perspective has been broadened by considering new information and other points of view.

Just one example:

I was debating with a DUer about voting for your choice or for the more "electable." The more we talked, the more I realized it was a "big picture vs details" debate. To this poster, sticking to my candidate was the "little picture;" I would be more successful promoting my issues if I picked someone who, even if they weren't as close, had a better chance to be elected and get some of them accomplished.

I thought about this pretty carefully, and appreciated the point. In the end, I took it even further; an even "bigger" picture. Beyond winning the next election, and then the next, and to winning the direction we are going back from the conservatives. And to voting for that direction, to move the country in the long run...

This doesn't sound very coherent; I'm tired and it's been a long day. But it's the most recent example I can remember.

[AP]

22. Read this:

It's from an article which tries to convince liberterians to vote for Dean, but I think it makes the broader point reasonably well.

Of course, it might be objected that the natural candidate for a libertarian to support is, well, the Libertarian. And if one is voting largely for personal satisfaction, that may make a certain amount of sense. Yet people's actual voting behavior indicates that our actual motives in the ballot box are more complex. If you were really going to vote on pure principle, you probably wouldn't vote for any party's candidate, since those candidates are always represent some amount of compromise. Instead, you'd just write in the name of the person you'd most like to see hold the office.

If, on the other hand, you were following a strict Kantian categorical imperative, voting because you believe one ought to act as you would have everyone act... well, you'd do exactly the same thing. In reality, we usually act as quasi-Kantians, imagining ourselves as representatives, not of rational humanity as a whole, but of a cohort of somewhat like-minded folks who aren't going to agree on everything. The individual libertarian voter, then, ought to act according to the maxim that he would have the set of American libertarians obey.

If we take a sufficiently long view, it could be argued that voting Libertarian "sends a message" about the electorate's policy preferences. And that may be. But the message we send is proportioned to the threat we pose. Because of our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting system, the reality is that Ds and Rs are going to be the only live contenders for the foreseeable future. When libertarians as a group defect from the GOP to the Democrats (or vice-versa), our threat power is effectively doubled: each of us counts both as a vote lost to one candidate and a vote gained for the other. In close elections, a willingness to coalition jump may make the libertarian swing vote enough of a prize that candidates become, at the least, afraid of alienating us too severely.

http://www.reason.com/links/links101403.shtml

[LWolf]

25. Interesting, as well.

Of course, I am supporting a dem, and I don't see him defecting!
And in the general election, there is no question that I will support the dem no matter who; evicting * is certainly a high priority.

[jbm]

13. I changed my mind...

on some of the gun control issues. I'm not certain what percentage of that change can be attributed to DU,and what percentage to the changing times,but it was definitely a combination of both forces. I still don't see a membership to the NRA in my future though...

DU has given me more confidence in my beliefs. I live in a primarily conservative area,and I used to waste a lot of energy trying to figure out where these people were coming from...I figured I MUST be missing something. It was a wonderful day when I accepted that it wasn't 'something I just wasn't getting" it was them..lol.

[0rganism]

14. I've become a lot more tolerant of Democratic moderates

Prior to lurking and posting here, I had a lot of resentment about NAFTA, telecom deregulation, the destruction of welfare "as we know it", and so on. However, now I understand a bit more of the pragmatism and confusion that's behind some of these things. I still think they're mistakes, but I have more compassion for those who made them.

[BeFree]

17. None of us are so wise as to never make mistakes

The beauty of DU is that it gives us an opportunity to refine and perfect our reasonings.

The communication DU inspires will lead to a much better, and more complete understanding, of, by, and for our country, no doubt. It already has.

[Skittles]

15. the thread about outing a gay politician who votes against gay issues

I didn't change my mind, but a lot of gay DUers made me realize the issue was much more complex than I realized.

[blkgrl]

16. I've changed my views on a few things, but the problem is that

a lot of times, when you post a different opinion here, some people don't intelligently explain the other side, instead, they go into attack mode.

If I'm wrong on an issue, I'd like to hear good reasons for why I'm wrong on that issue and not questions/attacks on if I'm really black, or really a Democrat.

[Pale Blue Dot]

18. I came here with my opinions pretty fully formed.

My problem in the past was not a lack of knowledge or a lack of opinions, but the lack of people to share and discuss them with. So while a would say that DU has changed my mind about very little, it has given me a lot of material and support with respect to those positions.

[AP]

19. Interesting. Lots of enlightenment. Little changing of minds.

And there are many differences of opinion here.

[DemExpat]

33. Enlightened is right, AP!

I learned a lot about immigration issues in discussions that you often took part in - particularly I do try to be more aware of how media portrays an issue. But my mind has not been changed, only opened to other viewpoints and possibilities.

I would bet that DU has helped me consolidate my ideas - by seeing so many viewpoints and contradicting opinions I have been able to make my ideas/feelings more clear to myself....That's a good thing too.

DU has shown me too how/why people have come to different conclusions about an issue....something I didn't understand very well until this disucssion board.

I've learned from DU that I'm more moderate than I thought I was!!!!
:-)

But no, I don't think that discussions here often change people's minds, but they probably (hopefully) lead to more understanding and possibility for compromise and cooperation in the world.

:hi:

DemEx

[Eloriel]

21. I've wised up about a lot of things

In fact, just making a quick mental assessment, what I've learned here at DU is just incredible.

To a large extent, for me it's not so much a matter of having changed my mind about most things, as growing enormously in my overall understanding of "the way things are."

I've changed my mind about Bill Clinton. Someday I'm going to go back and look at some of that Mena, Arkansas, stuff.

I've changed my mind (really, again, more like "grown" in my understanding) of Israel/Palestine issues (does the name Rachel Corrie ring a bell?).

I've changed my mind about the CIA -- not so much because of DU but because of the news lately -- they're apparently not ALL bad. Apparently there are some real decent human beings working for that agency. (Well, actually, I can credit Matcom and his dad for some of that change of mind.)

I've changed my mind about "conspiracy theories" in general. This is definitely due to DU. These days I would NOT automatically reject very much out of hand at all. I might not buy it automatically, but I'd be disinclined to reject it flat. I'd say, "Hmmm, that's interesting. I might oughtta look into that some day."

Then there's a mountainload of things I've learned about: PNAC, DLC, various and sundry Bush Crime Family shenanigans, fascism in general and American fascism in particular, on and on and on.

Eloriel

[REP]

23. None Changed

But I do have more opinions now!

[diamondsoul]

24. No, not so far, but I'm a relative newbie,

I think. Some have been here since DU's inception. I just stumbled on it a few months ago, though I must say it's become a favored forum in my list. I spend more time here than I do at a board where I PAY to host one!

I'm also notorious for listening to other sides of an issue anyway, so usually once I take a stance it's because I think I have what I need to maintain that position. It doesn't mean I can't or won't change, just that so far I haven't been persuaded to do so.

And by Jeebus, I LOVE this board!!

[rasputin1952]

26. I have had my views "tweaked" a few degrees....

but I cannot say I've done a 180.

Discussions and debates here, have a way of refining one's ideology.
Since almost all of us come here as Progressives, I would find it strange for many to do a 180 degree turnaround on issues that are discussed here.

Another thing that I have discovered on this board, is that issues that I consider non-issues, (at least from my point of view), are very real issues to many others. Gun control comes to mind as an example. I have no problem with responsible people owning firearms, but I can certainly appreciate others viewpoints on this matter.

Some issues I thought had been dealt with to an extent, have come forward to show me how wrong I can be. Equal Rights is a glaring example, of what I thought was being addressed, and I have been shown, by reading many posts, that Equal Rights has barely had the surface scratched. I guess I've been fighting for Rights so long, I became encapsulated, and didn't see where I had missed so many valid points. I too, can be susceptible to disinformation. Tunnel vision is NOT an option.

I keep an open mind, and analyze all that comes across my path. I am always open to suggestions, but, like most people, I reserve the right to discard any suggestions I deem incorrect. So far, I've learned much more than I've taught, and that is the way things should be.

Thanks to all of you at DU, (even the lurking freepers), you have expanded my world in a way that I thought was impossible.

:kick: :bounce:

[Beer Snob-50]

27. By reading these forums...

I have other's ideas to ponder and then reconcile them with my own. I feel that liberals in general will listen to other's views and try to reconcile them with their own while conservatives believe it is their way or the highway.

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. Yes I have.

eom

[janekat]

29. It confirmed my suspicions about the govt. involvement in 911

Before coming here, I thought I was turning into a nutty conspiracy theorist. NOW I know it was no conspiracy - it's reality....

[curse10]

30. Not that I can think of...

but I'm pretty set in my ways :-)

[HFishbine]

31. Boring

and no concesus view on DU, but I've changed my mind about the child tax credit for middle class and wealthy families -- it shouldn't apply.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. yes..i use to support Powell...DU pointed me to many past evils this man

committed over the years re: loas/cambodia/vietnam, Nixon WH, iran/contra...i also saw for myself just what a whore for the GOP ideaology he really is re: lies and false eviedence he presented to the UN ......i always believed he was his own man and thought he was a decent person..

DU enlightened me

[GregW]

34. In some ways, DU has turned me into a political bigot

I'm a pretty easy going guy, willing to look at all sides of an argument before making up my mind. I've even twice voted for a Republican for congress, because I admired the work he was doing for the community.

That being said, after 18 months at DU I find myself launching into tirade after tirade about the Republicans, to the extent that my GF has to remind me that the belligerent intolerance I speak is EXACTLY what I criticize the Pukes for. I realize that * has been the fuel for much of this intolerance, so I find I have to constantly just chill out, and when I read an inflammatory post, just let it pass me by.

The thing I have been most surprised at was that even though I am passionately a Democrat, and passionately a liberal, I am also pro-gun and very anti-union. I expected to have my opinions changed on both issues after hanging out here for so long, but I haven't.

:shrug: