Do you support the idea of Public Schools?

[JanMichael]

Poll question: Do you support the idea of Public Schools?

One would think this question is moot...Of course DU'ers DO!...But apparently there are holes in that belief...

[JohnKleeb]

1. of course but I know what you are refering too

:shrug: I got confused too.

[JanMichael]

2. Please, if you don't, could you please explain why not.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my noggin' around this one.

[JohnKleeb]

4. I am actually kinda freaked Michael

Well as long as they support the idea and dont act like elitist snobs.

[Systematic Chaos]

3. I can't support them as they are now. No way.

I think public schools are little more than a place to send our children so they can learn conformity and have their critical thinking processes atrophied. They sucked when I went to them in the 70's and 80's IMO and they're far worse now.

Just my two cents. I'm sure many of you would disagree with that, and with good reason.

[JanMichael]

5. My reason would be that my experiances were good.

I suppose going to school in Califoria (70's) and Colorado (80's) may cloud that though.

Matter of fact I went to great Public Schools that weren't in particularly wealthy areas either.

[JohnKleeb]

6. I can tell my story too briefly

I am in them now. I doubt if we hadnt studied WWI the way we did I would have got All Quiet on the Western Front which is possibly one of my most recent all time faves, and Ive quoted from it in the past too here.

[Friar]

17. Ooh! Private Schools for All!!

No point in going through this again.

You want to "fix" the schools? Well, give the educators as much $$ as they need and leave them alone and let them fucking teach! Let all the big cheeses in the system be chosen by the educators, the real teachers. By vote, goddamnit! Not by cronyism. There's nothing that can't be resolved with common sense. But I digress.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. Well, if you're in favor of other forms of schooling I hope you're also...

...in favor of paying for those other forms out of your own pocket instead of taking everyone else's tax money in the form of vouchers.

Additionally, if Congress' feet were held to the fire to deliver proper funding to our public schools and for paying our teachers what they're really worth, the public schools would be in much better shape. Instead, we have the elitists in Congress all too willing to support the siphoning off of taxpayer money to private schools.

Just my two-cents worth.

[nemo137]

7. yeah.

i've always had very good public schools (a few years ago, we had the highest ACT scores of any public high school in the country, as well as a real focus on thinking skills.). i think that it's one thing that i wouldn't trust a for-profit corporation with.

[dofus]

8. Are public schools really that terrible?

ETS has attributed 90 percent of differences in school
performance to (in descending order):

1. Number of parents at home;
2. Number of days absent from school;
3. Number of hours spent watching TV;
4. Quality and quantity of reading matter at home;
5. Amount of homework done.

QUESTION: Which of these will ANY education reform
reform?

QUESTION #2: Oh, really?

------------------------------------------------------

America is widely regarded as having the best colleges
in the world.

That can be measured by the awards from graduate work.
These usually come in the form of big bucks from the
marketplace (ideas for biotech or high tech). It might
also come in the form of international prizes. Nobel
prizes are but one example, and America has led every
other nation in those, since the end of WWII.

America is also widely regarded as having shitty primary
and secondary schools. This is often illustrated with
some astounding anecdote, highlighting geographical or
language ignorance. It is "backed up" with questionable
stats, ranking performance on standardized tests for
several nations. No attempt is made to "normalize" for
differences in WHO might be attending school in a given
grade in a given society.

QUESTION #3: How is it possible for the students from
such "shitty" primary schools to emerge 4-8 years later
from postgraduate programs, as internationally regarded
scholars?

QUESTION #4: If you think these 2 facts are
contradictory, what SEEMS to be the hidden agenda here?

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Excellent points. About twenty years ago, the president of the

National Education Association wrote something for the NEA newsletter comparing teachers to physicians. Here's a paraphrase:

When a physician prescribes medication for a patient but the patient doesn't take it, we don't consider the physician responsible for whatever happens to the patient.

But when a teacher assigns homework and a student doesn't do it, some people want to hold the teacher accountable for the student's failure to learn.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

It also doesn't make sense to set standards and then promote all students whether or not they meet the standards. I don't like the content-based standardized tests, the ones that cover, for example, all the material covered in an entire year of studying biology or history, requiring memorization of many detailed facts but no comprehension of principles at work in living things or trends at work in history, no cause-and-effect analysis. Kids need more study of principles and more work that increases their reading comprehension and skills in writing, analytical reasoning, and math. Those are skills that will be useful in later life and they're what should be tested.

[Friar]

18. fuck testing

Kids need to be encouraged and given the tools to pursue their natural inclinations. Some people are good at words; some at math; some at machines; some at pure conceptualisation; um, you get the drift.

Tests only test the test, they don't test the testee except in a such a broad sense as to be nearly meaningless. Not everything is quantifiable, especially our human potential.

[VermontDem2004]

20. wth?

I was encouraged to do well on a test and when I did well I was happy for myself when I didn't I wasn't happy for myself. Keep testing!

[Atlant]

27. Testing as a diagnostic is fine.

Testing as a diagnostic (to tell you what you still need to learn
more about) is fine. Testing as the goal in-and-of-itself is ludicrous.

Atlant

[LWolf]

22. Truth!

Your teachers know this. They are waiting for you, the voters, to inform the people legislating the tests. Our voices have been marginalized. This message must come from the rest of the population to be heard.

[xJlM]

9. With my tax dollars!

I'm a graduate of a public school, so of course I support them. I got a very good education from my school (in spite of my "best efforts") so I believe anyone else could easily do as well.

[Loyal]

11. I support public schools,

locally funded.

[FDRrocks]

12. Yes, minus the state requirements.

I was never taught anything past WW2 in my history classes.

The teachers need to teach, outside of the state, of course this centrist-right world supports state requirements on education.... because they love propaganda. They JUST LOVE IT.

In my world, everyone would be homeschooled, and if the liberals wanted to win they would just have more sex. :)

[ulysses]

13. Yes.

[GOPBasher]

14. Well I'm public school teacher

So of course I do. :)

[Piperay]

15. I support them but if I had

any children I would not send them to public school. My own personal experience with attending public school was very bad and I think if my parents hadn't taken me out and put me in private school I would have ended up dropping out as soon as I could.

On edit, I want to add that I would expect to pay myself for my choice in sending children to private school just the way my parents paid for me and my brother. I don't believe in vouchers, the public schools are there and if you don't use them than that is your choice. Money should be spent on public schools to make them the best that they can be.

[SahaleArm]

16. Equal Oppurtunity

Nothing wrong with a public school education. There's certainly room to improve, starting with better funding in areas that need it such as poor urban and rural areas.

[union_maid]

19. Public schools are fundamental to our national philosophy

That this has become a controversy is another thing that amazes me about how our country has changed so radically. Funding of public schools needs to change so that mileage doesn't vary as much as it does, but public education and if anything should be expanded so it's more widely available to post-secondary students in this day and age when a bachelor's degree is equivalent in stature and value to a high school degree a generation or so ago.

[LWolf]

21. Absolutely.

The foundation of our system is based on the will of the people, using votes to voice that will.

Without equal access to education for all citizens, you cannot expect informed, thoughtful votes.

That said, public ed has always had plenty of flaws, as all democratic organizations do. It has always had room for improvement, and always will.

Public ed is in dire straights at this moment. Please do not confuse what is going on in your local public schools right now as education. Or as the will of educators. We have literally no say. These conditions are deliberate. The more terrible the neocons can paint us, the faster they can abolish public ed and privatize it. And that is the agenda. Vouchers, corporate schools, and a class of illiterates. That class of illiterates is important; they'll vote the way they are told and they are cheap, cheap labor.

We need to hear voices lifted in outrage; not over how terrible our schools are, but over the terrible policies that have brought us to this brink.

We need to hear voices demanding change. Not privatization; not criticism of public ed itself; not vouchers. Change that will allow us to nurture our students and foster learning. That change has to start with the public; our culture needs to value learning and thinking. Not grades and test scores and programs; learning and thinking. They need to show they value it by making it a priority. With their $$$, their time, and their personal habits.

We need voices, and votes, to be raised to rescue and heal public education. And they need to be voices outside of teachers'ranks. Right now, teachers are the scapegoats, and too many voters believe that the mess public ed is in is all our fault. We need support, people. Real, strong support. The blame game needs to stop. The blame game goes on, even here at DU. It needs to stop.

[ScreamingMeemie]

24. Get rid of the MEAP here in Michigan and I'd be delighted with

public schooling. The MEAP is just another way to try and inflate home values. They pump our kids up a whole year before the test with facts and figures and are unapologetic about it, and the actual learning gets lost in the preparation. Grrrr.

[LuCifer]

28. ...and get rid of the P.o.S. "F-CAT" test here in FloriDUH too!

Goddamn you Jeb Bush, you pile of manure. I can't wait for 2006 when this chod smoker will be GONE from ruining this state. And thanks a hellalot to the anti-Janet Reno turds and their "oh but she has 'Clinton baggage' so vote McBride." Idiots. So everyone had to be stupid and didn't support her. THANKS FOR NOTHING. Now, I have to deal with TWO assholes named Bush.

[DoNotRefill]

25. While I support public schools...

I don't support MANDATING a public education for those who want a private education.

If folks want to home school or send their kids to private school, so be it, as long as they continue to pay their fair share of the public school bills. In other words, I don't support vouchers.

[blondeatlast]

26. Try this on those that oppose public schools:

Public schooling was founded by the fathers of the country so that we would have an educated citizenry when it came time to vote. They didn't want only the elitists to have a voice.

I live in Arizona, the land of the "charter school." Kids taught by teachers who sometimes didn't even graduate high school. The emphasis is strictly on discipline.

I fear for my state's future.

[NicoleM]

29. "They didn't want only the elitists to have a voice."

Ahem. No. That's why we have the electoral college--because they didn't want "the people" to screw things up. Furthermore, if they didn't want only the elitists to have a voice, why didn't they allow women and people of color to vote?

[ieoeja]

36. Product of their time.

As radical as the founding fathers were -- "Democracy? Are they insance?!?" -- I'm sure the thought that women and people of color might be capable of rational thought never even occurred to them. And had you suggested it, they would likely have looked at you the same way Europe looked at them.


Putting aside this anachronistic detour, within the historical perspective, and a simple reading of Thomas Jefferson's writings on the subject of public schooling you will see where he clearly states the purpose of the public schooling was, as the previous poster indicated, to ensure the (white male) masses could cast an educated vote. The Electoral College, etc were more about controlling mob impulse and protecting the minority (those white males who disagreed with the majority of the white males and it gets really tiring having to put in these details for people who refuse to look at things with historical perspective) from abuse by the majority.

[ieoeja]

38. Try this as well.

King George III ascended to the throne as the French-and-Indian War was coming to a conclusion. Worried by the absence of a French threat making the colonies less dependant on English power, elements within the English government pushed for removal of public funding for education in the colonies. Publicly, they claimed the public schools were no good, etc. Private correspondence made public years after the principles were safe in the graves listed their real purpose as an attempt to dumb-down the colonial populace to make them more tractable.

"All the population needs to know is 'God, King, and Country'."

[robbedvoter]

30. Clark on schools (why I support him):

For example, take the idea of
competition in
schools. OK now, what is
competition in schools?
What does it really mean? Well,
competition in
business means you have somebody
who's in a
business that has a profit motive
in it. It's measured
every quarter. If the business
doesn't keep up, the
business is going to lose revenue,
therefore it has
an incentive to restructure,
reorganize, re-plan,
re-compete and stay in business.

Schools aren't businesses. Schools
are institutions
of public service. Their job--their
product--is not
measured in terms of revenues
gained. It's
measured in terms of young lives
whose potential
can be realized. And you don't
measure that either
in terms of popularity of the
school, or in terms of
the standardized test scores in the
school. You
measure it child-by-child, in the
interaction of the
child with the teacher, the parent
with the teacher,
and the child in a larger
environment later on in life.

So when people say that competition
is-this is sort
of sloganeering, "Hey, you know,
schools need this
competition." No. I've challenged
people: Tell me
why it is that competition would
improve a school.
Most of them can't explain it. It's
just like, "Well,
competition improves everything so
therefore it
must improve schools."

If you want to improve schools,
you've got to go
inside the processes that make a
school great.
You've got to look at the teachers,
their
qualifications, their motivation,
what it is that gives
a teacher satisfaction, what it is
a teacher wants to
do in a classroom. We've got to
empower teachers.
Give them an opportunity to lead in
the classroom.
Teachers are the most important
leaders in
America. All that is lost in the
sloganeering of this
party. And the American people know
it's lost. So
you asked me to give you one thing
about this party
that's in power -- it's the sort of
doctrinaire ideology
that doesn't really understand the
country that
we're living in.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/oct0301.html#1001031244pm

--

[Tim4319]

31. I Support the Idea of public schools.

My feelings on this issue is a simple one! Instead of spending money on vouchers, and transporting students to schools outside of the communities the students currently live in, that voucher money should be reinvested into the schools that are in those communities. Those voucher dollars should go towards repairing schools, teacher workshops, up-to-date books, computers and additional school programs. It is extremely sad to go through Washington DC and see all of the neglected schools and go to the suburbs, in Maryland and Virginia and see all of the brand new schools with modern technology and college prep courses. Then to find out that some of the students that attend these schools actually live in the inner city of Washington. I think it would do the community a great deal of service if that same time and energy was spent modernizing these schools. It will give those students a chance to reinvest back into their own communities, instead of leaving their communities to attend other schools and those people in those other communities caring less about what goes on in the students home area.

That is my take on it!

[blondeatlast]

44. Exactly; well said.

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[BigEdMustapha]

32. I support the idea of public schools

but I also support the idea that you can choose to seek alternatives. I do not support vouchers - I plan to homeschool my children but I will keep happily paying my taxes to support the public schools as well.

[TKP]

33. Schools

My wife and I ended up pulling our children out of public school and putting them into private school.

When my son was in 4th grade, he was coming home with 3 & 4 hours of homework everynight. Consulting other parents, they were having the same homework problem with their kids. Upon further investigation, we finally determined that the teachers weren't teaching in school during the day, they would simply go over the math concepts (for instance), do 2 or 3 problems on the board, and then send the kids home with 30 problems for homework. They spent the majority of the day doing little workshops on social activities. My wife and I were the ones ending up doing the teaching at night. And his teacher had been named Teacher-of-the Year the previous year!

My daughter is high-functioning autistic, which the public schools are unable to address, so they just mainstream them. We found a school in our area that has shadow teachers who work one-on-one with children with learning disabilities while keeping the children in the main classroom.

Overall, I'd have to say that public schools were a failure in my circumstances. I don't know if vouchers would be a cure-all, but it would be better if we could find some way to turn the power back over to the parents as to how their money is being spent on their childrens education. There are some great teachers out there, and there are other who stink. It's like that in any occupation. But one bad year with a bad teacher can set a child back for several years to come.

[Jokerman]

34. I support public schools (and they support me)

Public school graduate and now a public school employee.

[leftofthedial]

35. I believe private and parochial schools should be abolished

Force the elitists and the superstitious to ensure that public schools are excellent. Force them to have MORE, not LESS skin in the game.

[dofus]

40. I would not like to see

private and parochial schools abolished.

My older son was being bullied in public school. We moved him to a private school, one that had a far greater emphasis on academics, and much less on sports. My son thrived.

But I don't believe in vouchers, and I don't think I should be exempt from one penny of taxes to support public schools. I'm extremely grateful I had the choice of a private school. And I live in an area with pretty good public schools.

[DoNotRefill]

42. On what possible legal grounds?

Or is this just venting?

[0rganism]

37. The Idea, yes. The current implimentation, not so very much.

There should be a free, open and effective way for children to become fully-franchised members of an educated public. And we could have a really first class system, with a little bit of reprioritization.

[Yupster]

39. Me and the Clintons

have the same view on the issue. We support public schools, just not for our kid.

[quaker bill]

41. It is the foundation of a free society

Democracy does not work without an educated public.

Niether does capitalism for that matter

[greekspeak]

43. I support them, but schools are in a shambles

Public schools are all but on life support, and Republicans are doing everything they can to wreck the equipment. Conservatives, if you watch, fight public education on every front, because it does not actively embrace their agenda. Conservatives don't like history classes, because they no longer perpetuate lies like the happy darky in the field. They do not like the fact that they cannot get on PA systems and indoctrinate children. They do not like to have to pay their fare share of taxes to support the schools. They do not like the unionization of the schools. Many of them hate the fact that biology class is not Sunday School. As long as conservatives hold the purse strings, public schools are going to continue their swan song.

Schools can be better within. The highschool I went to expended more energy on doling out strict punishments for minor infractions than it did for education. I was one of a tiny group of people who did not spend at least one three day session in in school suspension. This is because I was scared of my own shadow and marched lock step as I was told. Ten years later, my sister went through the school, and was not a "good student" as I had been. She spent more time in the office than she did in class. They pestered my stepmother incessantly about my sister's behavior; it was more or less tattling like children. If many other schools are this way, is it any wonder students don't learn anything?