MUST WATCH - 60 Minutes II -Ex-Aide: Powell Misled Americans

[Noordam]

Please kick on Wednesday ;)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/60II/main577975.shtml

CBS) The person responsible for analyzing the Iraqi weapons threat for Colin Powell says the Secretary of State misinformed Americans during his speech at the U.N. last winter.

Greg Thielmann tells Correspondent Scott Pelley that at the time of Powell’s speech, Iraq didn’t pose an imminent threat to anyone – not even its own neighbors. “…I think my conclusion now is that it’s probably one of the low points in his long distinguished service to the nation,” says Thielmann.

Pelley’s report will be broadcast on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday, Oct. 15 at 8 p.m. ET/PT.

Thielmann also tells Pelley that he believes the decision to go to war was made first and then the intelligence was interpreted to fit that conclusion. “…

... more at article...

[gasperc]

1. Ahhhhhhhh, beat me to it!

I've been watching the frontline report on-line and it's fascinating. PBS broke it up into 7 parts, makes for convenient watching.

Back to the CBS story
<snip>
Greg Thielmann tells Correspondent Scott Pelley that at the time of Powell’s speech, Iraq didn’t pose an imminent threat to anyone – not even its own neighbors. “…I think my conclusion now is that it’s probably one of the low points in his long distinguished service to the nation,” says Thielmann.

Pelley’s report will be broadcast on 60 Minutes II, Wednesday, Oct. 15 at 8 p.m. ET/PT.

Thielmann also tells Pelley that he believes the decision to go to war was made first and then the intelligence was interpreted to fit that conclusion. “…The main problem was that the senior administration officials have what I call faith-based intelligence,” says Thielmann.
“They knew what they wanted the intelligence to show. They were really blind and deaf to any kind of countervailing information the intelligence community would produce. I would assign some blame to the intelligence community and most of the blame to the senior administration officials.”
Allinson gives Pelley several examples of why he believes Iraq didn’t have weapons of mass destruction. One time, he was sent to find decontamination vehicles that turned out to be fire trucks. Another time, a satellite spotted what they thought were trucks used for biological weapons.

“We were told we were going to the site to look for refrigerated trucks specifically linked to biological agents,” Allinson tells Pelley. “…We found seven or eight , I think, in total, and they had cobwebs in them. Some samples were taken and nothing was found.”
<snip>

[Noordam]

4. That was an OK Frontline but missed a couple points

in all their talks with Perle they did not ask him about PNAC and the other countries the Neo-cons want to take out.

[Jester_11218]

39. Good point

Nobody talks about PNAC. They are the real president, Bush is a spokesmodel.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. Perfect example of ideological, inductive reasoning.

"Thielmann also tells Pelley that he believes the decision to go to war was made first and then the intelligence was interpreted to fit that conclusion. “…"

When you reason inductively, you allow your prejudices to make decisions for you, instead of collecting data and making reasonible and logical conclusions. This is the kind of thinking that infects people that vote Republican. Which is why they are so easy to control. Feed their prejudices by telling them their right and don't bother to give them data to prove it -- because they don't want to know they're wrong, and they would never believe it anyway.

[Jackpine Radical]

5. I think you have that backwards.

I think inductive reasoning is where you examine the specific cases & derive a principle, and deductive reasoning is where you start with the principle and predict the specific cases.

But then what do I know? I just realized it's been 41 years since I took my first college philosophy course.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. Elementary, my dear Watson.

Deductive reasoning is what Sherlock Holmes would do. Go to the scene of the crime, look at the evidence and deduce who committed the crime. The data comes first. With inductive reasoning, you form an hypothesis and then go out to find the evidence to support it. The data comes last.

That's oversimplified, but it gets the point across.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. One more time...

Inductive and Deductive Reasoning
Many people distinguish between two basic kinds of argument: inductive and deductive. Induction is usually described as moving from the specific to the general, while deduction begins with the general and ends with the specific; arguments based on experience or observation are best expressed inductively, while arguments based on laws, rules, or other widely accepted principles are best expressed deductively. Consider the following example: Adham: I've noticed previously that every time I kick a ball up, it comes back down, so I guess this next time when I kick it up, it will come back down, too.
Rizik: That's Newton's Law. Everything that goes up must come down. And so, if you kick the ball up, it must come down.



Adham is using inductive reasoning, arguing from observation, while Rizik is using deductive reasoning, arguing from the law of gravity. Rizik's argument is clearly from the general (the law of gravity) to the specific (this kick); Adham's argument may be less obviously from the specific (each individual instance in which he has observed balls being kicked up and coming back down) to the general (the prediction that a similar event will result in a similar outcome in the future) because he has stated it in terms only of the next similar event--the next time he kicks the ball.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. No. I don't have it backwards:

Though you've taken dictionary terms, I don't think you're applying them correctly. I've been arguing the pros and cons of inductive and deductive reasoning on the net for years. It was one of the main arguments against the Bell Curve. They used inductive research methods, rather than deductive.

However, post a new thread and find out what the rest of the DUers think.

[ThomWV]

17. Or

Or for a more modern version, its like someone comming up with the theory that a star will wobble if it has a planet or two. So then people spend years behind telescopes looking for a wobbeling star. And when they find one they say, there, now we have proof of other planets. Well, that's the flaw, they don't have proof of anything and haven't even considered all the other stuff that might make a star wobble.

[ShimokitaJer]

10. It's neither inductive nor deductive

because it isn't reasoning. It's creating arguments in favor of an already accepted conclusion. Reasoning of any sort would not have produced the desired conclusion, so reasoning was dispensed with entirely.

Unless you want to count:

The American people will not go to war without evidence.
We want to go to war.
Therefore we must lie to them about the presence of evidence.

Gee, when you look at it that way, it DOES look pretty reasonable.

[peekaloo]

3. screw baseball

Thielmann getting prime time exposure is worthwhile viewing.

Pelley has been doing some fine interviews/stories on Iraq for CBS.

[lebkuchen]

8. Meanwhile, CNNI is going to feature WWII pilots, in particular, *1

No kidding, CNNI is going to do a special on Bush One's WWII pilot experiences! Guess CNN felt it had to counter-act Time's headlines featurint Bush2 as a loser NG run-amok using real military as a backdrop to promote his own avarice and cowardice.

[gully]

9. Wow, thanks for the heads up!

:toast:

[proud patriot]

12. YAYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

:bounce:

[Woodstock]

13. I saw him on Frontline last night - he was super

here's the interview

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/interviews/thielmann.html

[RedEarth]

14. Thanks for the reminder......nt

[WilliamPitt]

15. I've been talking about Thielmann for months

Just trumpeted he, Wilson and Kwiatkowski all across Europe. This is good news.

[proud patriot]

16. Great William

:hi:

[Woodstock]

18. also rumored Dean will be on this show

:kick:

[RevolutionStartsNow]

24. Not a rumor

My TiVo says it's so!

[janekat]

27. They didn't say anything at the beginning of the show - wonder if

he's still on....

[hedda_foil]

33. Dean will be on next week. The schedule was changed.

[Wonk]

19. kick

[Wonk]

40. Time zone kick

[Cush]

20. on now

kick

[Cush]

21. Thielmann had the highest security clearance

so he saw it all....

Iraq wasn't even an imminent threat to its neighbors. The evidence even proved it

The alumminum tubes were for normal artillery shells, he and others told this to Powell months in advance

[Gin]

22. Wow! This is big.

gin

[RevolutionStartsNow]

23. Cheney:

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us."

LIAR LIAR LIAR

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

25. This is hysterical

"Our information has been confirmed by sources!"

I would feel much better if our country was not run by a bunch of tap-dancing liars.

By the way, note to W: it's pronounced NOO-klee-UR.

[Cush]

26. Former weapons inspector

THey found decamination trucks, but they were old and rotting away. He and other watched and said "They had nothing"

Thielmann talking about the defectors....given bad info frequently

One of the leading 'experts' had no idea of what he was talking about

SHells were left over from the first Gulf War

[Kool Kitty]

31. "Faith-based" intelligence!

I love it-"the administration officials made it be what they wanted to see." And will we ever hear about any of this again?

[blondeatlast]

52. I caught that; the Mr. and I started laughing hysterically.

[Cush]

28. Lol

Powell wasn't available for the interview......gee, wonder why?

Thielmann: Faith based intelligence...they were blind and deaf to counter intelligence. Most blame goes to Senior ADmin Officials

[janekat]

29. Pretty heavy stuff ...pretty damning isn't it?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

30. "Faith-based intelligence"

Nice.

[Robin Hood]

49. I cracked up on that one.

Must be reffering to falwell and robertson whispering into Bushies ear.

[loudnclear]

32. UNBELIEVABLE!!

The best grounds for treason and impeachment in our history! The fact that Bush is being supported by anyone amazes me.

[janekat]

34. This is prime time tv - on a MAJOR network - on a TOP rated show

This will be the first that a lot of people have heard of this. Hope it makes a splash....

[young_at_heart]

36. I ask that same question daily

This will be denounced immediately as "rewriting history" and unless other media outlets go with it people will just move on........unfortunately.

[alcuno]

35. I'd like to watch the presentation again. And watch Tenet.

I was noticing during the broadcast that he spent a lot of the time looking down while Powell was speaking. Obviously they had him sit behind Powell for a very specific reason.

[blondeatlast]

53. I thought Powell looked incredible uncomfortable when he testified before

the UN; as if he knew he was not only lying, but betraying HIMSELF. Tenet looked like a lamb who had just escaped a slaughter by THAT much.

[Wonk]

37. mp3 for those who missed it

3.4 M

[Wonk]

50. quicktime vid here

52 M

[Jester_11218]

38. I wrote an article about Powell lying to the UN months ago.

http://tvnewslies.org/html/powell_lies_to_un.html

He lied, we knew that he lied, the media never said a word.

The world laughs at us.
It is a damn shame.

[frank frankly]

41. It is a damn good artice, Jester!

way to represent! I really like your website and bookmarked it. Part of my rotation now...

[Jester_11218]

42. Thanks.

I mention DU on my new radio show all the time. Listen in once in a while.

[grasswire]

44. great site, Jeter!

I'll be passing it around to others.

[Jester_11218]

48. Thanks!!!

I work hard on it. It is nice to know people find value in it.

[Myra]

43. That's great, truly

But doesn't it seem like they're just setting
Powell up as the fall guy? Granted he's scum,
but perhaps if he falls on his sword then the
even bigger scum don't have to...

Anyway, I appreciate the TV tip.
I'll watch 60 Minutes 2, for the first time ever.

[Bozita]

45. Yahoo story -- "Nonsense," says Powell

Don't forget to rate it. I gave it a 5.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20031016/pl_afp/us_iraq_powell&cid=1521&ncid=1480

Powell dismisses ex-aide's criticism on Iraq as 'nonsense'

49 minutes ago


WASHINGTON (AFP) - US Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) dismissed as "nonsense" criticism from a former aide who accused him of misleading the American people by exaggerating the threat posed by Iraq (news - web sites).

more...

[Terwilliger]

46. west coast kick reminder...starts in 1:10

8p PDT

[AP]

47. Worse tha Mai Lai coverup? Worse then not caring about ethnic cleansing?

That's pretty low.

[Myra]

51. If there's a hell

That's where Powell and Bush Inc will
make even bigger ashes of themselves.