Should we DUers be "lobbying" MoveOn to focus on a massive

[Sperk]

media campaign to get the word out about these computer voting machines? It seems to me, that not too much else matters if they get away with stealing enough seats. Shouldn't MoveOn, ACLU, NAACP and other organizations be banning together and making this the number one priority right now? What am I missing here?

[xxqqqzme]

1. I'm w/ U on this.

Last Saturday, I attended a 'breakfast' w/ a key Cailfornia democratic strategist. During the question period, I asked about the ease w/ which these 'touch screen'`machines R rigged and the lack of a paper trail....and he f*cking brushed me off!!??? saying he didn't think they were easily rigged. I cited the Johns Hopkins, Stanford & Tufts studies. All he said was "It isn't in my peripheral vision"!

Not in his peripheral vision????? Hello! He is supposed 2 B a KEY strategist? The way he brushed off some of the more probing questions, my foil hat started sparking. I gotta wonder how far the fix is in here.

(There were also questions about steroid boy's meeting w/ Enron, which he also treated shabbily. I made some remark about it & steroid boy settling the lawsuit, and the woman next 2 me said, 'where do U get your information?' I told her democraticunderground!)

[Sperk]

2. Makes you wonder if there are moles in the democratic party

I mean, how else can you explain their behavior, it's almost like they WANT to lose!!!!! I think it's up to the people to get this message out.

[shance]

4. I had a similar experience with a 'top' Dem strategist

I was at a meeting with a group of other Democrats and we were discussing the 2004 election, and I asked a question about electronic voting and the vulnerability to manipulation and fraud. He then responded by saying that the voting places will be heavily staffed with precinct individuals so that they may " better watch whats going on".

I said thats fine, but are they going to be able to watch whats going on inside the machines? I said with this type of voting its the data going inside the machine thats vulnerable. I guess I caught him off guard because it initiated a deer in the head lights expression and then he proceeded to reply with a kind of sarchastic laugh and a comment about how he had heard about these conspiracy theories being spread around.

It was then I realized there was no further reason to expect a logical or informed response from this person. The following Monday was a breaking story in the New York Times about Electronic Voter Fraud. I forwarded the story to him.

Dont know what the situation is with our party. But that interaction gave me some pause. It was pretty disturbing.

[BevHarris]

15. The minute you hear the word "conspiracy" go on the offense

Tell them, "scrutiny isn't conspiracy." Insist that you are asking legitimate questions and tell him you object to this patronizing attitude.

The BBV book will have a section on these tactics near the end. Remember, the book is a weapon. If you know you will be meeting with someone, e-mail me ([e-mail]) and I'll tip you off as to the most relevant chapter to use. (Give me a couple days to respond)

[shance]

20. Thanks Bev. I like that. "Scrutiny isnt Conspiracy"

n/t

[PATRICK]

16. Generic problem

Candidates turn to the pros like baseball managers have to turn to burned out bullpens at the end of the season. I am betting entire generations of campaign managers are simply outdated even as they stare into the cyberspace whose technology they take for granted.

Traditionally they shrug off fraud and money advatnages as something to wash out with turnout. Inexplicably they add chicken little caution and focus group handicaps to a routine devoid of enthusiasm. If they can't even see how they have their own hands around their throat how can they understand the new situation where vote fraud IS significant and unchangeable and slipped into the losing game plan the DLC particularly adores.

Arrogance, boring and fixed rule playing in a game ruthlessly voided of such rules and dedicated sacrificing of the really effective core strategies needed to fight extremists. I would think Clark in particular would see strategy in different ways, different paradigms and risk getting out of reliance on same old same old.

Not that the past is all to be thrown out. That would be disastrous. In fact, it is the gutting of past strategies and ignoring new venues of vitality on the same coalition populist models that is the main sin these guys don't see themselves as committing.

I mean, I think we are talking to boxed in, blind people who cannot conceive of that since they wouldn't be in their positions if they didn't have absolute confidence their qualifications are otherwise.

I guess when they ALL lose elections they will ALL be given the boot. But who wants to wait for that?

I know our central party organiztion is similarly flabby but all these letters to indivudual staffs and Reps. Seems like reinventing the wheel while the GOP jets into totalitarian victory. At this rate the whole civilized world will get it before the BBV buying gov't reps get a clue.

Can't we get through the skulls of the central DNC leadership, the Senate Committee members focussed on reform? Probably all the letters are languishing in snail mail limbo and e-mail hell. The propaganda AGAINST Rubin and Bev has gotten through! By now you'd think they'd at least consider the source and who their friends are. This is absurd but it reeks of the dum de dum Congressional Dem situation that has frustrated the outside observers since 2000.

Maybe the EPA should be enlisted to protect the party.

[Junkdrawer]

19. Sneak peek into the mind of a Democratic election official...

OK, I've been doing this for 20 years. The vendors are always showing us professionally prepared brochures and slick multimedia presentations on how there are Federal agencies that thoroughly test and review all this equipment and software. And come Election Day, there's always a sticker over everything and there are reports to sign and procedures for everything.

What's this? Now they're saying the certifications are a sham, top computer experts are saying that the tests DO NOT guarantee that fraud hasn't occurred and there's memos that show that even these minimal tests and regulations have been bypassed regularly. What? The stickers and reports were magician's misdirection?

Could I have been fooled all these years? NAHHH. This person is obviously just another one of those "conspiracy nuts". Whew. That was close.

[shance]

3. Great idea, I also think DUers need to be meeting more locally.

We need to start building relationshipe with other DUers locally. I think thats an important next step as well.

[sirshack]

5. I have a pretty unpopular opinion on this...

To me, unless something major breaks (I mean very very very major), this is not an issue to focus on. It's taking a lot of effort away from more important issues that need to be addressed.

[lysergik]

6. voting integrity isn't major?

You're going to tell me and anyone else who is aware of the dangers of BBV that this isn't a major issue?

If you cast your vote for your candidate of choice and it really counts for someone else, like Bush thats not major?

Why bother taking the time to do your civic duty voting when your voice is being misrepresented to skew the results towards the candidate who is padding the pockets of these voting machine companies.

If you haven't yet, take some time and go read the Chapters online at http://www.blackboxvoting.com , maybe you'll change your mind.

[sirshack]

7. I guarantee you....

...it's an issue that does not resonate. Not because it's not worthy, but that's it a low issue on most of the publics priority list. You can harp on it all you want, but you'll just lose the audience to someone who's going to talk about more compelling issues.

[lysergik]

9. The reason its a "low issue"

.. is because the word isn't getting out and the public isn't aware of the travesty that is occuring with these computerized voting machines.

Without voting integrity, there is nothing else left, why bother with more "compelling" issues if your voice doesn't give a damn. We might as well all roll over and let Bush have a second term.

[BevHarris]

13. I'd like to collect my money back on your "guarantee"

It resonates powerfully with the public, it is the PUBLIC OFFICIALS who studiously look the other way. And by the way, why would you, in effect, be taking a mental poll of what you think "the public" thinks -- why not just do the right thing?

I'm taking a wild stab at this -- you haven't read Chapter 2, right?

Got there now. Download it. http://www.blackboxvoting.com

Then get back to me and tell me what you think after you've read every word. Anyone who actually reads that chapter and then says they don't believe it's a problem we should address (as in RIGHT NOW) has just become part of the problem.

For those of you talking to public officials -- do what RedEagle does -- she's got a post on it today. Ask probing questions and listen to find out where the blockage is. Some officials have been fed misinformation, and then you can clear that up. Others, however, are just liars.

Bev

[prolesunited]

14. It won't resonate?!?!

If you jump up and down and shout that they are STEALING YOUR VOTE, I guarantee people will take notice. It's all a matter of presentation.

If the debate is framed as some wonkish, technical issue, of course it won't resonate but if you tell people that these people are trying to take away their right to vote and have it count, it WILL matter.

I just don't think we have reached the tipping point yet on this issue. We are usually three or four months of these types of stories breaking in the mainstream.

And, yes, I think getting Moveon to focus on this issue would be an excellent idea. They really have proven their ability to get the message out and make things happen.

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. Without a legitimate election

EVERYTHING we do from here on out is a waste of time. Why should we spend hours upon hours campaigning, donate $$$$$ to our candidate and register voters.....when our vote won't be counted? IMCPO, The BBV issue should be the #1 issue of the entire Democratic party.

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. It's already been done.

If you go to Moveon.org you can read the suggestion and vote on it. You can also leave a comment.

Go here....http://www.actionforum.com/forum/?forum_id=223

[Gin]

11. THIS issue is as important as beating *. With rigged voting nothing will

work. I see it as equal in importance. Moveon.org is a good source to get the message out.

[Zan_of_Texas]

12. Yep, BBV is Numero Uno issue

How can we fix the big stuff, like having air to breathe and water to drink and food to eat and peace and jobs....and even hope, if we lose the right to vote?

We have lost the right to vote. Right now. It's gone.

Well, okay, we can vote, but in enough places to make crucial differences, our vote is discarded and replaced with some crook's idea of what votes should count.

Read one article. Just one. It'll take you several minutes. Read it and think about it. It's the one published on Monday by Andrew Gumbel.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1013-01.htm

I'll also tell ya, I cornered an old acquaintance in my grocery store, someone who is on the state Democratic Committee and running for City Council. Told her about the voting machine problems. She laughed and said, "Well, if there's new technology, I guess people will just have to figure out new ways to rig it!"

[JohnGideon]

17. About MoveOn

I have been a volunteer and regular poster on MoveOn's ActionForum for sometime now. When you read their information before going to the National Goals forum, it leads you to believe that they actually look at this forum and use it to decide on issues to work on.

If you go to another forum that is hidden on the MoveOn pages, it will take you to a forum called Making MoveOn Better. This is also the forum that you are sent to if you email them on the only email address that they give on their website. They also say that they take issues from this forum, that get a lot of votes, and will work on them.

I, and others, have posted on both forums many times. There is one post regarding HR2239 that has been voted on over 180 times as being important. 3 of the top 5 comments on the National Goals forum were for a long time electronic voting issues.

Nothing has been done with any issues that are on any of their forums since I have been a volunteer there. They tend to take those issues that THEY feel are important and they push those. If anyone knows how to get in touch with Eli Pariser or Zack Exley and can tell them to look at their forums, maybe we will get some response. Until then, I don't see it happening.

[JohnGideon]

18. I Need To Add

That I think MoveOn is an awesome group. They have done a lot of great things in the last year. Their ad campaigns, phone and email campaigns have not all been a success but they have gotten the word out that there are people who are fed-up with what is going on.

I just wish they would go to work on the voting issue. It would really help if a couple senators or representatives stood with cases of petitions and letters in front of them while they said that they were taking a bill like HR2239 to the floor and were going to pass it. MoveOn can do things like that.

By the way, go to the ActionForums and add your vote to the voting comments that are posted in the National Goals section. It might help.