Question for LIHOP people re: Iraqi WMD

[DealsGapRider]

I have a question for those who persist in believing that Bush & Co. either purposely allowed the 9/11 attacks to occur or actively assisted in their execution.



So here's my question: if Bush & Co. were able and willing to allow the 9/11 attacks to occur, why haven't they planted WMD in Iraq to spare themselves embarrassment, as well as spare the US tarnished credibility on the world stage? If the 9/11 conspiracy indeed occurred, it would have involved dozens, perhaps hundreds of people, all of whom would have had to be trusted to keep mum about arguably the biggest secret in American history (in other words, totally implausible). Planting WMD in Iraq could be accomplished with very few people involved, and less temptation for those involved to squeal, yet it hasn't happened.

If you believe the Bush Administration is depraved enough to allow the slaughter of 3,000 people simply to advance a geopolitical agenda, why wouldn't they execute the considerably easier operation of planting some chemical and biological weapons in Iraq? Lord knows, we have plenty of our own to spare.

Can anyone answer the question?

[Demobrat]

1. They tried and failed.

If you believe the Pakistanis, which I do.

[frank frankly]

3. I agree, Demobrat

Good luck getting the CIA to plant them now...

[roughsatori]

25. BINGO NT

[ElementaryPenguin]

2. The C.I.A. will bust them if they do - otherwise they would in a heartbeat

It only took a relatively few well placed BFEE members to LIHOP - even MIHOP - but it's not as if they have control of the whole U.S. Military - they don't - and they're at odds with much of the Intellegence community, which is why Rummy had to invent the Office of Special Planning.

[starroute]

4. Or they actually expected to find them

This administration is deeply motivated by fear. They constantly expect to see bogeymen in the closet and monsters under the bed. I don't believe they would have pushed the CIA to come up with evidence of WMD the way they did unless they honestly thought they existed.

Being so badly self-deluded in this way, they'd simply made no plans to plant WMD. They didn't think it would be necessary.

[Sterling]

5. Can't fake WMD

A WMD find would have to be vetted through the UN and AEC and a host of other groups not under control of DYNCORP.

I can tell you are trying hard to debunk LIHOP/MIHOP but this isn't helping. At least you did not overtly insult people and attempted to construct a reasonable arguement. That is much more than I can say for most anti-skeptics.

[Unknown Known]

6. And now that Plame and all her connections have been outed,

all of whom were involved in tracking WMDs in Iraq, Iran and N. Korea, there is more likelihood that they will successfully plant them now.

[Mikimouse]

7. I am inclined to believe the Pakistani reports as well, but even

if they tried now, it probably would be too late. There was a 'window of opportunity' for that to happen, but it is far too late for it to have any meaning whatsoever at this point. They missed their window, IMHO

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

8. At the risk of sounding foolish

What's "LIHOP"?

[Sterling]

13. Visit cooperativeresearch.org

cooperativereseaerch.org

To learn about LIHOP/MIHOP.

[Cooley Hurd]

15. LIHOP - Let It Happen On Purpose

...let 9/11 happen on purpose, that is (to further their political agenda).

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

22. Thank you

I don't believe they let it happen on purpose, but hooooo BOY they sure have no problem exploiting it to further their agenda, which everyone here knows already and I shouldn't have even bothered typing.

[Capn Sunshine]

28. not much evidence they DIDNT LIHOP

how many countries intelligence services called them directly in late August and Early September to warn them in varying degrees of the impending attack?

How did they have , the very next day, the ID's of all the hijackers?

Ashcroft not riding commercial jets ?

Total interference with the FBI investigations once it got to Federal Level employees and Saudis?

The HUGE profits, all tradesd recored and identities known, of short sellers in the stock market selling short the shares of the two airlines involved?

These are just a few of hundreds of unanswered questions

http://www.rememberjohn.com

http://copvcia.com

[Sterling]

30. I agree

given what is out there already I would say the burden of proof is on Bushco to answer these unanswered questions.

I have yet to see a discussion of any substance on this matter end up looking good for Bushco. That is why so many people want us to shut up. They can't handle the truth.

[Eloriel]

36. The countries who warned us

Off the top of my head:

Great Britain, France, Germany, Phillipines, Israel, Jordan "and possibly Morocco," Egypt, Russia (via Putin himself) -- and perhaps some I've forgotten in the meantime.

Eloriel

[leesa]

48. So why was there no air defense for nearly an hour and a half??

That is certainly not standard protocol so someone had to order those jets to stand down and someone had to order them to fly at reduced speeds when they were finally aloft? Who ordered it?

Why have BOTH Cheney personally and actively blocked the investigation of the events of 9-11-01

There is a great deal of literature available about the peculiarities of the response on 9-11-01 and the official explanation makes no sense at all.

Most of what we have been told makes no sense especially when they had threatened Afghanistan in July with carpet bombing. There are literally hundreds of unanswered and unexplored questions about the events that simply don't add up to the official story.

The Bush Crime Family IS NOT composed of nice people. They would do ANYTHING to promote their philosophy of world control and control of the vanishing fossil fuels. Kill 3000 people...probably all in a days work for those monsters. They just murdered nearly 12,000 Iraqis for absolutely nothing.

[alcuno]

17. "Let It Happen On Purpose"

Not to be confused with "Made It Happen On Purpose." It being September 11. An ongoing debate here.

[Eloriel]

41. It's only a debate for

those who haven't delved deeply into the facts -- or lack of them, in the case of all those unanswered questions.

Like: why no investigation? Why did Cheney threaten Daschle in Jan. 2002 about calling for an investigation? Why was no one found and punished for all those put options?? Why weren't planes scrambled in time? Why did Bush sit there at Booker Elementary for nearly 1/2 hour? What DID that look on his face when Card told him mean (we'll never get an answer to that, probably, but I'd really like to know and it's one of MY unanswered questions).

On and on.

Eloriel

[Wonk]

9. They're (BFEE) now under the microscope of the intelligence communities

Domestic and International. WMD (bio/chem/nuke) have fingerprints of sorts, revealing the methods of manufacture and ingredients used. They'd have to plant something that had been acquired (bought / stolen) from someone other than American manufacturers to have a hope of getting away with it.

[ozone_man]

24. That's my take, since the war began.

In fact, it's one of the reasons we started discussing the possibility back when the war began, in hopes of making it somehow harder to get away with it. I don't think the BFEE is dumb enough to try it now.

[Goldmund]

10. A few possibilities:

1) Anything they find would be subject to international scrutiny. It wouldn't be simply a matter of keeping mum about it, it would be a matter of offering material proof. I don't know how easy it would be to manufacture weapons that are demonstrably products of Iraq from the last decade.
2) Maybe they thought there really were WMDs there. Not that this gives them a valid motive for war, but they may have thought they would find something.
3) Maybe it's a Rovian operation. Maybe they will save any 'finds' they get for a month before the election, and then use that to discredit their critics on a general basis.

Those are the possibilities I can think off the top of my head.

[DealsGapRider]

21. All are fair responses, Slavkomae.

I agree that 1 and 2 are likely. I do believe that Bush genuinely thought there were WMDs in Iraq. After all, so did most of the world's intelligence agencies. They dispute was what to do with that information and the Bushies reflexively chose bellicosity. But surely they recognize the harm that is being done not only to Bush's reputation, but to American prestige, by not finding any WMD. You'd think they would have had some on hand just in case.

[leesa]

49. Not true. Most of the world's intelligence agencies, including our own

said it was unlikely they had WMD. Where did you get this inaccurate perception?

[Abe Linkman]

11. Loaded question

Answer: Old Chinese saying -

"A fool can ask a question it would take a thousand wise men to answer."

[DealsGapRider]

18. Thanks for the gratuitous attack.

If you don't have a constructive opinion, join another thread.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Who said they knew 3,000 would die?

Isn't it possible that they thought some sort of hijacking would occur but that they didn't know the WTC would fall?

[DealsGapRider]

16. Either way...

I think it's totally implausible. For the exact same reason that it's implausible that there's an alien spacecraft at Area 54. It would be too big a secret to keep, and too many people would have to know about it for it to be true. There's no way the Bush Admin. could have pulled that off without a shitload of people knowing about it. And at some point one or more of the people who knew about it beforehand would have either alerted the public to the conspiracy or at least gather some damning evidence to prove that it was a conspiracy. That did not happen. It's a fantasy.

[Junkdrawer]

19. Who said they "pulled it off"?

What if country after country told them something was about to happen AND THEY DID NOTHING? What if there were Afghan invasion plans on the pResident's desk a few weeks before 9/11? What if several people in the FBI were trying to investigate the hijackers and were stopped.

Oh wait. ALL OF THESE THINGS DID HAPPEN.

That's what I mean by Let It Happen On Purpose (LIHOP). Osama really is a bad guy - a few top White House officials could have simply and effectively Let him do his evil On Purpose. Get it?

[Sterling]

32. You missed one important part

"Osama really is a bad guy " This should be "Osama is Bush's really bad guy"

[catzies]

43. But that leaves out the fact Bushes and Binladins did business together.

Google Saudi Binladin Group.

[Sterling]

27. I understand your confusion

You don't really seem to have a very good knowledge of the subject matter judging from your question that started this thread.

You assume that there are many people who know the details of the entire plan which is in and of itself improbable. You also assume that one of these people would squeal.

If it were true that it is impossible to keep huge secret then you would have to believe that D Day, Midway, Pearl Harbor and every other military plan that would require a great deal of secrecy would have never happened.

If your premise were true then every crime in history that involved two or more perpetrators would have been solved.

Life is full of conspiracy, that’s a fact. Conspiracy is how things are done in politics, the business world and just about every other facet of life in which people work together for a common goal.

You also ignore that many people are coming forward with the bits they do know.

I understand the idea that 9-11 was an inside job is uncomfortable and incompatible with many people's worldview, but that does not make it any less true.

The people behind 9-11 rely on that among other factors to protect themselves.

[Abe Linkman]

35. naive, if honest

n/t

[arcane1]

14. seems to me that the sheep don't care about WMD

why take the risk of planting, when all you have to do is doublethink yourself out of ever claiming it?

[terrisel]

20. Condoleeza Rice said they knew an attack was coming

Condolezza Rice , herself, got on television and admitted that they had been given intelligence that an attack was coming. She claimed that they thought it was going to be an ordinary hijacking.

Although the World Trade Center had already been attacked and was a known terrorist target, no one at the center seems to have been warned about a possible attack.

Had they been warned it is unlikely that people at the world Trade Center would have been instructed to return to their offices after the first plane hit.

In other words Bush let it happen on purpose or was merely grossly incompetent.

Where is the evidence of the airlines being warned that an ordinary hijacking was going to occur ?

It doesn't take a lot of people to not give a warning. The person to whom the intelligence agencies reports either gives the word to issue the warning or he doesn't.

......and after the attack he facilitates a full and open investigation of what went wrong.....or he stonewalls an investigation.....he opens his records,or he stamps them Top Secret and threatens those who would talk, such as Bill Graham, with arrest.

[Clete]

23. I'm not sure about LIHOP or MIHOP. I still need some more

pieces of the puzzle before I make up my mind about it, although I do believe it would never have happened if Al Gore were President. WMD's were never the reason we went into Iraq. It was the propaganda we were told and supposed to believe. They knew there were none and the WH knew it, and Congress knew it.

In Nazi Germany raids were staged at German radio stations on the border with Poland. Concentration camp prisoners were dressed as Polish soldiers and killed so the Germans could bring the press and foreign diplomats to look around. The blitzkrieg of Poland was launched with the "evidence". Our Nazis didn't even bother to stage evidence before they invaded Iraq. They didn't have to because there was no one to stop them. They can't be stopped so they don't need proof.

This makes me believe even more that the next election is fixed, so there is no reason even to pretend for the sake of votes.

[goforit]

45. I apologize for what I am gonna say.

but I believe there is so much evidence out there to prove MIHOP
was intended by all members of the PNAC, that it is right in front
of our noses.(my opinion)

But, this situation is just like the it was in the 1500s when
all couldn't accept that world was not flat.(what proof did they have?)

Hey look, I can't fathom that another human being can kill another
humand being, but it does happen.

Naivity is like being blind.

[Clete]

47. I didn't say I don't believe it could be possible.

I said I don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. I think things went wrong. I know people at DU get upset with me making comparisons to the Nazis but there is a parallel with the burning of the Reichstadt, in the beginning days of the Nazi regime, and 9-11. This isn't a secret on DU.

The Nazis ran across a plot by a pyromaniac nut case, who happened to be a communist to burn the Reichstag and they helped him do it. Of course he was blamed, the communists were blamed and the Jews were blamed. The Reichstadt though was burned in the night without the loss of life that would have happened during the day. It was sufficient to frighten the people of Germany into the shocked compliance with the Nazi regime that we saw after 9-11 in our country and century.

So I think the White House knew there was a plot by a bunch of nut cases to demolish the towers. They need a cause and an enemy to enable them to be credible and to steal, which is what they do. They could have helped the nuts too, but there aren't any concrete smoking guns yet, just circumstantial evidence. Something went wrong though. The loss of 3,000 lives was not in the plan. The way the White House administration behaved after the incident shows they had their fingers in the plot but were backstabbed by the nuts. IMHO

[TomNickell]

26. Here's another one:

Given * and co was planning to attack Iraq and love the Saudis, WHY did they plant evidence that 15 SAUDIs did the hijackings?

Why not add in a few Iraqis?

DealsGapRider, Buddy, you ask a good question, but -really- you only encourage them. The folks who take this stuff seriously are -way- past the point where simple common sense and reason will affect their opinions.

[Sterling]

29. Really Tom? That was a good question?

It seems that it was batted down pretty easy?

Not that you have ever posted anything of substance in regards to this subject anyway.

In regards to your why didn't PNAC plant more Iraqis on the planes?

First of all they used 9-11 as foremost a pretext to invade Afghanistan and in general to create outrage and universal contempt for Muslims.

I can't figure out if you are just ignorant about this stuff or dishonest because given the amount of time you spend insulting people who discuss this issue I would assume you have made yourself familiar with the PNAC agenda and it's plan for war on many countries?

I would also assume you are aware that there is no connection between Iraq and 9-11 unless of course you get your news from Faux which would actually explain a lot.

In spite of that fact 9-11 was used to whip Joe Six Pack into a flag waving Muslim killing frenzy.

As far as the way the Bush administration’s handling of our security in regards to 9-11 I think the burden here is on you and PNAC to explain why we are not focusing our attention on people actually connected to 9-11 who happen to be connected with Bush family interests.

Trying to pin 9-11 on Iraq would have worked about as good as faking WMD. The "official" story of 9-11 is very fragile indeed and any objective scrutiny has pointed back to Bush family associates being involved. The official story falls apart when held to the light and must rely on people’s complacency and ignorance to keep afloat.

On one hand not unlike trying to fake WMDS in Iraq, Iraqi involvement in 9-11 would be subject to international scrutiny and would most likely not hold up.

On the other hand pinning 9-11 on Iraq would pretty much limit the PNAC plan to Iraq only where as creating a boogieman in the Bush family’s friend Osama serves as a vague justification for attacking anyone with oil.

I don’t understand your obsession with antagonizing people who are interested in investigating 9-11? It’s been over a year now and you still can’t let it go? If you think there is nothing to look at with 9-11 then just move on and let it sort itself out.

I cannot see why someone would waste so much of their life concentrating on something the don’t feel is important. Or do you think hurling insults at people you disagree with is important.

I hope not, I would hate to have to feel sorry for you.

[Sterling]

34. I have to add

I somewhat agree that if your friend who posted this thread is really put off by the issue they should not post on the subject.

I welcome this kind of exchange because it provides another opportunity to educate people to the details of the 9-11 cover up. That is a win-win situation for 9-11 skeptics.

So I tip my hat to you in thanks for providing a straw man for us to beat up on and showing time and time again how weak the argument (if it deserves to be called that) against LIHOP/MIHOP truly is.

[loudsue]

31. THEY DID TRY TO PLANT WMD's....19 Special Forces ops died

in an ambush as they were moving the WMD's in. The Iraqi special ops guys blew everything up. (Which may have SOMETHING to do with why everybody is getting so sick!)

It was just a couple of days (18th or 19th or 20th..can't remember) after the bombing started on March 17.

THAT's how those 19 guys died...there were reports at the time from international journalists who got their scoops from the scene, and from psy-ops of other countries, who were in Iraq. The links were posted on threads right here at DU. (ALWAYS on top of the REAL story!!)

Bush was trying to get on top of the WMD thing early, and it flopped, and some VERY HIGHLY TRAINED Americans died to make bushhit smell like a rose. And he still stinks......instead.

:argh:

[Sterling]

33. I would like to know more

can you post a link?

[ComerPerro]

37. Who says hundreds of people would have to know about it

All they have to do to let it happen is do nothing. So they decided to do nothing about the intelligence reports they recieved (which were numerous). Not many people need to know that.
And then, lets assume they ordered the Air Force to stand down. What the hell are the pilots going to do, come out and say they were ordered to stand down? Not likely, considering they are brainwashed from day one with fierce nationalism. To them, its just something they had to do for the good of their country.
Now, lets assume that more people than they wanted knew about this.
How do you silence these people?
Well, lets see...
Many ways...
Take, for example, the threat of being killed by anthrax...

[Sterling]

39. But they did not do nothing

They actively prevented others from stopping it and to this day are shielding those that were involved.

[Oilwellian]

38. Maybe you'd be interested in reading this....

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/06.21A.pitt.watchtower.htm

and this:
http://anderson.ath.cx:8000/911/hj09.html#2

[goforit]

46. Thanks OAF!!!!..........This says it all!

Just love those Penquins!!!

[Terwilliger]

40. Bush can't plant weapons

too many people are looking...and could you imagine if he got caught?!

No, there's absolutely no doubt about LIHOP...I mean PLEASE...the ONE event that allowed the PNAC plan to be put in place? Give me a damn break!

[Sterling]

42. Exactly

You don't have to be very smart to put two and two together. PNAC is radical and ambitious. When you consider it's importance to the neo con view of the world 9-11 is small time.

[goforit]

44. LOL!!!!...................They already tried that but it blew up in their

faces.

The mission was disbanded because they were caught. So they were taken out from the inside.

I wonder if an underground group took them out.

An article came out 8 months ago on this. I hope a DUr has kept it.

Anyone remember?

[dreissig]

50. They Wouldn't Dare

If there were a problem with the WMD's, the Bush people would be run out of town. It's likely that scenarios have been prepared by which they plant WMD's, but on balance the risk of discovery is far too catastrophic.