ASTONISHING interview with an American Officer in Iraq!!! MUST READ!

[ElementaryPenguin]

I just saw this as part of a thread in LBN! I hope the original poster won't mind, but I felt this shockingly horrible interview about the morale and conditions in Iraq simply HAD to have its own thread!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00105.htm

[rwork]

1. Could someone please

forward this to Ted Koppel. Powerful stuff. I new this was what our troops were really feeling. My god, 135 degrees and being shot at daily. What a shame.

[candy331]

2. Thanks

for posting the article here. This needs to be read by many people.

[lovedems]

3. Holy Shit!

Chimpy, can you say bye-bye to the military votes in '04? That's o.k., just wave with a smile on your face. To think, Halliburton is getting rich over there while these guys and gals are struggling to EAT and DRINK! Forget to PR about how we are helping the Iraqi people. Let's see some PR how the Iraqi's are keeping our soldiers alive because our fucking government won't take care of them. AWOL, AWOL,AWOL...This is what happens when you don't know shit.

[ironflange]

4. Jesus H. Christ!

What a terrible mess. Thanks for posting, can't wait for the rest of the series.

[paulk]

5. without naming names, Mr. Shaft (the author)

cannot present this as a credible news article.

I'm sure conditions in Iraq are terrible, but this piece reads as pure propaganda. It's hard to take seriously.

[ewagner]

8. Regretfully

that is true....

The leading questions he asked would, by themselves, disqualify this as any sort of objective journalism.

[OKNancy]

12. I read it yesterday and am suspicious

Maybe it's too much DU, but something isn't right. I non-com ( I think he is a non-com as I remember) that reads Chompsky. Of course he did say he was a reservist. The author of the piece said he cleaned up the bad grammar, but the guy reads Chomsky. It sounds fishy to me.

[Zhade]

63. The guy at turningtables.blogspot.com reads Chomsky.

NT!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

74. It's suspicious because you think enlisted guys can't read, or aren't....

...intelligent enough to read, or what exactly?

IMHO, you need to be very careful where you go with this rather insulting line of thought. I tells me more about your elitist line of thinking than it does about whether or not someone reads Chomsky.

Some of the smartest people I've ever met in my life were enlisted guys. These were people that couldn't afford to go to college but could have easily run intellectual circles around most of the people that claim to be well-educated. After earning two undergraduate degrees, I enlisted and was later picked up for OCS.

[MetaTrope]

85. Why can't he read Chomsky?

I got through basic military training with a copy of THE ILLUMINATUS TRILOGY...

[ewagner]

13. Just read the second article

I'm a little more skeptical than I was of the first. There's jut too much stereotype and "lingo" in that article. It doesn't "feel" right.

[OKNancy]

17. Yup

Anyone can write anything on scoop. There is no one to proof it or to be held accountable to.

Now I do believe it's a rotten mess overthere. It's just that this type of thing can muddy the real stories.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. How do you know what the real stories are?...

Just curious, but did any of you guys that are being skeptical ever serve in the military?

[OKNancy]

41. There have been many stories

written in mainstream papers about soldier dissatifaction. Also on the military family websites.

We know it's bad. It is just that this story sounds fishy IMO.

[paulk]

18. great tag line!

where did you get it?

One of my favorites - "Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear." - Norman Cousins

BTW - who was Norman Cousins?

[ewagner]

26. Re:Tag Line

from George Santayana...quoted liberally by Carl Sagan.

[ElementaryPenguin]

9. For me, absolutely EVERYTHING that comes out of ChimpCo...

Reads like pure PROPAGANDA!! I find nothing at all in this article inconsistent with most everthing else I've read about the conditions there. How can he possibly reveal the true source, and what other way could the information be released??

[paulk]

24. Or he could just as easily made it all up.

There are fundamental journalistic criteria that have to be met in order to be taken seriously -

And this article fails in two places-

He doesn't name names, and, as another poster pointed out, he asks leading questions. If the writer were known, and had credibility, he could get away with the first. The second is right out of Journalism 101, and this guy gets an "F".

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. And you could be just as easily attempting to discredit good info...

...how are we supposed to choose?

[paulk]

43. You apply common sense

and the rules of thumb I mentioned in the post you replied to. There's a lot of crap journalism out there, especially on the internet. A lot of it comes from the right, but a lot of it also comes from the left.

You can choose to give creedence to the article, but I guarantee that no credible news organizations will.

And, refering to your earlier post, what does the military have to do with journalism?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Whatever you say. You obviously believe yourself to be an expert.

[Guaranteed]

10. True.

In my experience, when someone says something's really great, it tends to be mediocre. And when someone says something's absolutely horrible, it tends to be mediocre.
I call it the "Law of Mediocrity."
:)

[sirshack]

34. Total agreement

It just reads way "too well". And if it is a true story...welcome to being in the military.

[Selwynn]

52. That is EXACTLY what I thought too :(

The entire time I read it I didn't feel good about it. For one thing, the questions were extremely leading. For another thing, there is no credibility without a verification of legitimacy for the interview. I agree that the Iraq war is horrible, but I also agree this reads like serious propoganda.

[hedda_foil]

6. Two more installments of this series are up.

This is for part 3 (today's) which has a link at the top to part 2.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00142.htm

[ElementaryPenguin]

14. Thanks, Hedda.

eom

[Don_G]

7. I Didn't Post It Seperately

Because no one was specifically named in the article. Without quoting a specicic source, the article could very well have been a leak by unnamed administration officals and we all know how "truthful" they are.

It does give specifics backing up polls and vague articles from the US media.

[ElementaryPenguin]

16. Well thanks for posting it, anyway.

Seems ALL very plausable to me. The U.S. Military is NOT simply a collection of gung-ho, right-wing G.I. Joes!!

[Don_G]

20. They Never Were

There are some thoughtful and intellegent people serving in the military with opinions and ideas as diverse as DU.

One dosen't have to have a political bias to know when you're getting the royal shaft...and these people know it.

[rucky]

11. Looks like we're just beginning to see

the effects of cutting Veteran's benefits. When they do come home, many of them will be broken beyond the VA's repair. PTSD, suicide, homelessness...

And Rumsfeld KNOWS what will happen as more troops come home. Why the gag order, and the Draconian punishment for exercising one's first amendment rights? In the Neocon's facist experiment, the military are the first set of lab rats (no surprise).

With an election year approaching, Rummy & Co. have put themselves in a box. If they bring more troops home, our citizens will see the effects this war has had on them, unless the gov't applies strongarm suppressive tactics. If the leave the troops in Iraq, we'll be hearing more and more from the families, unless the government applies strongarm suppressive tactics on private citizens.

So which one will it be?

[ElementaryPenguin]

15. There's no question that the military is outraged!!!!

How can they possibly not be??

[rucky]

25. But Will the citizens know how bad it is...

or will propaganda and gag orders continue to keep the well-intentioned public from supporting the troops the way they should be supported (bringing them home)?

So what if we get more anonymous interviews about how bad it is, when the mothers choose to believe the mass-marketed letters about how great things are back home - signed by their sons when they didn't write them?

Before most people get as outraged as they should be, there needs to be some faces attached to the sentiments. This board realizes that, and so does the administration - that's why we're not seeing it.

[Scairp]

19. This was already here

Some of us, including me, do not think this is real. It sounds made up. Don't be suckers folks.

[ElementaryPenguin]

21. I respectfully disagree!

eom

[Selwynn]

55. I don't think it's "made up,"

But neither is it good journalism. Leading questions, anyonymous, unverifiable source, a source that plays like a left leaning liberal already - what I am trying to say without getting shot up by idiots, is that I don't consider this interview any kind of a "proof text" for the things we believe are true. I don't doubt that things are bad in Iraq, but I also don't believe this interview helps make that case in any credible way.

[Q]

23. We'd be suckers to listen to you...

...and 'real' or not...many of us have friends or relatives in the service who are saying the same damn thing.

[ElementaryPenguin]

27. EXACTLY, Q! I've been hearing the same horror stories myself

From a few individuals I know that have been serving there! This thing is a horrendous, nightmarish episode! Think "Apocalypse Now"!

[Selwynn]

53. Are you one of them?

Do you have friends and relatives in the serivice?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. The information seems to match up very well with events that have...

...taken place in Iraq, and with letters to the editor to various newspapers from soldiers in Iraq.

Maybe you're the sucker.

[IkeWarnedUs]

22. What do we know about the author, Jay Shaft?

I would love to send this around to the press, peace organizations and friends. But without being able to verify any of it, I would like to know more about the author and interviewer, Jay Shaft.

The Coalition For Free Thought In Media, which Jay Shaft says he is editor for, is a Yahoo group. That is the only thing I can find for this guy in terms of background and/or bio.

The lack of credentials doesn't make the interview bogus, but it does make me worry. I don't pass info along unless I have some measure of confidence in what it says. Especially with this coming on the heels of the bogus "good news" letter passed around as being from the troops in Iraq.

So, who is Jay Shaft?

[ElementaryPenguin]

28. He's an established journalist working for Scoop!

Which is a very well known website in New Zealand - and has been a good source for many stories regarding the Bush Junta.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/about/

[IkeWarnedUs]

38. Scoop

Scoop is a wonderful forum and a great source of news you won't find covered in America's mainstream media. But I generally don't send articles I find on Scoop around without other, outside verification. Either the subject of the article has a website I can refer too or the story is being carried by foreign press or I have complete confidence in the author.

Scoop prides itself with being an open, uncensored forum made up of "raw" contributions. They take no responsibility for the content. From Scoop's self-portrait on their website (your link):

Scoop.co.nz is therefore an online publication made up largely of what we call "disintermediated" news - that is news without a spin put on it by a journalist, published as its delivered to us. That makes Scoop unique. All content is delivered to you as the writer intended – leaving only you to make judgements about what you read, not us. ( More about our mission and philosophy for the Scoop’s online publication here).

------------------------

As I said, a wonderful forum and great source of news, but not what I would consider proof of credibility.

I am not saying the interviews are fake or staged or suspect in any way. They may be, they may not. I do not want my question to be interpreted as implying that.

If his Yahoo group and Scoop are the only references to who Jay Shaft is, I still enjoy reading the interviews, but I don't feel comfortable endorsing them by distributing them to my contacts under my name.

Btw, I sent Jay Shaft an e-mail to ask him if he can tell me more about who he is and what else he is involved in. I told him I want to share whatever he tells me and I plan to post his reply to DU.

[ElementaryPenguin]

60. Good work, Ike warned us.

I'd hate for us all to go about dismissing everything that happens to sound too much like the horrible scenario that is the Iraq occupation!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. Here's a Google search I did on Jay Shaft...looks like he's written...

...quite a few articles:

Jay Shaft<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%2B%22Jay+Shaft%22+&btnG=Google+Search>


WARNING: Due to the nature of the writer's last name, it was inevitable that some links would be of a pornographic nature. They are listed among the very last of the links in this Google search string.

[IkeWarnedUs]

42. just checked out your google link

Pretty much the same as I found. Yes, there are a lot of links (4,760) and he has been writing a lot. But take a good look at the links. They are all to a couple dozen articles, published on various websites, all since May 2003 (at least through page 11).

Here is Jay's answer to my e-mail.

First, what I asked him:

I have been reading your series of interviews, "US Soldiers to America: ''Bring us home now; we’re dying for oil and corporate greed!'' They are very powerful. I know of a few people who say their friends and/or relatives who are serving or have served in Iraq made similar statements.

I am involved with a few peace organizations and have been very outspoken with everyone I come across about my opposition to the war and a number of other issues. I have an extensive list of people, press and groups I pass info along to, both online and in hard copies. I am telling you this in hopes you understand the motivation behind my question.

How would you suggest I respond if/when someone doubts the authenticity of the interviews? I appreciate why you cannot and will not disclose any more info about the subjects of your interviews. But in the case of blind interviews, it becomes much more important to be able to trust the author. I searched the internet and the only thing I could find about you is that you are the editor for the Yahoo group, Coalition For Free Thought In Media. Can you share something more about yourself to lend credibility to what you write.

I would like to be able to share your response, so if there is something in your reply you don't want me to share, please be sure to let me know.

I hope you understand that I am not trying to imply that the interviews are questionable. The info I pass along, like your interviews, is generally controversial and contrary to what people are hearing on the evening news. I take great pains to be as sure as I can be that what I talk about is credible. The interviews have already been questioned by some of my friends I showed them to. Before I spread the word about the work you've done, I would like to know how to address the concerns.

Thank you,
---------------------

His response:

This is a list of some of the articles I have written. I have a knack for getting to the meat of a story or issue. I try to get the voices of those affected by the problem in print. I have been carried as front page headlines on many weebsites and newspapers all over the world.

As to the accusations of falsifying the stories I will include a letter I just worte about it, giving the feedback from others.

Scoop: Homeless And Starving In The Land Of The Free
US Homelessness and Poverty Rates Skyrocket While Billions are Spent Overseas
on Occupation By Jay Shaft Coalition For Free Thought In Media 7/31/03. ...
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0308/S00011.htm - 41k - Oct 15, 2003 Cached

Scoop © - Headlines
... Students Arrested After Occupation - Schwarzenegger Wins Cali Governor Race - Martin
LeFevre: Child Abuse - Jay Shaft: Living on the Edge of Disaster -
Living on the Edge of Disaster: Being a Poor Working Mother in America www.scoop.co.nz/headline.htm - 88k - Oct 15, 2003 - Cached http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00074.htm

Scoop: 2003 Democratic Media Award For Scoop
... 2) 11:35 am Jay Shaft UQ Wire: 9/11 - Status of the Investigations 11:35 am www.UnansweredQuestions.org
9-11 Probe Continues To Bypass Executive Branch 11:35 ...
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0301/S00107.htm - 23k - Oct 15, 2003 - Cached
Scoop: How the Peace Movement Has Made a Difference
... By Jay Shaft Coalition For Free Thought In Media 30th September 2003. ... *****.
Jay Shaft, Editor, Coalition For Free Thought In Media. ...
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00007.htm - 37k - Cached

Scoop: Jay Shaft: US And Terrorists Both Kill Civilians
Jay Shaft: US And Terrorists Both Kill Civilians Wednesday, 20 August
2003, 11:58 am Column: Jay Shaft. US and Terrorist Groups Both ...
www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0308/S00151.htm - 30k - Cached

Scoop: Iraq: the Children are Dying - More Now Than Ever
... Than Ever. By Jay Shaft Coalition For Free Thought In Media. ... yahoo.com.
- Jay Shaft, Editor, Editor, Coalition For Free Thought In Media. ...
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0305/S00191.htm - 32k - Oct 15, 2003 - Cached

Scoop: Major Iraqi Uprising Looming In Near Future
Major Iraqi Uprising Looming In Near Future. By Jay Shaft Coalition For Free Thought
In Media 6/13/03. ... Jay Shaft, Editor, Coalition For Free Thought In Media . ...
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0306/S00105.htm - 32k - Cached

Scoop: Some Lives Seem More Important In War on Terror
... By: Jay Shaft Coalition For Free Thought In Media 6/23/03. ... *****.
Jay Shaft, Editor, Coalition For Free Thought In Media. ...
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0306/S00173.htm - 34k - Oct 15, 2003 - Cached

Scoop: Afghanistan: An Outright Humanitarian Disaster
Afghanistan: An Outright Humanitarian Disaster Friday, 13 June 2003, 11:01 am
Column: Jay Shaft. ... By Jay Shaft Coalition For Free Thought In Media 6/12/03. ...
www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0306/S00094.htm - 38k - Oct 15, 2003 - Cached

I can only respond to any slander and accusations that I faked the interviews by saying that many groups such as Veterans For Peace, VFW, DAV, SOA Watch, Vets Against War, Iraq Victims, Iraq Body Count, Inter Press News Agency, Bring Them Home Now, Peace Net, Military Members Against the Iraq Occupation, many vets, family members, serving military, and journalists have all endorsed and used this article.

It has passed inspection by the very ones that would be able to spot a fake in a quick second. I say to all those who want to disparage my hard work and the courage of those who spoke out to find something better to do with their time. This series of articles is real and all truth. Nothing was invented and those words are as they were spoken by our heroes who are putting their lives on the line.

Since last week when I first sent some preview copies of the articles to vets and military families, many soldiers have had the courage to say the same thing very publicly and put their name on it.

I am not releasing names because of promises of confidentiality that I am bound to comply with.

I let the articles stand on their own, there is no further explanation or talking about it necessary.

Jay Shaft,
Editor--Coalition For Free Thought In Media
[e-mail]

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. Yes, I understand that there are multiple links to the same articles,...

...but I also noticed who was actually publishing the material, and there are quite a few groups willing to carry his reports. We have not gotten this kind of information from the mainstream press up until now, but we are beginning to see some of it in the forms of letters to the editors of various newspapers and interviews seen on mainstream television.

Additionally, I served in the military from 1976-1981 after completing seven years of college education. Although I served in a period of time that was free from combat, I did serve with quite a few enlisted men and officers that served in Vietnam. Their stories were virtually identical to the stories reported by Jay...the killing of innocent civilians, the constant sniping, the assaults that seemingly came out of nowhere, the sense that they had absolutely no control over their own lives, and a certain belief that they had been pushed into a war on fabricated pretenses.

I also have no problem with him not revealing sources that are still in the military. Having been in the military myself, I learned very early not to get on the bad side of the guys at the top. There are things the military can do in the way of "punishment" that will never show up in a personnel record.

I also have high regard for the groups that he mentioned in his letter to you...Veterans For Peace, VFW, DAV, SOA Watch, Vets Against War, Iraq Victims, Iraq Body Count, Inter Press News Agency, Bring Them Home Now, Peace Net, Military Members Against the Iraq Occupation...if they endorse his work, he's fine by me.

One more point...if Jay could have been discredited by the powers that be, that would have happened by now.

[IkeWarnedUs]

58. I'm not sure how far I want to take this

Look, I am not saying trying to discredit Jay Shaft. I am not accusing him of fabricating the interviews or doing anything wrong.

I also recognize the articles he has written are quite an accomplishment. My only "published" writing is on message boards like DU.

And I'm not picking on Mr. Shaft. I am just as particular about anything I pass out.

I don't want Mr. Shaft to reveal the identities of the soldiers he interviewed. I understand why it would be a horrible thing to do - almost on par with the White House outing Wilson's wife. I never meant to imply that.

All I'm saying is I don't know enough about the author to lend my credibility to this. I am tempted to write to the organizations he listed to ask their opinion of him and his work. But my only reason for asking about Mr. Shaft was to know if I wanted to include this in the information I share. I am content to simply read the interviews and watch to see what happens with Mr. Shaft's career.

[Zhade]

66. He certainly comes off as very defensive.

I imagine he has been asked this same question repeatedly.

His spelling and poor diction at times makes me wonder if he wrote his response rapidly while in a very emotional state.

I'm unhappy to say that I am still a little skeptical. I will be the first to happily admit I was wrong on him, but for now, I can't...quite...accept the article as credible. Yet.

[proud patriot]

29. Pass The Kleenex

:-(....I am so touched by this ...I yelled so loud at the
last protest for our soldiers ...I will keep yelling .

:-( :-( :mad: :-( :-(

[ElementaryPenguin]

30. Great little post there, PP! This sheer madness MUST be stopped!!

eom

[proud patriot]

37. You would of been super proud of me at the last protest

Terwilliger described me as "Irate"...

I yelled at the top of my lungs for about
5 minutes . Repeating "Bush kills Americans,
Our soldiers our dying becuase of lies , they
2 liters of water a day , one mre a day in 130
degrees heat . Bring them home now . bush kills
Americans How many must die for bush lies. How
much of that 87,000,000,000 is going to the vice
president . How much of that 87,000,000,000 is going
to the presidents inheritance . How many lives have
bush's lies cost us . You right wingers wanted this
war you go fight it . Impeach Impeach ,, 2 liters
of water a day , one mre a day in a 130 degree heat .
Please bring them home ..."

and on and on I went .....Someone ran across the street
though traffic to take my picture too. :shrug:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

35. omg!..i fear for jay shaft and the soldiers he interviewed...stay safe

[gully]

39. Horrifying! The news media needs to speak to these soldiers

and hear their cry for justice.

This is sickening to say the least.

Liberation MY ASS!

[Nederland]

40. Really Fishy

What made me question was this part:

How the hell do you think it affected me? I saw over 30 of the men I had to keep safe die, and over 100 get wounded and not come back.

The man is described as being an enlisted man. Given that, he can't be in charge of a very large group of people. If the group he is in charge of isn't big, 30 deaths and 100 wounded sounds really, really high. It should be easy to find out is any one company has suffered that many casualties...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. Read Part One of the series again...carefully this time...

"The following interview was with an enlisted man, but someone very high up in the enlisted ranks, with over 20 years of military service."

An enlisted man with more than 20 years in the service will have significant responsibilities. I suspect that the person in question is either a Command Sergeant Major (E-9) in a Brigade level organization or higher, or a Battalion Sergeant Major (E-9).

Here's some information on unit sizes in the US Army (he could be a Marine, but I doubt it):

Squad: The smallest groupings in the army structure, squads are made up of 8 to 11 soldiers and are normally led by a sergeant.

Platoon: Usually consisting of two to four squads, platoons are typically led by a lieutenant, with a senior sergeant second in command. (usually 30-40 men)

Company (in the infantry), battery (in the artillery) or troop (in the cavalry): The company, battery or troop is made up of three to five platoons and is typically commanded by a captain. It usually has a first lieutenant as the second in command and a first sergeant as the senior non-commissioned officer. (usually 100-150 men)

Battalion: The primary combat maneuver element of the Army, the battalion or squadron is composed of four to six companies and is commanded by a lieutenant colonel with a sergeant major as the senior non-commissioned adviser. A major acts as the executive officer and second in command. The battalion is tactically and administratively self-sufficient and can conduct independent operations of a limited scope. An armored or air cavalry unit of similar size to a battalion is called a squadron. (usually 500-600 men)

Brigade: The brigade or regiment is made up of two to five battalions under the command of a colonel with a sergeant major as the senior non-commissioned officer. Armored calvary and ranger units of similar size to a brigade are called regiments, while special forces units are known as groups. (usually 1500-3000 men)

Division: Typically made up of three maneuver brigades, as well combat support brigades, they are commanded by a major general. The division performs major tactical operations for the corps and is capable of sustained operations. (usually up to 17,000 men counting all combat, combat support, and administrative personnel)

[Junkdrawer]

50. Or casualty rates are MUCH higher than we are being told...

There was a post a while back describing how Senators were told in a CLASSIFIED briefing the true casualty figures. It went on to say the Senators who attended the meeting were stunned into silence.

[ElementaryPenguin]

57. Jeez! That is some scary shit, Junk! It's come to that?

eom

[Junkdrawer]

59. From the archives...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=295068

[Junkdrawer]

61. From MSNBC

Bush calls for ‘whatever is necessary’
MSNBC NEWS SERVICES
WASHINGTON, Sept. 7

Shortly after the speech, NBC’s Norah O’Donnell reported that a growing number of lawmakers, including Republicans, have lately expressed dismay at administration efforts to keep classified the number of U.S. casualties in Iraq. O’Donnell, speaking on MSNBC’s “Hardball With Chris Matthews,” said those casualties included more than 1,100 wounded in the conflict to date.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/951994.asp?0cv=CA00

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Have you noticed that they have stopped talking about casualties in...

...Afghanistan entirely?

Here's what's going on. It's basically a medical "shell game". The casualties from Afghanistan and Iraq are being treated briefly in-country and then shipped to Germany for much more thorough treatment. The ones that are the less badly wounded are being shipped to the States for additional treatment, and IMHO, these are the casualties that are actually being counted along with the dead that are being shipped home right away. Think about that for a second.

The more seriously wounded...brain injuries, etc....are being kept in Germany until they either die and are sent home for burial, or recover enough to be sent to a Stateside hospital. There must be hundreds of badly wounded soldiers in this category.

Once shipped back to the States, the less badly wounded can find themselves being housed in hotels/motels close to the primary care hospital because the hospital beds are full. This also serves the purpose of confusing anyone trying to make an accurate count of casualties. Who would think of going to each nearby hotel or motel to look for additional American casualties?

My guess for total American casualties is in the 2500-3000 range, nearly double what we're being told. It could be even higher than that.

The people running this thing are sick, sick puppies.

[NNN0LHI]

44. Happy soldiers don't kill themselves

Army Concerned About Suicides of U.S. Troops in Iraq


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031016/ts_nm/iraq_usa_suicide_dc&cid=564&ncid=1473

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.

At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials said.

One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force said it had no such cases.

Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat operations over in Iraq on May 1.

more

[ramblin_dave]

46. Washington Post article shows low morale

So these interviews could reflect reality.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32521-2003Oct15.html

[ComerPerro]

47. I don't know how authentic this is

It sounds a lot like all of our talking points.

Essentially, I don't trust anything that anyone says the soldiers are saying.

I especially don't trust the administration, republicans, or conservatives.
Therefore, though, I don't want to just blindly believe this without some references.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. The more you read letters to the editor and see...

...television interviews of soldiers in the field, the more credible this series becomes.

[ComerPerro]

51. I agree with that statement

I know most of the people over there are not happy.

Its just that this interview seems to have too many cliched phrases in it.

[Jonte_1979]

54. Well said

I don't think we should put much stock in this one. It reads like a screenwriter writing a dialogue for a military man.

[Selwynn]

56. Agreed

[althecat]

62. Scoop editor here.... The reaction to these pieces is truly astonishing

The reaction to these pieces is truly astonishing...

On Jay, truth is, all I know about him is that he is a passionate journalist, I presume an amateur, with an intensely active social conscience and a truckload of guts and pluck.

Scoop as someone above has pointed up has a bit of a habit of adopting writers like Jay and giving them a break. And with this series Jay seems to be making his way into the big time... so far on Scoop this particular one has received well over 25,000 views... which puts him up there with evil DUer Ewing and the original LIHOP story...

A fairly full listing of Jay's stories on Scoop (sans any pornography) can be seen here:

http://tinyurl.com/r846

This recent article in particular gives a bit of a flavour of who Jay is.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00007.htm

"I was with a few people passing out flyers that stated "Bush Said Bring ‘em On, We say Bring the Troops Home". On the back of the flyer was a list of all soldiers lost to combat since Bush made that oh so bold and reckless statement.

I was being seriously threatened and harassed by a man and his three sons. The father was supposedly a veteran who fought in a never named war and was pushing me and trying to get me to fight him and his irate sons. I heard a Marine Corp battle cry and looked up to see two Marines, one in dress blues and the other dessert camouflage, charging in my direction with hate and anger in their eyes.

I thought that I was about to attacked by what were obviously freshly returned front line troops. I was shocked when the duo pushed the father and sons away from me and walked me away to a quiet spot. As we were walking away from what was to be a sure fire fight, the marines told the father that in no uncertain terms I was a real American and a hero in their eyes.

The Marine wearing dress blues had tears in his eyes and bear hugged me for several minutes. His friend was a little more aloof but nevertheless had tears in his eyes as well. They said they had just returned home from Iraq the day before, and had not had an opportunity to thank one of the ant-war protesters until then. I was in a bit of shock because I had had some very mixed response from soldiers who had seen me protesting before.

I was told that they knew that many of the ant-war protestors wanted them to return home safe and did not want them to die as they had been told by their unit commanders. The said that thy had received hundreds of letters from war protestors wishing them a safe return to the US and trying to explain to them why US citizens were against them being in Iraq.

Anyone who has any doubts about their anti-war convictions should take this example and think about how we are having a huge positive impact, especially on our serving troops. They see no end in sight to the war and their buddies dying every day and they realize that the very movement that they were told was un-American and unpatriotic just wants to see them come home and everyone in Iraq to stop dying."

So is he making stuff up?

Frankly I don't think so. But that said... I can't be certain on that count. And as Jayson Blair and the NYT proved, even with the best systems in place it is possible for fraud to creep into the journalistic house.

Personally I trust Jay and wish him the best. We can be certain of one thing, unlike Jayson Blair he is not motivated by fame or money. We don't pay him and I doubt most of the other outlets that have published his articles have either.

And I doubt he expected these articles to resonate as much as they have done.

Finally as you can see they are part of a five part series... and each interviewee has their own unique vernacular and point of view. The best way to assess their veracity will be to read all five and then trust your own instincts.

al
Scoop
New Zealand

[incapsulated]

70. Honestly, I can't buy it

Of course things are really bad over there, there are enough stories coming out in the mainstream media to make that point. BUT.

This interview is filled with DU "talking points" as another poster said, and the language seems artificial and strained. As you noted, this person is an amateur, he is not going to lose his job and become headline news like Jayson Blair if it turns out to be fake. He has nothing to lose. I can't trust information that comes from a source that I never heard of that has no public "scrutiny" that I'm aware of.


I don't know anyone who speaks like this casually, myself. Maybe on a leftie forum like DU, but not on the phone from a soldier. Soldiers, generally speaking now, don't like going over the grusome details of civilian deaths until many years after the fact, and it's often a very emotional issue, not a diatribe against themselves? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but it sends off a dozen red flags to me.

:shrug:

[althecat]

72. Frankly I don't buy most of what I see on TV either...

As I say, I don't know, can't know. But I certainly think Jay is genuine... Read the other two interviews and see what you think then...

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00116.htm
and
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00142.htm

[incapsulated]

73. It raises the same flags and sounds even worse

Quote:

Trooper 1-- “God man you really ask the painful questions don’t you. If I didn’t know you were doing this to expose the real truth and try to bring us home, I would have to kick your ass for making me feel the hurt all over again.”

“For every one of us that dies for no reason the whole country ought to get out and protest and riot. That is one thing I’ve seen the Iraqis do very well. When we kill some of their people they come out by the thousands and make it known that they are pissed and won’t tolerate it any more.”

“That is what all the American people need to do. Every time the Pentagon gets one of us killed they need to riot and protest in the streets. If they did that maybe Rumsfeld and those assholes like Wolfowitz and Perle would think twice about letting another one of our troops die in combat. Maybe they would bring us home. Until the American people stand up and say ‘NO MORE DEAD SOLDIERS!’ they will keep butchering us like sheep!”


huh...

Look, believe it if you like, or don't. Just my opinion!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. "Huh", what? Got any specifics or are we just supposed to read your mind?

[incapsulated]

78. Look...

If you think the average soldier is going to do an interview repeatedly condemming himself and the actions of his fellow soldiers, well, I don't know what to tell you.

USA-- -“I want to talk about some of the children I saw killed for no reason, maybe it will wake someone up who doesn’t believe it was happening, or that it was very bad. I can tell you I will never forget the screams of the wounded or orphaned kids, or the wailing of the parents who lost their kids. The Iraqis and most Muslims have a very vocal way of mourning the dead by lamenting and wailing for the dead. There is no mistaking a mother or father crying out in pain for the loss of a child. They don’t cry like that unless there has been a death. Sometimes after a bombing raid or an artillery attack you could here hundreds of people wiling and weeping.”

Trooper 1-- “For every one of us that dies for no reason the whole country ought to get out and protest and riot. That is one thing I’ve seen the Iraqis do very well. When we kill some of their people they come out by the thousands and make it known that they are pissed and won’t tolerate it any more.”

CFTM-- “You had told me about an incident where you were told to fire on Iraqi protesters who were throwing rocks at your unit during a hug demonstration. Can you give me some details about that and who ordered you to fire into the crowd?”

Trooper 1-- “ I will talk about this a little bit, but I don’t really want to. There was more than one time we were told to fire into a crowd of protesters or during demonstrations. I will tell you about the one time I talked about already and you can make it out any way you want. I just watched a show about something like we went through, I think it was Frontline(it was Frontline) and really got the picture of how bad it must have been for the Iraqis that have been fired on during protests.”

<snip>

“That is all the details I really feel right giving you. I know one thing though. The commanders later claimed we were fired on from the crowd. That’s bullshit and a bunch of us know it. It started with a bunch of angry women and some men throwing rocks, and it ended with at least 15 dead and over 30 wounded. I saw a small girl laying on the ground with a hole in her head and some more wounds in her back and side. She did not have anything to do with the crowd, she was down the street trying to find food or something.”

“That’s all I’ll give you on that. I don’t want to get in any trouble or have anyone think I helped kill innocent people.”

Does this sound like soldier talking to an interviewer, or a post on DU?:

“Get us the fu.. out of Iraq! Don’t let another one of us die or get injured. How many disabled vets and dead fathers and mothers do you want on your conscience? How much more blood can you get on your hands George Bush??? How many more Iraqis do we have to kill and then live with their blood on our hands?”

“Bring us home now!!! Tell your Senators to stop giving Bush money for this carnage. If you demand that we come home they will have to listen. At least I hope they would, they are supposed to have our best interest at heart!”

“Fuck you George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, Paul Wolfowitz, Paul Bremer, and all then rest of you sorry assholes! Why don’t you come fight this war if you think it’s right?”

[Media_Lies_Daily]

81. The soldier knows he's not going to be betrayed by the journalist...

..so he's saying exactly what's on his mind.

He's not the only soldier saying these things, publicly or privately. And he's certainly not the highest ranked individual to make negative comments about the firestorm these guys have been dropped into like so mch firewood.

Were you around during Vietnam? Much worse was being said about that war, things that repeatedly condemned themselves and the actions of their fellow soldiers. Too bad message boards weren't around then.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. Thank you very much...I appreciate you taking the time to post.

[althecat]

79. No worries.... like several web editors I think DU rocks...

For folks like me it is extremely nice to see that material we publish is being read and thought about....

[DealsGapRider]

64. Um, how do we know who wrote this?

I love it how many DUers react when they read something they don't agree with or something that inconveniences their argument - attack the source: "Oh, I don't believe anything I read on CNN..."

But if they agree with it, by golly, you'll hear none of that suspicion. This was an entertaining read, and if it's true, I would be impressed. But there is zero proof that this interview is anything besides the imagination of the author.

My dad has an old saying -- paper sits still; you can write ANYTHING on it. Same is true for the Internet.

[ramblin_dave]

65. Read the posts above and you'll see lots of suspicion,

then read post 62 from the scoop editor.

[DealsGapRider]

67. You're right, I didn't catch all the suspicion at first glance...

...I was pleased to see lots of skeptical, piercing comments. But still plenty of gullible people who believe what they want to believe.

[Junkdrawer]

68. I get it... if we believe that no US Officer would talk like that about...

a war, we're "piercing". If we believe that an officer could very well speak like that, we're "gullible".

What ever you say, chief.

[DealsGapRider]

69. No, just that you shouldn't reflexively believe everything you read...

...if you agree with it.

[Junkdrawer]

71. Here's what this gullible guy thinks...

There are a lot of servicemen home on a short R&R leave before they have to go back to that hellhole called Iraq.

I'll bet they are on orders to not speak to the press regarding their opinion of the conflict. Some will want to speak anyway, but the mainstream press will be reluctant to print their accounts, especially with the recent "we only hear bad news from the Liberal Press" campaign from this administration.

So my guess is that it's only through alternative media sources that their stories will get out. And I also think there will be a concerted attempt to discredit these stories.

PS: Just to doubly discredit myself, I think the 500 astroturf Letters To The Editor we've seen recently were a ham fisted attempt to preempt the negative accounts soon to be seeping into the press.

[Junkdrawer]

83. Kick

:kick:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

82. Big duh. Isn't that why we're all here?

[Judi Lynn]

84. Important article, great thread, Elementary Penguin

It's time people started waking up, isn't it?

Thanks so much.

[NicRic]

86. Hope bush not relying on milatary vote....

in 2004 ,like they did in 2000. Another bridge bush has burned ! It appears that he has pissed off ,most of his voting base ,at least the ones that have their eyes open. I mean who ever claims this pResident is doing a good job ,is only lying to themselves ! In every aspect he is a miserable failure ,and never deserved the frist term ,and if he does win in 2004 ,all I can do is stare in amazment, at how easily the voters in this country can be fooled into being fools !

[Plaid Adder]

87. I hate to say it, EP, but this smells fabricated to me

It's not that I don't think that you could probably find a lot of guys in Iraq who would say more or less all of this stuff, but there are a lot of things about that 'interview' that sent up red flags, especially the part where they discuss the interviewee's status as an "educated man." But mainly what I distrust is the whole, "Can you tell us more of what we want to hear?" "Yes, let me tell you a whole bunch more of exactly what you want to hear" structure of the Q&A.

Also, for all the stuff the guy says at the beginning about wanting to preserve the interviewee's 'voice,' I don't actually see any difference between the voice of the interviewer and the voice of the interviewee, which is a bad sign as it suggests that both parts were written by the same person.

Alas,

The Plaid Adder