Are anti-war people responsible for cleaning up Iraq?

[Brucey]

I hear lots of liberals say that the US cannot just pull out... that we are now responsible. But I do not feel any responsibility at all. Am I responsible for what my government does? Were the non-Nazis in Germany responsible for what Hitler did? Should they have been imprisoned or fined? If the US would announce that it is pulling out, a vacuum would appear that would quickly be filled by the middle east countries that are friendly to Iraq and by the UN. Why should those of us who were against this invasion from the very beginning have to pay?

[mbartko]

1. Because in a democracy...

we have to accept the consequences of what our government does, even if it thoroughly sucks. Believe me, no one was more anti-war than me, but the fact is, we destroyed Iraq and now someone should pay for it, and it shouldn't the Iraqis. Yes it sucks. It's like having a kid who takes your car out and totals it by driving like an idiot.

Let the American people see what this administration costs us. The American public seems to be having a tough time realizing such costs as environmental degradation, increased susceptibility to terrorism, a complete loss of respect in the international arena, etc. etc.

Not a good analogy, but if my kid knocked out your kid's tooth, which I would obviously not condone, I would pay the dental bills. I wouldn't loan you the money for the dental bills, I would pay it. I think the whole issue is a good lesson learned for unconcerned citizens who think the actions of the government don't affect them personally.

That being said, I don't want the money to go to the profiteers who will get it.

[9215]

15. "democracy"?

That is a debatable point.

[mbartko]

25. Yeah, I know.

I don't know what the hell to call it anymore.

[IrateCitizen]

2. Because it depends on WHY you opposed the war

If you opposed the war simply because you opposed Bush, and you can just pull out and leave chaos behind with a clear conscience, then by all means go right ahead.

Personally, I opposed the invasion because I consider war to be a crime against humanity. I opposed it because I knew that it would only result in senseless death and wanton destruction, and that whatever positives would be gained through the ouster of Saddam would be far overrun by the negatives in the long term -- as we are now seeing played out.

If my opposition to this war was truly based on moral humanitarian reasons -- and it was -- then how can I advocate simply abandoning the country to chaos? I don't support the US occupation, and believe that COMPLETE control should be turned over the UN (with the US providing the lion's share of funding), but simply pulling out would be a disaster for the majority of the people of Iraq. The entire country would slip into complete anarchy -- and I'm talking "Mad Max" anarchy, not "Emma Goldman" anarchy here.

[NNN0LHI]

3. I almost feel the same way you do

Then I ask myself. Don, would you send your son over there to die to try and prevent anarchy in this mess in Iraq that the Bush cabal has caused while the sons and daughters of Bush and his wealthy friends party down in some tavern? And that is the real queastion here whether you want to admit it or not. And my honest and well though out answer to that question is FUCK NO!

Whats your answer to that same question?

Don

[IrateCitizen]

5. Don, you have no idea how personal of an issue this is for me

I don't know if you're aware of it, but I'm a junior officer (1LT) in the US Army Reserve. I submitted an application for discharge as a conscientious objector just about a year ago, and am awaiting determination of that application. The whole reason I am NOT over there right now is because I have a pending application. I was actually on a filler list to be transferred to a deploying unit last Jan/Feb, but was taken off due to my unresolved application (it's part of the Army Regs).

But I could STILL be ordered to deploy over there. The Army is looking to designate units for the next round of deployments. If my unit is called up, I could be ordered to deploy REGARDLESS of my unresolved application. My application could very well be denied. I could be facing a very difficult choice with regards to this in the near future, because I'm still not entirely convinced that I would deploy even if ordered to do so -- thus risking court martial and time in the stockade.

What the Bushes or the sons and daughters of the wealthy do is beyond my control. It is a waste of time for me to consume myself with trying to deny that fact. The only thing that is within my control is what actions I can take to try and create a more peaceful and caring world.

If the UN would take control over there, and I would be called up to support the reconstruction (I am a civil engineer and in a construction engineering battalion, after all), I would feel it to be my humanitarian duty to go. I think I would probably refuse to carry a weapon, but I would go to help improve the human condition of those living over there.

But under the current realities? I really don't know what I would do. I hope and pray that everything works out so that I am not confronted with that decision. But if it comes, I'll just have to trust in my moral foundation and listen to my heart to figure out the right thing to do. The greatest consequence I could ever live with is giving in to outside pressure and not living true to what I believe to be right an just -- in the same vein as the Debs quote I have as my signature line.

I hope this helped to clarify my position for you, Don. Peace.

[NNN0LHI]

7. I admire your position and hope you make the right decision for you

But I find it to be much different as to what I would do personally compared to what I would want my son to do if I had a son. I held my few week old grandson yesterday and thought about this very question as I held him. And there is no way on this earth that I would let him become involved in what I consider an unwinnable situation in Iraq. I would die first before I would allow him to go off to his death on the other side of the world to increase Halliburtons (two "L's") profit margin. No way! And that is what is going on here. I seen the same thing in the 60's and early 70's and all we have to show for that is a memorial in DC with over 50,000 dead Americans names on it. Nope. I won't get fooled again. Peace and good luck with your CO status. I hope things go your way.

Don

[9215]

20. ?

Did your unequivocal stance on war--a crime against humanity--begin before or after you entered the military?

[IrateCitizen]

21. After.

I was 19 when I signed my contract. I'm now 30. A lot of things can change over the better part of a decade.

[bowens43]

4. Yes, you are responsible for what your government does.

We all are. We are all morally obligated to rebuild that which our government destroyed. As far as the Nazis go,after world war II , wasn't Germany forced to pay reparations (I know they were after world war I)?

[Brucey]

6. Why are we morally obligated?

Can an unprincipled government do anything it wants and the public is then morally responsible? If we pull out of Iraq, it seems obvious to me that other countries will rush in to grab power. But, the issue here is whether the citizens of the US who did not support the illegal and immoral selection of our president and did not support the illegal and immoral invasion of another country should feel any moral responsibility for it. I simply don't. That doesn't mean I wouldn't support helping Iraq's people. I don't support the US involvement there and do not feel that I should pay Halliburton and other US companies.

[mbartko]

8. It's not a question of moral responsibility...

It's the issue of having to deal with the consequences.

[Selwynn]

28. It is absolutely a question of moral responsibility

People are dying - the iraqi country is in utter shambles - and we did it. To pick up shope and say "peace out" without any system of aid or rebuilding is the heart of moral reprehensibility.

[Tyler Durden]

9. If you paid your taxes, you supported the war.

My morality says that if I wasn't principled enough to at least chance it with the War Resister's concept of withholding taxes, then I'm at least minimally culpable as an accessory.

Wish it weren't so, but there it is and it torments my conscience on a daily basis. May we make the Bushites feel our wrath right down to the smallest congressional district next November.

[Kamika]

10. yes we are responsible.. tough sh*t

We're americans and America bombed Iraq back to stoneage. So sorry we all need to help rebuild the country.

Also you can be sure if we didnt help out the country would evolve into some extreme anti western islamic state

[NNN0LHI]

11. "would evolve into some extreme anti western islamic state"?

If you are thinking we can avoid that, I suggest you are mistaken.

Don

[9215]

17. Sure we can...he,he...

and turn it into a Christian fundie fascist state. :evilgrin:

Excellent point.

[IrateCitizen]

12. Ummm... that may be unavoidable in the long run

We're americans and America bombed Iraq back to stoneage....

Also you can be sure if we didnt help out the country would evolve into some extreme anti western islamic state.

Now, these two events couldn't have anything to do with each other, could they???

[Terwilliger]

14. and what are we helping the country 'into'

a faux democracy with serious financial problems? RAH TEAM, RAH! :eyes:

[Terwilliger]

13. I'm sorry...you are responsible for everything this country does

just like me, my family, my friends, your family, your friends... "We the people" Everything that's done by this country in the world community has our signature on it. We are responsible.

[9215]

16. I don't feel any responsibility at all

Nor do I feel responsible for bringing the troops home or anything else. They made their bed.....

The only reason I want to see this war end is because the US, as a whole, will suffer and that means me.

I've already done what I could do to inform, protest, etc. Anything I do from here on out is simply charity and my interest is mainly intellectual.

The smartest thing we can do now is let Bush and the BFEE hopefully be destroyed by this disaster, that is to do NOTHING.

Good topic.

[IrateCitizen]

19. Of course you don't, because it's all about YOU

Nor do I feel responsible for bringing the troops home or anything else. They made their bed.....

This statement is just plain absurd. The troops all take an oath to defend the Constitution -- but implicit in that oath is the unwritten agreement that the government will only use them for that purpose. While that deal has been broken too many times to count by the government, that does not mean that the troops deserve to be simply abandoned, as you would do.

The only reason I want to see this war end is because the US, as a whole, will suffer and that means me.

I thought that most people were liberal/progressive because they actually cared about others. I know that it's the reason that I am. Apparently I was wrong -- there are liberals who are just as selfish as the ugliest Republicans out there.

I've already done what I could do to inform, protest, etc. Anything I do from here on out is simply charity and my interest is mainly intellectual.

Have you stopped paying income taxes? Have you physically tried to intervene against the MIC in actions like those of the Plowshares campaign? For any of us to say that we have "done what we could do" is blatantly disingenuous. God knows there is still PLENTY more that I could have done, and there are many times I hate myself for not having done more.

The smartest thing we can do now is let Bush and the BFEE hopefully be destroyed by this disaster, that is to do NOTHING.

That's right, because God forbid that you actually get dirt under your nails or are inconvenienced in your personal life at all for the cause of actually caring about humanity. :eyes:

[9215]

23. I guess I should have

mentioned that I am a Vietnam Era Veteran.

My caring about others has been sufficiently expressed. I can't help it if they don't care about themselves and attack those who attempt to inform them.

The people who backed this war, alot of them military families, are now whining and bitching about their decision. The only way this country is going to learn the importance of questioning authority, informing themselves of the issues, etc. is the hard way. Of that I am convinced. Maybe this society will never learn it, but we have already, as a country learned it once in Vietnam.

I don't understand how somebody who believes war is a crime against humanity, as you have stated you believe, can be in the military. Your training is primarily to fight in wars--to do something that you are conscientiously opposed to. Please enlighten me here.

[IrateCitizen]

26. As I mentioned in response to your post above...

My opposition to war and militarism came about several years AFTER I was locked into my service contract. I attended college on an Army ROTC scholarship. I signed my contract when I was 19. Upon graduation (at 23), I had an eight year committment in the Army Reserves or National Guard. So, at 19 years of age, I essentially signed my life away for the next 12 years.

When I signed, I believed in what I was signing up for. I believed that military service was a noble endeavor. I believed that the United States always stood for truth, justice and equality. In short, I was incredibly naive, as most 19-year olds are.

At about 27, I began to seriously question many of the things I had believed before. I began to get involved in the fair trade movement as an activist, and sought to enlighten myself on many of the realities behind the phenomenon referred to as "globalization". This led me to the alternative media, which inevitably led me to Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn and Michael Parenti -- among many others.

To put it mildly, my illusions were shattered. I began to see the utter futility of militarism and violence, as it only exacerbated problems and reinforced selfishness and greed. I began to question more and more HOW I could continue to serve in a capacity that was anathema to everything I believed in.

But at the same time, a part of me kept saying, "Just ride out your time." This same part of me also had feelings of loyalty to the troops who served under my command. So, there was a lot of inner conflict involved.

I should also mention that I am a deeply spiritual person whose faith is grounded in Christianity, simply because it is the faith in which I was raised (even though I'm a UU now). A great source of conflict for me has been the way in which military service -- as you correctly pointed out, the sole purpose of the military is to inflict wanton death and destruction on the enemy -- is in contradiction to my core religious/spiritual beliefs. I guess I'm just another poor, misguided soul who happened to take the Sermon on the Mount a little bit too seriously....

Then, 9/11 happened, and I was just left in shock at the utter insanity and senselessness of the violence inflicted on that day -- as well as the utter insanity and senselessness of the violence that followed in our response. More and more I moved toward seeking a way out -- and discussed this several times with my company commander. Finally, after a good 6-7 months of this, I submitted my intention to file for 1-O conscientious objector status.

There is not a moment that I am in uniform anymore in which I like what I am doing. But since I am following the proper channels right now in submitting my application and going through the investigative process, I don't have much choice but to continue in uniform. I just hope that my application is approved, because if it isn't and I am called up for deployment, I really don't know what I am going to do.

Does that "enlighten" you a bit as to my stance, now?

[9215]

31. Thanks for the reply

Tough decision by any measure.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

22. A hit in the wallet may be exactly what the US needs

If I could wave my magic wand and make it happen, I'd REQUIRE the US to cut a check for every penny for the repair of Iraq. I'd make them write it to the United Nations, who would administer and oversee the repairs.

In this fashion, the next time the dimwit wants to go on a military adventure, people might do a little more thinking about whether they really want to spend the money required. Sure, I wish people would be opposed to war for more idealistic reasons, but they aren't, by and large. So a hit in the wallet, and a hard one, might get peoples' attention.

After all, someone is responsible for all of this crap. Who is responsible. What should be done?

[9215]

24. I agree that hitting them in the wallet is the only way

to get peoples attention, combined with dying in resource wars.

This country has been hijacked by a fascist smirking chimp.

Iraq should be a lesson that goes down in history as a testament to the calamity a democracy faces when its population decides to be complacent, uninvolved. IMO the only way, if there is a way, to get this lard ass population of Prime Time zipperheads off the couch is for them to be faced with the prospect of watching their children die in resource wars.

If we put one zillionth the time and money into developing alternatives to oil as we do in trying to steal it we wouldn't have any of these problems.

[Armstead]

18. Yep

We shouldn't have gone in, but since we did we have a moral obligation to at least help them return to some level of "normalcy."

It'll be a hard lesson for America. But when people start to realize that they can't pay for schools because that money has been diverted to Iraq, at least it may make them think twice about jumping on these imperialist bandwagons in the future.

The responsibility of the anti-war people in all of this should be to point out the fallicies, and say (nicely) "We told you this would happen."

[Selwynn]

27. You should care about human lives.

The reasn why those of us who were against the invation from the beginning should have to pay is becuase we're not jackass heartless assholes so self-absorbed in ourselves that we'll abandon a ravaged country that our nation ravaged and say "well have fun starving to death, we're out of here!"

I dont mind supporting a strategy that transfers support to a multi-national party, but we cannot just abandon the iraq people and leave there suffering and a power vaccum, otherwise in addition to being barbaric, we will also guaruntee a tyrant will fill that vaccum and be as bad or worse than before.

[NNN0LHI]

30. Change a few words and that is exactly the same kind of reasoning...

...I was given that we could not leave Vietnam. And that was all BS too.

Don

[jobycom]

29. We are certainly more responsible than the Iraqis

It was hardly their fault that we invaded. It wasn't ours-- meaning those of us who opposed it--either, but it was our money. It was our soldiers. It was our government. We still drive our cars on Middle Eastern gas. We still run our computers on power derived from oil. Even if we avoided somehow using Iraqi oil or Middle Eastern oil or all oil, we still help to create the energy demand which requires our nation to pursue an energy policy. Even if we don't like the one this particular incarnation of our government finds, we still use the energy it finds.

We are bloody. Our consciences may be more clear, but our hands and souls still carry the stain of blood. I won't make that stain deeper by opposing the use of my money to clean up the mess that my money created.

If my kid breaks something in another person's house, my money goes to fix it, even if I told the kid not to touch it. The solution is to punish the kid for doing it, and make sure they can't do it again. That's what we should do here. Remove Bush from office, and fix the problem he made.

My biggest problem is that Bush's 87 billion dollar plan has less to do with rebuilding Iraq and more to do with further colonizing it. He's the wrong person to fix it. The UN, the Iraqis, or some international coalition (ideally involving someone like Carter) should be in charge of it.

The done part can't be undone, which is why the UN approved Bush's plans to rebuild. Now we need to focus on the rebuilding part, to keep Bush's filthy stain from infecting Iraq even further.