Is the Pope crazy?

[Andy_Stephenson]

There are many things to be said against condoms, and most people reading this have probably said them all. But at least they work. Not perfectly--they slip, they break, they require more forethought and finesse and cooperation and trust than is easy to bring to sex every single time, and, a major drawback in this fallen world, they place women's safety in the hands of men. But for birth control they are a whole lot better than the rhythm method or prayer or nothing, and for protection from sexually transmitted diseases they are all we have. This is not exactly a controversial statement; people have been using condoms as a barrier against disease as long as rubber has been around (indeed, before--as readers of James Boswell's journals know). You could ask a thousand doctors--ten thousand doctors--before you'd find one who said, Condoms? Don't bother.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031103&s=pollitt

[SlavesandBulldozers]

1. short answer

yes, the pope is crazy. So is anyone who still tithes.

[DrWeird]

2. Maybe senile.

I think it was an archbishop who said the whole condom thing. And he's obviously a rotten bastard.

[terrya]

3. The Pope is merely preaching catholic church teachings.

The catholic church has condemned artificial birth control for decades. JPII is just preaching the same old same old.

YOU know how crazy this is. *I* know how crazy it is. Every well informed person out there knows how crazy it is. But not to the reactionary, ultra conservative Purtians in the Vatican.

[sweetheart]

4. the pope is an asshole

He, by his ignorant moralism exacerbates the largest problem facing human kind today.. overpopulation. Like with test populations of rats and such, too many creates strife, fighting, etc... and the pope contributes to these horrible third world conditions in a whole host of nations the world over.

He is more than an asshole, an antifeminist dickhead. He should never win the nobel peace prize, and good he hasn't.... as his population growth will create more wars, starvation and strife than any single leadership policy... what an ignorant fool.

[youngred]

88. the only response to that idiocy

sod off.

[Classical_Liberal]

5. It is the infallibility thing and Humanae Vitae

They have all been crazy as a result of those two blunders. They can't contradict a 1960's pope because he declared Humana Vitae infallible, which has been a doctrine since the 1800s. I don't know where it will end. The priest shortage is hurting the church even more than that.

[Brian Sweat]

16. I heard that in the United States that there are more nuns over

the age of ninety, than under. Is this true?

[Classical_Liberal]

27. I don't know.

.

[EX-CONservative]

62. In France...

They close monastaries and nunneries because no one wants to have those ummm, jobs.

I mean, who wants to be a MONK? Golly. Or a nun? I'm sure many young girls aspire to be the crazy old nun on EWTN.

In France and in Europe, religion is being replaced with a kind of Christian spirituality. The organized aspect of religion is a racket that has nothing to do with God but much more dishonest than just making you turn in your credit card at the pew...

I'm a Christian and I pray. I don't need some guy with a collar to be closer to God. I'm sure good ol' Jesus would agree with me too! ;)

[Classical_Liberal]

67. I don't approve of dissing nuns and monks or priests

I just think that celebacy should be optional, and I don't think it is something most can live with anymore. We live longer today than we did when it was instituted. Family life doesn't involve seeing 3/4 of your babies die. It wasn't hard to get people to except celebacy a long time ago because of things like that. It shouldn't be disguarded though. There is something to the idea that unmarried people can make more commitments to the community. I think it should be optional and maybe only for certain periods of time, like maybe five years.

[Sandpiper]

6. You can count on religious leaders

To say things that are a little kooky, silly, and even offensive from time to time. But teaching that condoms do nothing to prevent the spread of AIDS is just plain dangerous.

I can think of nothing kind to say for those who value dogma over human life.

[ieoeja]

7. I Suspect a Subset of Condoms

Sheepskin condoms are much more comfortable (and expensive) than latex condoms. However, while they are perfectly adequate protection against pregnancy, I have heard they do not protect against HIV. Actually, I think I read it right on the box.

So "good science" can back up the Vatican's statement ... if limited to a discussion of sheepskin condoms. Heck, the Vatican may not even know their source is skewed. If it agrees with their sex-is-sin agenda, don't go exploring too deeply.

[Selwynn]

8. More troubling to me is this:

"they require more forethought and finesse and cooperation and trust than is easy to bring to sex every single time"

AND THAT'S NOT THE MOST TROUBLING THING?

The fact that: forethought, finesse, cooperation and trust are more and more frequently absent or diminished in this world of "casual sex" is nothing short of tragic.

Is the pope crazy? No, just misguided I think. I imagine the thought motivating the catholic take on birth control is a stance against the casual and relationless attitude towards sex. I agree with that stance, but don't believe the way to stand for such principles is the stand against saftey.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andy_Stephenson]

10. Yet again the Catholic Church

proves it is out of the mainstream.

[Padraig18]

11. Why is the Pope not entitled to speak publicly what his *faith* teaches?

He (a cardinal, actually) speaks on a matter of *faith*, and while he may have focused on a relatively small negative about condoms, he ios NOT wrong in what he says. Condoms DO break, and abstinence (which is what the RCC teaches) is, in fact, the only 100% effective method to stop the spread of HIV, except in monogamous realtionships between 2 HIV-negative parteners.

[Andy_Stephenson]

12. The Church is teaching in Africa that

condoms are laced with AIDS fer Chrissakes. Condoms are needed to stop the spread of that terrible disease.

[Padraig18]

13. Link?

That's the first time I've ever heard that.

[Classical_Liberal]

17. There was a story in the guardian.co.uk on this

in the past few days. Do a search at their site.

[sangh0]

19. So what?

"The Pope" is NOT "The Church". Furthermore, the article didn' say "the Church" is doing that. It said that some preists were doing that.

[Classical_Liberal]

24. It said a bishop was telling people condoms had holes

That is an official of the Church. Sorry. I am not a Catholic Basher. I also recognize when they do right. I loved it when they made the concilliatory remarks toward Jews. Liked their stance on the war. Didn't go ape shit over mel Gibson's movie, but when they spread ignorance officially. I will protest, and it IS a political issue.

[Tinoire]

14. Animal tissue condoms are commonly used condoms in Third World countries

and animal tissue condoms are definitely permeable to the AIDS. Trojans makes a brand called Naturalamb that's pretty widely distributed. Plastic condoms too also are permeable to the AIDS virus.

They also still use linen condoms in poor countries and I think we can all imagine the permeability there.

Latex condoms are the best though I would NOT be surprised to find out that, in the interests of corporate greed, the latex condoms which fail quality controls are unloaded onto Third World countries. This would be nothing new...

After that you still have the problem of oxidative deterioration, shelf vulcanization and localized deterioration.

Not everyone is as lucky as we are or can afford higher quality, stringently tested products. I would really love to take a few DUers with me to these countries just so you could get an idea. It's NOTHING like America. I wouldn't trust even the best quality, most rigidly tested condom, if it had been sitting out in the hot sun of an open market for days, weeks, months? It's really day and night. We've got to start understanding that conditions are different all over the world. I wish DUers happy travels through the Third World. The experience is shocking but really eye-opening.

More here:

The condoms packaged in only plastic cellophane deteriorated much faster than did those packaged in plastic-foil laminates. The decline in air burst pressure and volume from the air burst test were significantly higher for cellophane-packaged condoms, indicating the occurrence of oxidative deterioration in those condoms (p< 0.0012). This suggests that cellophane packaging is permeable to oxygen and thus may not prevent oxidative deterioration of condoms from occurring. A gas analysis of the two types of packaging found that oxygen content was consistently higher in the cellophane packages. (PATH)

A study focusing on the shelf life of condoms, conducted by PATH in conjunction with the FDA and FHI, found that condoms stored in impermeable, sealed foil packages have a shelf life beyond five years, even under tropical conditions. The study found that unpackaged condoms stored at high temperatures showed sharp decreases in air burst properties (both volume and pressure), rendering the condoms unfit for use within a three- to six-month period. (Free)

Currently, most studies by manufacturers of latex condoms that are naturally aged indicate that the shelf life of these condoms can be as long as five years, as long as they are not lubricated with spermicides. Spermicides have a shelf life of two to three years, however, thus shortening the shelf life of spermicidally-lubricated latex condoms.

Following a recent FDA ruling, condom manufacturers in the U.S. will be required to support their shelf life labels with laboratory test data. Beginning in March 1998, the labeling of latex condoms produced in the U.S. must contain an expiration date based upon the results of physical and mechanical testing performed after exposing naturally-aged and accelerated-aged condoms to varying conditions.

<snip>

http://www.fhi.org/en/RH/Pubs/booksReports/latexcondom/recentadvances.htm

[Classical_Liberal]

18. Unless they specify animal tissue condom it is a sin of omission

sorry. Saying they are laced with aids is lie, even if it is lie to prevent what the deem sinful. The church can object to this for promoting non married sex if they want, but they shouldn't lie to do it. The Catholic Church should not stoop to being antiscience like the fundy churches. The fact that they aren't is one the reason I have maintained respect for them.

[sangh0]

21. The Church doesn't say that

condoms are laced with AIDS. Some ignorant preists are saying that, but it's not the Church's position.

Some priests have abused children but that doesn't mean "the Church" condones such behavior

[Classical_Liberal]

25. A Bishop said condoms have holes. That is a representative of the Church

.

[sangh0]

28. Be honest

The Bishop doesn't speak for the Church. Repeat the opposite as much as you can, but it won't change the truth

[Classical_Liberal]

30. I am honest. If the Bishop said use condoms the Church

would give him a once over, for spreading advise that is against church teaching. So they obviously view him as an official spokesperson of the church.

[sangh0]

32. Be honest

the Church doesn't give anyone the "once over". In fact, they don't use violence against anyone. The Pope AND The Church promote non-violence.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. A once over implies disapline not necessarily violence

He would lose his job as Bishop if he said things like that, or perhaps he would be silenced, like some liberal theologins have been as recently as the early nineties.

[sangh0]

36. Not true

Several RC priests have condoned the use of condoms without being disciplined in any way.

[Classical_Liberal]

38. A bishop is not just a priest

He is an official spokesperson for a diocese. He is part of the church governing body. Many theologins and have been scilenced for this. Theologins and Bishops cannot teach things which are considered infallible doctine.

[sangh0]

42. A bishop is also not "the Church"

and "a diocese" is also NOT "the Church"

And the idea that condoms are or are NOT "laced with AIDS" is NOT a part of the Church's infallible doctrine.

[Classical_Liberal]

44. you are confused

and I don't have the time.

[Andy_Stephenson]

48. A priest is a representative of the Church...

wouldn't you say?

[Classical_Liberal]

66. Priests are not bound by the same theological scrutiny as the bishops

which is why far more actually support people using birth control than preach that condoms are laced with aids, atleast in the US.

[Tinoire]

51. Do you happen to have the direct quote?

I would be interested to see exactly what he said because, contrary to popular DU opinion, I do not believe these Cardinals are stupid. Religious yes, firm in their convictions yes, stupid no.

[arcos]

56. quote...

<snip>

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact." "

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

<snip>

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

[arcos]

78. kick!

[Classical_Liberal]

65. Who said liars were stupid

anyway arcos found the article. If they oppose birthcontrol and condoms on moral grounds fine. Just don't lie about it. This can't be justified even by Catholics.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. thank you i am so so sick of all these IGNORANT knee jerk catholic bashers

sprewing crap

[Padraig18]

55. I'm sick of it, too

It's odd how, when the subject is the RCC, tactics and accusations that would shame a freeper are suddenly OK. The total and complete *idiocy* of even *expecting* that the RCC would teach OR preach anything contrary to it's dogma is mind-boggling!

WTF don't you folks 'get' about Roman Catholicism and ANY method of artificial contraception? You're surprised by this position, or did it just provide another opportunity for a content-free bash at the RCC? :wtf::grr:

[Classical_Liberal]

64. Opposing contraception doesn't justify lying about it

.

[Padraig18]

68. Lie? Show me the 'lie'?

Condoms are *not* 100% effective in stopping the transmission of the HIV virus--- they have a failure rate, etc.

I happen to be RC, and i think the Church *should change* it's position on several issues, but to expect the Church to say anything positive about condom use is a bizarre hope, in and of itself.

[Classical_Liberal]

74. It is a lie that latex condoms uses for prevention of aids has holes

The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact." "

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

<snip>

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. Kudos

We so rarely agree, I wanted to give you props for a well-researched and informative post.

[Tinoire]

52. Aw shucks Muddle- May we have more :)

Thanks

[Classical_Liberal]

15. it wasn't him that said it. It was an African Bishop

The bishop says their are holes in the condoms which is a debunked myth.

[Beer Snob-50]

20. The Pope is not crazy...

he is just reiterating the Catholic belief that birth control is wrong. the only ones who are supposed to follow his belief are those of the Catholic Faith. And yes, I am a Catholic who doesn't quite follow the Popes reasoning on this one.

[Nobody]

71. All but two members of my family are Catholics

and they all use birth control, some methods are of the permanent variety.

The Catholic HS I went to had a science and religion teacher that gave us the lowdown on birth control: how to use, failure rates, how to combine methods to make it more effective, oh and by the way the Church says it's wrong.

Almost every Catholic I know (and with my background, I know a lot) ignores the anti-birth control doctine. Most are also pro-choice.

Individual Catholics have always made their own choices that are personal to them.

I think the hierarchy is out of touch with reality, but what do you expect when they all have to be celibate males who have a history of encyclicals declaring that you have to have as many kids as you can (later amended to as many kids as you can afford) and that being married and deciding not to have kids is selfish. (that last was taught to our class by our sociology teacher)

[Loonman]

23. Vatican has always been anti-contraception

Do you need the Vatican's permission before putting one on?

I don't.

[Classical_Liberal]

26. The vatican has not always lied to promote it's views though

. Such behavior is rightly criticized.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

31. I would hope the church and I could agree that lying is bad

.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

35. How am I lying about he church?

?

[sangh0]

37. You claimed the Bishop

spoke for the Church

[Classical_Liberal]

41. Yawn!

He does. prove otherwise.

[sangh0]

43. I dont have to prove it. You already did

in your post #38:

"He is an official spokesperson for a diocese. "

So which is it? Is the bishop the "official spokesperson for a diocese" or the "official spokesperson for The Church"?

[Classical_Liberal]

45. Are we a democracy or a republic?

What dumb logic. Do robins have feathers or red breasts. Do dogs bark or wag their tails. how do the mods miss your bullshit?

[Loonman]

47. Jeepers, it goes like this:

Novice
Acolyte (Brother)
Deacon (Monk)
Priest
Monsignor/Pastor (Chaplain)
Auxiliary Bishop (Abbot)
Bishop
Archbishop
Cardinal
Pope/Patriarch

[Padraig18]

69. Thank you!

To say that this *one bishop* speaks for the RCC is akin to saying that the chairman of my county board speaks for the US. :eyes:

[Classical_Liberal]

77. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo is the guy that said it. ARe you seriously going to tell me he ain't a rep of the church.

[Speed8098]

82. Ummmmm

What about a Senator, or a Congress Rep? Are they reps of the US?

Same goes for Bishops.

FWIW, I'm a lifelong catholic educated in catholic schools and I am totally disgusted at the primitive ignorance displayed by my church.

We are NOT living in the middle ages any longer. The RCC needs to be more progressive.

[arcos]

57. Yes, HE IS AN OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON...

"The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom."


He is the President of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family... isn't that OFFICIAL????

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

[Liberator_Rev]

39. Catholic Bishops don't speak for the Church., Sangh0 does !

Sangh0 is the last word on things Roman Catholic and don't you forget it!

[youngred]

89. really ray?

I thought you were

[donco6]

46. One can only hope the next one . . .

. . . might be a bit less intolerant.

Small hope at that.

[DemBones DemBones]

49. Everyone needs to read Tinoire's excellent post about the

realities of the poor in Africa and condom availability. And note that Katha Pollitt was very careful to specify LATEX condoms in her column.

Can condoms protect against HIV? Sure, IF they're used properly, IF they're used during every sexual encounter (oral sex included), and IF they don't leak for one of a variety of reasons. (see Tinoire's post)

If hypodermic needles are rinsed and re-used in Africa, do you suppose condoms are also used improperly?

A folk remedy for AIDS in Africa is for the infected man to have sex with a virgin. In order to be sure of a girl's virginity, men are raping babies and very young girls. Do you think such uninformed and desperate men are likely to use condoms properly?

Condoms are not having anywhere near 100% effectiveness in preventing the spread of HIV in educated and affluent populations -- do you really think they can be effective in populations that are neither educated nor affluent?

Abstinence IS 100% effective in preventing transmission of HIV and other STDs, as well as preventing pregnancy. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that abstinence should be practiced by anyone who is not married and that married people should have sex only with their spouse. If everyone followed that teaching, the spread of HIV and other STDs would cease. (Pregnancies would also decline significantly, contrary to the old canard that the Catholic Church prohibits contraception just to create more Catholics.)

So we're faced with the choice of advising people to practice abstinence, knowing that most won't, or advising them to rely on condoms, which are effective in theory but fallible in practice. Given the choices, I think it's obvious that it's the situation that's crazy, not the pope or any other clergy who preach abstinence and not the people who preach condom use. There is no perfect answer to the tragedy of AIDS in Africa.

[Classical_Liberal]

50. Since only latex condoms are recommended to protect against aids

the sin of omission was really on the part of the church, not Katha Pollit. This is very sad to me. The churches are needed in Africa to fight this, particularly in mining camps in south africa, which are single sex and encourage prostitution to service men seperated from their families. The churches should try and stop these practices, however no cooperative efforts can occur if they insist in dishonest about safe sex. That creates unecessary hostility, with african governments that are definately in crisis now. If they don't want to recommend safe sex because of the prohibition against premarital sex and contraception fine, but that doesn't mean they should lie about it.

[donco6]

53. So it's OK to spread lies rather than attempt to . . .

. . . educate people regarding the truth?

<snip>
On the BBC Panorama program "Sex and the Holy City," Lopez Trujillo explained, "The AIDS virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." That latex has holes or pores through which HIV (or sperm) can pass is a total canard. A National Institutes of Health panel that included anti-condom advocates examined the effectiveness of condoms from just about every perspective, including strength and porosity; according to its report, released in July 2001, latex condoms are impermeable to even the smallest pathogen. Among STDs, HIV is actually the one condoms work best against.

Nice try, but attributing positive motives to the Church when it's obvious they don't exist is dishonest.

[Padraig18]

70. EXCELLENT post!

It shows knowledge of the subject matter AND of the cultural realities in Africa. How refreshing to read an *informed* analysis, rather than the normal 'content-free' RCC bash that is the norm here at DU.

:toast:

[Malva Zebrina]

54. Obviously, the concern is not for the health of a society

and, in view of the history of the church over hundreds of years, this is nothing new. People have suffered and died, because of the inabililty of the church to let go of outdated and barbaric precepts and refusal to recognize the benefits of science. One must be prepared to die if they disobey. I know there are people here who profess to be Catholics and I am puzzled. I do not understand how one can profess to be a member of this church, and at the same time, pay no attention to the teachings or the leaders. Tell me, how does one reconcile that in their moral and ethical mind? For me, it meant leaving this barbaric mindset in favor of truly and freely loving humanity and doing all I could to help it with compassion. That meant I could not subscribe to Catholicism. I would really like to know how one who betrays the teachings consistently, as in the matter of birth control, and who has, in effect, revised their religion to suit themselves, still can profess to follow the religion--how does that work?

[Padraig18]

59. It's called fighting from within. n/t

[Classical_Liberal]

61. The church is not antiscience, they are not promoters of creation science.

but they definately spread unscientific lies today, and it is sad. As for why I stay, I believe they will change eventually. If you've moved beyond the church to loving all humanity why do you berate those who stay?

[Malva Zebrina]

72. I am not berating

I stated why I could not stay and wonder how anyone else reconciles the apparent disjointment and dissonance of having to change the listed faith precepts of Catholicism yet still call themselves Catholic. To me they seem more like protestant Episcopalien. If I said you all were stupid idiots for being Catholic, you would have a case here to charge me with berating Catholics. You are a little too sensitive of your decision to change the rules of the sainly Pope and Bishops to suit yourself? I don't understand how anyone can profess to be a Catholic, yet not practice Catholicism--that was my point. It all seems a little too disingenious to me.

[Classical_Liberal]

75. I don't think catholicism is the bad shit that some catholics have done

that's why. I don't consider them basic precepts either. I think it is weird to go to a catholic bookstore and request maleus maliforum, and pretend like they are trying to cover up their history because they don't sell the damn thing. The episcopalians didn't leave the church over ethical reasons. Just nationalist ones. My Irish ancesters had their land stolen for not converting to that faith. As I am not English, I don't have the time for them.

[creativelcro]

58. THE POPE IS JUST DEMENTED. NOT CRAZY

[EX-CONservative]

60. He's too pooped to Pope

The Pope is a spent force waiting around to die.

The man running the Vactican right now is Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. he's the Vatican's version of Brother John Duncan.

With the Pope out of it, Ratzinger has his middle ages mentality forced through by a Pope that can barely sign his name.

The way the ultra-right forces use Pope John Paul II is not unlike how Lott and Co. treated Thurmond for a meat puppet.

[REP]

63. Not Crazy - Just Evil

Individual Catholics as a group are not, but what the RCC preaches often is. This is yet another example.

Any institution as old as the RCC is bound to be corrupt, and corrupt it is. This is of course no reflections on the lay people of the church; it is not the faith that is rotten; just the institution.

Pollitt has sinned doubly in the eyes of some; first Kucinich, and now this evil lie from the church. How dare she!

[BonjourUSA]

73. He wishes the future European constitution brings up the christian origins

What an archaic view of the world !

[youngred]

90. It's not just him

and there is a christian basis to much of what has happened in Europe (hell it was the deciding issue for over 300 years, and ruled life for 1,000). However, I don't think it belongs in the EU constitution

[Room101]

76. The Pope is a Molester protector. F*CK HIM !

:mad:

[youngred]

92. and that has what to do with the topic at hand?

oh, yeah, nothing.

[FireHeart]

79. I was browsing the channels...

and stopped in a recent episode of "COPS"...in which one law enforcement officer was telling a "john" that a condom will not prevent AIDS in any way. He said, (paraphrased) "You can't argue with facts".

go figure.

[CoffeePlease1947]

80. A lot of you agree with the KKK--I thought most of you were against that

Guess I was wrong :shrug:

Mike

[REP]

81. Wrong Yet Again

The KKK has 'mystical' anti-Catholic beliefs, and they wish ill on individual Catholics, which is evil. Critics of the RCC - the institution, not the faith - see a powerful institution using its power and influence unwisely, or as I see it, using it for evil. Telling poor, undereducated people that are dying of AIDS that condoms do not prevent the spread of infection, and to say that from a position of authority and being one of the few avenues available for food, education and healthcare is evil. To insist that people die for the antiquated beliefs of an institution, and to do so using lies, cannot be anything but evil. It would be far better if the RCC said that condoms to help prevent the spread of AIDS, although the RCC does not endorse the use of anything that interferes with the transmission of life, even if doing so saves lives ("Better two deaths than one murder" as they say about abortion, even to save a woman's life) and allow people to decide for themselves, with ample opportunity for the RCC to demonstrate why it believes its choice is better. They should remember the doctrine of free will, and allow the people to whom they provide services the chance to exercise this gift from god. It does not have to provide condoms for those who choose to use them, but it must stop lying.

[CoffeePlease1947]

84. What size hood do you wear?

Lying is lying buddy. Knock it off. The Pope is NOT Evil. It stopped oppression in Poland, it knocked down the Soviet Union, and saved the lives of millions.


Mike

[REP]

86. Personal Slur Noted, Darling

No better argument to make than to slut me? Figures. Those who do not have the facts on their side often choose personal slams as a crutch, as was done in your response.

Go back and read what I wrote again, or have an adult explain it to you. Have that same adult explain how the RCC was not the predominant church in the former Soviet Union. As for saving millions of lives - please provide some documentation for that assertion; otherwise I will assume your zeal overtook your integrity once again.

[JVS]

85. Hey Coffee, what do you think of Nazis?

[REP]

87. Or Odessa?

Or Opus Dei?

[jsw_81]

83. The Vatican is spreading lies?!?

I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! </sarcasm>

[Skinner]

91. I'm locking this thread.

I thought it was dead, and then someone decided to resurrect it.

I know the title is direct from the article itself, but I really wish there had been some sort of explanation about it. We could have avoided some of the anger.

Skinner
DU Admin