Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) says war was lie and for oil???

[ShaneGR]

I can't believe what I am reading here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38331-2003Oct16.html

(snip)
The Senate vote was a rare defeat for Bush in the GOP-led Congress, and it came after his intensive personal involvement. It indicated the depth of misgivings about the request among lawmakers of both parties and the constituents who have flooded them with protest letters and calls. Bush has maintained that a loan would confirm Middle Eastern suspicions of U.S. motives in Iraq, but Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) said no amount of money is going to change the minds of those who believe the administration invaded for Iraq's oil.

"I don't want to give in to a great lie. You can't buy your way out of this problem," said Graham, one of the five Republican co-authors of the Senate's loan provision. "You can't take $10 billion of taxpayer money, people are losing their jobs, to buy your way out of a great lie. It would be terrible if the people of this country who have sacrificed so much wound up not getting a dime back."

Bush had sternly warned Congress yesterday not to convert any part of his rebuilding plan into a loan. "The administration strongly opposes efforts to convert any portion of this assistance to a loan mechanism," the White House said in a statement. "Doing so would slow efforts to stabilize the region and to relieve pressure on our troops, raise questions about our commitment to building a democratic and self-governing Iraq, and impair our ability to encourage other nations to provide badly needed assistance without saddling Iraq with additional unsustainable debt."



(snip)
But in the Senate, eight Republicans -- many of them usually reliable Bush supporters -- abandoned the president. They were Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Colo.), John Ensign (Nev.), Graham, Olympia J. Snowe (Maine), Sam Brownback (Kans.), Saxby Chambliss (Ga.), Lisa Murkowski (Alaska) and Susan Collins (Maine).

[davidinalameda]

1. that can't be right

he's one of the biggest Bushies in the Senate

I'm like WTF

[ShaneGR]

5. Amazing isn't it?

I practically fell out of my chair reading that!

[arcane1]

2. has the tide FINALLY turned...?

:shrug:

[sleipnir]

3. YES!

The tide is turning. I bitched long and hard and convinced many of my friends to lobby Brownback and it seems to have worked. He quoted pressure back home as one of the main reasons he voted NO. I feel a slight amount of pleasure today for helping to shift the political winds.

[Bozita]

4. Here are the votes (from the WaPo article)

"But in the Senate, eight Republicans -- many of them usually reliable Bush supporters -- abandoned the president. They were Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Colo.), John Ensign (Nev.), Graham, Olympia J. Snowe (Maine), Sam Brownback (Kans.), Saxby Chambliss (Ga.), Lisa Murkowski (Alaska) and Susan Collins (Maine).

Four Democrats voted against the amendment: Zell Miller (Ga.), Maria Cantwell (Wash.), Daniel K. Inouye (Hawaii) and Joseph R. Biden Jr. (Del.).

There is little doubt that Congress will approve the $87 billion request, even if some of it becomes a loan. Democratic leaders are split, with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) saying she will vote against "an $87 billion bailout of a failed Iraq policy," while Minority Whip Steny H. Hoyer (Md.) said he will vote for it."

more...

[ShaneGR]

10. Interesting part of voting no on the loan ammendment

I actually think I would have voted no on this ammendment. Reason? Because I don't think it's fair to blow a country up, then give them a LOAN to fix the damage.

Look at it this way, if your neighbor blows up your house your going to be pretty pissed. But what if offered you a loan to fix it up? You would be TWICE as pissed.

[SCDem]

6. as a South Carolinian

I am more surprised than ever.... Lindsey Graham was epected as a darn lap dog for Bush.... I never get a response from Graham's office when I write a letter. But he must be making these comments based on someones letters and or what I don't know within SC.

[kayell]

15. Hi fellow SCDem

:hi: I've been hearing a lot of unhappy people here in the Upstate, who are not pleased with the war at all. (mostly about money needlessly wasted that we need here, unemployment, and abuse of military by the BFEE) Most are conservatives as you can imagine in this area. How is it in your area? Do you think there really are enough SCers actually complaining about what's going on that it could be turning Graham of all people on a sane course?

[SCDem]

22. I have no idea

I'm in Rock Hill... the growing suburb of Charlotte NC it seems. I hope that even conservative SCers are complaining but I know I am biased and so have no clue as to what the "average" South Carolinian thinks... seems like people I work with are pro-Bush and used to say pro-Bush stuff but now they are quiet. They won't speak bad about Bush and war but they are not rah-rah-war either. I don't know if it is apathy or dissension.

[kayell]

25. Well, I don't hear much anti-Bush talk either

but I haven't heard ANY pro-Bush cheerleading in months. Mostly they are quiet as you said, or they make short complaints (but these are telling) about the economy, or about the cuts to military benefits. My neighbor is in the reserves and told me he was going into hiding if they called him up. He is definately not a anti-war type, but is very opposed to this war. HE has said that he hates *, one of the very few repubs I have heard say that here. A coworker who has a son who was wounded is terribly disgusted. Lot's of muttering in check out lines, restaurants etc. about who was laid off, who still can't find job etc. Yes - I am a shameless eavesdropper.

[SCDem]

29. Well I have finally slapped my Dean sticker on my bumper

and I will wear my Dean pin into the grocery store or to my doctors office or what have you. Not blatant in your face but just to let people know of the upcoming opportunity (elections) we have to get rid of *. I equally try to acknowledge people who have bumper stickers on their car that say No War or Dean or Kucinich or anyone other than Bush.

I know SC always go to the Repukes but I still just hold out hope that we can slowly by surely increase the voters and increase the democratic vote. We just have to keep active!

[UTUSN]

7. Redrover Redrover, Let Olympia and Susan Come Over

But this is an odd mix---CAMPBELL, CHAMBLISS, & GRAHAM? What's the fix on GRAHAM?---BLUMENTHAL said in The Clinton Wars that after they put BLU through hell and he testified under subpoena, GRAHAM came up to him, told him he did great, and to include GRAHAM in such-&-such CLINTON initiative. What's his game?

[Maine-i-acs]

23. Score two for Mainers!

Susie Collins has been pretty much a Repug suckup but I'm proud of this latest stance.

Olympia married a former repug governor of Maine but she did her district proud (we're losing 200 more manufacturing jobs - Biddeford Blanket is folding to Asian competition)

[wrkclskid]

31. That was the patients bill of rights

That he asked Blumenthal about, Graham's deal is that he is the only repuke to take substantial donations from trial lawyers. This is also why he is the only repuke Senator that opposes caps on malpractice awards (Shelby does too, but because he beleives it is a state issue.) Thus Graham is a whore for the trail lawyers essentially.

[UTUSN]

40. Kick for "Alirighty Then" n/t

[RaulGroom]

8. It's confusing, but that's not what he's saying

He's saying that the people in the Middle East who think we invaded for oil have bought in to a great lie, and we shouldn't be spending money to try to buy them off.

[TacticalPeek]

13. Exactly.

The syntax gets messy, but he's really saying that the 'oil and domination' talk is a lie.

Funny how the 'up is down' world of spin makes such misinterpretations possible, tho.

[MGKrebs]

35. Raul,

I would just like to take this opportunity to thank you for the stuff you have been writing for the front page here. It is really good stuff. I'm glad you are on our side!

:toast:

[kayell]

9. OMG

Hell really is experiencing a cold wave. There was something else recently that Graham said that actually made sense. (I wish I could remember) Graham is usually a total embaressment to this state. Maybe I've entered an alternate universe. Next he'll out himself.

[ShaneGR]

11. LOL

Next he'll out himself.

HAHAHAHAHA. :-)

[kayell]

18. I know, but stranger things have happened, though not many

Maybe he's been hanging out with David Brock.

[lovedems]

12. Saxby????

Wow! The administration must be really pissed off at him! The did a job on poor Max Cleland to get him elected! Wow, I can't believe he turned on them this early! HaHaHa! This is great news! For the first time in 3 years Bush didn't get something that he really wanted! Cheney is probably pissed because I am sure he promised Halliburton alot of that money! LOL

[linda d]

16. trent lott on iraq support

let me also throw out here an interesting exchange from last nite's hardball. trent lott said this was a one-time deal for him to support the bushco's request for iraq funding.

here's the portion from the transcript:

MATTHEWS: That $87 billion, of course, you’re right, of course, includes $20 billion for reconstruction, $67 billion for our troops. How long-how many years will we have to meet that kind of a Bill every year?
LOTT: My attitude on that, Chris, is-and I belief you’ll probably remind me of this a year from now...
MATTHEWS: That’s my job.
LOTT: This is a one-shot deal. I’m not voting for another grant to Iraq. I think we’ve got an emergency situation. We need to move aggressively to get security in place so that we can begin to turn it over to the Iraqis, so we can get our troops home. I’m prepared to do it now.

[jbfam4]

30. Lott warned them

He could cause trouble for them...besides wait til his book comes out. He even just voted NOT to table a Byrd amendment.

[CatWoman]

17. A lot of people here in Georgia are hurting economically

Saxby ain't THAT stupid!! :D

[jobycom]

14. I think you read that wrong

I get that he's arguing against Bush's argument. Bush says that if we make it a loan, the Middle East is going to confirm its suspicion that we invaded for money. Graham is saying (I think) that we can't just give them that much money so they'll stop believing that "lie." The big lie to him, I think, is that we invaded for oil, not the actual lies Bush told to start the invasion.

That's how I read the comments, anyway. Odd statement. "no amount of money is going to change the minds of those who believe the administration invaded for Iraq's oil" to me sounds like he's saying we won't silence Bush's critics by buying them off. Which of course is exactly what Bush is trying to do. Old family tradition.

[kayell]

20. Maybe, but that theory doesn't explain this statement

"You can't take $10 billion of taxpayer money, people are losing their jobs, to buy your way out of a great lie."

[ieoeja]

19. Wrong

I read it the same as RaulGroom, TacticalPeak, and jobycom. Graham is saying that those who believe the big lie -- "we DID invade for oil" -- are going to believe that lie whether we give Iraq the money or we loan Iraq the money, so we might as well loan the money instead of making the American taxpayer foot the bill.

[rucky]

28. The Loan is a lever to get Iraq out of paying Foreign Debt

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/news/7026990.htm

(snip)
The amendment -- crafted largely by Chambliss, Lindsey Graham, Susan Collins, R-Maine, Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, John Ensign, R-Nev., Ben Nelson, D-Neb., and Evan Bayh, D-Ind. -- would declare $10 billion in reconstruction funds a loan, to be forgiven if 90 percent of Iraq's prewar debt is forgiven.

Iraq's foreign debt held by governments is estimated at $100 billion to $130 billion. Saudi Arabia holds most of it, but other creditors include Russia, France and Germany. (end snip)

In other words, as I see it, they're using the "loan" as a way to bat down a bigger bill that's facing Iraq - giving Saudi, Russia, France & Germany a way to "kick in" for reconstruction simply by relieving a much bigger debt hanging over Iraq.

Bush fears, righfully so, that if we try to pull that, our "friends" who are owed Iraq's prewar debt will call it in once the oil is pumping. That would be over $100 billion of Iraq's oil revenues going to these countries instead of a) Haliburton b) the Iraqi people (which means that we'll need to be there longer and spend even more $$$ on reconstruction.

Does that sound right?

[goforit]

21. And Geptdhart is first in line to give W all the money he wants!!!!

Geptdhart supports treason!!!

[mrgorth]

34. Agreed

Disgusting.

[Adjoran]

24. I agree with sgr2

It makes no sense to "make it a loan." Iraq currently has NO government to agree to any terms, so WHO would we be "lending" the money TO? Bremer? Rice?

Irrespective of the war question, I have to recall my late mother's frequent command: "YOU broke it; YOU fix it!"

[kayell]

26. Well, I didn't break it, but we know who did

How much exactly are Cheney and the rest of the BFEE worth? Uh, monetarily that is.

[jbfam4]

32. Uh, monetarily that is.

Good thing you gualified it....or you might get a real reaction to What are they worth.?

[kayell]

37. Answering part of my own questions

According to Thomas Edsall in the Washington Post (September 18th edition), one-third of the Bush cabinet tops $10 million in net worth. Most of the net worth held by these cabinet members was gained by investments in oil and oil-related stocks.

This list, according to Edsall, includes:

* Paul O'Neil, Secretary of the Treasury (between $67 and $253 million),

* Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense(between $62.1 and $115.8 million),

* Vice President Dick Cheney (between $22 and $104 million),

* Collin Powell, Secretary of State (between $14.6 and $65.6 million), and

* Donald L. Evans, Secretary of Commerce (between $10 and $47.7 million).

I know I've seen stats on Rice and others, but this was all I found right off.
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:65Pz-1Q70AUJ:www.genderwatchers.org/GlobalizationNews/globalizationNews1.doc+cheney+bush+rice+rumsfeld+rich+%22net+worth%22+millions&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Hey Georgie and Dick, it's time to go rebuild a few schools, restock those hospital supplies, etc. They could work the rest off at hard labor. We'll let Cheney break the small rocks because of his heart problems (he seems to be missing one)

[BattyDem]

27. Guess that means it's official ...

Hell has frozen over! :evilgrin:

[wabeewoman]

33. Whats up with Cantwell?

She is supposed to be a democrat but she voted for the war, against the loan and several other questionable votes. This is her first term but she isn't going to get my vote for another if she doesn't start voting like a democrat!

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. No way! Lindsey...kiss Bush's ass...Graham??

Did hell freeze over and no-one told me???

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. An intelligent Republican.

He knows that the facade is over. He's not going to get caught on the wrong side.

[Maine-i-acs]

39. Wow! That's actually not an oxymoron. (eom)

[Blue_Roses]

41. why is the damn article black-out?

I can't get it to show a damn thing.