Newbie re. Clark/Dean strife

[DeepModem Mom]

Monday night I went to the first Clark meetup in my city. There was a Dean-leaning guy there, and I turned to someone and said, "If he's for Dean, WHY IS HE HERE?" A couple of people immediately said that not everyone there was committed to Clark -- some were there to find out more about him. They didn't want to drive anyone away. I saw their point, but in my mind I began to search for things that were wrong with Dean -- vile things. And then I thought, why am I doing this?

I love Dean. I supported and contributed to him until Clark entered the race. (My reasons for choosing Clark are not the point I want to make here.) I'm just wondering if other Clark and Dean partisans are doing the same thing I was doing -- thinking of reasons to trash the other guy, when both guys are decent men, great candidates, and on the same side of virtually every issue. Think about either of them in comparison to the incompetent fraud who sits in our White House and calls himself a President.

One of the things I like about posting at DU is posting above or below someone with a Dean or Kerry or Kucinich avatar, reinforcing the same general opinion. We're all in this mess the Bushies have made together. "DeepModem Mom" really is a Mom -- and if she had her way, you Clark and Dean kids would stop fighting!

[Hep]

1. Clark loving Deaniac

I was glad he entered the race. I'm confused by the swiping both here and between the candidates. It's getting on my nerves and making me not want to be politically active.

[Rowdyboy]

5. Big Dean fan who'll vote for him in a second

if Clark loses. Hope they are together on the ticket

[AP]

6. That's why CNN/FOX try to create that false impression...

drive down turnout.

[DrBB]

7. That's what it's FOR

Relentless bashing negativity has that effect. Every notice how much right-wing sludge is getting published here in the name of "vetting" the Dem candidates? In aggregate, one of the basic messages reiterated over and again on these forume has been "all our candidates suck."

Thanks for every thread--like this one--that genuinely tries to fight back.

[Padraig18]

15. I'd like to see them together on our ticket!

No Clark bashing from me, and if he wins the top spot, I'll cheerfully campaign for him. :)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

25. excuse me....it makes you NOT want to be politically active???

and this from an admitted "Deaniac"???!!!

Your commitment to the cause is breathtaking in its fickleness. I hope to hell you are not representative of a large segment of the Deaniacs, because if so then we are fucked.

[La_Serpiente]

2. Yeah...totally

There are Kucinich people who come to the Dean meetups, but I'm not sure if they are there for spying or if they are really interested in Dean. I doubt they are, but I could really care less. It's not like we're calling the shots from the national campaign.

In the end, whatever happens, and if Dean loses in the primaries (I have this feeling Edwards is going to do something soon...just a thought) then he/she will get my full support and a lot more from the rank in file.

[Hep]

4. I fear kucinich people, I admit!

Some Deansters in my community had some bad experiences with Kucinich people. They were planning to distribute anti-dean literature at the NC state fair. Meanwhile, Dean and Clark supporters are working together to make sure the NC Dem Party booth is manned. I found that very disconcerting.

[RummyTheDummy]

33. Just ignore the Kucinich folks...

They're as unimportant as their canidate.

[no name no slogan]

36. Yeah, good reasoning

even though DK is an ACCOMPLISHED representative, and a true progressive voice in the US congress.

Of course, you'd probably be the same type of person who would have ignored Gene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy in 1968, since they weren't "important" anyway :eyes:

Smarter monkees, please...

[no name no slogan]

37. For every Kucinich tale of which you speak

I can tell you an equally frightening Dean tale, rest assured. The kid who runs www.kids4kucinich.com was confronted and harassed by a hostile ADULT Dean supporter.

In MN, we've even faced members of our own freaking PARTY LEADERSHIP running down our candidate and spreading false rumours WHILE HE WAS WORKING AT AN EVENT AS A PARTY REPRESENTATIVE. How many other candidates (and their supporters) have to face this kind of relentless crap from people in their own party, much less the media and the right-wingers?


Maybe we get a little hostile sometimes, and I regret that. But you have to understand the bullshit that we put up with from members of our "own" party who dismiss us and our issues out of hand because they don't consider DK "electable". Because they don't like the candidate, they marginalize his issues, too. Which is unfortunate, because none of the other candidates are even TALKING about some of DK's issues!

[chiburb]

3. Yeah, but...

Its like your own kids: do you REALLY make 'em stop fighting? Or just quiet 'em down for a while?

[FrenchieCat]

8. It's not like "kids".......

my persuit of happiness hangs in the balance of how both of these guys behave..........

And who can beat Bush....

Those soldiers out in Iraq will tell you in a heartbeat, it's not child's play!

[seventhson]

9. I spoke with a democratic party insider today

he is way up there.

he said that the mainstream (DLC) want Clark and oppose Dean. They are saying Clark can win but Dean can't. That is the spin.

If the DLC/PNAC crowd want Clark then I am firmly opposed to him.

I have all the reasons in the world to oppose Clark.

I do not think Clark is either decent or a great candidate.

The republican wing of the democratic party supports him and thus it is my duty to oppose him.

It is not out of spite or bitterness or meanness or because I am married to any of the leftier candidates.

Clark is unfit to serve as my president. Kerry is unfit to serve as my president. That is my heartfelt opinion.

So my opposition is based in part that the premise of your question is all wrong: Clark and Dean are NOT virtually the same on the issues.

And Clark's resume makes him, IMHO, a dangerous man.

I do not need to look for things to trash him. There is plenty already.

[wyldwolf]

11. I defy you to show a credible PNAC connection to the DLC...

..in doing so, you will be implicating A LOT of democrats including the Clintons and Al Gore.

Take your best shot, seventhson.

[Eloriel]

20. Go to the PNAC website and look up the 2 letters to Bush on Iraq

They're signed by Will whatshisname (Marshall) of the DLC Policy institute. That's one (or two, depending on how you count them). And I believe there are more.

(Hoping someone will come along with their bookmarks intact who can assist with the other DLC-PNAC connections.)

Eloriel

[wyldwolf]

30. I asked for a credible connection...

Will Marshall is the president of the Progressive Policy Institute, an offshoot of the DLC.

This only shows someone who is connected to the DLC is also connected to PNAC - it doesn't show the DLC is connected to PNAC

This would be like me working part-time for Wal-mart then someone saying the company I work for full time is connected to Wal-mart because I work there part-time.

[Sesquipedalian]

23. why wouldn't it?

Iraq was the first war that Al Gore didn't agressively back. He was gunho for Grenada? That is the ultimate sanity test for me. Anyone who seriously thought Grenada was anything but a circle-jerk is a militaristic freak.

The DLC constantly harps on everyone to be more militaristic, if they have a foreign policy think tank other than PNAC I would expect the only difference of opinion is the amount of fig-leaf that should be given to international consensus in imposing US will on the planet by force.

[poskonig]

12. If your candidate cannot beat Clark,

what makes you think they can defeat Bush, eh? ;)

[Larkspur]

18. If Clark wins under controversial means, Clark will not have credibility

and many of us will again feel betrayed by the Democratic leaders. If the Dem Party barons screw Dean, we may just screw them. How? Not sure yet.

[Rowdyboy]

19. By controversial methods, do you mean

Voting? Because thats how Democrats select their nominee. Everybody gets a vote and they can make their choice. Nothing too controversial here-its worked pretty well in the past.

[Larkspur]

If Clark wins the people's vote honestly, don't have a problem

but if the votes are tampered, i.e. Diebold, or the convention comes down to a close one and superdelegates make backroom deals to put Clark on top and cut Dean out of any power sharing, then Clark will have a credibilty problem with the grassroots.

Clark is not a great campaigner. He's lackluster and aloof. All he has is his military title, CNN recognition, and lip syncing of Democratic platforms.

[Rowdyboy]

27. I agree with your first paragraph completely....

In 1968 the nomination was sullied and a huhge portion of the party ignored. Thats never happened since and I don't expect to see it this time. We'll have a clear nominee by April 3rd (JMO).

In the interests of civility I'll ignore your second paragraph.

[KittyWampus]

34. Clark Speaks To The Best Of People

Dean feeds on anger and is divisive and dishonest.... calling those in Congress who worked to get money to the states cockroaches is just the most recent example.

Clark is a great campaigner... and he's only been at it a month! He'll be amazing in another month's time.

[wyldwolf]

13. yeah, sure, you spoke to a "high up there" DNC insider... sure...

bwhahahahahaha!

[retyred]

39. Well someone was

high....up there, so stop saying that!


CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
"I'm going to give them the TRUTH and they'll THINK it's hell."
So I Built This Web Site
Read The Book

[ozone_man]

22. That's my opinion too,

but it's reassuring to hear it come from someone else. Maybe the DLC realized that Lieberman is a failure, so they inserted Clark.

[KittyWampus]

35. Maybe Wallstreet Decided To Harness The Progressives

and inserted Dean.

He's done a wonderful job of dividing the Democratic Party... he's had lots of practice going back to his early days as Governor.

[Athletic Grrl]

10. Great post DeepModem Mom!

I concur wholeheartedly. The fact remains that we are going to have to back whichever guy (or gal) secures the nomination in order to flush Bush down the drain. I'm sure as hell not going to get pissy if my guy (Clark) doesn't win. I'm going to go out and wholeheartedly support whoever beats him. Bush is going to have a shitload of cash reserves to draw from, our person will not have that luxury, which in my mind makes it even more vital to work together when that time comes.

Welcome to DU, btw. :hi:

[salin]

14. Yea! Perspective!

I hear you - and your perspective is very appreciated! Also enjoyed the colorful way you made the point (indeed sometimes the rhetoric here - dividing folks into camps - does sound like... "what vile things can I think of ..."). DeepModem Mom... I'm not a mom (but an aunt) and I join you in wishing that the kids would stop fighting.

[childslibrarian]

16. I want Clark/Dean, Dean/Clark

I want a lot. I want both of them. They are both outsiders, one strong in domestic affairs, one strong in foreign policy. If these men are really committed to saving our country from the shrub and his neo-con friends they will join forces. It will give the Repubs nightmares and heartburn...and Democrats sweet dreams.

[Larkspur]

17. So far have had no Clark supporters at my Dean Meetup

My reaction to a Clark supporter will be how he/she behaves at my Meetup. If they respect my fellow Dean supporters and me, I'll respect them, but I don't support Clark and my reasons for not supporting him have not changed.

My first personal encounter with a Clark supporter was on the T heading towards the Boston Dean Rally last month, and the Clark supporter started the war of words with me and my fellow Meetup Host from Storrs, CT. He, a male chauvanist, saw 2 Women for Dean supporters, and he thought he could overpower us with his arguments. He did not expect the intense verbal volley in return and left the T alive but shellshocked.

[SaintLouisBlues]

32. Thanks for the Tiger picture

I've never seen one before. I'm sure everyone on dial-up enjoys it as well.

[ozone_man]

38. Do you feed Clark supporters to your cat?

Is that what those red whiskers are about?

[4dsc]

21. Are rpugs afriad of both??

I suspect that the repugs are really afraid of either candidate and they not want to have both on the same ticket, irregarless of Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean.

Dean in 2004!!

[Mz Pip]

24. I try not to let the

personalities of some of the supporters of any of the candidates influence my feelings.

I know a few delightful people who think Bush is swell. I know some obnoxious creeps who support a variety of Dem candidates. I used to support Dean, now I support Clark. So it goes.

Our Clark Meet Ups initially had folks who were on the fence about either another candidate or Clark. We've welcomed them all because we are all out for the same thing - defeating Bush.

I too, am bothered by the using of Rush type talking points to bash any of the Dem candidates. I can easily envision whoever our nominee may be, coming out of this nominating process so bloodied by all the trash talking and infighting that Bush won't have to spend 10% of his 175 million dollars to defeat him in the general election. All he will have to do is create an ad showing what each Dem candidate used to attack said nominee and the electorate will be effectively turned off.

It's interesting but DU is sort of a microcosm of what is going on in the campaigns to date. It ain't pretty and it ain't productive.

MzPip
:dem:

[Skwmom]

26. Sorry, I don't agree that Dean is honest and decent.

He's lied about the other candidates on numerous occassions, his own record and positions, and is nothing but a slick, phony politician. He's called democratic members in congress "cockroaches," acts arrogant and smirks like Bush. Dean is hardly presidental material.

[w4rma]

28. Skwmom is parroting lies and exaggerations (n/t)

[xultar]

29. Can't we all just get along....

Let's not do the repugnations work for them. If we dig up the dirt then they won't have to. Hopefully which everone does not get the nomination has the strength for the party to stand as VeeP.

A Clark-Dean Dean-Clark ticket would be ORGASMIC!

[salin]

31. To the few who couldn't resist the opportunity

to emulate the behavior described in the starting post of this thread...

Is it too much to resist this behavior - on even a single thread? Have you lost all perspective? Are there not enough flame wars - that you could place your fighting words there? Geez.

I was sorry to see the few desecrations on this thread. But glad to see the overwhelming receptivity to the points made by DeepModem Mom.

[Kool Kitty]

40. Hear, hear!

I find it amazing that most of the bashing posts against any of the candidates has people repeating the arguments against each candidate that the TV press-whore-repugs say. People that wouldn't give republican ideas five seconds' worth of time in their heads seem to take anything said about Dean-Clark-insert any favorite candidate here and run with it like it was gospel truth. After the candidate is finally chosen, how will we all get along? Some really miserable words have been thrown. Please remember that we are all on the same side. The ultimate goal is to unseat Mr. Bush. Let's not destroy each other in the process. By the way, welcome, DeepModem Mom. :hi: