Conservatism is a sick fraud, a madness!!

[9215]

The Conservative ideal may sound benign until you find out the crazy things Conservatives believe and do. Did you know that most of the child molesters in this country are conservative and many of them are clergy? Most people who murder with guns are conservatives. That conservatives love war and killing for their "GOD"in Iraq and other places for their taskmasters, but are squemish about abortion. That most sado-masochistic killers and torturers are highly religious and conservative? That conservative politicians fornicate, steal more money, despise the Constitution and want to replace it with Biblical Reconstructionism, and hate democracy far in excess of liberals and yet vociferously condemn a liberal who does even a small part of what they do regularly (Gingrich, Livingston, Hyde==in plane site-- went after Clinton, Rush gasbag).

Do you know that these Conservatives constituencies ignore the crimes of their friends and leaders of the cloth when they learn they are violating their own principle of faith? They think it is a sin for people of differant races to marry and that slavery was a good thing and that the Stars and Bars are a heritage to be proud of, while at the same time purportedly being purveyors of brotherly love. Did you know that most conservatives think education is bad? That it pollutes your mind. I have found that conservatives believe that wife beating is OK because the bible doesn't prohibit it and that 'woman should remain subservient to men'; What better way to make somebody subservient than to beat them. That is why they are opposed to spousal abuse laws: 'the work of socialist/communist thinkers' interfering with Christian/Conservative family values. "Spare the rod and spoil your wife"?

Conservatives beleive that this country should be a theocracy and that the Constitution is the work of the devil; that the founding fathers were a bunch of atheistic devil worshippers. They argue that these devil worshippers seperated Church and State to promote atheism, they do not even know how to identify what a democracy is, much less how to maintain and let one flourish; the two hundred plus year history that has proven the superiority of the separation of church and state; that has resulted in more freedom of religion than any other country has been ignored by 'neo-conservatives' and would be extinguished in a flash for whimsical political purposes and material, yes material profit of their leaders. The puppet/flock are largely poor ignorant people afraid to acknowledge how they get 'bitch slapped' by their cult leaders. Mainstream religion did not used to be like this. Not in any period of time in our history. What happened?

This is what I have learned. I have learned that Conservatives hate equality and justice and relish bigotry and hatred above all else. Their idols are bloated, ignorant specimens of human degeneracy like Rush Limballs, Jerry Falwell and other porcine prophets of religious porn who eat so much that they threaten to explode at any minute. Jimmy Swaggart, Tammy Faye and Jim Bacher, Newt Gingrich and Henry Hyde: adulterers and thieves all walk among and stand above these people and they don't utter a peep in protest. They love Rush because he is ignorant, and bigoted and hateful of education like they are. Limbaughs faith filled audience never dares to ask him a question regarding his views: he makes it very clear through the way he structures his studio and radio show that questions are verbotten. He does this because he is also full, very full of insecurities, vices and other problems associated with ignorance. Like why he changed his name to Jeff Christie and then back again (a blow job in Philly?). Limbaugh squeals like a pig when someone criticises his opinion. He is a corporate profiteer pandering to the fears of a dumbed down population. What happened? What happened is MONEY TOOK OVER!

I have learned that these people who consider themselves versed in the word and practice of the bible which preaches, if you read it, brotherly love, are contemptuous of reason, compassion, and love of their fellow human beings, even their own cult members. They do not forgive or care about any of the principles of behavior in the bible, that they read obsessively in small groups, if it doesn't serve the political ends of their taskmasters/cult leaders. They espouse the virtues of immaterial values, while pursuing material goods as if their is no tommorrow. They say things like 'Greed is good' (Ronald Reagan's famous statement), not realizing that Christ throwing the money changers out of the Church was saying, indeed, the exact opposite. Church going bankers charge usury on a loan without hesitation though the bible is opposed to it. Indeed this is the very foundation of much of Capitalist Christianity. They justify charging usury by saying it is to accomodate modern times. But ,oh how they lash out at any post-victorian 'accomodation' made by the rest of society. They compromise their principles at every turn to accomodate their material pursuits. They rationalize all of their own deeds that go against biblical principle as accommodations. I guess adultery is an accommodation with the temptations of our modern mass communication age with cleavage and cocks at every turn' except for those other than Christian/Conservatives of course. How ludicrous and utterly hypocritical, how pathetic and wasteful to spend ones time and energy in such inane, asinine, circuitous behavior patterns.

I have learned conservatism is nothing more than a yearning for power and that the imps of conservatism are so full of hate that they will do anything for their puppet masters to get them into power (Read David Brock: "Blinded by the Right"). They condemn and in all likely hood would execute someone who disagrees with them if they had the chance; the rule of law be damned.

They hate 'infidels' and love corporate puppetmasters, they hate social welfare, but think that corporate welfare is a godsend. They condemn social activism, but see nothing wrong with the Mafia moving among them, especially in the Catholic Church. The Vatican accomodated the Nazis after WWII to further capitalism and in cahoots with the CIA (Christians in Action). In sum they ignore all of their own hypocrisies, all of them, and roundly and vociferously denounce others who show the slightest diversion from the primrose path of the formers design.

An axiom of religious participation: Any behaviour is tolerated as long as you express a belief in God.

Their contempt for reasoned discourse, study and hard mental work have left them in a self induced state of paranoia and thinly diguised xenophobia that threatens to unleash their wrath at any moment. If this specie becomes extinct and the history is written accurately by some alien species that ventures this way in the future it will be determined that not bombs, or earthquakes, or asteroids or other earth shattering phenomenon as the result of 'Divine Intervention' caused it but that internecine strife as the result of religious conflict and mindless hatred did it, by stopping at every turn any attempts at peace and reasoned human communication. Ask yourself, WHO tries to turn this country into a theocracy?

How they remain ignorant in the midst of so much intellectual opportunity is truly a miracle, a masterpiece of ignorance,selfishness, greed and avarice, cowardice and moral turpitude while claiming to hold the moral high ground. This ignorance is maintained by the flock spending all of their waking hours, when not employed for material gain, reading a bible among 'friends' and trying to out do one another in the 'who is the most religious' game, while at the same time condemning institutions of higher learning. Cult leaders push their members to ever increasing acts of self denial and religious fervor, while undercutting through device and deciet any meaningful, wholesome and intelligent communication between members. Those who dissent are ostricized or purged. This is done at a time in someones life when they are emotionally and spiritually vulnerable; instead of recieving much needed support and guidance they recieve exploitation and manipulation disguised as the former. This is done largely through non-verbal communication and pulling the emotional rug out from under the person when they have hit the bottom of their emotional dive. At a time when someone needs to find themselves they are being molded into a drone for some cult leaders profit. The inevitable result of so much bible thumping is a cult mentality of people who are in complete denial of the self. All feelings are denied and sources of those feelings are externalized. The leader only needs to point at an 'enemy' and the flock follows without question: Nazism/Fascism by any other name. All individual perceptions of reality is subsumed in the group; it is easy to spot these kind of people they have a very poor sense of humor, or none at all. They are contemptuous of articulate communication: this is vividly illustrated in their contempt for writing clearly English and spelling correctly. They do not know how to take it easy and they are very uncomfortable in nature, which evokes primal feelings; something they are in denial of. The world is viewed in black and white, right and wrong. There intellect is limited.

They are then ready for the crusade: all they need is an enemy to satisfy their needs. Who will it be today?

The miracle is that this can be accomplished in the midst of other worldviews.They are, in sum the exact opposite of what they say they are: believers in Christ, the Bible and God, but rather puppets of capitalist adventurers who loath them more than any purported enemy. These puppets mouth anything they think that their taskmasters will like. The more adept ones apply their own limited creativity to please their leaders, while they proclaim to be pleasing 'God'.

These people filled with their atavistic fear of living, growing and the complexities and challenges of life are bound and determined to pollute everything else around them with this fear and ignorance and do it under the banner of religion.

What a joke, what a mockery they have made of their God and his Son. What a sad and sorry lot of fools they became.

Forever an avowed atheist,
9215

[loudnclear]

1. Sounds like you nailed it!!

Or rather you nailed 'them.'

[liberalmuse]

2. Wow. Well said!

I can't argue with anything in your post, having experienced firsthand the nuttiness that passes as 'conservatism' these days. I live in Utah, and was raised by a certifiable, religio-conservative nutcase. You wouldn't believe how many of my friends or the women I've met here over the years who have been molested by their fathers or some other relative, or have had to deal with finding out a relative had been molesting their daughters--I kid you not. It's all a fasod. Hey, but that's okay as long as things look good from the outside. Those attracted to right wing ideology are what I call, 'The plastic people'.

[9215]

60. Good reply and thank you.

I'd like to hear more people with personal experiences like this.

[quaker bill]

3. True, the movement is anti-christian

But not everyone who describes themselves as conservative has fallen off this deep end. Many are only on the perifery of the cult. Some can be helped.

Ashcroft though, what a classic whack job. The man "annoints himself with oil" (actually crisco) before taking the oath of office.

That, my friend, is truly out there.

[opihimoimoi]

4. Conservatives are fooling America including themselves

Madness lives

Come, we look for Sanity

[9215]

8. I meant to thank you

for helping vets as you mentioned at another thread that I lost track of. I am a Vietnam Era Veteran. :toast:

[9215]

7. There are good people in churches

sure, but there were also good people in Nazi Germany and that didn't do any good.

[Funkaloyd]

5. Evidently, hypocrites are on both sides of the political spectrum

Did you know that most of the child molesters in this country are conservative and many of them are clergy? Most people who murder with guns are conservatives.

Way to go and use the same generalizing logic as conservatives who argue that "blacks are bad because half of all prison inmates are black."

[Skittles]

12. um

that analagy makes no freaking sense

[Francis]

6. What a crock

I am sickened by the sweeping denegration of anyone that isn't in lock step with your idealogy
Most repubs are decent caring hard working Americans who have no less genuine beliefs than yours or mine.
Most dems also fall into that category
Then of course there is the lunatic fringe inhabited by Rush et al
And then of course there's you to even things up

[Skittles]

11. don't you get it?

RABID NEOCONS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE REPUG PARTY YET THOSE SO-CALLED "DECENT CARING HARDWORKING AMERICANS" STILL *VOTE* FOR THEM. WTF DOES THAT SAY???????????????????????????????????

[9215]

27. That about sums up the prob

There were good/unaware members of the Third Reich too, but they were still, knowingly or otherwise, Hitler's enablers.

[Minstrel Boy]

62. I wish I remember who said it:

a Democratic congressman last year: "Don't you understand? These aren't normal Republicans!"

[Swede]

15. There is nothing wrong with being a conservative.

They have a different mindset than liberals but they are not evil per se. The relegious right has taken over the Republican party and all their wingnut mouthpieces feel free to attack. These are dark days,but the pendulum will swing.

[Character Assassin]

19. Thank you, friend

May others eventually become aquainted with reason as well.

[number6]

51. I Agree

they are not evil per se, but I think there are very few
actual conservatives( ones that believe in the Constitution
and Bill of Rights) the rest are corupted with the
neo-con crap from the establishment pshycophants from
Fox n Rush , the AM radio sewage pit....ect

[George_Bonanza]

9. I think you're referring to neo-conism and the current Religious Right

Is there anything in a conservatism doctrine that specifically states that they have to uphold Christianity above all others? Or that corporate greed and international oppression is desirable?

[Skittles]

10. AN EXCELLENT READ

Susan
Forever an avowed agnostic

[9215]

16. Thank You

It is a doctored rant.

[neebob]

13. I don't disagree with your judgments

on certain individuals, but you're applying them to a very large group of people who call themselves conservative and have a range of beliefs that's just as wide as that of those who call themselves liberal. "They think this, they believe that" reminds me of a certain skinny blonde.

[Octafish]

14. What 9215 and Elbert Hubbard said.

Thanks for putting it into words, 9215! The modern conservative is just interested in what the British royals and their stooges have always wanted: Power, Property and Profit.

Definition of Conservative:

A man who is too cowardly to fight and too fat to run.

— Elbert Hubbard

[9215]

20. Definition of a Conservative:

"A man who is too cowardly to fight and too fat to run".

As Character Assasin would say:

"Please cite statistical data and quantify your claims with empirical evidence." :eyes:

[Character Assassin]

21. Having stood and fought most of my life, I've always preferred this one:

"A conservative is one with both feet firmly planted in mid-air."

But then, I actually value intelligent discourse and not the self-serving blatherings of rejects from freshman year Poly Sci 101.

Knowing your enemy is the same thing as knowing yourself.

Suckers walk.

[9215]

24. Don't you ever rant dude?

Go for it!

[Character Assassin]

29. I'm not a ranter, I just crush a lot

Ranting is a hallmark of those who cannot think, those who are unable to act upon or in opposition to that which they hold as important or fundamentally violated. It indicates a lack of intellectual effort. Mental laziness. Failure.

There is a certain level of discourse that, once surpassed in depth, defames the website and the cause of those who maintain it. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen on occassion.

There is a catchphrase, "Fight the good fight" that is far, far too often forgotten by people who actually haven't gotten their hands dirty and their faces bloodied, either in the real world or rhetorically.

The truth, and nothing else, ever, is what matters.

All else is empty electioneering.

[Fla_Democrat]

35. Wow

that's profound.

"Ranting is a hallmark of those who cannot think, those who are unable to act upon or in opposition to that which they hold as important or fundamentally violated. It indicates a lack of intellectual effort. Mental laziness. Failure."

It sure puts a lot of things in focus. I'll have to add that one to "Profanity is the common crutch of the conversational cripple" and "A pipe gives a wise man time to think and a fool something to put in his mouth.".

Now, where did I put my pipe? :smoke:

[Character Assassin]

43. Smoke 'em if you got 'em

Or swear all you want to.

Now, where did I put my pipe?

I can't help you there. But I do have a few ideas....

[Fla_Democrat]

48. Nah, can't do it.

Or swear all you want to.

I've tried. :evilgrin:

It's a curse of being a two finger typer. I may speak a bit rough, and think it, but by the time I peck it out, I think better of it.

BTW, found the pipe, but I'm out of soap bubbles. :shrug:


Oh well, don't mind me, continue your present discussion, it's more interesting. :yourock:

[9215]

57. mental catharsis/rant

Mental illness is often indicated by those who cannot cathart. I've seen it so many times as a counselor. They used to be called "manipulators" in psychologists lingo, unable to share true feelings, emotionally decietful and or closed up.

You see expression of the feelings as I did in this rant as a weakness, a failure, when the opposite is true. Catharsis is beneficial to sound mental health: punching, screaming in a pillow, confronting a surrogate significant other, ranting, writing down your ideas, whatever.

IMO this process of catharsis is the antithesis of religious dogma and ritual brainwashing as so prevalent in conservative arenas like fundie churches. The denial of feelings can lead to neurosis and then psychosis. It is manufactured madness.

It is obvious from the other responses here that there are differing opinions on my topic and what it signifies. Yours seems to be in the minority.

[Character Assassin]

70. I think an example from literature is appropriate here....

Mental illness is often indicated by those who cannot cathart. I've seen it so many times as a counselor. They used to be called "manipulators" in psychologists lingo, unable to share true feelings, emotionally decietful and or closed up.

Sure. Then again, there are those who do not get upset to such a degree that they need some sort of catharsis.

You see expression of the feelings as I did in this rant as a weakness, a failure, when the opposite is true. Catharsis is beneficial to sound mental health: punching, screaming in a pillow, confronting a surrogate significant other, ranting, writing down your ideas, whatever.

You did not indicate in the original post that you were using this piece to vent your spleen, so to speak, or that it was some sort of relief valve for your psyche. Without such a declaration, you can expect to be called on the factual issues relevant to what you wrote.

IMO this process of catharsis is the antithesis of religious dogma and ritual brainwashing as so prevalent in conservative arenas like fundie churches. The denial of feelings can lead to neurosis and then psychosis. It is manufactured madness.

Possibly.

It is obvious from the other responses here that there are differing opinions on my topic and what it signifies. Yours seems to be in the minority.

Have you ever read Cyrano de Bergerac? There is a scene where two louts attempt to embarass him by insulting him in public regarding his (very) prominent nose, something that he himself is fine with, but that has been a source of ridicule for him for his whole life.

He foils the attempt at insulting him by criticizing the quality of the insults themselves, suggesting far more pointed and biting ones that the two oafs could have used, but were (obviously, as he points out) too boorish and uncreative to have thought up on their own. Thus, they are vanquished.

If you're going to go off, go off well, not just in some foaming-at-the-mouth, over-the-top, factually absent manner.

[9215]

72. Bingo! You are above it all always, yea right.

You said:
Sure. Then again, there are those who do not get upset to such a degree that they need some sort of catharsis.

:eyes:

[Character Assassin]

74. You have a penchant for assuming.

Bingo! You are above it all always, yea right.

This is not the case, nor have I ever stated it was.

[9215]

75. Oh, so you do use catharsis?

[9215]

76. You said:

If you're going to go off, go off well, not just in some foaming-at-the-mouth, over-the-top, factually absent manner.

Again, alot of people here saw it for the rant it was and enjoyed it. I'll let them be the judge of whether it was "well" or not.



I said: You see expression of the feelings as I did in this rant as a weakness, a failure, when the opposite is true. Catharsis is beneficial to sound mental health: punching, screaming in a pillow, confronting a surrogate significant other, ranting, writing down your ideas, whatever.

You said: You did not indicate in the original post that you were using this piece to vent your spleen, so to speak, or that it was some sort of relief valve for your psyche. Without such a declaration, you can expect to be called on the factual issues relevant to what you wrote.

It was you who characterized rants as mental laziness, failure whether they were mine or anybody elses, so what I "indicated"
is irrelevant to your pre-judgement of what rants mean.

Then you change your take on catharsis from being mentally lazy and and failure to being "possibly" beneficial. You have no idea how beneficial it is. I have seen people go from on the edge of suicide to leading happy fruitful lives. I've seen kids who were abused, prime candidates for mass murder, get their past out in the open and grow in leaps and bounds. You don't know anything about this if you haven't done it yourself; it is not a spectator sport.

Your whole purpose was to deny me the right to rant by interrupting it with your "intellectualization"--another manipulative technique. What bothered you was the expression of outrage not that some parts of it might have been less than 100% factually accurate. You stifle expression at all your other posts I've seen too with your dissembling bullshit. This shit about me having to make a formal declaration that it was rant is just a way to cover up your own mis-percerption of what it obviously was. In trying to jump on the intellectual high horse you missed the saddle-- the whole point of the rant.

Beyond that you have read other posts and topics by me at DU and know they are not all, or even most of them, rants. You attempt to characterize me as a foaming at the mouth whatever, or :crazy: even after acknowledging the possible benefit of catharsis. You speciously pick one topic and then slam the negative while not acknowledging anything positive. I've never seen you comment positively to anyone on this board, except a lame attempt to befriend those here who didn't like my topic. In this case you just tried to stifle the outrage. This is a prime characteristic of a manipulative person: Always discuss the negative and never the positive.

I could go one bantering this around, but its a waste of time. My opinion of you is that you are a pencil neck, prudish, William F. Buckley or George Will wannabe whose stultifying, overly staid and stale arguments for conservatism are morally, economically and politically bankrupt. Anybody that would equate the deleterious effects on this country of both dems and repugs, is either a closet repug a fool or both. You don't really believe in anything, or care about anything except the sound of your own intellectualizations. You might now try to argue that you are middle of the road, but like Hightower said:

"The only thing in the middle of the road are yellow stripes and dead armadillos."

[Character Assassin]

77. It's no technique. I just recognize know-nothingism when I see it.

If you're going to go off, go off well, not just in some foaming-at-the-mouth, over-the-top, factually absent manner.

Again, alot of people here saw it for the rant it was and enjoyed it. I'll let them be the judge of whether it was "well" or not.

By all means, do. I have my opinion of it and they have theirs.

I said: You see expression of the feelings as I did in this rant as a weakness, a failure, when the opposite is true. Catharsis is beneficial to sound mental health: punching, screaming in a pillow, confronting a surrogate significant other, ranting, writing down your ideas, whatever.

You said: You did not indicate in the original post that you were using this piece to vent your spleen, so to speak, or that it was some sort of relief valve for your psyche. Without such a declaration, you can expect to be called on the factual issues relevant to what you wrote.

It was you who characterized rants as mental laziness, failure whether they were mine or anybody elses, so what I "indicated"
is irrelevant to your pre-judgement of what rants mean.

Not in the least. Without predicating it with something indicating that it isn't to be taken seriously on a factual basis, it could easily be an attempt at a serious op/ed piece.

Then you change your take on catharsis from being mentally lazy and and failure to being "possibly" beneficial.

No, what I referred to with 'possibly' was your statement "IMO this process of catharsis is the antithesis of religious dogma and ritual brainwashing as so prevalent in conservative arenas like fundie churches. The denial of feelings can lead to neurosis and then psychosis. It is manufactured madness." I mentioned nothing about it being beneficial or not.

You have no idea how beneficial it is. I have seen people go from on the edge of suicide to leading happy fruitful lives. I've seen kids who were abused, prime candidates for mass murder, get their past out in the open and grow in leaps and bounds. You don't know anything about this if you haven't done it yourself; it is not a spectator sport.

Thanks, but my background includes plenty of time spent in situations that could easily be described as life or death, and that commonly lead to a great deal of stress in peoples' personal lives. However, 'prime candidates for mass murder' are a far cry from a political diatribe, or 'rant', as you would call it.

Your whole purpose was to deny me the right to rant by interrupting it with your "intellectualization"--another manipulative technique.

Quite incorrect. You failed to indicate that this was not an attempt at substanative political opinion, and, as such, I commented on the lack of factual content, over-the-top rhetorical devices and general inaccuracy of your claims. I never 'deny' the 'right to rant' or the right to voice any opinion, for that matter, to anyone. In fact, at an anonymous Internet discussion forum, it's not even possible.

What bothered you was the expression of outrage not that some parts of it might have been less than 100% factually accurate.

What bothered me were unprovable, ridiculous assertions to support your premise with that you present as fact.

You stifle expression at all your other posts I've seen too with your dissembling bullshit.

Bullshit. You are free to harbor any opinions you wish, express them and expound upon them, elaborate and detail them, do whatever you wish with ideas and conclusion. I 'stifle' no one. I point out factual errors and puerile, inaccurate characterizations of people or ideas when I see them. If you don't like it, that's not my problem.

This shit about me having to make a formal declaration that it was rant is just a way to cover up your own mis-percerption of what it obviously was. In trying to jump on the intellectual high horse you missed the saddle-- the whole point of the rant.

If by 'rant' you mean "hyperbolic, non-sensical, failed attempt at political commentary of any particular coherency or relevance that made you feel good by having gone through it", fine. What are the carthartic benefits of writing and posting clear and glaring factual errors, transparent, mean-spirited mischaracterizations and obvious exaggerations on an Internet forum where commentary is by nature expected, and then getting called on those facets of your writing I just mentioned? One would imagine that for catharsis to be truly beneficial it should based not on lies but truth.

Beyond that you have read other posts and topics by me at DU and know they are not all, or even most of them, rants. You attempt to characterize me as a foaming at the mouth whatever, or :crazy: even after acknowledging the possible benefit of catharsis.

Again, you misunderstand what I was commenting on with 'possibly'.

Further, I have never indicated that catharsis isn't itself beneficial, but rather that ranting, or, more specifically, attempting catharsis through ranting, is dubious because it indicates a lack of ability or willingness to express oneself rationally, avoid hyperbole and factual inaccuracy and otherwise refrain from wildly exaggerated rhetoric.

You speciously pick one topic and then slam the negative while not acknowledging anything positive. I've never seen you comment positively to anyone on this board, except a lame attempt to befriend those here who didn't like my topic.

You evidently need to get out more.

In this case you just tried to stifle the outrage.

No, I called you on some outrageous claims that didn't communicate outrage at all but rather petulant, willful ignorance and proclivity to wildly overstate and mischaracterize facts.

This is a prime characteristic of a manipulative person: Always discuss the negative and never the positive.

I found nothing positive in your post, and I have neither the need nor the desire to manipulate anyone through an Internet discussion group. You, however, seem to be projecting some rather convoluted issues with commentary directly addressing points you made in your original post. I notice you haven't been 'manipulated' into actually addressing them, point by point, which is what I would prefer, so so much for that attributing psychological characteristics to motives.

I could go one bantering this around, but its a waste of time. My opinion of you is that you are a pencil neck, prudish, William F. Buckley or George Will wannabe whose stultifying, overly staid and stale arguments for conservatism are morally, economically and politically bankrupt.

Speaking of intellectually bankrupt, or more accurately intellectually inattentive, I have not made any arguments, staid or otherwise, in support of conservatism, and as such they could not be bankrupt in any sense of the word, because they don't exist.

Anybody that would equate the deleterious effects on this country of both dems and repugs, is either a closet repug a fool or both.

Anyone who would resort to construcing false dilemmas like the one above is not aquainted with logic and the historical record.

You don't really believe in anything, or care about anything except the sound of your own intellectualizations.

You evidently don't read my posts here, although you claim to have done so. As for any intellectualizations, don't let them frighten you into never answering direct questions to you when you haven't the ability to back up what you actually said. It could be a learning experience for you.

You might now try to argue that you are middle of the road, but like Hightower said:

"The only thing in the middle of the road are yellow stripes and dead armadillos."

I would never try to argue that I'm middle of the road. Again, this is simply more evidence that you are unfamiliar with my posts at this site.

[Francis]

22. Is this the same message board

that was attacked by ditto heads last week when the board was ablaze with limbaughs quotes of posts onto the board
Where are the "we are not intolerant" posts. where are the "He took one kook post out of context and hyped it up.
Well, this post needs no hyping
great month to go into rehab

[Character Assassin]

17. Whatever you do, refrain from thinking, as it requires too much effort

The Conservative ideal may sound benign until you find out the crazy things Conservatives believe and do.

(Rubbing hands together gleefully) This ought to be good.....

Did you know that most of the child molesters in this country are conservative and many of them are clergy?

Please cite statistical data and quantify your claims with empirical evidence.

Most people who murder with guns are conservatives.

Please cite statistical data and quantify your claims with empirical evidence. I can tell you from personal, professional experience that your statement is laughable. In the extreme.

That conservatives love war and killing for their "GOD"in Iraq and other places for their taskmasters, but are squemish about abortion.

There is an argument based in principle against abortion. I do not agree with it, but it seems you are unfamiliar with it.

That most sado-masochistic killers and torturers are highly religious and conservative?

You're getting boring and predictable. Please cite statistical data and quantify your claims with empirical evidence.

That conservative politicians fornicate, steal more money, despise the Constitution and want to replace it with Biblical Reconstructionism, and hate democracy far in excess of liberals and yet vociferously condemn a liberal who does even a small part of what they do regularly (Gingrich, Livingston, Hyde==in plane site-- went after Clinton, Rush gasbag).

There is equal corruption and personal moral failings on both sides. There is equal disdain and rape of the Constitution on both sides. Both sides also seem to share your love of poor grammar and spelling.

Do you know that these Conservatives constituencies ignore the crimes of their friends and leaders of the cloth when they learn they are violating their own principle of faith? They think it is a sin for people of differant races to marry and that slavery was a good thing and that the Stars and Bars are a heritage to be proud of, while at the same time purportedly being purveyors of brotherly love.

Which conservative of any importance and/or influence thinks slavery was a 'good thing'. Name names, please.

Did you know that most conservatives think education is bad?

It appears from what I've read so far of your post that you agree with those that do.

Education is a hallmark of classical conservatism, in case you missed it. William F. Buckley is the perfect example of this.

That it pollutes your mind. I have found that conservatives believe that wife beating is OK because the bible doesn't prohibit it and that 'woman should remain subservient to men'; What better way to make somebody subservient than to beat them. That is why they are opposed to spousal abuse laws: 'the work of socialist/communist thinkers' interfering with Christian/Conservative family values. "Spare the rod and spoil your wife"?

Without specific examples, it is difficult to respond to what you're babbling about other than to advise you to refrain from ridiculously overarching stereotypes.

Conservatives beleive that this country should be a theocracy and that the Constitution is the work of the devil; that the founding fathers were a bunch of atheistic devil worshippers. They argue that these devil worshippers seperated Church and State to promote atheism, they do not even know how to identify what a democracy is, much less how to maintain and let one flourish; the two hundred plus year history that has proven the superiority of the separation of church and state; that has resulted in more freedom of religion than any other country has been ignored by 'neo-conservatives' and would be extinguished in a flash for whimsical political purposes and material, yes material profit of their leaders. The puppet/flock are largely poor ignorant people afraid to acknowledge how they get 'bitch slapped' by their cult leaders. Mainstream religion did not used to be like this. Not in any period of time in our history. What happened?

Do you even read what you write? ALL conservatives believe that the USC is the 'work of the devil'? How old are you?

This is what I have learned. I have learned that Conservatives hate equality and justice and relish bigotry and hatred above all else. Their idols are bloated, ignorant specimens of human degeneracy like Rush Limballs, Jerry Falwell and other porcine prophets of religious porn who eat so much that they threaten to explode at any minute. Jimmy Swaggart, Tammy Faye and Jim Bacher, Newt Gingrich and Henry Hyde: adulterers and thieves all walk among and stand above these people and they don't utter a peep in protest. They love Rush because he is ignorant, and bigoted and hateful of education like they are. Limbaughs faith filled audience never dares to ask him a question regarding his views: he makes it very clear through the way he structures his studio and radio show that questions are verbotten. He does this because he is also full, very full of insecurities, vices and other problems associated with ignorance. Like why he changed his name to Jeff Christie and then back again (a blow job in Philly?). Limbaugh squeals like a pig when someone criticises his opinion. He is a corporate profiteer pandering to the fears of a dumbed down population. What happened? What happened is MONEY TOOK OVER!

Sigh. Money has always been at the heart of the political process, because money is a multi-faceted, amorphous concept that exists in every vector to power.

There are no honest politicians. There are no honorable politicians. There are just suckers who think that there are. Are you going to 'squeal like a pig' when you see I've criticized your opinion?

I have learned that these people who consider themselves versed in the word and practice of the bible which preaches, if you read it, brotherly love, are contemptuous of reason, compassion, and love of their fellow human beings, even their own cult members. They do not forgive or care about any of the principles of behavior in the bible, that they read obsessively in small groups, if it doesn't serve the political ends of their taskmasters/cult leaders. They espouse the virtues of immaterial values, while pursuing material goods as if their is no tommorrow. They say things like 'Greed is good' (Ronald Reagan's famous statement), not realizing that Christ throwing the money changers out of the Church was saying, indeed, the exact opposite.

How old are you, really? "Greed is good", Sport, came originally from stock speculator Ivan Boesky declaring "greed is healthy" in 1985. It then became "Greed is good" in Wall Street, spoken by the character Gordon Gecko. Ronald Reagan had nothing to do with it.

Church going bankers charge usury on a loan without hesitation though the bible is opposed to it.

No, it's not, and 'usury' is a Catholic concept, not protestant. Not that historical fact would make any difference to you.

Indeed this is the very foundation of much of Capitalist Christianity. They justify charging usury by saying it is to accomodate modern times.

No banker or financier I have ever known or heard of has used that justification. It's justified by profit, Einstein.

But ,oh how they lash out at any post-victorian 'accomodation' made by the rest of society. They compromise their principles at every turn to accomodate their material pursuits. They rationalize all of their own deeds that go against biblical principle as accommodations. I guess adultery is an accommodation with the temptations of our modern mass communication age with cleavage and cocks at every turn' except for those other than Christian/Conservatives of course. How ludicrous and utterly hypocritical, how pathetic and wasteful to spend ones time and energy in such inane, asinine, circuitous behavior patterns.

Adultery matters only to those who maintain vows and/or adhere to a specific faith. There are equal-opportunity violations on both sides of the political spectrum.

I have learned conservatism is nothing more than a yearning for power and that the imps of conservatism are so full of hate that they will do anything for their puppet masters to get them into power (Read David Brock: "Blinded by the Right"). They condemn and in all likely hood would execute someone who disagrees with them if they had the chance; the rule of law be damned.

History, not that you're familiar with it, indicates that power is the operative factor here, not political belief.

They hate 'infidels' and love corporate puppetmasters, they hate social welfare, but think that corporate welfare is a godsend. They condemn social activism, but see nothing wrong with the Mafia moving among them, especially in the Catholic Church. The Vatican accomodated the Nazis after WWII to further capitalism and in cahoots with the CIA (Christians in Action). In sum they ignore all of their own hypocrisies, all of them, and roundly and vociferously denounce others who show the slightest diversion from the primrose path of the formers design.

When you've tired of political sloganeering and grandstanding, using phrases common to university protests, let me know.

An axiom of religious participation: Any behaviour is tolerated as long as you express a belief in God.

Non-sequitur.

Their contempt for reasoned discourse, study and hard mental work have left them in a self induced state of paranoia and thinly diguised xenophobia that threatens to unleash their wrath at any moment.

You have just described the entirety of your own post. You wouldn't know reason if it bit you on the ass.

If this specie becomes extinct and the history is written accurately by some alien species that ventures this way in the future it will be determined that not bombs, or earthquakes, or asteroids or other earth shattering phenomenon as the result of 'Divine Intervention' caused it but that internecine strife as the result of religious conflict and mindless hatred did it, by stopping at every turn any attempts at peace and reasoned human communication. Ask yourself, WHO tries to turn this country into a theocracy?

It is indeed amusing to consider you opining about something being 'accurately written'.

How they remain ignorant in the midst of so much intellectual opportunity is truly a miracle, a masterpiece of ignorance,selfishness, greed and avarice, cowardice and moral turpitude while claiming to hold the moral high ground.

"Mr. Pot? Yes, it's me, Mr. Kettle."


This ignorance is maintained by the flock spending all of their waking hours, when not employed for material gain, reading a bible among 'friends' and trying to out do one another in the 'who is the most religious' game, while at the same time condemning institutions of higher learning. Cult leaders push their members to ever increasing acts of self denial and religious fervor, while undercutting through device and deciet any meaningful, wholesome and intelligent communication between members. Those who dissent are ostricized or purged. This is done at a time in someones life when they are emotionally and spiritually vulnerable; instead of recieving much needed support and guidance they recieve exploitation and manipulation disguised as the former. This is done largely through non-verbal communication and pulling the emotional rug out from under the person when they have hit the bottom of their emotional dive. At a time when someone needs to find themselves they are being molded into a drone for some cult leaders profit. The inevitable result of so much bible thumping is a cult mentality of people who are in complete denial of the self. All feelings are denied and sources of those feelings are externalized. The leader only needs to point at an 'enemy' and the flock follows without question: Nazism/Fascism by any other name. All individual perceptions of reality is subsumed in the group; it is easy to spot these kind of people they have a very poor sense of humor, or none at all. They are contemptuous of articulate communication: this is vividly illustrated in their contempt for writing clearly English and spelling correctly. They do not know how to take it easy and they are very uncomfortable in nature, which evokes primal feelings; something they are in denial of. The world is viewed in black and white, right and wrong. There intellect is limited.

Grew up in a fundamentalist home, did we? Still locking horns with some particular devils, hmmm?

They are then ready for the crusade: all they need is an enemy to satisfy their needs. Who will it be today?

Left=right in terms of crusades. The only limiting factor is ignorance of history.

The miracle is that this can be accomplished in the midst of other worldviews.They are, in sum the exact opposite of what they say they are: believers in Christ, the Bible and God, but rather puppets of capitalist adventurers who loath them more than any purported enemy. These puppets mouth anything they think that their taskmasters will like. The more adept ones apply their own limited creativity to please their leaders, while they proclaim to be pleasing 'God'.

Extraordinary that such a boorish, transparently obvious band of evil, misguided people could accomplish so much and yet be so distinctly sub-human, not even close to your exacting standards.

These people filled with their atavistic fear of living, growing and the complexities and challenges of life are bound and determined to pollute everything else around them with this fear and ignorance and do it under the banner of religion.

Or self-deception.

What a joke, what a mockery they have made of their God and his Son. What a sad and sorry lot of fools they became.

Can I make a suggestion? Have you visited a mirror store lately? It might do you a world of good.

[9215]

23. Gosh!

If dope head, "paragon of virtue", sultan of "sodomy" Limpberger and "Boney Ass Ann" can engage in poetic license and rants why can't I? It ain't fair when the Right Wing fascisti and their sycophants can rant and I can't...It ain't fair I tell ya!!......Sniff, Sniff, hee, hee, boo, BARK! YIPE!

I wants to be like Rushy and Annie only on the Left side.

Dont' you think the Left needs balance in this area?


You never did answer my question I asked you a few weeks ago: Are you a Right-Wing dissembler named Jasocal from the pre-selection message board wars? Your line by line critique is hauntingly similar.

[Character Assassin]

25. Golly!

If dope head, "paragon of virtue", sultan of "sodomy" Limpberger and "Boney Ass Ann" can engage in poetic license and rants why can't I? It ain't fair when the Right Wing fascisti and their sycophants can rant and I can't...It ain't fair I tell ya!!......Sniff, Sniff, hee, hee, boo, BARK! YIPE!

Apparently you're too distracted by your own rhetoric to have noticed it, but of course you can engage in poetic license and ranting. By all means, go ahead.

Just don't be suprised when you get called on chump-change claims and someone requests that you actually back up what you're saying.

I wants to be like Rushy and Annie only on the Left side.

Yes, you make that impression.

Dont' you think the Left needs balance in this area?

Misery loves company and, no, I don't.

You never did answer my question I asked you a few weeks ago: Are you a Right-Wing dissembler named Jasocal from the pre-selection message board wars?

I've been a poster, and an active one, for more than two years here now, coming up on my third anniversery this December.

Your line by line critique is hauntingly similar.

Perhaps, but I understand that if you weren't able to stand to challenges in the past, you're certainly not capable of doing so now.

Glad we could have this little chat.

[9215]

28. Ok, but you never answered my question.

Please, just for the record. Are you now or were you ever a holder of the moniker Jasocal? hee, hee.

[Character Assassin]

31. Well let's just set it straight then, citizen: I am not Jasocal

You dig?

[9215]

39. You never used the name?

Sorry, Don't mean to be picky, but I'd really like to know for sure.

obliged,
9215

[9215]

40. n/t

no post

[Francis]

26. You can

Just don't count on people like me for support
not my style
I will not fault a man or woman for their beliefs.
Intolerance is not part of my make up and I get more than a little ticked of when I read post after post about how stupid Americans are
We are Americans.
It would appear, poll after poll that this country is 50/50 split politically.
that means that your vitriol is levelled at half of the population.
Oh yeah, Join Rush and Annie and Sean, is that what you are saying?
They're actions are so despicable but I'm joining in the debasement of half the population that happen to disagree with my plans and hopes for a better America.
Thanks but no thanks

[Character Assassin]

30. Francis, you remind me of what a true liberal believes

Walk the walk, never just talk the talk.

[Francis]

32. I can get despondent

When I read post after post that doesn't seem to care about our country or people, just so long as we nail Bush to the post, it seems self defeating.
Every day I read what I can only describe as gloat postings about things that have gone wrong.
i have a visceral aversion to george bush, and to the machinery that allowed the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in.
But But But, the pendulum will indeed swing, but not before the cannon have been fed plenty of fodder.
However, I respect the views of many of my friends, and there is nothing like a couple of glasses of wine and a hot debate at the kitchen table.
But the vitriol?

[Character Assassin]

34. An old teacher of mine told me this

"The secret is to have the power, but not to use it" Thus does one transcend the mundane, the immediate concerns and claims of the cheap seats.

But this, as I have learned, only happens on an invidivual basis. There are no exceptions. There are no reprieves.

[shance]

66. Good points Fran.

In the long run, its not just about Bush, the administration, the Democrats or whomever. Self righteousness (and self-pity) can hit any of us, on either side of the spectrum. Its about doing the right things in life, being responsible for our own lives, helping others, being a good, productive person and being willing to face reality and confront things honestly.

Ultimately, its about what I choose to do with my life, and what am I doing to make the world better instead of just griping and pontificating about it.

These days it does get overwhelming, but to give into the overwhelm is to become ultimately a part of the problem.

Thanks. I needed to hear that tonight.

[9215]

42. You said: " Education is a hallmark of classical conservatism,

in case you missed it. William F. Buckley is the perfect example of this."

So how did these classicists turn into a bunch fascist loonies?

Obviously this "Classical Conservatism" ain't doing its job if that job was something other than breeding a shitload of fascists. :crazy:


On Edit: word "job"

[Character Assassin]

44. You made the claim, you make the case....

So how did these classicists turn into a bunch fascist loonies?

Step up to the plate, Professor.

[9215]

46. Oh, so you don't agree that this country is being run

by a cabal of fascist loonies?

[Character Assassin]

47. Once again: you made the claim, Champ. Now make the case.

I might actually agree with you.

But you'll never know until you stop spouting homilies and propaganda and support your position.

G'head.

[9215]

50. "You might actually agree?"

Is your middle name cryptic?

I assumed that you believe that this country is now being run by a cabal of fascists when I asked the question. It is a simple question.


If you don't believe this then would you kindly state what you think the Bushistas are.



PS. You never did answer my question about Jasocal.

[Character Assassin]

54. My middle name is 'anonymous'. Now get to work...

PS. You never did answer my question about Jasocal.

If you can't read English, I can help you.

[9215]

58. disengenuous is more like it.

No, you never did answer the questions, none of them.

Did you vote for Bush?

I'd like to read any critique you have written of the Bushistas, anything.



edited for punctuation.

[Character Assassin]

69. Here's your answer: no.

I assumed that you believe that this country is now being run by a cabal of fascists when I asked the question. It is a simple question.

Assuming is dangerous and, no, I don't believe that.

If you don't believe this then would you kindly state what you think the Bushistas are.

Reactionary idealists/opportunists who have at their head an incompetent figurehead who has exhibited a long-held tendency not to bother himself with the facts, critical thinking or objective analysis.

Glad I could clear that up.

[9215]

64. You voted for Bush? n/t

[Character Assassin]

68. No, I didn't vote for Bush. What a ridiculous question.

[9215]

71. Not a ridiculous question at all!

About dems and repugs you said:

"There is equal corruption and personal moral failings on both sides. There is equal disdain and rape of the Constitution on both sides....

Based on those stated beliefs my question is perfectly reasonable.

[Character Assassin]

73. A more likely conclusion, however, would be that I voted for neither

Which is, indeed, the case.

[AlinPA]

18. Thank you, 9215

Conservatives are indeed a fraud.

[arwalden]

33. Excellent!

Thanks for posting this.

-- Allen

[Andy_Stephenson]

36. 9215

WOW...I am speechless!

[burr]

37. these people have two faces...

the first is what they show to most people, non-political people, and in the general public. Then they have that face which they show only to fellow zealots, at the revival or in the temple, or sometimes to the liberal who they hate and just decide to completely cuss out. Sometimes you see them in the parking lot at midnight, one came up to me and asked what I thought of Clinton and "all those whiners who voted for him." I mentioned he had been out of office for two years, but asked why he brought it up. His answer, "surely you must be relieved that cheater wasn't in office when 9/11 happened!"

They all seemed shocked when I expressed my opinion that Clinton was far more qualified than the insane imbecile holding office today. One whimpered "but we thought u is one of usss!!"

After a lengthy debate with one person in the group, none of them ever brought up politics to me again. But that has been my experience with these people. They express their true feelings only among their own, among nonNazis they make some attempt to appear intelligent..and sometimes even friendly. But this is not the true face of the conservative, but merely the mask which is worn to hide the unbalanced feelings of hatred and bigotry.

They are cowards, and fear what nonNazis will think if they express what they truly believe politically. I call it the freeper syndrome...they act like angels when face to face, but later act like starving rabid rats running in a pack.

[9215]

38. There you go.

Sounds like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

Thanks for weighing in.

I'd like to see more people with personal experiences comment here.

When I was a counselor I often ran into people trying to recover from Right-Wing religious cults/christian churches. The process you hint at here is commonplace.

[burr]

41. exactly..

and what is the deal with amway??? I know most of these nuts are stupid, but do they really think they will rake in profits at the bottom of anyone's pyramid? Talk about an outdated bureaucracy!

Somebody could probably write a political textbook on amway and its relationship to neo-conservative politics...which came first the chickens or the cracked eggs??

[Booger]

45. Out here, in the burbs,

of Kansas City.
It's about as "middle america" as you can get.
It's a fact that many conservatives are biggoted morans.
But, I would beg to differ about the majority.
My neighbors would never guess about my stash in the basement, or my stacks of punk records from the 80's that are down there too.

They are mostly conservative.
Nice people.
Involved in charity work.
Family values type of people. And more power to them for trying to raise good kids.
Many of them don't even really like the George of the Bungle.
They may think his whole foriegn policy is wrong.
But, they're afraid of what's out there in the big mean world.
<this is why I believe alot of people might switch for Clark>
They have voted Repub, and might just continue to do so.
Rightly or wrongly, most of the Democratic candidates are being painted as weak, and too far to the left.
It scares the grannies of the world. And the attacks of "miserable faliure" and the like may appeal to the truly angry, but they might just backfire with the "swing demographic".

I suppose my take on it is that most conservatives are not bigots and assholes. They merely have been sold a bill of goods that is not true from the modern neo-cons. It's not their fault not digging for the truth. The message just needs to be brought to them better.
Which I beleive will happen with whomever gets the nomination. Afte the race has begun in earnest, I believe you will see a kinder, gentler, more "likeable" candidate.

[burr]

52. I'm not buying this!

If you can dig for the truth and I can do it, why can't everyone else do it?

There is an answer to every question, and the truth is out there. The question is who is willing to accept it and who isn't?

If Americans would take bullets for their freedom during the revolution, risk torture and the most painful types of death for freedom when fleeing on the underground railroad, and would endure the brutal treatment of GM and other giant corporations just for the right to organize...educating yourself on the issues of these times should seem like a cakewalk!

[Booger]

53. I agree

But face it.
Most people have their bills paid electronically.
Kids in some form of activity every night. <muvh to the detriment of the family unit around the dinner table>
Too busy.
Just too busy.
And, if they are conservative to begin with, which is what this thread is about, they dig no further than the mainstream media.
It tells them what they want to hear.

For whatever reason Clark is in the race, he is going to grab their attention, because he, well, SEEMS like a republican anyway.

[burr]

55. no-one is too busy to know the facts concerning who they are voting for.

This is why I don't support manditory voting. If you don't care and don't know a damned thing about current affairs or American history...stay at home until you do!

Otherwise vote based on all essential facts. Voting is something citizens should never take lightly, and if any person does...it is they who are the traitors! Traitors to the Constitution, traitors to the free world, and traitors to the American way...

[Booger]

56. hey

I'm stuck in mini-van land because it's where I need to be concerning my 3 year old and school districts.

How it should be and how it is, are two entirely different animals.
I'm just telling you what I see.

If the message were delivered to them, they would listen.
Drive-thru convenience.
Call the shrub a liar and a fraud, and youre preaching to the chior.
It won't win any fence sitting conservatives though.
At least not from what I've seen in the midwest.

[burr]

59. If you don't mind me asking...

what side of the state line do you live on? I understand most of the Democrats in Kansas City live in Jackson County, while most of the Repukes live across the state line in Johnson County.

Even if some people are uneducated and many are sick of politics, this is no excuse to avoid putting in some effort in learning a little about each of the candidates for President. Any person could set aside one hour a week to do this. Even in 2000, I learned all of the positions of not just Bradley and Gore...but McCain, Keyes, Hatch, Forbes, Bauer, and Shrub..ranked from badder to worst IMHO.

For the layman this approach, using just one hour a week...would mean that the individual would become an expert on the 9 Democrats and shrub by Christmas. If this person wanted to learn something about any third-party candidates, this could probably be done before the end of the holidays. This isn't a tax return, a book, or a project at work. It is just spending one hour a week to learn about people that we may be voting for. Is this too much to ask from anyone?

[Booger]

61. I was in Jackson/Mo

Moved in with my girlfriend/wife.
Am in Johnson County on the Ks. side now.

It's pretty much true that the Kansas side is really more conservative.

As for what you say, yes, it is too much.
What is the conventional wisdom?
Some large amount of voters decide who to vote for after work, watching tv, and seeing 30 second commercials.

[karlschneider]

49. Yikes! That is one cool rant!

:D

[9215]

63. I realized something

There are some people here who have shared their personal experiences in dealing with this madness.

I want to thank you all who have done this and encourage you to talk about it with people you can trust. Those experiences can be very traumatizing and it is important, IMO as an experienced counselor, to get up with others you can trust and talk or seek counseling. Call a crisis hotline, it works.

This board is good because you can communicate relatively anonymously, kind of like a crisis hotline, but you still have your board "persona". Anonymity makes the whole process easier.

What makes me barf are these prime time public counselors like Dr. Phil that turn the process into a spectator sport. This, IMHO, is the worse thing you can do, counseling is not entertainment. The people in the audience aren't doing a thing except living vicariously through the people Dr. Phil and others are "counseling" on the stage. He is not a counselor he's an elixir salesman.

Privacy and confidentiality is one of the most important aspects of going through this process.

I hope this helps people dealing with this madness.

[Donna Zen]

65. C=MI

Conservatism equals mental illness.

Proof: they vote against their own interests and know that they are doing so.

[mermaid]

67. Wait A Min...Did I Get This Right??

(snip}Conservatives beleive that this country should be a theocracy and that the Constitution is the work of the devil; that the founding fathers were a bunch of atheistic devil worshippers. They argue that these devil worshippers seperated Church and State to promote atheism, (/snip)

And yet the history revisionists on the right want us to believe that this nation was founded as a christian nation...and that our founding Fathers were all devout Christians?

What gives? they can't actually be blowing hot and cold out different sides of their mouth, could they?? (sarcasm)

(In actuality, Washington and Jefferson were Diests...Adams was as close to Atheist as you could get without declaring himself so...and most of the rest were Quakers....

What gives?