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9-11: Why We Can't Move On

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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 07:55 AM
Original message
9-11: Why We Can't Move On
- We were ordered to 'move on' after the 2000 selection. Okay. Fine. Americans seem convinced that the theft of a national election was no big deal and that we had more important things to think about. (Reality: Most Americans have no idea what the 2000 selection was all about).

- On September 11, 2001 .... three planes were flown into the WTC and Pentagon. For weeks and months before that date...there were literally dozens of warnings from all around the world about an impending attack. And even as the Bushies 'took' office...the Clinton administration and bipartisan committees had issued warnings that attacks were imminent.

- The Bush* administration's Public Relations teams were sent out to convince Americans that these warnings meant nothing and that they had no idea of what was about to happen. But that's a lie. Never before had so many specific warnings been issued from so many varied and reliable sources.

- Americans wanted to believe, HAD to believe that their government wouldn't ever allow something like this to happen. But then a strange series of events took place that seemed more like partisan manipulation than an attempt to find and punish those responsible for 9-11.

- Bush* didn't declare war against those accused of attacking us...he declared war against a noun...a war on 'terrorism'. We were told that America was attacked because 'they' hated us for our 'freedoms' and that such an attack demanded a 'war' that would last for generations. This 'war' would be fought against a list of countries that he referred to as the 'axis of evil'. (You weren't suppose to know there were plans in place pre-9-11 to attack these countries)

- You (should) know the rest of the story.

- But why is it important not to 'move on' about 9-11? It's important because 9-11 changed everything. It transformed Bush*...from what most of the world considered as an 'illegitimate' usurper to a 'popular wartime president'. It transformed a Democratic Republic into a virtual dictatorship...where the people's representatives and free press are subjugated for the duration of perpetual war. 9-11 made Bush* 'untouchable' and put him above the laws of the land. It gave him unprecedented power to conceal information that would normally be open to the public. 9-11 brought us Shadow Governments and secrecy never before tolerated in an open Democratic society.

- 9-11 is the foundation of Bush's* supreme power. It gives him the right of Kings...to be accountable to no one but God. (It's no coincidence that recent stories in the news talk about George* being chosen by God to rule this country.) It gives him the power to take this country to war under false pretenses and not be questioned about those lies.

- It might not be obvious right now...but mere elections and the democratic process is not enough remove a King from power. King George* believes he rules by divine right...as does most of the Republican party and the ruling class. But knowing that all of his power flows from 9-11 provides us a means to defeat him.

- The truth about 9-11 must be told. It's a shame that the truth might not come out until his second term in office.
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Fish Eye Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. excellent post!!!
my 2 cents:

911 could have been awake up call to the moral mind of Americans and other capitalist assholes but sadly it was not....9/11 was the begining of a turning tide for justice.

The war on terrorism will end when justice prevails for then there will be no need for "terrorism"
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Can justice prevail...
...as long as we allow presidents* to have this type of power...even during a 'time of war'?

- What the Bushies are actually saying when they say '9-11 changed everything' is that they have a 'right' (divine or otherwise) to change our form of government and put us forever on a wartime footing.

- All of this is based on what happened to America on 9-11. Expose the whole truth about 9-11 and Bush* loses the power it gave him.
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Fish Eye Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I wish
that I could shar ein your optimism but I think that the american sheeple will just say "oh well" even if the truth is exposed and is not favorable for bush. The truth must be known but I fear that it will not make a difference:(
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joshdawg Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. I agree with you except
that the war on terrorism can not ever be won. Just like the war on drugs. It will cost billions and still drugs and terrorism will still be there.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. What makes you believe they 'want' to actually win it?
- The goal is NOT to win a war against terrorism. The goal is to keep the Bush* government above the law and their empire exempt from close scrutiny.

- Think back. Since the Bushies usurped the authority of congress and 'declared' war...they haven't been held accountable for anything. They've used a 'time of war' to coverup everything from Bush's* desertion from the Guard to Cheney's kickbacks to Halliburton. And now they're using it to coverup the details surrounding 9-11...saying we can't spare any resources as we fight a 'war' on terrorism.
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
35. wrong
Edited on Sat Oct-18-03 09:25 AM by Ardee
Both wars, those on terrorism and those on drugs can certainly be won, if we correctly identify the problem and intelligently pursue a solution.

The war on drugs needs to be fought here in the USA and not in Columbia or elsewhere, it must begin with the decriminalisation of marijuana and the treatment of addiction as we treat alcoholism, as a disease and not as a crime.Education is the key to winning that war, but of course it is based, not upon winning, but upon increasing the budgets of and the power of those 'fighting' that war

The war on terrorism must deal with the reasons for terrorism and seek to end those reasons, such as the more equitable distribution of wealth, the enfranchising of all peoples, working to end poverty ,homelessness, despair, work towards the creation of healthy economies in all nations of the world......what a dream!

edited for clumsy spelling
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. The war on 'terror' is based on the same kind of lie as the WOD...
- The Big Lie of the war on terrorism was exposed when Bush* attacked Iraq instead of those who attacked us on 9-11.

- Why is Bush* continuing to protect those who attacked us? 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi. Funding for terrorists have been tracted from Saudi.

- Bush* isn't fighing a war on terrorism. He's fighting a war on Democracy.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. The sad fact is now
repugs and neocons are going to use terrorism as a campaign issue to avoid talking about the economy, social security, medicare, environment, ect, ect...


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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. The Bushies CAN and WILL blame everything on 'terrorism'....
...and there's a good chance they'll get away with it.

- They'll blame everything from the economy to the quagmire in Iraq on terrorism. This is especially true as long as so many Americans still believe there's a connection between Iraq and 9-11.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Fish Eye Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. could you support
your rhetoric????

doubt it.

hello and goodbye :hi:
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. As long as they can push a War , We don't have to talk about .
The Environment !
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. Tell that to the millions of Americans losing their jobs...
Edited on Sat Oct-18-03 08:58 AM by Q
...and the millions more losing their homes.

- We're at 'war' because the Bushies have much to hide...and it gives them the power to change our country in the name of the 'war on terrorism'. Bush* is using executive orders to make many of these changes...something you and others probably bitched about when a Dem president did it.

- Bush* has perfected the art of 'wag the dog'. War gives him cover to commit war crimes and war profiteering... and cover the trail of neocon corruption since Reagan.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. welcome to DU!
Stick around long enough, and maybe you'll begin to grasp the concept that just because a problem doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's not a problem. :hi:
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. where is the rational point?
Homelessness cannot be measured on the basis of how many people you personally know and what their individual situations might be. It also cannot be measured by whether or not contractors still build homes. Surely this is obvious.

Likewise, actions by the Clinton administration cannot be used to discover the merits of actions by the Bush administration.

And likewise, the tyrranies of Saddam Hussein cannot be used to rationalize a blank check to the Bush administration for invading a sovereign state and killing civilians.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that your "argument" was an effort to distract from the point.

If you are serious at some point, then I recommend not merely trying to get under the skin of people who you presume are your political adversaries, but also leafing through the Geneva Convention and that section of the Contitution that has to do with treaties to which we are signatory. Then maybe we can get beyond the level of sound-byte garbage.
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Serrefine Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. Oh come on.....
Nobody in the administration planned or intentionally allowed 9-11 to happen. Sure agencies were not as attentive as they should have been, and screw-ups took place, but it is ridiculous to claim Bush orchestrated the whole thing for political power. Come on.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Funny...but I never suggested Bush* 'orchestrated' 9-11....
...but all the evidence points in the direction. Sounds like you're projecting the guilty conscience of those who helped Bush* use 9-11 for their own political gain.

- Those like you still believe the Bushies had nothing to do with 9-11 because nothing NEAR the truth has ever been told to the American people.

- Agencies not 'attentive'? It was more than a lack of attention. It was the standing down of those agencies and departments responsible for the protection of the United States.

- And even IF you can't believe the Bushies ALLOWED certain things to happen...it's difficult to dismiss how they've USED 9-11 to advance their political agenda.
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speckledgator Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. must be a
latent idea......hmmmm
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. There's a difference between 'orchestrating' a thing...
...and having knowledge about something and allowing it to happen.

- Before 9-11 the Bush* government stood for nothing except stealing an election. After 9-11...they were a 'wartime' government on a crusade to defeat terrorism worldwide.

- There remains literally dozens of unanswered questions about 9-11. We still don't know why no planes were scrambled to intercept the hijackers. No one wants to talk about why George* flew bin Laden's family and friends around and then out of the US while other planes were grounded. Mum is the word on why George sat around with school children while thousands died.

- Those who have studied the known facts believe that the Bushies allowed 9-11 to happen.
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Serrefine Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. But you implied the administration intentionally allowed it to happen
which is basically the same thing. I don't dispute that they have used 9-11 to justify all their subsequent actions, but I feel your tone is that they purposely allowed 9-11 to further their political ends, which, I think, is preposterous.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yes...they 'allowed' it to happen. This doesn't require 'orchestration'...
Edited on Sat Oct-18-03 08:41 AM by Q
...as you suggested. Only a few people within the admin. had to know about it.

- All they HAD to know that was something was about to happen...stand down America's defenses and then declare a 'war' on terrorism in the aftermath.
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Serrefine Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. That's crazy talk.
Do you really think a president would know the planes were coming and just allow them to plow into those buildings?
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. extreme, but not crazy
It also need not be constituted as specifically as you say.

It could well be that the Bush administration cares about the well-being of its citizens and wouldn't be willing to sacrifice large numbers of them for political gain. However, the evidence at least admits the possibility of the opposite too.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Ahh, it's the old "if he let it happen, he had to know the WTC would...
be destroyed defense".

Here's one from DU May 2002..

Part I - The Story So Far

In a certain large country to the west of one place and the east of another, an ambitious group of southerners manages to convince a large minority of their fellow citizens to vote for their presidential candidate, a compliant cretin with the morals of a rabid mink. Unfortunately, in a winner-take-all democracy this is not enough for him to win, so the mostly southern military obligingly sends in a few thousand illegal absentee ballots to tip the scales and the cretin's gutless opponent refuses to challenge him.

"Whoop-de-doo!" shout the handlers when the cretin dons the crown. The cretin and his handlers are in charge for four long years. They immediately start pursuing a loony right-wing agenda, trucking billions to all their rich friends and putting military leaders and their civilian catamites in positions of power -- long the custom in all banana republics.

But, much to the consternation of the handlers, the majority who actually won the election just won't sign off on their increasingly loony proposals. What they need is what they had in the good old days of a global face-off with a now defunct enemy: emergency powers, the pretext of a massive threat to the nation's security to crush or imprison their enemies, steal still more of the nation's common wealth, and pare down the annoying institution of democratic government to a useless nub.

Purely coincidentally, an old friend of the cretin, who's had a born-again experience and has decided that the great nation to the west of one place and the east of another is Satan incarnate, starts to make plans for an assault on the fortress of evil. Word comes to the cretin's handlers that this is in the works but rather than taking steps to pre-empt it they start top-secret internal discussions (from which the cretin is of course excluded). What if this attack, whatever it is, is allowed to proceed? they wonder.

The cretin's old friend is not a whole lot smarter than the cretin himself, coming from the same kind of rich, over-privileged spoilt-brat background with not the slightest knowledge of how his obsessions and whims and loony opinions affect real people in the real world. All his previous attacks have been indiscriminate hit-and-run bombings of poorly defended targets.

How much damage can this kind of nitwit really do on home ground? "A few casualties, sure," they admit, "but think what a pretext this will give us! A foreign attack on our great nation! Once again we will have a shadowy network of conspiratorial zealots across the world to threaten our security our very existence! Once again we will be able to assume emergency powers -- and then the sky's the limit!"

More...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/05/29_story.html
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. Yes..I think a 'president' that took office against the will of the people
...would do almost anything to stay in power. The 2000 election showed the extent of their corruption.

- Bush* received a briefing in August of 2001 specifically mentioning hijacked planes being flown into buildings. Later...the Bushies said they didn't want to increase security at airports because that would have harmed the airline industry.

- It's a known fact that the Bushies knew somethng was coming. It's also known that they did little or nothing to protect our country as the planes slowly flew towards their targets. 3000 people were sacrificed to give the Bushies the power they enjoy today.
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Filler Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. We don't live in a country that is "by the will of the people"
...would do almost anything to stay in power. The 2000 election showed the extent of their corruption.

- Bush* received a briefing in August of 2001 specifically mentioning hijacked planes being flown into buildings. Later...the Bushies said they didn't want to increase security at airports because that would have harmed the airline industry.

- It's a known fact that the Bushies knew somethng was coming. It's also known that they did little or nothing to protect our country as the planes slowly flew towards their targets. 3000 people were sacrificed to give the Bushies the power they enjoy today.


Sorry, but at the time of 9/11, everything the terrorists used to hijack the planes were legal to bring on planes. And please don't tell me that the US should have singled out Muslims to search before boarding, because you would probably complain about that to. There was almost nothing that Bush himself could have done. Maybe you should lay the blame at the FBI, who are the ones who botched this thing because of not wanting to look politically incorrect by targeting Muslims.

Bush enjoys his power today because the Democrats are so inconsitent and lame when it comes to making any sort of logical arguments. Don't expect that to change by next year if the only argument you here by Dems is "Bush was lying" and "the economy sucks."
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. not wanting to believe is not wrong
as it shakes ones faith in our government and those who run it....While there seems to be some rather puzzling facts re 9/11, mentioned by Q already, I prefer to dwell on the way Bush and company has managed what followed that event, working, not to end the threat to this nation, but to keep us all fearful and patriotic in order to enact legislation, enrich his friends, damage our system of eductaion and our environment,etc. We are less safe in a less stable world today than before the planes came crashing in, more people hate us now than did then, terrorism groups are healthier and finding more converts daily now than then.....this is no accident, this is the result of deliberate policies and actions by our government to ensure reelection and the distraction of the american people from the looting
by Halliburton et al........
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Dissenting_Prole Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
52. Most people will believe a Big Lie
because they themselves would not tell one.

Most people are not prepared to believe a small lie because they themselves tell small lies all the time.

Just ask this guy:

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. I also am of the LIHOP school
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. Read the PNAC Objective's
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Flubadubya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
30. Many think the idea preposterous...
and many are ignorant... aggressively ignorant.

Know anything about PNAC Serrefine? Might ought to check it out. Especially look at the part where the NeoCons wistfully describe the need for a modern day "Pearl Harbor", then come back to this discussion.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
50. Let's assume they were totally innocent.
Why wouldn't Bush/Cheney have been screaming for a complete investigation of what happened? Why wouldn't they want to put the fulling resources and money of the federal government into understanding how this could have occurred? Do they hate America that much?

Instead, they have slow-walked, obstructed, under funded and kept this public investigation as marginalized as possible. 3000 people died on 9/11/01 and they seem to have no interest in what happened that day.....don't you find that strange?

When the Shuttle was destroyed, they called for an immediate investigation and were prepared to spend untold millions to understand what happened. 3000 people died and Bush tries to budget 3MM and limit the time of the investigation..

So if Bush and Chenney were "victims" who were taken by complete surprise (we know, of course, that the CIA had a presidential briefing in August specifically about the warnings), then why have they been the primary obstructors in having the truth understood?

Put another way, are we, as a country, safer today knowing that no one has been disciplined, fired, or held responsible for what happened on 9/11? Or are the same players capable of having yet another "event" occur on their watch?

Gross incompetence or criminal LIHOP/MIHOP....either way, they should be impeached and made to stand trial for this travesty.

Oh, and here is some interesting tidbits from www.cooperativeresearch.org on the thinking of Cheney (and the power players who are creating our foreign policy today) were doing and saying in the 90s-

March 3, 1999: Andrew Krepinevich, Executive Director of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, before the Senate Armed Services Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities: "There appears to be general agreement concerning the need to transform the US military into a significantly different kind of force from that which emerged victorious from the Cold and Gulf Wars. Yet this verbal support has not been translated into a defense program supporting transformation ... the "critical mass" needed to effect it has not yet been achieved. One may conclude that, in the absence of a strong external shock to the United States - a latter-day "Pearl Harbor" of sorts - surmounting the barriers to transformation will likely prove a long, arduous process.

September, 2000: The neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century writes a "blueprint" for the "creation of a 'global Pax Americana.'" The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written for the Bush team even before the election for President took place. It was commissioned by future Vice President Cheney, future Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, future Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Florida Governor and President Bush's brother Jeb Bush, and future Chief of Staff for Cheney Lewis Libby. The report calls itself a "blueprint for maintaining global US preeminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests." The plan shows Bush intended to take military control of Persian Gulf oil whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power and should retain control of the region even if there is no threat. It says: "The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." The report calls for the control of space through a new "US Space Forces," the political control of the internet, the subversion of any growth in political power of even close allies, and advocates "regime change" in China, North Korea, Libya, Syria, Iran and others. It also mentions that "advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool." A British Member of Parliament says of the report, "This is a blueprint for US world domination -- a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world."












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SoFlaJets Donating Member (556 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Ahh come on
there are alot of people who in the deepest part of their hearts truly believ the Bush administration LET 9/11 occur and even so far as possibly aiding these terrorists financially,and figuratively.
Ask yourself a few questions and then do some research as to;

>>Why was the Bin Laden family allowed to leave the country when all other planes were grounded in this country?

>>>Did you know that GW was in business with Salem Bin Laden?(Arbusto)

>>>>That there were plans to attack Afganistan on Bushs' desk the day before the tradgedy was let to happen.

>>>>Who stands to gain by the unending war on terror?Ask yourself why Dick Cheney is still running Halliburton with daily phone calls to Iraq.
>>>>That the VP was rebuilding the oil fields after Gulf war one.

>>>>That the Bush Admin.has blocked the 9/11 investigation at every turn and amazingly James A.BakerIII(you know him"the votes HAVE been counted 4-5 times")is defending The House of Saud AGAINST the victims'families?
>>>>>Why did GWB sit in that classroom READING TO 2ND GRADERS WHEN THIS COUNTRY WAS UNDER ATTACK?Cheney was whisked away by secret service minutes afterwards and immeadiately began to implement his shadow govt.
>>>>Oh yea-that plane that crashed into a Pennsylvania field..that plane was meant to take out Congress 435 congressmen and women and 100 pain in the ass(to BushCo)Senators thank God that was stopped

There are alot more theories and many more FACTS to back them up.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
46. EVIDENCE AND MOTIVE, can the jury think?
">>>>>Why did GWB sit in that classroom READING TO 2ND GRADERS WHEN THIS COUNTRY WAS UNDER ATTACK?Cheney was whisked away by secret service minutes afterwards and immeadiately began to implement his shadow govt."

I agree SoFla.

You don't literally need a smoking gun to prove a crime and convict a criminal. All you need is evidence and motive and a jury that can think.

It is the job of the Secret Service to protect the President of the United States. On the morning of 9/11 they allowed the pResident to continue to sit in a classroom full of children only minutes from an international air port even though they knew that domestic airliners were being used as weapons (by whom, was not yet known). The location of the pResident that morning was public knowledge. The pResident's secretary had whispered, "America is under attack," and yet * was was not whisked to safety or an undisclosed location, he was ALLOWED TO JUST SIT THERE ON CAMERA for nearly a half hour.

GROSS INCOMPETENCE AND DERELICTION OF DUTY ASIDE, there is only ONE rational explanation for this: THEY KNEW HE WAS NOT IN DANGER. How did they know that? Given that 'America was under ATTACK' by an as yet unknown assailant, how COULD they have known that?

During that time another hijacked flight, contrary to National Air Defense SOP, was ALLOWED to proceed into Washinton DC air space and crash into the Pentagon. That flight should at the very least have been inspected by interception but was not. NO ONE has been held accountable for this breach of our National Security. NOT ONE PERSON. We aren't even allowed to ask the questions. Those of us who do are called 'conspiracy nuts.'

EXCUSE ME, but when thousands of my fellow citizens are killed and there is much evidence to show a) those responsible for protecting them has sufficient warning to do so and did not and b) there are many many questions which are not only NOT ANSWERED but are met with obfuscation -- and when it is evident that this administration BENEFITTED TREMENDOUSLY BOTH POLITICALLY AND FINANCIALLY from these events -- I'm sorry, I think you have to be an utter FOOL not to question what is going on.

At the very least they let it happen.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. What if they thought they were getting a hijacking, but instead..
got 9-11 and the detruction of the WTC? What if the players got played?
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. LIHOP !!!
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LunaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
51. That's a comment from someone who isn't informed of the facts
Edited on Sat Oct-18-03 02:49 PM by LunaC
In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. Afghanistan was strategically located between the Mideast, Central and South Asia as well as Turkmenistan, China and Japan. Turkmenistan was a natural gas bonanza but the only export route to exploit this valuable natural resource was through Russia. The road to riches needed alternative pipeline routes but the incessant civil wars in Afghanistan made construction impossible. And so it was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so the golden pipeline could one day emerge through the rubble.

Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan, ostensibly for the "War on Drugs."

In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. The G8 is a meeting of the world's largest industrialized democracies who meet annually to discuss major economic and political issues. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001. The Operation was dubbed "Pipelineistan".

In September 2001, the WTC and Pentagon were attacked and the finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell.

In November 2001, with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "War on Terror" and "The Hunt for Osama" began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting when "Pipelineistan" was spawned.

If you want the whole story (an eye-opener) with detailed source links to the mainstream press, contact shandalia@earthlink.net for a copy of The Stealth Coup.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thwarting the 9/11 investigation
The great Bush teflon paradox is that the things Bush does are so awful, so brazen, and so public, no one dares call him on them.

Bush's team has done everything they could to prevent and thwart investigation of 9/11. The paradox there is that the obviuos implication that the Bushies have something to hide is so scandalous that no one in the media dares to mention it.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. And the RWingers expose themselves as hypocrites...
...when they suggest it was okay to devote years and millions of dollars to 'investigate' a WH blowjob...but 9-11 doesn't deserve as least the same level of scrutiny.

- It's clear that the Republican party wants us to 'move on' and not worry our pretty little heads about 9-11. They can't afford to have the many questions answered and the truth exposed.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. You're right, gulliver: LIHOP, MIHOP or NOHOP
It's the thwarting of the investigation that raises a red flag. And I agree with the original post: the root of Bush's power lies with 9/11. As someone who's lived most of my life as a New Yorker, this is something I feel personally -- that the deaths of hundreds of New Yorkers resulted in Bush's salvation. See my tag line.
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. Cui bono-Who benefits
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1024.htm

The Greatest Mil/Intel failure in USHistory
and who has been punished for it.

But since 911 plenty of people in & out
of Gov't have been swiftly punished
for many things.
Ex- Marine Commander from Little Rock
removed from Command in An Najaf
Reason-Trying to limit Casualties.
Ex -Valerie Plame exposed CIA
Reason-To punish her Husband Amb.
Wison
Ex-Kathy Crowley wanting to interview
Moussaui (still not done)
Iowa Senator Grassley had to intervene
to protect her.
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
25. You are right and that is why:
Edited on Sat Oct-18-03 08:58 AM by jumptheshadow
We need to plan strategically. During the campaign we have to showcase 9/11 families and emergency workers who are demanding full disclosure and are critical of Bush's incompetence. We need to showcase ex-generals and ex-CIA operatives who, in turn, will ask strong, direct questions about 9/11 and its aftermath. Bill Clinton and Al Gore must be very high-profile about what warnings their administration gave to the Bushies.

We must use all of our Internet talents on a grassroots level to counteract the advertising poison that Bush's overflowing money chest will buy. That means all of us -- Dean supporters, Clark supporters, Kucinich supporters alike.

By the way, I personally believe that Al Qaeda and like-minded organizations do want to destroy us. But Bush's arrogant and reactive policies have played into the hands of those who want to see the demise of our freedoms.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Great Idea...take the side of the victims of 9-11...
...and thus attacking the Bushies indirectly.

- But let's not forget that BushCo* actually had a relationship with many of those involved with 9-11. Which is why he sent Baker out to protect his business associates in Saudi.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
33. it's the CROWN JEWEL of their imperial - total spectrum dominance - design
they won't let us forget, which will serve us well in getting the word out. their job is to narrow and distort ours is to broaden and sharpen.

well said Q :toast:


more...
http://bbs.globalfreepress.com/coppermine

peace
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Detractors really need to study the PNAC documents...
...for a clue about what's going on. In these documents....Neocons talk about how they plan to use the military to dominate the ME. They admit in these documents that none of these changes can take place unless an event on the scale of 'Pearl Harbor' takes place. And coincidentally...Bush's* 'axis of evil' is also mentioned in this document...proving that 9-11 was simply an 'excuse' to attack them.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Bush* used 9-11 as a justification to attack Iraq...
...and lied to the American people about there being a connection. Even now the Bushies are suggesting there is a connection AFTER the lies have been exposed.

- 9-11 is the pivotal event that created the 'war on terrorism' and will lead to the invasion of one ME country after another. It matters not that these countries can be connected to the attack on America. Bush* will attack and invade them because it's been the plan all along.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
39. Information to ponder:
1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family.
Feb 13, 2001 – UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale – while covering a trial of bin Laden’s Al Q’aeda followers - reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden’s encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

May 2001 – Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. .

May, 2001 – Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as “an unusually long meeting,” also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI.

July, 2001 – Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia), meet with Taliban representatives in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. Also present are Russian and German intelligence officers who confirm the threat.

Summer 2001 - According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain’s The Guardian, correspondent David Leigh reported that, “U.S. department of defense official, Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian’s Felicity Lawrence established that US Rangers were also training special troops in Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special troops were training in Alaska and Montana.”

Summer 2001 (est.) – Pakistani ISI Chief General Mahmud (see above) orders an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, who was according to the FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Mahmud recently resigned after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI.

June 2001 – German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are “planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.”

Summer 2001 – An Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the World Trade Center in the week of September 9th. German police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not reveal any further information.

August 2001 – The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of bin Laden’s network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals.

Summer 2001 – Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions. This is reported in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired CIA officer.

July 4-14, 2001 – Osama bin Laden receives treatments for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15th.

August 2001 – Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government “in the strongest possible terms” of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings.

August/September, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900 points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is imminent.

Sept. 3-10, 2001 – MS-NBC reports on September 16 that a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden in the week prior to 9/11.

September 1-10, 2001 – 25,000 British troops and the largest British Armada since the Falkland Islands War, part of Operation “Essential Harvest,” are pre-positioned in Oman, the closest point on the Arabian Peninsula to Pakistan. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation “Bright Star.” All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the World Trade Center.

September 6-7, 2001 – 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the UAL puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. http://www.ict.org.il/, September 21; The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal.>
September 10, 2001 - 4,516 put options are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options.

September 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by UAL and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600% above normal. This at a time when Reuters (September 10) issues a business report stating, “Airline stocks may be poised to take off.”

September 6-10, 2001 – Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25% of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the September 11 attacks. http://www.copvcia.com/members/oct152001.html. >

It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks.

Promis was reported, as recently as June, 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden’s possession and, as a result of recent stories by FOX, both the FBI and the Justice Department have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least this summer. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent attacks. http://www.copvcia.com/members/magic_carpet.html; FTW, Vol. IV, No.6, Sept. 18, 2001 - http://www.copvcia.com/members/sept1801.html; FTW, Vol. 3, No 7, 9/30/00 - www.copvcia.com/stories/may_2001/052401_promis.html.

September 11, 2001 – Gen Mahmud of the ISI (see above), friend of Mohammed Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban.

September 11, 2001, For 35 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred – an event that has never happened in history.

September 13, 2001 – China is admitted to the World Trade Organization quickly, after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts.

September 15, 2001 – The New York Times reports that Mayo Shattuck III has resigned, effective immediately, as head of the Alex (A.B) Brown unit of Deutschebank.

September 29, 2001 – The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5 million in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines are unclaimed. This is likely the result of the suspension in trading on the NYSE after the attacks which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when the owners showed up to redeem their put options.

October 10, 2001 – The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and gas to China, is now back on the table “in view of recent geopolitical developments.”

Mid October, 2001 – The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having suffered a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although still weak, and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been averted by a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies for “affected” industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.

www.copvcia.com/members/carlyle.html
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
40. recent developments in the investigation
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-uscomm163496812oct16,0,2328487,print.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-print

By Thomas Frank
WASHINGTON BUREAU

October 16, 2003

Washington - The independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks accused the Federal Aviation Administration of withholding documents and yesterday took the dramatic step of subpoenaing its records about what happened during the hijackings.

"We can't trust them anymore," said former Rep. Tim Roemer, a Democratic appointee on the 10-member commission created last year to conduct the most far-reaching probe of what enabled the attacks.

The commission voted unanimously Tuesday to subpoena records it had already requested after it discovered the FAA did not provide about 20 boxes of materials following an initial request in May.

more...
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
47. The truth might only come out by historians - that's my fear....
sorry - I'm pessimistic.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Stephen Push sounds optimistic
Edited on Sat Oct-18-03 11:26 AM by Cocoa
he called the FAA subpoenas, which were issued this past Wednesday, "a turning point."

<snip>

The decision was intended in part "to put other agencies on notice that our documents requests must be taken as seriously as a subpoena", the statement said.

Mr Push said the White House, the Central Intelligence Agency and the Pentagon and had all failed to produce critical documents. He added that the families were urging the commission to reveal publicly the materials being withheld and to issue subpoenas.



http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059480631419
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. The FAA material is very important to this 'investigation'...
Edited on Sat Oct-18-03 01:06 PM by Q
...as are the 'classified' segments of the initial 9-11 report.

- Which is probably why we'll never see any of this.
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