Stop the Catholic Bashing

[CoffeePlease1947]

I find the remarks about the pope and the people in the church, bigoted, arrogaunt, false, and demeaning.

The Catholic Church is the Largest demonination in the world. 80% of Hispanics are Catholic. 1 billion people are Catholic.

I find it sick that people are bashing on 80 year-olds that have dedicated their entire lives to a cause they believe in.

Yes, the Catholic Church is far from perfect. Yes, they need to advance. But nobody is forcing you to accept the Catholic faith. They are not knocking on your door, forcing their ideology on you.

The Catholic Church donates more money, people, food, and resources to the poor and needy world wide.

Can you really think of NOTHING worse and evil as to bash on than an old man, 33% of the members of the Democratic Party, and an old 90 year virgin women who is now dead?

Really, geez, give it a rest. Did you know some religions force women to be castrated, they slice the clitoris off. Should this not be considered more worse and worthy of a post than an opinion on the use of a condom?

Grow up!

Mike

[George_Bonanza]

1. I agree

I do not see eye to eye with a 100% of the pope's views, like his stance on priest celibacy, abortion, and contraception, but it's ignorance to turn a blind eye to all the great things he's done. Two things I can think on the top of my head is his efforts to bring down the oppressive Iron Curtain, and his leadership in the anti-war movement last year.

What's really ironic to me about Catholic-bashers is that most of them probably abandoned religion in general because of bigotry. Who are the bigots now?

[CoffeePlease1947]

2. Isn't Kerry and Clark Catholic?

I know Clark is when he got married. Kerry is from Massachusetts. I know many many people there are Catholic.

Mike

[JohnKleeb]

57. and Kucinich

[JNelson6563]

73. I disagree with your guess

It has been my observation that the worst Catholic bashers are other so-called Christians.

Those of us who subscribe to no religion aren't prone to see Catholicism as worse than Protestants or what-have-you.

You will find in fact that the strongest hate-mongering comes from former Catholics that have merely changed denominations.

With that said, I too disagree with the Catholic bashing here which is often tied to personal agendas (*coughdefrockedpriestcough*). Frankly I see little reason for discussion of religion here at DU. Period.

If the administrators think it should be allowed to continue then maybe it should have its own forum. Like I/P. Discussions where folks cannot contain their hate need to be removed from the main.

Julie

[LittleApple81]

3. Yes, they are forcing their ideology on people in Latin America

and other places.
They are not the only ones, mind you. Many religions proselitize and establish "missions" that have not strings but ropes attached.

CONDOMS ARE SAVING LIVES so I do consider it criminal to give speeches like that Catholic prelate did.

I have an aunt that in the 1940's (this is in Latin America) married a man who, unbeknownst to her, had syphilis. She did not get the illness but was not allowed to have an sterilization (or get an annulment, the only way to get out of this relationship and stay in the church) because of the church (Catholic controlled country). She delivered 5 children with deformities and suffered a great deal until the man died.

I don't want to criticize the Pope because he is old or believes in what he believes, but when a church manages to produce so much harm through its policies it needs to be criticized.

[CoffeePlease1947]

30. I don't buy your story: I got a better one for you

My Grandmother was born dead. A Nun in the room brought her back to life.

I have a hard time buying that a women was forced to marry and have sex with a man that had a veneral disease. I doubt the church forced her to have 5 children. Did they hold her down and drag her kicking and screaming up the isle to get married? What kind of rope did they use to force her to have sex with the man?

Mike

[LittleApple81]

33. She married without knowing he was sick. SHE WAS FORCED

TO HAVE SEX BECAUSE SHE COULD NOT DIVORCE, SEPARATE, OR GET MARRIAGE ANNULLED. SHE HAD THE BABIES BECAUSE SHE COULD NOT USE CONTRACEPTION. SHE HAD TO HAVE SEX WITH THE MAN BECAUSE THAT WAS HER DUTY AS A CATHOLIC WIFE!!!!

[CoffeePlease1947]

67. This is getting even more far fetched, truly a made up story

Did you know that the church requires over two years, almost 3 year of courting and classes before marriage? You mean to tell me she and the doctors didn't notice over that time that he had a serious illness?

Nor is it required that women have sex with her husband. She has the right to refuse. Rape is against the church.

Also, a man that cannot reproduce is reason to divorce for a women if she wants. If he had that illness, he would fall into that catagory. This may work with some people, but not someone that knows cannon law.

My guess, if there is any truth to this, is that man cheated on his wife and had unprotected sex with one or more other women and didn't tell his wife.

That is not the fault of the Church.

Mike

[LittleApple81]

70. Did you read the date when this happened?

And this was a small town in Latin America. And I don't have any reason to lie.
You have never talked to priests in Latin America.
Or people in Latin America that believe everything a priest tells them.
So I think this conversation is not going anywhere because you cannot allow any truth except yours to affect your opinion of the church.

[Tinoire]

54. Whoooa - talking about forcing their ideology on the people in LA

What shall we call forcing capitalism? Forcing the WTO? NAFTA? GATT? Globalization? Genetically modified foods?

What shall we call plundering their resources and exploiting their labor for our own profit?

What shall we call the banana and such wars that left thousands dead and millions affected?

What shall we call the land theft so we could build our plantations?

What shall we call the revolutions we formented?

What shall we call chopping down their rain forests for .39 hamburgers?

What shall we call privatizing their water? Or depriving them of a living wage?

What shall we call our war on drugs which which we justify spraying their crops and bodies with obscene, disfiguring Monsanto defoliants?

What shall we call the nuns and priests murdered for organizing the poor to stand up against this US-led injustice?

THIS is why they are trying to weaken the Church and demonize it. You think the US media, which is nothing more than the propaganda arm of whatever administration is in power, gives a rat's ass about a few poor people catching AIDS? WE all KNOW they don't- but what they do give a rat's ass about is are the subversive teachings of the Catholic Church that are giving the poor dangerous ideas laced with threatening words such as "dignity" "living wage" "self sufficiency".

The more the media drums it up, the more money I give the Catholic missions who are the biggest providers of free education, health care and social care in the Third World.

[LittleApple81]

62. I have not lived in Latin America for quite a while, but I don't

think the Catholic church is the one spreading the words "dignity" "living wage" and "self sufficiency". The Catholic church I know is allied with the oligarchy. When some of the Catholic priests in my country started deviating from what the Catholic church hierarchy wanted, (they called themselves liberation priests) they were quickly silenced and punished.

They do have missions but if you don't convert you don't get anything. That is what I call strings attached. And the Catholic church is NOT unique in this. The other sects that proselitize in Latin America are not much better.

I do know individual priests and nuns that do an excellent job in providing succor and charity to the poor and downtrodden. But they are not the followers of the Catholic hierarchy.

[LeahMira]

157. That's what I thought also...

The Catholic church I know is allied with the oligarchy. When some of the Catholic priests in my country started deviating from what the Catholic church hierarchy wanted, (they called themselves liberation priests) they were quickly silenced and punished.

After watching the film Romero and learning a little on the internet about Archbishop Oscar Romero.

What country are you from?

Isn't "liberation theology" supposed to be a heresy by Catholicism?

(Do I know? I'm Jewish, but I do admire Archbishop Romero and would like to see him made a saint by the Catholic Church. I read somewhere on the internet that his sainthood is stalled because it would aggravate the wealthy in El Salvador, but who knows how true stuff is on the internet.)

[LittleApple81]

64. And by they way I agree with you on what Western countries

have done to the rest of the world.

[Monte Carlo]

4. Far from perfect? You've got that right.

As a confirmed Irish-Italian Catholic, I find it very disturbing that the Church has dedicated its time and resources to expose the evils of condoms to the world, things that prevent disease and suffering. And why are they? Because they just hate sex in all its less-than-vital forms, and are biased against anything that even resembles birth control. A 17th-century paradigm forced into 21st century life is not gonna work.

Yes, there are things like female circumcision that are very disturbing. But do not think for a second that lets the Pope and the Cardinal off the hook for their prejudicies.

[Tinoire]

50. Is that all the Church is dedicated to or is that all the US media reports

?

What about all the encyclicals Pope John Paul II has written about the evils of unbridled capitalism, rampant materialism and the exploitation of workers?

I can't think of another Western writer or leader who has written or spoken more about it than he has. And he's openly spoken about it.

During his first visit to the United States, he warned people about the dangers of materialism, selfishness and secularism. He went as far as to say we need to accept lowering our standard of living in order to share the wealth with the Third World.

His message didn't play well, and still doesn't. Condoms are just a tripping stone used by the media to exploit your sensibilities and make sure you don't hear the real message- a message which thousands of others are hearing in places like Bolivia where the Catholic Church has been instrumental in helping people realize that they do NOT have to accept the US imperialism that chokes them out of their livelyhood by undoing their workers rights in the interests of US interests.

I am so proud of this Pope and what the Church has done under his leadership. We all know Reagan didn't bring down the Iron Curtain. It was John Paul II, practically singlehandedly.
Who has been pushing the poor to stand up and DEMAND their labor be respected and that they be given a living wage? Again John Paul II and his representatives toiling away in those countries.

Despite the many faults of the Church, I am prouder of it than I am of any other institution on earth.

If the Democratic Party and we, its supporters, are so keen to fight AIDS- why is our battle not against the Drug companies and our obscene system which denies care to the poor, not only of this country but of the world?

I'll stick to admiring the Church which has a much greater vision that doesn't include exploiting the poor or depriving them of their dignity.

===============

When they come to embrace their own form of materialism, capitalist societies can easily be made compatible with the denial of "an autonomous existence and value to morality, law, culture and religion." To the extent that they do, capitalism comes to "agree with Marxism, in the sense that it totally reduces man to the sphere of economics and the satisfaction of material needs."

According to John Paul, capitalism and its ideological partisans forget at their peril that "the mere accumulation of goods and services, even for the benefit of the majority, is not enough for the realization of human happiness," as he writes in Sollicitudo Rei Socialis (On Social Concerns). When this happens, capitalists make an anthropological error no less grave than the one committed by their communist rivals. They begin to strive toward an ideal of "superdevelopment, which consists in an excessive availability of every kind of material goods," which, in turn, "makes people slaves of ‘possession’ and of immediate gratification, with no other horizon than the multiplication or continual replacement of the things already owned with others." Echoing social critics from Jean-Jacques Rousseau to Aleksandr Solshenitzyn and Vaclav Havel, John Paul argues that the "crass materialism" that accompanies "pure consumerism" leads inexorably to "a radical dissatisfaction" on the part of individuals. Beneath the noisy clatter of "publicity and the ceaseless and tempting offers of products," citizens within capitalist societies begin to sense that their "deeper aspirations" are "unsatisfied and perhaps even stifled." They lose sight of the fact that "having" is far less important than "the quality and the ordered hierarchy of the goods one has."

In order to turn capitalism away from its excesses and realize the authentically communitarian potential within it, John Paul tells us that we must raise our sights above mere economic calculation. As he writes, "of itself, an economic system does not possess criteria for correctly distinguishing new and higher forms of satisfying human needs from artificial new needs which hinder the formation of a mature personality." For this reason, "a great deal of educational and cultural work is urgently needed, including the education of consumers in the responsible use of their power of choice." The ultimate end of this education must be the creation of "lifestyles in which the quest for truth, beauty, goodness and communion with others for the sake of common growth are the factors which determine consumer choices, savings and investments." In short, the key to transforming capitalism into a social order capable of solving rather than aggravating the problem of alienation is directing our gaze upward, to a higher common good than economic prosperity.
http://www.policyreview.org/oct00/Linker.html
==============

I like the way Scott Appleby sums up John Paul II as "blazing an alternative path to a more humane global economic condition." It is unfortunate that in America we know nothing about this because our media has preferred to train us to "Catholic Church = no condoms = pedophilia = kooks". I'm proud to be associated with those kooks.
==============================

"Peace is not the product of terror or fear. Peace is not the silence of cemeteries. Peace is not the silent result of violent repression. Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all. Peace is dynamism. Peace is generosity. It is right and it is duty."

"When I fed the poor they called me a Saint. When I asked why the poor were hungry, they called me a communist."

Archbishop Oscar Romero


Individuals often become heroes because of the extraordinary courage they demonstrate. An unyielding determination to do what is right, true, and just became a guiding principle for Archbishop Oscar Arnulfo Romero. He demanded peace, a peace that could only be found in human rights and assurances of basic dignities. He informed the world about all the people who had been tortured, slaughtered, and of those who had "disappeared" in his country, El Salvador. He told the truth, but like many great leaders who have fought for truth, Romero was assassinated. A single bullet transformed him into a martyr. His life was taken, but his voice could not be silenced.

Romero became a beacon of hope in a country ravaged by poverty, injustice, and sorrow. As with many Central American countries, El Salvador was a national security state, a country where the military is accountable to no one and the people are defenseless against tyranny and oppression. There was no peace. In the face of this injustice, Romero took it upon himself to use the Church as a light of hope and to challenge the oppressors.

<snip>

Archbishop Romero soon became the voice and conscience of El Salvador. His words and actions crossed state borders and were heard internationally. His fight for human rights led to his nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. He spoke words of peace, but they were a threat to the tyrannical policies of the government. When the world becomes a witness, it is harder to terrorize, torture and murder.

<snip>

On March 24, 1980 at 6:25 p.m. Romero was performing mass. As he prepared the Eucharist, a shot from the back of the church struck him in the chest, killing him instantly. Romero died, but his words, deeds, and actions remained very much alive.

<snip>

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/peaceheroes/oscar_romero.html

[CoffeePlease1947]

155. Thank you for that wonderful Post Tinoire

:yourock:

Mike

[RapidCreek]

5. Got a question for you Coffee....

Would you give me the dictionary definition of bashing? What exactly does that word mean? As far as the rest of your questions....I'll be more than happy to answer once I have yours.

RC

[CoffeePlease1947]

25. It means to give a smashing blow. n/t

[RapidCreek]

76. I guess I still don't understand...

I don't think anyone is advocating physical harm to the pope, are they? Has anyone here actually issued a smashing blow to the pope?

Perhaps you are referring to the transitive definition 2 : to attack physically or verbally <media bashing> <celebrity bashing>....in the verbal sense. In which case, my next question would be....Do you equate valid criticism with verbal attack?

For instance....Which of the following choices would be a verbal attack and which would be valid criticism? Or are both attacks or both valid criticism?

1. You stink because you have dog shit on your shoes.

2. You stink because you are a fucking idiot.



RC

[RapidCreek]

159. What no answer?

seems like a pretty simple question....

RC

[Khephra]

6. Question

Is it Catholic bashing if anyone says anything against people like Frist and Scallia trying to push their religious views on the rest of the population?

I just want to know where you think the line falls.

[Tinoire]

56. I'm not Coffee but I say no it isn't

There's plenty of justified criticism. I'm also not su sure that people like Frist and Scallia are pushing their religious views because neither one strikes me as particularly religious. They are certainly not doing it in the name of the Church- they are doing it in the name of the Right.

[niyad]

7. hate to tell you this, but catholicism is NOT the largest

denomination in the world-- where did you ever come up with that?

and guess what? people are allowed to speak their minds, to call the church on its homophobia, its sexism, its blatant refusal to enter into the 21st century.

people here speak out against the hypocricy and problems in all denominations, not just catholicism, and I notice you aren't commenting about that.

oh, while we are at it, would you like to comment on the murder of John Paul I?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/10/18_fire.html

[niyad]

9. sorry that was the wrong link-- this one talks about the murder

http://www.wovoca.com/controversies-murder-john-paul-1.htm

[SiobhanClancy]

14. If the Catholic church is not the largest...

then what is? I'm open to correction(always),but I think the poster was right about that.

[niyad]

17. try this site, which lists denominations by name, country, etc,

truly a most enlightening site:


1. Christianity: 2 billion (please note that this includes all xian denominations, catholic, protestant, orthodox, lds, and jw's amoung others)
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
5. Buddhism: 360 million
6. Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
7. primal-indigenous: 150 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 14 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 6 million
14. Jainism: 4 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 3 million
17. Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
18. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
19. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
20. Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
21. Scientology: 600 thousand
22. Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand





http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

[SiobhanClancy]

20. The same site says...

Catholics are the largest religious body...

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_romcath.html

[CoffeePlease1947]

21. That doesn't work if you understand that there is more than one

denomination of Islam. 1 billion Christians are Catholic. When you divid up the demomination of Islam, you are left with Catholics being the largest. 25% of people that reside in the US are Catholic. Catholics are also the largest growing church. Mostly because Hispanics are largly Catholic and the largest growing population.

Mike

[niyad]

140. that means that 75% are NOT catholic, doesn't it? catholicism

may be the largest single denomination, but it is NOT the majority of people in the world, a slight difference of emphasis

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. And furthermore...

Catholic bashing and slandering is so much the reddest of meats for the frothers and the fundies that anyone who opposes that pack of fools, idiots and thieves should be very uncomfortable with the sport.

Constructive criticism is something that should not be in short supply for the RCC. But there are limits, past which it all becomes the same old and tired Uncle Milty Cooper "Whore of Babalon" crap.

We can do better and should.

Please note: I am nominaly an Episcopalian and a pretty bad example of one, to boot.

[ima_sinnic]

10. sorry, but that 80-year-old IS affecting me, and the whole world

--because he IS in such a position of power, he has a responsibility to use that power wisely. his "edicts" affect me (who despises organized religion, if you must know, as a mindless crutch) because they so adversely affect the rest of the world, which is connected to you, me, and everybody. And as far as those "donations" to the poor: if they were to send all the gold (robbed from around the world) in the vatican through a smelter and truly use it to help the world, that WOULD make a difference. the wealth hoarded by the vatican is obscene. what hyposcrisy! and it so well marks the CC as just another tentacle of greed-head politics as usual. and well do i remember the priests in Central America who were officially ostracized for their "radical" attitudes toward the poor. so sorry if that's not PC--as an institution the CC is vulnerable to criticism just like any other. spare me the sanctimonious crap.

[CoffeePlease1947]

26. I know what you mean, the Pope bashed in my apartment door and

ripped off my condom right before I had intercourse. It really sucks!


Mike

[Kelvin Mace]

11. Sorry, I am Catholic

and the church has betrayed me and every other Catholic on the planet. As long as rank and file Catholics continue to to support the church with the their presence and money, *nothing* will change.

No amount of good deeds can erase the unrepentant evil the church has committed and is committing.

The next Pope will be even more right-wing than this one.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government (and the church) Since 1984

[LittleApple81]

13. I am with you (but I WAS a Catholic. Not any more). n/t

[janekat]

37. Wish they would have a "splinter" group...

There's a lot of good about the Catholic church - but I wish that they would have a group that could "splinter" off of the group. I do not like most of the pope's policies and the way he (and the rest of the leadership) has handled the pedophile situation is inexcusable.
They need to allow women and married men into the priesthood.

The pope has done some good things (speaking our against Bush and the war). Helping Poland with glasnost.

[CoffeePlease1947]

46. They do, it is called the American Catholics, much different than

most traditional European Catholics. Americans don't buy the condom policy.

I don't agree with allowing men to marry in the church and be priets.

Women, yes I agree. But being a Priest requires lots of time. And someone that gives up sex for God is a true believer I think. To many married pastors are corrupt.

I don't think it causes Pedophilia to disallow marriage. I think that pedophiles are just attracted to the idea of priesthood because they don't get questions and they have trusted access to children.

Leave the children with the Nuns, not the men.

Mike

[LittleApple81]

65. You know what is the definition of a priest in Latin America?

A man whom everybody calls father except his children who call him uncle.

[youngred]

164. Thanks for adding to constructive dialogue

:eyes:

[LeahMira]

162. So, Mike...

I'm reading along and I'm agreeing with some people who have noted the Pope's warnings about unbridled capitalism and I'm remembering the American bishops' 1986 statement on Economic Justice for All.

OK, I give you that sex sells and that the media will play up anything to do with sex, whether it's condoms or pederasts or whatever.

But I've asked several Catholics, including a cousin who is Catholic, what the man in the pew knows about the Church's positions on economic and social justice and whether your priests preach on these kinds of topics at your Sunday services where they really have a captive audience. To a person, at least of the Catholics in my social circle, they know bupkiss about these things,... but they sure are informed about the Church's position on things sexual!

So, I wonder why, if the Church teachings demand economic and social justice, those ideas don't get discussed more widely.

I can assure you that in my Reform synagogue, which I attend at least once a month and more often usually, the rabbi does discuss economic and social justice concerns regularly. There's a whole body of Jewish law he uses to frame these issues.

Are American Catholics so frightening to the clergy that they don't dare teach all that their Church requires of people?

[LittleApple81]

12. I must say that many CHRISTIAN denominations as well as MUSLIM

and other assorted religions cause a lot of harm in the world.

The main reason is because, to protect their turf, they are against knowledge and enlightment.

And I have seen criticism of other Christian and fundamentalist religions of all sorts in DU.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

15. When the Pope tells an overpopulated world

...that condoms and contraception are sins, then he's fair game. Personally, I consider bashing very different from on-point criticism, and I'll continue to call them like I see them. And others will continue to give back to me as good as they get from me. It's how this discourse works.

[CoffeePlease1947]

28. Newflash, the world is not overpopulated is just full of greedy people

Did you know that the average US Citizen uses 40X what the average people in the world use. And we are not exactly more happy are we?

Mike

[arwalden]

35. If True, This Is Relevant Beca-a-a-ause....?

Do you have a source for this phenomenal statistic? Are you talking about energy use? Water use? --- This might make sense if you take all of manufacturing and agriculture's energy and water use and divide it among our citizens.

Okay... I'll concede on energy and water... but taken in context, this isn't what your original statement implies.

And even if this is what you meant... what the hell does it have to do with this debate? This is clearly a non-issue and is just a diversion.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

42. See post #15, I didn't bring it up. n/t

[WindRavenX]

49. Sorry, we are overpopulated

Which makes family planning so crucial.
This planet cannot support our energy demands, nor can it survive what we've done physically to it.
The bottom line is that this planet of ours cannot support any more humans, which makes what has been said by the Catholic Church regarding contraceptive so horrible-more people will have unsafe sex, leading to unwanted children, abortion, and disease.
Seeing as how the Catholic Church is so against abortion, one would think they would support means to prevent pregnancy in the first place.
IMO, the Church is hurting more people than it is helping.

[CoffeePlease1947]

58. You got your facts all wrong my friend.

First, the church does not preach the practice of none safe sex. It preaches that you are either abstinence or have one partner. That is the safest sex there is.

Second, anyone that disregards the first tenet not to engage in mulitple partner sex and pre-martial sex cannot claim getting a virus for not using a condom because of the church's teaching. If they followed either the advice of everything the church said, or everything their doctor said they would not be getting the virus. It is not the responsiblity of the church to hand out condoms so they can cheat on their spouse safely. They get AIDS because they are not educated to use a condom or they do not follow the full teachings of the Church.

Third, you have no bases in fact that the world is overpopulated. China and India have 4 times the population as the US, and they are the same size. Russia is much larger and much less populated. There is more than enough food production to feed the world, it is mostly wasted and as we speak now ship loads of wheat that could be fed to children all over the world rots away because of political and economic discourse amoung the nations.

Fourth, it is the US and their greedy lifestyle that are using up 40% of the world's resources with only about 5-6% of the world's population.

Fifth, if it were not for third world nations the World population would be declining.

Those are the facts. So stop distroting them to fit your ideas and beliefs. Millions have AIDS in Africa because they DO NOT listen to either the full teachings of the church or their doctors. If you want Africans to have condoms then donate to a church that does hand them out. Don't call me and others evil because we don't. I personally have handed out condoms, on world AIDS Day. But I would be ashamed if the Church did it in the name of the Church.

Mike

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CoffeePlease1947]

97. Go ahead and believe what ever FAUX tells you.

Yes, I am uncapable of looking up the population of the Western World in 1990 and 2000 and see that their was a population decrease if it were not for immigrants.

I also am going to pretend that people are starving because there is not enough food in the world. Not because of wars, and stupid national fights.

The world is only over populated if you drive a SUV and have 2 televisions and a 2000 SQ FT house.

Most people in the world only take up a fraction of what we use.

Mike

[dsc]

16. I don't bash the chruch

but I do think they should be consistent in their interference in public affairs or not interfere at all. Many Catholic prelates devote seemingly endless time and effort to abortion and homosexuality related issues and then turn around and do nothing about the death penalty and economic issues. That isn't right. Either advocate your whole program or none.

[jonnyblitz]

18. grow up? please. people who can't handle dissent need to

grow up. I would assume you don't care for Bush and criticize him quite freely. Do you think somebody would be correct in telling you stop the Bush bashing and grow up?!?!

[CoffeePlease1947]

22. Your Bashing Democrats, not Freepers. You understand!?!? n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

29. Indeed

[Democrats unite]

19. When they stop telling me I am immoral...

I will stop bashing them, and not a momment sooner.

[OneBlueSky]

23. I agree . . .

this former Catholic (not lapsed . . . it was my choice) agrees with you completely . . . when they stop bashing me and other gay people, then I'll stop bashing them . . . their pelvic orthodoxy hurts a lot of people, both Catholic and non, and is certainly something to call them on . . .

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Democrats unite]

31. The catholic church has in my opinion...

has become a cancer on humanity. They are also in step with the current Administration. They can all go to hell for all I care.

Remember the children? This was an organized coverup from the very top & this will never ever be forgotten.

[arwalden]

27. Devoting One's Life To A Cause They "Believe In" Doesn't Necessarily...

... make the "cause" a just one. So stop saying that! Valid, justified, and warranted criticism isn't "bashing". So stop saying that! Female circumcisions has nothing to do with the Catholic church pretending to be an authority on modern medicine or science (which they do do). So stop saying that!

The issue of "forcing their ideology" upon others is a valid one. No sense in comparing it to nuisance door-to-door prosthelitizing... that's NOT a valid comparison. --- YES INDEED they ARE FORCING their ideology and their values and their misinformation and their pseudo-science and pseudo-medicine on millions of hapless victims who actually trust and believe the lies being told to them. It's criminal.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

39. Stick To The Subject! This Isn't About ME. It's About The Catholic Church.

If you have something SUBSTANTIVE to say about my post, then DO SO!

If you would like to defend your position, then DO SO! If you'd like to try and explain why you think I'm wrong, then DO IT!

You made pretty aggressive statements there... and now you've been called on them. Time to put up or shut up. Crap or get off the pot.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

47. Personal Attacks Do Not Become You, Mike. -- Calm down, and...

... try to think rationally BEFORE you type. Re-read your message before you press the "Post Message" button.

You seem to be implying that any minor good thing the Catholic church does somehow justifies all the false science and dangerous misinformation they are spreading.

Contradicting me is NOT how you win an argument or a debate. What exactly about what I said is false?

Whether or not I have (or haven't) done as much for the needy as the Catholic church as done DOES NOT DISQUALIFY ME from making VALID CRITICISM about the Catholic church. NOR DOES IT DISQUALIFY or negate the facts of my criticism.

Rather than defending the church against my accusations and proving me wrong, you instead choose to simply IGNORE what I have to say with an irrelevant attack on me.

This debating tactic reveals much about the fact that you know in your heart I'm correct. You just can't admit it to yourself... and in REALITY you have no defense for it.

-- Allen

EDIT: Last paragraph for grammar and clarity.

[CoffeePlease1947]

48. You are the one personally attacking me, my person when you attack

the church, the church is the people.
The Church saved me and my family. And they have fed millions and millions of people.

Mike

[arwalden]

51. A-a-a-and, I Think We're Done Here... I Won't Waste Any More Of My Time.

Clearly, you're unwilling (or incapable) of carrying on an intelligent discussion/argument/debate. You flit around from subject to subject with wild-eyed accusations that have no bearing at all on the subject matter at hand.

If I want to engage in a debate that consists of nothing more that a stream of contradictions, then I'll argue with a toddler. This "Duck Season! Rabbit Season! Duck Season!" type of debate is pointless. --- If you want to engage in something more mature, then send me a PM.

If you want to address any of the REAL ISSUES that I (and others) have tried to bring up, then that would be a welcome change from what you've been doing up until now.

I'm done here.

-- Allen

[treepig]

52. here's godwin's law kicking in

when i was growing up i was good friends with somebody who grew up in germany in the 1920's, and she maintains to this day that the actions of hitler benefitted millions and millions of people, too (which they probably did). somehow, she manages to completely turn a blind eye to his overwhelming atrocities.

is it over-the-top to compare the catholic church with the nazi regime? guess it all depends if you're a beneficiary or a victim.

[IranianDemocrat]

105. What offensive intolerant garbage.

.

[janekat]

32. Catholicism is a beautiful religion (I grew up Protestant)

I grew up Protestant but have been going to Catholic church's since '81. I have not joined, however. I appreciate the fact that they do not push themselves on others unlike most of the other denominations. The main thing that sets them apart from others is their "humbleness." Instead of "crowing" about how wonderful they all are - they have a sort of humbleness. When you go into the church - you genuflect. You go to confession to reflect on what mistakes you have made that week.

I also like the services and the ceremonials. They are beautiful.

The catholic church in Chicago does all kinds of things in the city - they provide great leadership.

They don't look down or "judge" people for drinking alcohol and a lot of other vices that are wide-spread behavior. Instead, they encourage people to reflect upon it - admit/confess it and ask for forgiveness for it. A lot of Protestants such as Baptists, the Christian Reformed, Evangelicals "rail" about the evils of alcohol - then go home and booze it up or go over to their "mistresses" apartment to do it.

They (as well as most other denominations) do have some "screwed up" policies (such as birth control, dealing with the priest abuse, lack of women in leadership positions). I also have "mixed" feelings about the pope. He's too conservative for my tastes...

[CoffeePlease1947]

38. I agree with all that you said

I think the same thing. Yes, they are too conservative. But that is changing, too slowly I agree.

But the church does more good than harm and are much better than many other faiths.

The main reason I have not left the church is because I owe them my life and the life of my family. The other reason is I cannot find one that is better.

If my family was not Catholic, I would not exist. I do hope the next Pope will be more tolerant and accepting. But one can only pray that will happen.

Mike

[bicentennial_baby]

43. Oh please

"But the church does more good than harm and are much better than many other faiths"

So, this is "my religion is better than everybody else's religion"?

:puke:

[BonjourUSA]

36. I can't agree with you !

My young brother is doctor and some of his friends chose to go to Africa, Latin-America or anywhere else people need them. They hard work for getting these populations in safety. And, at each time, this Pope's speech sweeps many years of work !! I still remember their furor when the Pope talked against contraception during his travel in Mexico.

And you say "1 billion people are Catholic". You shouldn't admix "to be born in a Catholic tradition" and "to be Catholic".

[CoffeePlease1947]

40. I agree they should change that position, it is a bit archaic

But you also forget that they preach monogomy and not to use drugs.

That is actually safer than a condom.

Mike

[Padraig18]

44. Are we here 'fair and balanced'?

Quite clearly, we are not, as regards the RCC. We endlessly post and applaud ourselves and our candidates over the most insignificant acts, yet we leave no opportunity to throttle the RCC unmolested. We ignore the fact that the RCC provides more aid for food, health, education, the provision of clean water, etc. than any other organization *in the world* (including the UN, who most of us seem fond of), and we further ignore its outspoken opposition to the death penalty, its support for worker's rights, it's condemnation of slavery and child labor.

No, we are NOT fair and balanced as regards the RCC, and I say this as a Democrat AND as a Catholic. I disagree over many issues with the Church, as do many members, but to assault our faith wholesale is unworthy of those who proclaim themselves to be 'progressive'. We are not The Borg, and an attack on 'The Church' is an attack on US, whether you intend it to be so, or not.

Ours is a religion of peace, and of love, and you could do worse than to adopt its fundamental tenets.

For shame.

[arwalden]

55. An Attack Or Criticism On Catholic Church Policy and Politics Is Not...

... an attack on every Catholic person. Yet you behave as though it is. Why?

An attack on how the Catholic Church pretends that their doctrine or policy is a substitute for modern medicine or sound science is NOT an attack on every Catholic person.

-- Allen

[Padraig18]

74. An attack is unfair because...

... no one here, except the RCs like myself, is willing to acknowledge that the RCC *does* actually present a scientifically-sound alternative--- abstinence and monogamous relationships.

I happen to one RC who thinks the RCC *should* embrace birth control, etc., btw, but I nonetheless take umbrage at the one-sided, unifocal attacks on the RCC.

Just for fun, Allen, tell me one GOOD thing the RCC does; if you can, I may well accept that your attacks are 'fair and balanced'. :hi:

[arwalden]

81. Hmmm... So What You're Saying Is...

Because abstinence and monogamous relationships are "scientifically sound", then we should give the Catholic church a free pass when it chooses to LIE and spread disinformation about other alternatives.

If this is not what you're suggesting... it sure appears that way. The Catholic church (and their defenders) are only INVITING ridicule upon themselves by pretending that doctrine is a substitute for medical and scientific fact.

Your little "fun challenge" is pointless. It's a diversion and has nothing to do with whether or not my criticism of the Catholic church is valid or fair. It also does nothing to defend your point. It does nothing to explain why you think I'm incorrect.

Requiring church critics to "balance" each criticism with a compliment is nonsense. It's also a bit silly for folks to dismiss valid criticism of Catholic church policy simply because they feel that there is no balance between compliments and criticism.

That's a cop-out. You know it. I know it. Any reasonable person who is reading this knows it.

If you want to continue to be that way, there's nothing I can do to stop you. Have at it, Cowboy. --- But... lacking anything more substantive in your replies, I suspect that I'm done with you, too.

-- Allen

[OneBlueSky]

122. that's all well and good . . .

you are free to believe anything you want, and to remain abstinent or monogmous as you see fit . . . the problem comes when the Church tries to impose it's beliefs and positions on the rest of society, which it does relentlessly . . . I guess an outfit that considers itself "The One True Church" thinks it can dictate how others live their lives . . . well, that's hubris in extremis, imo . . . those who choose to be Catholic and live by the Church's law have every right to do so . . . by the same token, those who do not so choose have every right to embrace homosexuality, non-procreative sex, or choice in the matter of abortion, and not have to worry about the Church's influencing governments to adopt their positions and theirs alone . . .

on another matter, I'm still reeling from the irony of the Church's pederasty scandals . . . here I was, struggling for years with doubt and guilt because the Church said that my sexual orientation was a mortal sin that would land me in Hell . . . and all while the good fathers were diddling pubescent boys in parishes coast to coast . . . if it were any other organization, there's be plenty of proof to justify prosecution for criminal conspiracy of the highest order . . . as it is, dioceses across the country are cashing in valuable real estate and other assets to pay off the victims with millions and millions of dollars to avoid even larger court verdicts . . . the irony just kills me, it really does . . .

[CoffeePlease1947]

77. The Catholic "Church" is the people. Please understand that

"the Catholic Church pretends that their doctrine or policy is a substitute for modern medicine or sound science is NOT an attack on every Catholic person"

You are wrong. Why do you REFUSE to listen? Why? Really do you only see what you want to see?

Go to your Doctor, today, call him, or her, and talk to them. Ask this question, "What is the safest way to avoid getting AIDS?"

He/she will tell you, "no sex or monogomy". That is exactly what the church preaches.

Now, you are suggesting that people don't have access to condoms because of the church, that is wrong. The church does not bar the UN or local governments from handing out condoms. It does not hand out condoms. So what, neither does anyone else. They are not required to do so.

It is you that are attacking one billion people that giving solid medical advise, food, meds, and a loving caring home, all because they don't consent to screwing safely on their spouses that goes against the core values of their faith.

That is twisted and unfair.

Mike

[Mandate My Ass]

80. "screwing safely on their spouses"

nobody yet on this thread suggested that condoms be used for screwing around on spouses, yet you've used that red herring repeatedly. :shrug:

BTW, if using condoms saves even one life, I'm not too much concerned with whether the person using one were acting morally (in RCC terms) or not. It is often the non-cheating spouse who is the victim of STDs.

[Padraig18]

82. Would you ask a Jew...

... to serve pork chops at a synagogue fundraiser? The RCC prevents *no one* from using or obtaining condoms, in Africa or anywhere else-- they just don't provide them and encourage people to use either abstinence or monogamy to halt the spread of HIV.

Sheesh! :eyes:

[Mandate My Ass]

88. they're promoting false propaganda

that condoms don't prevent STDs. I don't expect the church to provide them, but to lie about their efficacy is dangerous and irresponsible.

Pork chops at a synagogue? Mkay. :eyes:

[Padraig18]

89. They didn't lie

Condoms are *not* 100% effective, nor are they the *most effective* way to stop the transmission of HIV. Disagree with the 2 methods the *do* advocate all you like, but don't misrepresent what they said by calling it a 'lie'.

I am RC, and I disagree a LOT with my church on human sexuality and reproductive rights issues, but 'lie' is a fighting word, even to those of us who believe as I do.

[Mandate My Ass]

95. The NIH and CDC said it was false

If you would prefer the term "false" to the term "lie" so be it.

The scientific community has said that condoms do effectively reduce the chance of contracting HIV and their word holds more water with me than the Pope's.

[Padraig18]

98. 'Reduce'

The Church says they don't prevent the spread 100%, only abstienence and monogamy do--- a statement the CDC also agrees with. Again, reading what you want to read.

[Mandate My Ass]

106. Ahem

On the BBC Panorama program "Sex and the Holy City," Lopez Trujillo explained, The AIDS virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." That latex has holes or pores through which HIV (or sperm) can pass is a total canard.

A National Institutes of Health panel that included anti-condom advocates examined the effectiveness of condoms from just about every perspective, including strength and porosity; according to its report, released in July 2001, latex condoms are impermeable to even the smallest pathogen.

So following that logic, the punishment for one who commits a sexual transgression is a possible death penalty. Not very merciful, IMHO.

[Padraig18]

108. I noticed something

Why do you avoid saying they're 100% effective in preventing the spread of the HIV virus?

[Mandate My Ass]

112. Why do you ignore that forbidding their use

will lead to the needless deaths of many of your RC brothers and sisters?

[Padraig18]

117. Ummm

If you'd read some of my other posts in this thread, you'd discover that I think the RCC should change many thing about its stances on human sexuality and reproductive rights, and that includes artificial contraception. That said, what I am saying is simply this: the RCC *does* promote halting the spread of HIV--- through abstinence and monogamy. They are NOT telling people to go out and get sick; they are telling people to behave *responsibly* and engage in the *only* behavior that is 100% effective in preventing the spread of HIV.

[Mandate My Ass]

126. abstinence and monogamy

are wonderful things and should be encouraged. They are also not the norm for millions of RCs. Premarital sex, extramarital sex and homosexual sex are a fact of life and should be treated as such without the stimatizing. It's just not realistic to pretend abstinence until marriage and monogamy afterward is possible 100% of the time. So people who find they cannot abide by these strict sexual mores should be exposed to greater risk than is necessary? I disagree.

By forbidding the use of condoms, the RCC is putting people at uneccessary risk. What would be so wrong with saying be monogamous, but if you find yourself in a weak moment (which millions of people will), be sensible and use a condom to prevent risk of infection?

The church is not behaving *responsibly* to ignore the health risks these people will face if they promote the belief that condoms are incapable of stopping the spread of disease.

This pope has even said it's a sin for monogamous married couples to enjoy sexual intercourse unless they are actively trying to get pregnant. Attaching shame and sinfulness to a beautiful expression of love between two committed people is misguided at best.

[Padraig18]

127. Please read the 1st sentence of what I wrote.

I'm gay, I'm monogamous and I use condoms! :hi:

[Mandate My Ass]

131. I did read it

and I stand by my claim that the Church has taken an irresponsible stance on prohibiting or even discouraging condom use.

Human sexuality is beautiful and should be celebrated, that's why when I left the RCC for good I embraced paganism. I'm sure the RCC is better off not having me as a member and I'm doubly sure it has been a blessed relief for me to leave it.

PS: When I defended Catholic homosexuals in a published letter to the editor in the Philadelphia Inquirer a few years back, I got dozens of death threats and hate mail wishing I'd die a slow agonizing death from members of the RCC (all anonymous of course). The only positive response I got was from a fellow recovering Catholic. :hi:

[DemBones DemBones]

148. You got ANONYMOUS hate mail but you know it was from Catholics?

Uh huh. :eyes:

[CoffeePlease1947]

153. I love it when we catch them, did you read the story about how the

Catholic Church forced a women to marry a man and bear 5 children of his and he had a venerial diease that deformed the children?

I really liked that story too.

I am waiting for people to tell a story about how a bunch of Cardinals through condoms into the Atlantic in the middle of the night dressed as Indians.

Mike

[Mandate My Ass]

156. They identified themselves as devout Catholics

but they didn't provide their names or addresses as I openly gave the paper permission to do on my behalf. One said that he hoped my ovaries and uterus would rot from cancer and any children I may have brought into the world would die horrible deaths since they'd likely only be "fag-lovers" like me.

Ah, the love was just overwhelming. All because I rejected the idea that gay Catholics should live totally celibate lives and openly admit that they were an 'abomination' before the Lord as a Catholic bishop had demanded they do. Who else but Catholics would be so utterly incensed at having their hypocrisy pointed out to them?

[oldcoot]

124. Trujillo's comments

I think that many are responding to Cardinal Trujillo's interpretation of the numbers and are not commenting about the actual numbers. No one has a problem with saying that condoms are not 100% effective. However, Trujillo compared using condoms to "Russian Roulette." To my knowledge, the CDC does not share Trujillo's view.

[arwalden]

99. So... Just A Guess Here....

... does this mean that the Catholic church was wrong about the sun going around the earth, and the earth being the center of the universe, and that the earth is flat?

You mean... (gasp!) they've been WRONG BEFORE??

You mean... (horrors!) that in the past, others have blindly defended the obvious facts that were staring them in the face?

Just wondering... just asking.

-- Allen

[Padraig18]

103. Just baiting...

... you forgot to add. :hi:

[RapidCreek]

109. Just baiting???

Answer the damn question!! Are you too afraid or just not well enough informed? It is really telling....your tendecy to reply with nonsequiturs to a valid challenge.

RC

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

120. I See You Understood My Point...

... and for the benefit of those who don't have a sense of humor, and who can't comprehend the concept of irony, and who can't read between the lines:

My point was that the Catholic church is NOT infallible, although throughout time there have been those who believe (and continue to believe) that it is infallible. (Also hidden in there is the suggestion that the Catholic church hasn't been very friendly to the scientific and medical professionals... but you REALLY have to be looking for it.)

Flame bait? Hardly.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

138. Wow! You're All *Over* The Map On That One...

I have to admit that I don't know where to begin to reply to that work of art. Jeesus! Pick a topic, Cowboy! Oh! I know... how about the ORIGINAL topic!

If it were even REMOTELY close to the original topic, I might feel compelled to reply... but once again you're out in left field screaming about something that's totally unrelated.

I'm going to let this one go. It's not worth my time. In fact I'm a bit annoyed with myself that I've wasted THIS much time writing a response already... but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

125. You telling me that the Doctors were not wrong either?

You mean to tell me that blood leaching was not a true method or curing infectous problems?

You mean to tell me that Neptune is not the furthest Planet from the sun and that Mars doesn't have humanlike civilizations on it?

You mean to tell me that the Scientists have been wrong before?

Please, compare 16th Century to 16 Century and compare 21st Century to 21st Century.

Comparing the 16th Century Church to the 21st Century Church is not a "fair and balanced" view in anyone's reasonable judgement.

Mike

[arwalden]

143. That's Another Topic For Another Thread... Uh.. I mean TOPICS (Plural)

...none of which have anything to do with what we're talking about now. Nice try, Cowboy.

-- Allen

[arwalden]

92. What Nonsense...

... by spreading lies and disinformation they are effectively "preventing" people from using condoms. You're parsing words and playing with the language... but you ignore the end result of what their charade has had, and will have.

I don't recall any of the messages in this thread (or anywhere else) that suggested that the Catholic church actually PHYSICALLY PREVENTS them through physical restraints or other such nonsense. (This is what you appear to be implying.)

However... it's silly for folks to ignore the fact that when the Catholic church chooses to FORBID condom use, and when it chooses to spread medical LIES and scientific DISINFORMATION (as though they are the world's authority on such things) the net effect is that they are indeed preventing---there's that word again---preventing common folks from taking common sense precautions.

But, you go ahead and pretend like you don't understand. I know you know better.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

121. Now you are calling people names arwalden

How dare you call people of the Catholic Church liars. You have any evidence of this, or is this what you watch on FAUX News?

Mike

[arwalden]

134. Yes... Calling The Church "Liars" Is Permitted Under DU Rules.

What *is* against the rules are ad hominem attacks calling DU members "bigots", "liar" and "right wingers" (as you have done) and is not permitted.

In addition... my statement was clearly about the fact that they are LYING about proven medical and scientific fact. I did not simply offer a wholesale blanket statement that blindly accused someone of being a liar.

But, if you feel that I've violated the rules you may click the "alert" link and explain why you feel that way.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

142. You have done the same Arwalden and worse and try to weasle out of it.

I explained to you that calling the Church liars is the same as calling all Catholics Liars, We are the Church, and their is a lot of us.

Second, I never called anyone a Liar. Third, I never called anyone a right winger, and I dare you to find it.

A bigot is everyone. Bigot is "someone that is intolerant of creeds and opinions other than their own."

That is what you are doing when you make intolerent blanket statments about an ENTIRE church.

I am bigot, we all are bigots. That is not name calling. It is defining a statement. Just some are worse than others.

You still refuse to back your claims that I and all Catholics are liars.

Mike

[arwalden]

146. If You Truly Think This, Then Click Alert.

I'm confident that your baseless accusations will be dismissed by any reasonable person who reads what I actually wrote rather than your wild-eyed and exaggerated interpretation of my messages.

I'm not going to fall victim to your simplified "we are the church" defense. What nonsense. --- Believe what you will, but you're only inviting ridicule upon yourself. I'm finding in increasingly difficult to take you seriously.

I've never said that you are a liar, nor have I said that "all Catholics are liars". That is a lie.

You said I was engaging in "right wing" tactics (or words to that effect). Nice. --- When all else fails, compare your opponent to a Nazi or a freeper or a right-winger, eh?

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

101. Reread what you wrote please

how do they get a disease from not having sex? Also your second comment makes not sense whatsoever:

"It is often the non-cheating spouse who is the victim of STDs."

How can they get the virus if the cheating spouse doesn't contract it first?

Mike

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

100. We aren't concerning women who may have been raped either

[Warpy]

45. Mike, nobody is bashing Catholics

...most of whom are very nice folks and who tend to be far more liberal than their Protestant brethren.

However, the hierarchy led by the Pope is another matter. You don't think his ignorant pronouncements about condoms are a big deal. Well, the last thing men need is another reason to whine about using them. Not using them may be fatal in certain communities in the US and in all communities in Africa. I sincerely doubt the Pope or his advisors give a hoot about all the lives lost due to the spread of AIDS. When facts come up against boneheaded doctrine for these guys, guess what always wins?

The fact that the Pope is old and sick is irrelevant to this, since he's still managing to cling to such an antihuman doctrine and spout it as the ultimate truth. He is wrong, he is ignorant, and he is celibate and has no business speaking out about public health issues concerning the spread of disease and how to stop it.

These old boys have been preaching abstinence for millennia, and they haven't been able to stop anyone from following their sexual instincts. This is a very powerful drive we're dealing with, and it's high time the churchmen recognized that they don't have any of the answers.

[CoffeePlease1947]

53. You only address one side of the issue, let me put it to you this way

Since rape is unavoidable, we should preach that all rapists use a condom?

That is the same thing. When you believe that sex should be between two people and not lots of people, a condom is rather pointless isn't it.

What is safer: A condom with lots of sex partners, or abstinence and monogomy?

What is misleading is the notion that a condom is 100% effective and safe.

I agree, the church should say, if you are going to screw around on your wife or husband you should use a condom.

But please don't act like the church is preaching to have unsafe sex, they are not and that is unfair and an inaccurate portrayal of the Churches views and teachings.

Think what you want about having a single partner, but the reality is most people believe that. If they don't follow that teaching, why do you think that they would follow the condom preaching? It makes no sense. If you belive in the teaching of the church than you will not engage in premartial sex. Thus you do not die. If you do listen to the church you are monogamous or practice abstinence. It is not pick and choose what you like or suits you.

Mike

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

68. You've Hit The Nail On The Head... "Tantrum" Was The Word I Needed Earlier

... but it escaped me at the time. Your characterization of some of the replies I've read here is dead-on.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[niyad]

84. oh please, nobody who carries on in the histrionic manner you

have so clearly demonstrated on this thread is even a grown-up, much less older than me.

you clearly like attacking people who don't agree with you blindly, but can't stand to have your flaws in fact and judgement pointed out.

as the saying goes, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

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[Padraig18]

71. Your logic

I do *not* agree with the Church's stance on many matters regarding human sexuality and reproductive rights; however, to state that "...I sincerely doubt the Pope or his advisors give a hoot about all the lives lost due to the spread of AIDS...." is, at best, a misunderstanding of His Holiness' stance. Not only DOES he care, but he cares enough to preach a truth many of us would prefer to ignore: abstinence and committed, monogamous relationships are the only guaranteed ways to stop the spread of HIV.

The Church's stance on the issue of contraception is clear, and the outrage directed at the RCC over its refusal to embrace condoms, etc., is about as logical as outrage at a pig over its refusal to sprout wings and fly. While you may disagree with the Church's stances on these issues, you cannot in honesty say it does not provide alternatives to condoms. It does.

[Trajan]

59. To Hell with the Catholic Church ......

Sign me: Former Catholic with a right to criticize the Catholic Church .....

[bleedingheart]

60. Even though I am a cafeteria Catholic

I don't like Catholic bashing or for that matter, Wicca, Jewish, or Muslim bashing...etc

I grew up in a very catholic and very democratic neighborhood and when I first met my in-laws I was shocked at how anti-catholic some people are...its funny they forget that old quote about being able to throw stones only if you are without sin...

[gully]

61. I'm not Catholic, but I agree, bigotry is bigotry...

And Catholic bashing is 'bigotry'...

[arwalden]

66. At What Point Does Criticizing The Catholic Church Become...

... "Catholic bashing"?

How is it "bashing" when someone specifically argues that the Catholic church ought to stop pretending that their doctrine and policy and politics are real substitutes for medicine and science?

It is a weak form of defense when others accuse their critics of bigotry. Those who try to characterize their critics of being "unworthy" themselves---or who point out that their critics have faults of their own (and are therefore irrelevant) are engaging in weak defense/debating methods as well.

But... aside from my editorializing (above)... I'm curious what your answer is to the question in the subject line. Is ANY criticism to be forbidden? This appears to be what you and others are suggesting.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gully]

133. I personally have differences with the Catholic church...

And am not Catholic, but I do try to be sensitive and respect those that are.

That's the point I tried to make. I actually agreee with the OP.

As some have pointed out Dennis Kucinich is a Catholic. So is Ted Kennedy etc... Though they share the same religion, they are individuals.

I'm not an expert on 'what offends Catholics' so you'll have to check with a Catholic for more information ;)

I have no problem with criticizing 'individuals' such as the pope or the Dali Lama for a stand they may have taken. But to criticize the group is a different thing.

For example criticizing the protection of pedophile Preists by a group of Catholics is a valid concern. But I think it's fair to seperate individuals and hold 'individuals' accountable for their actions instead of all Catholics.

Seems pretty simple to me?

[CoffeePlease1947]

139. That is a good position to have Gully

I can tell you what makes Catholics mad.

Don't attack the Pope the person. You can attack his views, but don't say things like he is evil or demented, or insane, or a liar. He is our leader, and we recognize he makes mistakes and we don't all agree with his decisions. It is kind of like your mother, she makes you mad, but when someone calls your mother a name or attacks her, you would be willing to fight for their honor or with your live is need be.

Don't attack Saints. They are saints because they preformed miracles through God. To attack this is to attack our God directly. It is OK to say they made mistakes and were not perfect. But to say they were bad people at the time of death is a big no-no.

The third, is to make broad assumptions about all Catholics based on the stories or views of a few.

The last, I would say don't attack the Church as a whole, like they it is evil and wicked. We all know its' sinful past, and those people are gone and God has dealt with them in his own way.

I think you have a good way of thinking about. Some people don't care though, they would rather get punched and sue than worry about caring about others feelings, honor, or self respect. Then they claim to be for people.

Hell, I would rather be dead than have nothing worthy to live for. What is worth living for me is my beliefs, my family, and my values.

Mike

[BonjourUSA]

75. In the same way, criticizing Israel would be "Jewish bashing" ?

wouldn't it be a form of "intellectual terrorism" ?

[gully]

135. Being critical of Israel is not Jewish Bashing, as there are Christians

in Israel as well. ;)

So I don't think the analogy applies here...

However, to criticize "Jews" because you don't like Ariel Sharon is an entirely different story. Or to slam 'Jews' because you don't like Joe Lieberman.

See how that works...

Bigotry comes in many forms KWIM?

[Darranar]

78. I, too, am tired on the singling out of Catholics before all others...

There are religious fundamentalists in all religions, and making it look like it's a Catholic problem is, frankly, a load of junk.

[realFedUp]

83. The pope and the church's actions over the years

are fair game. He and the Catholic church influence
millions of lives...they even have a seat at the UN...

[Padraig18]

85. They're an 'observer' at the UN.

And as a city-state, why not?

[CoffeePlease1947]

87. They are a country, like Isreal only smaller

Plus they don't have a vote. They also opposed the war in Iraq.

Mike

[realFedUp]

90. Their influence is uncontestable.

That's all I'm saying.

[CoffeePlease1947]

93. What have they made you do?

Nothing most likely.

Mike

[Padraig18]

94. OK

Shouldn't an organization that represents over a billion people have some influence at the UN? :hi:

[Room101]

86. Why did he protect all those Molesters and rapists?

I agree with the gist of your post, but how convenient you did not bring up the sex scandals. The internal documents that showed a covert policy of cover-up of Molesters and rapists. One wonders if you or someone was Molested or raped by a member of the church and they try to cover it up, what your sentiments would be. FUCK THE CHURCH! Condoms don’t protect Aids, they say. FUCK THE CHURCH!

[CoffeePlease1947]

91. Well, as one of those victims of the Church

I can say that it was wrong. But the Religion says that you don't make public sins of the individual. That is the bases of confession.

I don't think the church handled it properly. But I can say that not everyone knew about it. It is largly an American Problem, not a worldwide one. I would blame American society more than the Church considering that it only happened here.

I can also say for fact that all religions had the same problem. The RCChurch is more prone to it because it provides a place to hide, child molesters can say they are not married because they are Catholic Priests. They also had easy trusted access to children.

You hear more from the Catholic Church because they have more money to sue and get and like I said, it is the easiest place for pedophiles to hide.

Mike

[RapidCreek]

151. Sorry chief

If I live next door to your Church I don't want my kid getting cornholed by the priest that cornholed you. Your church conspiring to cover the ass of criminals who fuck children endangers the entire community. I don't give a shit what YOUR religion sais...when it endangers MY kid, it's my business, and I have every right to nail your churches ass to the shithouse wall for it.

Who cares what happens in other churches? You remind me of a guy who gets nailed for raping children and says...."well golly, I ain' the only one who rapes children, why ya pickin on me".

It only happened here? How the hell do you know that? Ten years ago you'd have been telling me it didn't happen here either. What happened here, is they got caught. Americans not turning an eternal blind eye is why they got caught....and for that the rest of the world owes American society a debt of gratitude.

RC

[Q]

96. First Amendment...

- I have no reason to bash The Church or any other organization. But I resent that you think you have any right to tell me not to express my opinion.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

116. Nice, Mike... Real Nice. Name-calling doesn't become you.

And it's against DU rules. I understand you're probably frustrated right now, but your frustrated tantrums keep folks from taking you seriously.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

119. Who did I call a name? I will edit it if I did.

The only one calling people names are the bigots in hear calling Catholics names and misrepresenting their views.

Mike

[Padraig18]

102. Does anyone find it slightly schizoid...

... that when our favorite candidate's words are taken out of context (or misrepresented entirely) we instantly 'leap into the breach' to defend him or her, yet when the same is done to the RCC, we RCs are all supposed to just shut up and accept the criticism, no matter how unfair or invalid we think it may be?

Just wondering...

[CoffeePlease1947]

107. What bothers me is they don't care to look at all the facts, just what

they want to.

It is annoying. It is like taking to people that only get their news from FAUX and will not even listen to the whole truth, just what they want.

I really am beginning to think many of these people are bigots and very misinformed. It is scary that they see no gray ground anymore, just Black and White.

They even say the Pope Lies and doesn't care if people suffer. So sad, I would not even say that more conservative churches.

Mike

[arwalden]

111. May I Suggest...

If you think something has been said that's untrue, you first need to point out WHAT was said that you believe to be untrue and why you believe it's untrue. You need to explain why the criticism is wrong or unjust.

Running around and screaming "untrue!" and "unfair!" and "lies-lies!" does absolutely nothing for you or your position.

So far, the preferred methods of some folks attacking the critics and avoiding answering questions and changing the subject and throwing temper tantrums don't appear to be working very well. The same can be said for implying that someone is unqualified to criticize the Catholic church because of some character flaw that perceived in them.

Others also appear to be getting VERY LITTLE mileage from the accusation that an attack on the *INSTITUTION* of the church is the same thing as an attack on you. --- Those folks need to get over themselves. Nobody is going to take them seriously if they continue behaving like that. (I know that I have a difficult time taking them seriously.)

I'd suggest that it's time to change debating tactics to something that's a little more effective and productive to an actual exchange of ideas.

Good luck, Cowboy.

-- Allen

Edited for grammar, spelling and clarity. Sorry.

[Padraig18]

115. Unfortunately, Allen,...

... several of have stated what is untrue--*repeatedly*. The fact of the matter is that few of you want to read with comprehension what we DO write, when we point out what's untrue.

[arwalden]

132. The Only True Thing I've Read From You Or Mike Is...

that indeed abstinence and monogamy are near perfect ways to avoid contracting HIV.

I've never had an issue with that position. I've never had an issue with that recommendation.

When I take issue with the outright LIES coming from the Catholic church that makes uninformed people believe that condoms are innefectual... THAT'S where I begin to have a problem.

Throughout all of these exchanges, the Catholic apologists have tried repeatedly to change the subject and tried to make it about something other then the issue of the Catholic church LYING and pretending to be a medical and scientific authority.

The apologists and confusers have done their darnedest to be offended and insulted and tried to redefine what's a "fair and balanced" criticism and who's "qualified" to make such criticisms. They've tried to put the critics on the defensive by putting words into their mouths and attributing outrageous statements to them that were NEVER said.

Such a tremendous effort has been made to do all these things EXCEPT for actually defending an indefensible statement coming out of the Catholic church.

Ah... there's the rub. It's incorrect and INDEFENSIBLE.

I understand now.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

141. Oh Brother... Okay: "Cardinal insists condoms unsafe against AIDS"

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B592197.htm

Unfortunately the www.cdc.gov web site is down or I'd be happy to do the research for you and show you hundreds of links and sources that demonstrate how effective condoms are in addition to monogamy and abstinence.

PM me and remind me later on if you still want me to do the google and CDC research for you.

You know these studies are out there. This is sound and proved medical FACT and scientific FACT. Proved and accepted within the scientific and medical community. For you to demand that I jump through the hoops of your "show-me-the-links" challenge is yet another diversionary tactic to prevent me from stating well-known and universally accepted FACT.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

147. "but fellow cardinals distanced themselves from him."

"World Health Organisation's (WHO) argument that condoms reduce risk of infection by 90 percent proves his point"

1/10 odds of getting AIDS is high.

Right there he quoted the World Health Organization.

Are you advocating that a 1/10 odds of getting AIDS is not playing games with your life?


The cardinal did not lie about the facts.

Nor did the majority of the Catholics agree not to use a condom when engaging in sex.

Again, you misrepresent the facts. You say they lie, yet cannot produce one line that the Church has lied.

Mike

[arwalden]

150. 10% Risk Is Better Than 100%

People are animals. They are going to fuck. Some won't... but most will. The question is whether they fuck with a rubber or without a rubber.

The Catholic church is living in a vacuum. They are completely out of touch with reality.

And when the Catholic church tells people not to use condoms because they don't help prevent HIV infection, then they are LYING and doing them a criminal disservice.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

163. You are sentencing them to all die you realize when you do the math

Think about it, if you have sex 100 times in one year(about 2 times a week) with something that is 90% effective you expose yourself to HIV 10 times per year.

Eventually you will get it over a ten year period of time.

The Condom idea works in the US because we have a very low infection rate, but many of these communities have a 50-70% infection rate.

The only logical way to over come this is to use a 100% effective method against infection and try to repopulate the quickest way you can.

Using a condom in these areas is not going to save you unless you only have sex a couple times a year.

The math proves that, the statistics prove that. It is not effective in a population with these dynamics.


A lie is a intentional mistelling of the truth.

They are not lying, they said that their is 10-15% chance of the condom not protecting them.

Would you trust someone that didn't tell you that information when 70% of the population is HIV positive?

That is not a lie.

WOuld you have sex if you had a 10-15% chance of dying? I sure would not. And I would be angry if someone didn't tell me I could.

Think about what you are asking. You are asking the Catholic Church to endorse a lifestyle that would statisically wipe out about 95% of the population in ten years. Not very kind or holy IMHO.

Mike

[arwalden]

166. In Other Words: "The Sky Is Falling! The Sky Is Falling!" Right?

I've read... and re-read what you just wrote and I'm just amazed that you chose to submit it anyway.

I'm guessing that you're only reading every-other-word in my messages. Yes? This must be the case, because there's no LOGICAL explanation for the nonsense you've just typed out.

It takes me a while... but I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Your hysterical rants are getting you nowhere. Other than being frustrating, the off-topic rants and deliberate misinterpretations are beginning to bore me. They certainly don't impress me.

There's really no need for me to respond to what you wrote or to try and debunk your assertions and "statistics" and "mathematic" doomsday projections. (You know... I really ought to ask you to "show-me-the-links" as you like to do).

But, instead... what I'll do is CONGRATULATE you and THANK YOU!

CONGRATULATIONS on doing my job for me and for showing others with a first-hand and real-time example of exactly how illogical and unreasonable you've been throughout all of our exchanges. I didn't think it was possible for you to out-do yourself... but you proved me wrong.

THANK YOU for saving me the work of having to disprove your unrealistic examples and myopic accusations.

Nobody is out to get you... criticism of the church is not an attack on you. Unfortunately, that simple truth appear to be lost on you. You'll only hear what you want to hear and you'll only read what you want to read. Quite frankly, I couldn't have done as good a job at demonstrating paranoia as you've been able to do.

My work is done here. Goodbye and good luck to you.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

129. One More Time... Let's Do This In Baby-Steps... Ready?

First, If you cannot except that two Catholics have told you that a Church is the people, not a building or an institution, you are not capable of understanding any argument that is made.

You're making an absurd statement and drawing an absurd conclusion from it.

The institution of the Catholic church... its policy-makers and political machinery are not the same thing as the people. The "people" don't establish church policy. The Catholic church is not a democracy. You're kidding yourself if this is what you believe.

Certainly I understand that there is a common reference to the "church" being it's people. But only in the sense of community and fellowship. --- You are PURPOSELY ignoring the fact that the dictates of the church and church policy comes from the institution of the church. Quit pretending to be insulted. Quit pretending that it doesn't exist.

Second, You ignore the premise of innocent until proven guilty.
It is not up to ME to prove false accusations false. You need to prove that an accusation is true. Not the other way around.

Excellent point. The Catholic church ought to be doing this when it comes to disproving MEDICAL and SCIENTIFIC FACT.

You cannot disprove a false accusation, you can only prove a accusation true is has been done. That is all that is done, saying the Pope doesn't care about people dying of AIDS, Show me proof, show where he says "I don't care about people that die of AIDS" You cannot, it is false and bigoted.

What? Are you recalling an argument with someone else? I never said this. --- It's silly for you to interject this nonsense into this discussion. Either you're confusing me with someone else, or you're purposely trying to change the subject (again) and confuse the issue (again).

It's one or the other. WHICH IS IT?

Third, when I do explain that the church is following the most scientific protection against AIDS by not having sex outside marriage you ignore it completly.

No, I have already acknowledged that this is indeed effective. I've also pointed out that the church LIES and pretends to be a medical authority when it's not.

Indeed it is YOU who are ignoring my criticism of the Catholic church. You've failed to respond to any criticism with anything other than diversions, and tantrums, and by interjecting irrelevant topics.

Answer me that one question. Why do you support a less effective method that doesn't protect against AIDS, a condom, over a 100% proven method that does, monogomy? You cannot. Thus your accusation of saying they are going over the heads of doctors is False. You just don't like that method as much is all, admit that much.

More nonsense. I don't support condom use OVER monogamy. I've never suggested such a thing. You know it and I know it.

My accusation of "saying they are going over the heads of doctors is False"? What? --- When did I say that?

I have never faulted the Catholic church for recommending abstinence or monogamy. I do, however, fault them for spreading LIES about the effectiveness of condoms as an alternative.

This is what it's always been about no matter how you try to frame it and no matter how you try to change the subject. This is the core issue that it will always be about.

It's not about the other "good things" they have done. It's not about acknowledging other good deeds... it's about this CRIME of spreading LIES and false information to folks who are largely illiterate and ill-informed to begin with.

It sounds to me like you just ignore what I do say of substance and concentrate on my emotional appeals and say, "why don't you use anything of subtance."

I have yet to see anything from you that could even remotely be considered substantive. Emotional foot-stomping name-calling rants is all that you've served up. Quite frankly it's getting old.

Seems rather right wing tactic to me.

This is "name calling". Once again, you remaining true to form.

Goodbye.

-- Allen

[CoffeePlease1947]

136. Ugh, you contridict yourself three times in one post, you are getting

worse.

I don't even know where to begin.

You accuse the Church of telling lies put up the evidence?


"this CRIME of spreading LIES and false information to folks who are largely illiterate and ill-informed to begin with."


"The Catholic church ought to be doing this when it comes to disproving MEDICAL and SCIENTIFIC FACT."

Prove it. You are just making up accusation right and left.


"Seems rather right wing tactic to me." Is not name calling. It is an observation of a tactic.

The Right wing always makes up information without evidence to support their claims. Do you deny they don't do this?

Mike

[George_Bonanza]

114. The pope was very outspoken against the Iraq war

All of us here were against it. Maybe it'd be a sobering fact to acknowledge one of our biggest proponents was *gasp!* the pope! How can anybody say that the pope is in step with the Bush administration? That is plain stupid. Yes, on issues like abortion and homosexuality, they're aligned. But the pope's views on the poor and oppressed are far more benevolent than Bush's.

[Runcible Spoon]

123. RE: birth control

you live in a dream world. Abstinence-only sex education fails in our culture, and in every culture of the world. What the RCC is blind to is the fact that even though they claim many, many followers worldwide, they ignore the fact that just because someone prays in their churches and takes their food, they don't abandon their mother culture. Religious syncretism is a dynamic where two traditions come together and something new is created. So teaching someone that having sex with multiple wives is bad, when their entire way of life is built upon having many children to support an agrarian lifestyle (which may or may not be threatened due to globalism's effects such as sweatshops, disenfranchisement of indigenous rights to their land, etc.) is ineffective.

In order for sex education to be effective, it need to be approached from a culturally relativist position. There is not a religion powerful enough to curb "deviant" behavior. If there were, why are there so many pedophiles?

I find it disgustingly elitist you refer to your faith as better than others. I've travelled Mexico and Guatemala extensively, and the brand of Catholicism practiced there is a far cry from the Vatican model. Remember the big flap over the canonization of Juan Diego? The pope would not even consider it until a scrubbed, European version had been created: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/07/31/wpop31.xml

Catholicism is a unique faith, in that it is especially ripe for the creation of syncretic traditions. This is why it claims so many followers. This is a beautiful thing, a real expression of the rich cultures of the world. However, the centralized church is a heirarchical patriarchy that has lost touch with its followers, in both the West and Latin America.

[CoffeePlease1947]

128. Creating straw man arguments does not win your case.

I never stated that my Religion was better than all others. I dare ask you to produce where I stated this.

Nor did I say that I agree with the position of the Church on condom use. But not handing out condoms is not the same as lying about it. I think preaching monogamy and abstence is 100% safe and they way to go for those that can. Condoms are not 100% safe and the church should not be handing them out if it confuses people to go another route. People can get their own condoms if they want them.

You also have it backwards. The church has not lost contact with the people, the people have lost contact with the Church. It is American culture that has caused the Church to be ignored.

The truth does not change because the culture wants the truth to change. It is more likely that people ignore the truth.

"centralized church is a heirarchical" Yes, so what. The US is a centralized heirarchical, so is DU, so is 99% of the world. That is not always a bad thing. That doesn't make it evil. Nor is there any evidence to prove that it is.



Mike

[Character Assassin]

145. Objection: assumes facts not in evidence

You also have it backwards. The church has not lost contact with the people, the people have lost contact with the Church. It is American culture that has caused the Church to be ignored.

The truth does not change because the culture wants the truth to change. It is more likely that people ignore the truth.

Inherent to that statement is that the Catholic Church ever actually understood what the truth is, and that 'the people' did not.

I see no evidence of this.

[CoffeePlease1947]

149. Nor will you ever with your eyes wide shut

Americans live more stressful lives than other traditional Catholics.

Americans go to more wars, have the death penality, are oppressive to other nations, consume more resources, and do more destruction to the environment and other people then most if not all other nations.

Now maybe you see that as more progressive, but I don't.

Mike

[Character Assassin]

160. What a trite, stupid thing to say

Nor will you ever with your eyes wide shut

My eyes and vision are quite adequate for the task of observing both the church, its adherents and functionaries, thanks.

Americans live more stressful lives than other traditional Catholics.

Meaningless to the argument as to whether the church ever actually understood the truth.

Americans go to more wars, have the death penality, are oppressive to other nations, consume more resources, and do more destruction to the environment and other people then most if not all other nations.

Any time you'd care to remain on topic and wander off into tangential, irrelevant topics, you let me know, hmmmm?

Now maybe you see that as more progressive, but I don't.

Sometimes people in North Dakota wear green shirts.

[Cooley Hurd]

144. There isn't a religion I will comment on...

...because there is no right or wrong belief. If you're Catholic, you're cool. Muslim? No sweat... Fundie Christian? Cool but don't bother me w/ it.

This is my one and only post on this type of religious thread and I pity those who feel the need to push their beliefs...

[LeahMira]

152. Golly...

... if someone should comment on the fuss that Episcopalians are making over the gay bishop, is that Episcopalian bashing?

If someone should comment on the Jewish State of Israel and its treatment of its Palestinian neighbors, is that Jew bashing?

If someone should comment on the Islamic fundamentalists who are terrorists, is that Islam bashing?

I think most folks can separate some religious "policy" from the people who are members of that congregation... all of whom are separate and unique individuals.

FYI, however, as a state, the Vatican State has more than its share of influence internationally (in the U.N.), nationally and locally. Vatican opposition has been a factor limiting the efforts of the U.N. agencies to provide contraceptive information and services to many poor areas that the U.N. serves.

The dioceses in the U.S. each have a lobbyist in the state legislature whose job it is to examine bills that come up in light of Church dogma and traditional teachings and to inform the various legislators about the Catholic position on the bills. In my state, for example, viagra is covered by health insurance prescription plans while birth control pills are not. That is due in large measure to the Catholic position that birth control pills are wrong but pills that enable or enhance the experience are fine. Also in my state although birth parents, adoptive parents, adoptees, and social workers pretty unanimously favored opening birth records for adult adoptees, the Catholic Church opposed it and the bill was amended so that permission from the birth parents is required before unamended birth records are released to adults who were adopted.

Far as I know, no other religious denomination wields political power to such an extent as the Catholics because of the Vatican's dual position as a religious center and as a state among nations. So, if you are unique in that way, perhaps people can speak to some of those kinds of issues without being accused of "bashing."

I am Jewish, and while I understand a bit how you probably feel, I think you need to develop a thicker skin and maybe learn to pick your battles.

[CoffeePlease1947]

158. They are calling the Pope Crazy and Mother Theresa Evil

Not to mention the fact that they flat out lie about the teachings.

Birth Control is not covered under some plans and Viagra for different reasons than influence of the Church.

Not many people use Viagra, most women do use some sort of birth control. Thus the cost is the factor.

Catholics can preach all day, but in America it is the all mighty dollar that will win in the end. Don't forget that.

If the church got its' believes passed into law that would be pretty scary. Most US Catholics are for birth control and for a women's right to choose as I am. But we must seperate the morality with law, IMHO.

Virtually everything that the Church preaches is opposite in the US.

The war
Birth control
Death Penality
Minumim Wage
Health Care
Abortion
Gambling
Pornography

All the opposite of the way they want it.

Mike

[Zynx]

161. Amen my brother.

If you on this board want to keep up the Catholic bashing, do so considering one little item in mind: Without the Catholic vote, Democrats would never win an election. I'm a Catholic, albeit a loosely practicing one, and this kind of bashing of the church and the pope makes me question what is at the core of this party. If this party ever becomes an atheist/anti-catholic party, you can see me voting third party or even not voting .

[AnnabelLee]

165. Locking

Rule #2 violation

2. The subject line of a discussion thread and the entire text of the message which starts the thread may not include profanity, excessive capitalization, or excessive punctuation. Inflammatory rhetoric should also be avoided. Exceptions may be allowed for threads about our shared political opponents and/or policies which we generally oppose.

Please review the rules for starting threads in the General Discussion Forum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=463744

Thank you
AnnabelLee
DU Moderator