I am beginning to have second thoughts about Cousin Wesley

[Pepperbelly]

I was very excited at first and was a dedicated a supporter as one could want but lately, I have cooled considerably. Why? I may have shared with some of you my conversations with people in the headquarters and my unease when they told me that they were keeping Wesley so busy as to be virtually incommuncado from friends and family. That concerned me some but what concerns me more is the result of that cloistering.

What excited me most about a Wesley Clark candidacy was the very fact that he was not a politician. I have grown quite weary of them of late, their pandering, their flip-flops, their lack of sincerity, their refusal to just come out and say things rather than taking the scenic route to a mealy-mouthed platitude. All of them are guilty of it. I had high hopes for Wesley that he wouldn't but alas ... a homeboy, John Brummet, puts it better than most in this column in the Arkansas Times:

"He has made such a concession to political convention - to staying on message, to being handled, to avoiding fatal error in debates - that he has been playing his opponents' game, the standard political game, and doing so as the naive, blundering rookie. Clark seems ever on guard to attend first to the political lessons he's learning. In the process he has lost distinctiveness, not to mention mystique."

http://www.arktimes.com/brummett/101703brummett.htm

Like Brummett, I am disillusioned. None of the scurrilous crud that his detractors said have merit. What does have merit though is the charge that, as Brummett notes, rather than the straight talk express, Wesley seems to be engineering the bland talk express and that is just too damned disappointing for me.

I am not around much these days to post but I will stick for an hour or so today. Ciao.

[LightTheMatch]

1. Well, no kidding...

Once you decide to run for your first office and it happens to be PRESIDENT, that's a pretty big deal. I would be really scared of making a huge blunder too, and would be listening to my consultants and handlers, etc. all the time.

[Pepperbelly]

2. But ...

that makes him just another politician and I personally am mightily fed up with the lot of them.

[WillyBrandt]

4. Ups and downs

He's getting over a cold, and hasn't been out there enough. Over the next month, we'll have far more specifics on plans, and we'll have a more congealed campaign.

There's a huge grassroots element that keeps growing. It's a campaign for an extremely interesting outsider. There are going to be emotional ups and downs

[Composed Thinker]

12. What is your job on his campaign?

[WillyBrandt]

"We" isn't "he"

I misspoke--I mean he will have more specifics on plans. I just post on the Clark weblogs, do meetups and give a (very little) money.

[patdem]

5. Okay, Pepperbelly you would rather him act like a homeless person

than a politican while running for president of the united states of america..and he can win because all homeless people vote twice??

What I mean is how can he become president of the united states of america without becoming a politican??? It is after all a political position????

[Pepperbelly]

15. I would rather he ...

act like a man rather than a political slug. It is not a matter of policies, it is a matter of honesty. Brummett hits it exactly right ... with this kind of bland shit, he's like Gephardt without the experience, Kerry without the heiress wife, etc.

He started out well and then began listening to the "professionals", the ones who have lost and lost and lost because they do not have a clue what real people actally want. The biggest wonderment of all is how reasonably intelligent people can continue to pay these fools money for bad advice.

[Julien Sorel]

32. If he behaves in too unorthodox a fashion, he alienates

too many people. The fact is, he isn't Gephardt with his PAC, union, and special interest support. The fact is, he isn't Kerry with a wealthy background and an heiress wife. Nor is he Arnold, with world-class name recognition, and a waiting constituency of pissed-off voters and desperate Republicans. He has to get support from someplace -- where?

He also has to avoid making too many mistakes early. He's done a good job of that so far -- Dean, the 'experienced' politicain can't seem to jam his own foot into his mouth often enough, while Clark has made one minor error, for which he was crucified. I suspect that once he feels his feet in this, once he gets his mind around it, you'll see some populism and fire out of him.

This is a tough time. First, we waited to see if he'd run, then we saw all the insane, vicious attacks, and now there's a relative lull, when it's easy to second-guess yourself, and begin thinking and worrying too much. Speaking for myself, I wish he would have picked up more on the Arnold outsider angle, which suits him perfectly. But the campaign is still coming together, and I think we're at a point now where we'll see some positive movement. The first month or so was simply focused on survival, as it should have been. Now that he's more or less established, with solid fundraising, a base of supporters across the country, and a stable team around him, I think you'll see him asserting himself more. It's difficult, by the way, for a guy who has been attacked for 'arrogance,' to come into a situation that is new to him, with people he hardly knows, and start telling them their business without suffering a big backlash for it. Your cousin is doing fine, considering his circumstances.

[Pepperbelly]

34. I think everyone here is misunderstanding what I am saying ...

The handlers ARE the problem. What he offered was a non-political view of a political office, a problem-solving paradigm rather than knee-jerk partisanship and ideology. As long as he let his values guide the process, he did well. That seems to no longer be what is guiding the candidacy.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

44. When You're Under Attack, It's Natural To Shelter Behind Cover

I think that's what his handlers represent, a buffer.

Come on, PB, have faith! You know how great Wesley is, from personal experience. Give him some time, it is SO early yet!

DTH

[wtmusic]

52. And DTH's screen name says it all

If you're a hawk, vote for Clark!;-)

[Renew Deal]

55. You obviously misunderstand his screename.

Besides that, how do you figure?

[wtmusic]

62. You obviously understand my post

??

[Julien Sorel]

46. What you seem to be suggesting as an alternative is Mr. Smith

Goes To Washington. That was a movie; this is real life. His 'non-partisanship' is a potential weakness in the primary. He has to have a base to work with, and he has to win the primary. That requires a network of wired people. People who can get him access to money, people who can get him access to an infrastructure. Those people, naturally, want some kind of assurance that Clark isn't a real-life version of General Ripper, that he isn't a loose cannon. He has to win the confidence of the establishment before he can begin to push it into the shape he wants -- it's a basic tenet of organizational politics. Give the guy some time, and keep confidence in the three things that put him in a class by himself: his intelligence, his integrity, and his desire to do the right thing. When push comes to shove, he'll do more than his share of shoving, if his background is any guide.

[Pepperbelly]

53. i disagree ...

if he allows these people to put him in the box the way they so far have, his goose is cooked. And if he lets them, it should be cooked.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

57. Why Don't You Tell Him How You Feel, Privately?

Maybe it'll resonate coming from a family member.

Speaking only for myself, I know I'd be pretty upset if a family member started calling me out on a public message board before telling me personally.

Again, I'd urge you to give him some time. It's early yet, he's had one month. It's been a treacherous road, I'm sure he's still feeling his way out.

DTH

[Pepperbelly]

64. not calling him out at all ...

just letting folk know where I stand these days since I am not here bvery much. And no, it is not possible for any of us to speak with him outside of the immediate-immediate family. The staffers keep his sequestered and will not allow a dissenting voice near him. I have tried and mour aunt has tried and they simply will not let anything through.

:shrug:

And while they may have his best interests at heart, they are squandering what made him an attractive candidate to begin with.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

65. Not To Sound Like a Broken Drum, But Have Faith

If your cousin is the man you know he is (and I believe he is), he'll make his own way, without blindly following convention.

DTH

[wtmusic]

61. It's 'difficult to come into a situation that is new to him'?

Are you saying he lacks experience? Too bad. He will be judged on that basis then.

[Julien Sorel]

67. And experienced politicians, who shoot off their mouths

making fools of themselves in the process, should be judged all the harsher for their foolishness.

Evenhanded cockroaches, or cockroaches with even hands, or whatever Pudge's latest screwup was. Do cockroaches even have hands? :shrug:

[sendero]

7. If the...

. if the only way you can get elected is to act like "another politician", that kinda puts you in a catch 22 doesn't it?

[chimpymustgo]

10. How about giving Clark a little more time?

I'm an Edwards supporter, and would like to see those two on the ticket together. All the candidates get better with time and practice. Clark is still getting his footing. And he still has great potential. Don't give up yet. Keep hope alive!

[Composed Thinker]

14. All things considered, I think he's done a good job so far

And as time goes on, Clark will hopefully improve.

[OKNancy]

11. Clark is head and shoulders above all other politicians

and if you believe a non-politician will not win this race, or any race, then you are not as smart as I thought you were.

On edit: go read this about your cousin. It will give you a kick in the pants. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45166-2003Oct18.html

[WillyBrandt]

17. OKNancy, relax

He was having some worries: he wasn't attacking. There's no reason to be aggressive in these matters. What's that about honey and vinegar?

[OKNancy]

23. I'm not attacking or being aggressive

Pepperbelly knows I love him.

[Pepperbelly]

21. I had trouble following the ...

double and triple negatives of your post. Are you saying that a non-pol can or cannot win?

[OKNancy]

24. LOL

yeah now that I read it, my post is mixed up. One has to be a politician to win this kind of race. And as I think more of it, I think Wesley is speaking out. It's probably not going fast enough to suit you, but things are coming together.

Do you ever go over to the official blog. It's nice to be with like-minded people.

[Pepperbelly]

28. no ...

I have spoken with his handlers personally and they are boobs and without his original candor and bluntness, he really is no different from the others. Just my feeling. I think those assholes are doinbg their best to wring from him what could actually win it for him.

Just my opinion.

[virtualobserver]

43. are you talking about the former Gore people?.....

when you speak of his handlers?

[Pepperbelly]

49. I have met a half dozen of them ...

and behind a rather politically sophisticated facade, they were as dumb as a sack of hammers. And those are the people who are screwing the pooch. Who have they worked for? I don't know but I do know this: if he ecks out a win with those goofuses in charge, it will be a miracle.

[virtualobserver]

58. the only reason that I specifically asked was that I thought that....

Shrum, Lehane and Fabiani destroyed Gore and are in the process of ruining Kerry and Clark.

[Pepperbelly]

66. Like I said ...

I do not know who these guys worked for. I know only that when I visited with them, they are all facade and no substance.

[Tinoire]

99. DLC spin meisters- over-paid strategists with a bad track record

but the DLC loves them.

They're pretty big guns for dirt- be it deflecting it or throwing it. They're the type of people you don't want anywhere near your campaign.

They were first brought on board when Clinton started having his problems (didn't do a good job there at all!)

Were also on for Gore and did a lot to re-mute his message. They did a lot behind the scenes and would hand Lieberman a list of companies to call once a week just to say "Don't worry, he (Gore) didn't mean that."

Recently, the handled Davis in California. http://www.mullings.com/06-01-01.htm

They are "all facade and no substance" with a very poor understanding of how to get to voters.

[Woodstock]

117. but unless you want to form your own country

you've got to pick one of them, and he doesn't seem to bad relatively speaking

[bearfartinthewoods]

91. it's a lot easier to avoid this trap if ou have a bit of experience in the

field.

Pepperbelly, if you are looking for the real deal...look at Edwards.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Hey PB...we had a couple exchanges over this but I have LARGELY

stayed out of the fray.

I think Clark would be a great contribution on the ticket but I don't know about the top spot.

The ONE VALID criticism I had of him that was attacked was his FIRST debate appearance where he answered without a policy stating he had JUST declared his presidency...give him some time.

I think he has been groomed to equivocate...and that fares poorly in a time where an actual stand is necessary.

[Pepperbelly]

19. good phrase ,,,

"groomed to equivocate".

That is not his natural inclination but rather a result of the functionaries by whom he is surrounded.

[bearfartinthewoods]

113. serious question...how do we know that it isn't his nature? n/t

[jumptheshadow]

42. Let's hope he finds his voice

I genuinely believe he got into the race because he felt he could solve some of this country's problems and that he was one of the most qualified people to do it.

[Pepperbelly]

54. i agree 100% and ...

I hope he manages to transcend the pols who are 'helping' him.

[Shakespeare]

98. PB, perhaps he's working on finding the appropriate balance...

He's going to have to submit to a certain amount of "handling" to run an effective campaign, and given the man's high intelligence, I'm sure he understands that.

The first month or two of any campaign is a wobbly thing as heierarchies congeal and the message--and how to communicate it--is developed.

I think (and hope) these are just the expected growing pains. It'll be good to revisit this idea in a couple of months and see how things have evolved since then.

[mmm]

6. Quite so

Kucinich is the only candidate with well-thought
and consistent positions on every issue.

[loudsue]

118. I have to agree with you on that....

Dennis is a Menace to fascism and totalitarianism in every form...and he's not at all confused about where he stands. I wish he had more powerful statesmen/women behind him so that he could really kick some butt.

I'm afraid this political climate isn't "aware" enough to be ready for someone who is really an advocate of the "people". Our society has been brainwashed to believe everything "corporate" is good, and everything "people" is for throwing money up a wild hog's ass.

He's a "warrior" for GOOD, and Clark is, I believe, a "good" Warrior (with a capital "W"). I mean that, for Clark, in a positive way, too. I've studied the "W"arrior tradition through the native American way, and I respect warriors....like "Braveheart".

This whole discussion, with Pepperbelly's dismay, is tugging at my heart-strings.

[KittyWampus]

120. Dennis Is An Advocate- Not A Politician

He speaks without the politician's tone....

That is his strength and weakness.

[JI7]

8. was wondering about you

hadn't seen you post for a long time. good to see your ok. maybe things with the clark campaign will get better as they get more organized and settle into the whole campaign thing. remember, campaigning is new to him.

[dsc]

9. This should hardly be shocking

People run for President that way because over time it is the way that works. There is a reason sucessful politicans are sucessful politicians. Just like there is a reason sucessful teachers are sucessful teachers. I hope you don't desert him over this.

[Pepperbelly]

18. i disagree ...

the people he is captive to are not winners. They are not people who actually win campaigns but just flit from campaign to campiagn, inflicting their own brand of blandness on whoever will pay them to lose it for them.

I am very disappointed. What began as a populist movement is becoming less so. Even here in Little Rock where we LOVE hometown pols running for prez, the blush is off the rose.

[gulliver]

13. Give him a chance.

I found his New American Patriotism idea fairly electrifying. It reclaims patriotism for what it should be, service to and love of country, not flag pins. It is also functional because it gives the United States a reserve of capability to do more than just make war, and, importantly keeps war profiteers like Halliburton and Bechtel out of our pockets.

Man, Clark has just jumped into a very deep, dangerous whirlpool. He's trying to learn the strokes. He has already done some brilliant things. Don't be so hasty.

I remember your frog picture "Never give up." Well don't give up now. Clark has the bird by the neck and it is doing everything possible to make him let go. Give him time.

[KC21304]

16. As you can see , many of us would love to see him on a ticket

with our guys. It is tough when you don't have a lot of political experience to know who to tell to go to hell, and who to listen to. Even the more experienced people find that out once they are running for the big prize.

My daughter went from Kerry to Clark, but I have held back and think I made the wiser choice.

Hope things work out for all of us, and Kerry/Clark is still my dream ticket.

[AP]

20. Don't let the whore media make up your mind for you.

I think anyone who's having second thoughts this week is probably more in the sway of the whore media than he or she realizes.

Why don't you wait for a few more debates, listen to the what the candidate says for him or herself, and don't let the whore media mediate your relatiionship with the candidate.

[Pepperbelly]

22. I have been ...

disconnected from the media for a month now and most assuredley, it is not they who are swaying me.

[AP]

25. Didn't you just quote from a newspaper? Aren't you on the internet?

Are you staying out of LBD...ignoring any reference to the media in GD?

[Pepperbelly]

29. that is my local weekly and I confess ...

I do peruse it weekly. I had access to the net today and remembered reading it, looked and found it. So sue me.

[tlcandie]

30. Pepper, maybe you are just coming down to earth from your image

or ideal of Clark and seeing he is only human after all? Please hang in there! None of us are perfect. My suggestion, go with your heart and the MEAT of what makes you want Clark rather than his appearance or electability.

The old saying of, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater," comes to mind and I agree with those who say it's a bit too early. Let him get his footing and find his way a bit. He appeared a bit more timid in the debate than I thought he would myself, but I enjoyed watching the others follow his lead in rolling up the sleeves :D I was actually grinning. Honestly, I hate it when someone else copies someone else and some did that evening...even Kucinich and I love him to pieces!

That is MO and I'm not the usual dem.. :D :hug:

[Eloriel]

26. Good for you

As someone else so eloquently put it: He's the New Face on the Old Establishment.

He was put in the race to stop Dean. Dean is unscripted, unhandled, UNBOUGHT, and giving power back to The People, and doing damned well at it. For Washington insiders, this cannot stand! He must be stopped!Neither the DNC nor the DLC nor the Clintons want to lose the power they have, and they stand a very good chance of doing that if The People are sufficiently empowered by a REAL outsider and grassroots candidate like Dean.

And it's not because Dean can't get elected -- it's precisely because he CAN get elected (and empower The People).

There's a lot to support this. Not only am I a bit rushed this afternoon, I have no access to my old hard drive with all the good links. Maybe someone will come along and add some supporting information.

I applaud your smarts on this issue.

BTW, not to inflame here, but IMO Clark has enough problems in his background that I would not even like to see him on the ticket with Dean. Too too much ammo for the right by half. Of course, some of the things (his corporate ties including the infamous Jackson Stephens) aren't mentionable by the right, and those are also things that strongly warn against a Clark candidacy IMO.

Eloriel

[Pepperbelly]

31. sorry but

Dean is absolutely no better. Same old thing from all of them.

[Eloriel]

50. No, I think you're not correct about that, Pepperbelly

I've been watching him a while, I've been reading things from people who know him personally, and this is a different candidate. In fact, Vermont politics are different to start with. One columnist put it this way: there are too few people in the state to be ABLE to con the people, do backroom deals, etc.

Now, you can hold on to your prejudice about Dean if you want to, or you can check him and his campaign out more thoroughly for yourself.

Eloriel

[Pepperbelly]

56. i have checked out ALL of them ...

and no, Dean is just another pol. Perhaps if you could only allow the hero worship to slip just a bit, you might see it as well.

[RichM]

70. I agree with you. (You're on a roll today -- keep going!)

I don't think I've ever agreed with you twice in one day, but hey, when you're hot, you're hot.

Tip O' the Hat. :thumbsup:

[Julien Sorel]

36. The sooner Dean is gone, the sooner I get to see an end

to this overheated, paranoid drivel:

And it's not because Dean can't get elected -- it's precisely because he CAN get elected (and empower The People).

[wtmusic]

47. Take a deep breath; it might be a while

[WillyT]

60. Ooooo... Billy... Don't Hold Your Breathe On That One...

You might turn blue, or red as the case may be. LOL!!!

:scared::hi::scared:

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillyBrandt]

69. How can one abide the NRA "A" rating?

That's just so horrible.

[Cha]

78. Watch.. who you are calling a "propogandist"!

[WillyT]

80. Right On, Zidzi, Right On !!!

:grr::nuke::mad:

[Khephra]

27. It's good to have second thoughts occasionally

no matter who the candidate is. It keeps you from becoming a fanatic.

Even I have doubts about Dean sometimes. But after I sit and examine the issues and other candidates I always come back (at least so far). Having doubts every so often keeps you honest.

[xultar]

33. Snap out of it!

:spank:

They're all bland except Al Sharpoton. What do you want him to do go out there and reveal his kill all the neocons platform?

It's all gonna be boring and safe at least until the nomination process is over. Then the real sparks will begin.

Yes, they are all being handled and thank goodness for it. We can't afford any mistakes. By mistakes I mean hookers that come out of the wood work, any in-home foregin help without proper papers, drugs, frat parties where underage kids were served, drunk driving, and or transvestite mistresses.

It's a tight rope between now and 10/2004. OK, you no longer find Clark interesting. Well eventually after a while no one is interesting. If you can't support Clark then support another Democratic candidate. But don't get all :crazy: and wig out.

Remember...Keep your eyes on the Prize...No Shrubs in the White House after the elections in 2004.

Comprende'

[andym]

35. This is the real Clark

I am not sure that you are seeing the results of pandering to advisors. Everything I've seen from him seems to indicate that he likes complex analysis over simple bromides. He still seem to be honest, but his mind does not seem to be that of an arch reductionist. His answer to the 72 billion dollar question was not a simple one, but an honest one. This is the same problem got him in trouble on the plane on the first day of his campaign, and it probably will continue. It's also why he hasn't done well in a short answer debate format. Given the political awareness of the average American voter this may be a serious problem. Complex answers however honest do not come across as straightforward.

Many questions in the political game are setups designed to trap the candidate ("the loaded question"). They are designed for a simple gotcha answer, if you don't answer directly straightforwardly you are not straightforward, if you do, you're cornered. Clark has to learn one politician's trick: restate the question into a framework that still addresses the concerns of the question, but removes the gotcha and then answer it as directly as possible. Time will tell if he has the talent to do this.

[andym]

40. How to diffuse questions about legislation (for Clark)

He should answer each of these questions with:
I am not a legislator, I want to be president,
and as President I would do X. Where X is the way
he would like to see it done.

[Skwmom]

111. I agree with your assessment of Clark.

I read the Brook piece today where he referred to Clark as being a mealy-mouthed Democrat.

Clark had not read the bill, had not considered the arguments both pro and con, and to state whether or not you would vote for or against an important bill winding its way through congress (when you have not done your homework) would be irresponsible to say the least. He could have easily pandered to the angry base that Dean is tapping into but chose not to.

[jumptheshadow]

37. It's been a month

And during that month every day could have been filled with tasks about 10 times over. Hiring a campaign staff. Raising money. Criss-crossing the country. Drawing up detailed campaign positions that won't backfire. Being grilled mercilessly by reporters.

For God's sake, Pepperbelly, I saw the man speak the other day. He doesn't yet even know how to work a crowd optimally. He rarely looked in the balcony where some of his most ardent supporters were. He is still learning. But he seems to be a quick study.

I, too, don't believe he's been operating on full steam. I, too, am waiting for him to pull it together. And I am hoping for two things: 1) That he begins to feel a comfort level and finds his own voice. 2) That he realizes how important creativity and grassroots support are during this particular campaign and taps into both.


Man, another post, another edit.

[Kahuna]

38. Blummett doesn't agree with Clark not repuke bashing...

That seems to be his entire premise for criticism. I happen to agree with Clark not saying what Blummet would like him to say about attending the Lincoln Day Dinner.

Clark's message which seems to be lost on Blummet and apparently to you too is that he is running to be the president of ALL Americans. How can he expect cross over voters to vote for him if he insults them by saying that he was "naive" to associate with the evil and dreaded republicans. Wouldn't that turn off millions of Americans, Democrats included who have also voted for republicans in the past. And who do not have a political litmus test to determine who is worthy of association with.

Sorry Pepperbelly, but I think you should take another look at how Cousin Wesley is handling the issue. It's all well and good to play to the base right now and say that republicans are evil. But what about later in the general election? Also, what if Clark really isn't sorry about it? Should he lie and say he is?

Another thing. During the meetups, republicans are indicating that they are planning to change their voter registrations to vote for Clark in the primaries. YOur cousin knows exactly what he is doing. Remember. He never had to tell anybody that he voted for Nixon etals. There is a method to his madness.

Go Wes!

[Pepperbelly]

45. he could and should have uttered ...

that one little sentence that Brummett suggested and I think that would have worked wonders for him: someone coming to the party out of their own considered decision rather than from birth or years of partisan ideological self-promotion means a lot.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

39. I Have a Feeling He's Feeling Burned After the Hour-Long Plane Interview

That he granted to the four reporters on his first day.

Based on how that interview went, it's understandable that he's become a little gunshy, IMO.

I think he'll continue to improve and show well. YMMV.

DTH

[wtmusic]

41. The 'bland talk express' is

trying to be everything to all voters.

He will probably capture a large part of the Republican vote which is disillusioned with *. He seems well-intentioned and he speaks well but to me his lack of a solid Democratic background and lack of political experience are worrisome.

[charlie]

48. Maybe Clark should have a sitdown with Gore

Al would give him an earful about how awful paid handlers can be, how their advice to temper positions in pursuit of an innocuous, broadly palatable image can cost in the long run.

[Pepperbelly]

73. you may well be right IF ...

the same handlers can be gone around to have such a meeting take place.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. PB, While You're Online, Please Read This

It's a great article, most of which you undoubtedly know, but I was impressed by many of the tidbits I hadn't known before.

--

More than 40 years ago, a high school swim team here showed up one man short for a state meet. Everyone assumed they would forfeit the relay race -- the organizers, the school, even the team, which was resigned to loser status. But the teenage captain had a different plan.

Young Wes Clark announced that he would swim twice in the relay so the team could compete.

<...>

Wes Clark won the relay for Hall High School that day, demonstrating the traits that would define his life and his career: a supreme confidence in himself, an absolute disregard for conventional wisdom and a relentless force of will. Those gifts, and an undisputed brilliance, would carry him through a modest childhood shaped by profound loss, through West Point to the highest levels of the Army, and into the presidential race today -- his first foray into politics.

<...>

Scott Thompson, a colleague in the White House fellows program, is indebted to Clark for emotional support and advice when Thompson -- who was then married with children -- decided to publicly acknowledge that he was gay.

Dan Christman, a West Point friend and retired general, said that when he became very ill with spinal meningitis in the early 1980s -- before screening techniques for HIV-tainted blood were fully developed -- Clark doggedly canvassed their entire War College class to find a suitable blood donor for his friend, and he did.

<...>

Ultimately, <Clark> makes no apologies. "In any organization, there are personality conflicts," he said. "The worst thing you want in the military is a guy who follows the gang, 'Hey, I'll just go along to get along.' I was never that kind of a leader."

<...>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45166-2003Oct18.html

DTH

[Pepperbelly]

59. i read that while ago ...

and I want you to know that my issue is with Wesley's people.
I have sat down and talked to them and although they may well have his best interets at heart, they misunderstand his real appeal. If he manages to win, it will be a miracle with these buffoons mangling the campaign.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

63. So Tell Him That!

I have confidence he'll break out from his handlers, once he is more familiar with the terrain.

To use a cheesy military analogy, if you're in battle, you don't break out from cover until you're ready, and know the lay of the land.

DTH

[FrenchieCat]

74. It will be allright.....

Too bad you are underestimating your cousin Wesley.

I guess you should just sit back and watch for the time being.

Nothing in his profile suggest that anyone is going to handle him.

If you were for the campaign and not the man, then I guess you are maybe a third cousin.

Thank God as a supporter, I am not related to the General!.....I guess that lack of familiarity as forced me to have a lot more faith than you are experiencing.

Campaign minutia regarding the "Gore Handlers"...not taking into consideration that there are also "Clinton Handlers"....makes it appear that you are being somewhat fatalistic and prophecizing to make it so. Suspect the open board routine really helped you vent out your frustrations.....something like that letter from the imfamous Sterling......posted everywhere.....

You are only the 2nd supporter that I have witnessed change waivering, not based on the candidate and his qualities, but the identity of his handlers. Go figure.

[Pepperbelly]

76. I think that in your flip ...

answers, you are misunderstanding both the intent of what I wrote as well as the substance.

My point, simply put is this: the pols are bleaching out of Wesley the very qualities that can elect him and the very qualities that make him different from the others in the race. I never based my support on familial relationships and those who have been here for a long while, know that I withheld support for his candidacy for a long time. I never withheld defense of him from personal attacks made nor do I do so now.

His people are misserving him and that is a fucking shame.

[Tinoire]

83. Well you know how I feel but damn- you are correct

and it saddens to me to see that you are one of the few realizing this and also the most hurt by it.

Yes he is being very, very mis-served.

I am not in favor of his candidacy but your cousin was doing much better before the DLC openly took over the reins and started handling everything. I firmly believe he would do much better if he dumped them but can he realistically, at this point? The timing is extremely bad for the Dem Primaries but he could still do it. Most people aren't even paying attention yet and wouldn't notice.

I don't like Dean because his policies are too DLC to me but he did see the danger of being associated with them during this election and distanced himself. He hasn't broken with them but he did distance himself to run his own campaign. I think your cousin would be better off doing the same thing and relying on his own spark instead.

[Pepperbelly]

87. maybe the relationship is exactly why I am seeing it...

if you can't count on family to tell you the truth and not kiss your ass, who can you count on?

[jumptheshadow]

79. Intelligent questions and observations are a good thing

I appreciate Pepperbelly's post. The people I've seen who are supporting Clark love the fact that he is arguing for the right to have dissenting opinions. I would, however, in this case call PB's post "constructive criticism," something, by the way, that serves the candidate better then making snide comments about "wavering supporters."

[retyred]

110. You're entitled to have your doubts or even change your mind

if you feel Clarks not up to your expectations, but to only blame his handlers for your discontent is doing Clark the candidate a disservice.

A lot here are pointing fingers at the Gore people as being losers, the fact is Gore won, maybe his people could've done better, hell maybe if Gore would've been a better vice president and candidate himself he could've done better, but to blame it all on his people for the loss is not reality.

If you want to jump ship because you don't like the direction his campaign is headed then go ahead, if you don't want your name associated with what you percieve as a loser because of it and not because of the man and his positions, then you're shallower than I gave you credit for.

I've been unhappy myself with the direction we seemed to be headed at times too, but we're coming together in a positive way, I believe a one month old campaign will falter before it finds it's proper footing and corrects itself, give it time.

I have faith in Clark, my faith is not derived by who he has on his team, I happen to think Clark is a winner, I happen to think he will be "The" winner because with most of what he offers needs to be offered for this country, I am not in support of the man because of how his campaign runs right out of the shute.

At present he is a non politician, he's not bringing in the pollitical baggage and beholdens that all the others are bringing in and IMO is the only one that has a chance at all of beating "flightsuit".

Hopefully his campaign will find the right track, hopefully he will win both the nomination and the Presidency, but to count him out this soon is shortsighted and to count him out simply because of who is on his team that you feel isn't leading him in the right direction is self defeating.

I truely hope you stay on board, you have been an inspiration many times to many of us supporters in the early stages of the Clark support threads, but if this isn't your cup of tea then I wish you luck.


Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[LizW]

71. PB, I am truly sorry to hear this (n/t)

[w13rd0]

72. Pepperbelly has legitimate concerns...

...and I don't think it's appropriate for detractors to gloat or supporters to attack. Discuss is fine. The frustration is understandable given any of the options available. Best of luck in getting through to Clark that his handlers may be doing him a disservice, I tend to agree...

[1monster]

75. You know what? I get tired of people expecting

their candidates to be GOD. Or to run his/her campaign exactly the way each of his/her supporters want him/her to do so.

Either you support more of his/her positions than any other candidates and work to get him/her elected, or you choose another candidate to support and work to get elected.

All the constant whining about candidates on DU has pretty much driven me away lately. I'm spending a lot more time playing BIG MONEY and TUMBLE BEES now than reading DU... and that is a big change for me.

Can't we stop being so hypercritical and petty around here? Please?

[Zorra]

77. Yeah, the author of the linked article

that you posted was, IMO, right on when he wrote this:

I thought he should have said something like this, and had harbored the misplaced notion that he might:

"Yeah, I'm sorry. Look, I was politically naive. I'd been in the military for 34 years. I'd been out for a few months writing a book and trying to learn the investment banking business. I was venturing into civilian life knowing only one thing about civilian public service, which was that I wanted to find out about it so I could engage in it. So I said, 'yeah, I'll talk to you guys.' Then I spent two years in civilian life assessing the opportunities for public service and it came clear to me that I could only be a Democrat. So, yeah, if I had it to do over again, and knowing what I know now, I would never have made that Republican speech. And I wouldn't have said nice things about Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld just to be polite. But you know what? In some ways it's more meaningful to have made a recent and studied decision to become a Democrat, as I have done, than to be born into your party or spend a career in Washington going through the knee-jerk partisan motions in that morass."

I think that answer would have had the benefit not only of charm and seeming candor, but accuracy. I suspect, though, that his handlers don't want him admitting to naiveté. They prefer for him to blend into the pack.

http://www.arktimes.com/brummett/101703brummett.htm


After Shrub, people are looking for straightforward honesty. If he had done this, sincerely, it would have totally impressed me.

[Skwmom]

140. Who is the author to say what is an honest answer?

It sounds reasonable to me that he was checking out both parties. He has friends in both and it seems like both parties were trying to recruit him. The way he likes to do his homework, I'd be shocked if he didn't check out both parties. In addition, notice the use of the word "seeming" candor. I guess the author of the article just wanted something that seemed like candor, not the real thing.

So he was polite and said nice things. I recall that at the Republican dinner he had the guts to talk about what Bush and Co. did not want to hear. He was trying to get them to listen to his concerns. What should he have done - ripped them a new one and then tried to persuade them.

Plus the guy rips Clark for being "unethical" because he gave a paid speech after he declared his candidacy. What kind of crap is that. Clark had contractual obligations to fullfill. Big deal.

I looked back at some of his old articles and noted the author supports the anti-Clinton library. So I'm not too suprised by this article.

[Bread and Circus]

81. Dude, I think Clark is a victim of the Right Wing smear....

machine. They are in overdrive against him.

Give him some time and show some faith dammit.

More than that give me one reasonable alternative
to Wes.

[Pepperbelly]

84. did you actually read what i wrote?

I am not relating any smears at all. I am relating my experience with the folks in Little Rock and my view that they are misserving Wesley.

[Bread and Circus]

104. Yes, I read it bro....

But my fear is that Clark has had to be extremely
measured as of late because everyone on both the
right and the left is jumping him constantly.
It's kind of frustrating because
I feel support for Clark is being worn down left, right,
and center because of bad journalism, right wing
punditry, paranoia from certain elements of the left,
and downright snarky competitiveness from people
like Lieberman (who has recently gone out of his
way to cap on Clark).

I support critical discussion of the issues and pressing
Clark on those but I am tired of the culmination of
comments which seems to be a form of character assassination.

I don't know your cousin at all on a personal level, so you
obviously know him better than I. Is he the stand-up
courageous brilliant independent leader we think he is
or is he something else? When
I hear you (someone on this board I respect) are "having second thoughts" I wonder where it comes from. He is the
same guy he was 1 month ago so why the switch? What has
he done wrong?

[Skwmom]

133. Are you sure you aren't letting the attacks against Clark

color your assessment? You use the term "mealy-mouthed" in your original post which is the same term spewed by Brook today in his hatchet article. I do not find Clark mealy mouthed. He's a thinker who likes to do his homework before he makes a decision. Our country would not be in such a damned mess if more of our elected officials would do the same. The press is just trying to get him to shoot from the hip so they can turn around and burn him on it.

With that said, I do think his team could improve their message.

[Bread and Circus]

147. Good point skwmom...

Not to joust with pepperbelly, because I totally
respect him. It's just weird that he used the
same term, "mealy mouthed", espoused by Brooke to
put Clark down. As I go back and read more about
Clinton and my anger toward him, I realize it had
a lot to do with oft repeated "right wing talking
points" that took on a reality as they were repeated
over and over and over and over and over....

[CoffeePlease1947]

101. Could not agree with you more.

That whole push pulling thing, and all the attacks on him. It makes me very upset.

He is out best chance to beat Bush in 2004. I am afraid if he doesn't get the nomination Bush will be in for another 4 more years.

Mike

[Darranar]

82. All fall to politics.

n/t

[Octafish]

85. Heck with the handlers! Get a message through to your cuz!

And tell him to DO what HE thinks is right and to SAY what he knows is right. The hell with everybody else.

After reading what you said about the General a few months back, I did as much research as I could on the guy and those who know him through his work. He's the real deal and would make an outstanding President.

Good luck to him! Good luck to you and yours, too, Pepperbelly!

[rasputin1952]

86. I think Clark is getting his footing...

I would not expect anything overly dramatic during this phase.

I have seen Clark enough to know that he is a straight shhoter, and has no problem answering tough questions directly. At this stage of the campaign, I suspect that every candidate is going to take time in answering anything that might be inflammatory.

If Clark gets the go ahead, he will be on bush &co like there is no tomorrow. I see no problem with him being forceful when necessary, and becalmed when necessary. It is just too early to crash out of the chute.

:kick:

[Starpass]

88. Pepperbelly----you say he's fallen under the handling of professional

politician builders and is being managed........thank god, I thought it would never happen!! Seriously, I loved hearing him and then hated the attacks bastards in the media and some of our own shoved at him and thought: oh dear god Wes, get some real old-pro political handlers because otherwise these bastards design traps, lead the unsuspecting into it and dispose of the unsuspecting with a sharp box cutter across the throat. My only concern was when I heard that a guy he let go was a Gore manager----I wrote that here before. I remember gulping and hoping he didn't have a lot of those people on his staff because they fucking messed up Gore. Gore may have won but it should not have been this close. I have to admit I haven't seen or read much about Wes in the last couple weeks; but the few things I have seen impressed me and I'm not sure what problems people have been seeing. If I, who am a political junkie and who supports Clark, had something or things fly over my head, I doubt if it's hit many people. The one thing I can glean from remarks made in this thread that disturb me are as follows:

Right now he has to play to the base. It's like the damn Red Socks not replacing Pedro soon enough and with that other good pitcher because he was slated for game #1 of the Series......you gotta get to the Series before you can pitch in the damn thing. After winning the primary is when he has to appeal to all sorts--including moderate repukes and independents. This is EXACTLY what Dean is going to do which will leave his people pooping in their drawers but he is politician enough to keep the sheep bleating behind him as a populace savior. Wes didn't learn this trick. But he needs to learn it fast. It may be ugly, but it's politics and virgins don't win popularity contests.

[Pepperbelly]

90. I think the problem that Wesley is exhibiting can ...

be summaraized like this: they are bleaching the good stuff out of him and leaving behind a shadow of what he actually is and to win under those conditions will be a miracle.

These guys are screwing the pooch, Maybe it is because I am so close to the center of the thing here in Little Rock but watch for this please if you sense the good in Wesley that is there ... these guys are going to fuck him the same way they fucked Al Gore if Wesley lets them and right now, they are not allowing to dissenting voices to be heard within the cloistered circle. Wesley is working 18 hours out of every 24 and that is how the disservice they are doing eludes his attention.

[andym]

94. Can we write to Clark directly?

How can we write to Clark and have any hope of him seeing it?

[andym]

95. Ask the Clark Blog Team to setup a Suggestion Box

I just asked the Clark Blog Team to setup a virtual Suggestion Box.
The idea being that Clark would occasionally read through
the ideas and even respond to them.

Perhaps others should second this suggestion.

That way some of our concerns may be communicated directly to him.

[Pepperbelly]

96. most of the real powers in the campaign ...

have a vested interest in NOT allowing him to be aware of these problems. I have beat my head against that brick wall in Little Rock until I am ready to throw up my hands and give up.

[bicentennial_baby]

100. Have you talked to Gert?

Seriously, y'all are family, can you get in touch with her? What about Wes Jr?

[Capn Sunshine]

89. Look, I kid a lot, but I'm serious here

I've worked a LOT of campaigns in my day. I've seen this phenomena before. Unless I miss my guess, it will cause the Clark campaign to collapse inward upon itself.

What many grass roots Clark folk didn't understand is there was a REASON all the "leftover Clintonistas" weren't working on a campaign. That group was the troublemakers,no body who worked with them wanted them in their organization again, and they had aquired a reputation as such.

As you now see, they are more interested in internal mindgames positioning for power and excluding the defined "out group" than moving this campaign forward in a cohesive manner.

The way they have marginalized the main players in this, the Draft Clark movement, bears out my observations. These guys are poisonous star fuckers that only serve to derail the useful enthusiasm of the grass roots.

That's why I refer to Clarks campaign as the LAST media campaign, because the guys in there running it now are determined to do this via "traditional" sources and methods. Its a 20th century campaign in the 21st century. They need to get their power game limit access head trips out of this and realize who got them this far while they were sipping chardonnay in Martha's vinyard or having lunch at Letuce. If they don't , and I predict they won't , the result will be a complete deflation and ultimate loss of both momentum , fundraising ability , and primary votes.

[Clark Can WIN]

129. Strange, sounds like wishful thinking on your part

I've only seen a couple of crybabies and whiners complaining. I am in touch with hundreds of grassrooters and coordinators and we are all energized, optomistic and extraordinarily enthused.

I don't think you know anything at all about the Clark campaign. Clark is the biggest proponent of grassrooters of all. And the man is not the kind to be "handled".

[Dr Satan]

92. Who is wesley clark?

?

[Clark Can WIN]

131. You're going to sound pretty silly with that

After he's sworn in.

[union_maid]

93. I can understand a little blandness for the moment

As soon as he declared, things he said got twisted and his own words were used against him, to make it sound as though he had positions that he didn't have. He told about a couple of votes and people here who should know better are still referring to him as a life-long Republican. And of course the list goes on. His handlers might feel he needs to learn about how to express himself in a way that can't be so easilty miscontrued. For the primary season he has the most lethal enemies. Then there's the matter of issues. He's getting skewered for not having position papers ready to go on everything, despite his wilingness to discuss those issues when asked.

I don't know his handlers, of course. I've met exactly one person who does know them, or at least some of them and that's not a lot, but that person gave me a feeling of confidence. Yes, he's a poltico, but he knows his way around, and that's vital. As far as this talk about turning their back on grassroots support - I think a lot of that is just more talk. The meet-up I go to was started by a couple of people who were deeply involved in the draft movement and they have no problem with getting direction from an official campaign now. In fact, they welcome it and were very pleased to get a visit at the very first after-draft meet-up from some professionals who are working for Clark.

All that said, when there's time, he does need to get out in front of the people again and just be Wes Clark. That's the most convincing thing he can do, but the other work has to get done, too.

[ErasureAcer]

97. The Kucinich camp will be waiting for you with open arms.

www.kucinich.us

[_NorCal_D_]

102. LOL

proselytizing are we?
:)

[tlcandie]

103. I heard Michael Moore the other day with Amy Goodman discussing

candidates and the election and paraphrasing here...

"If any of the candidates come across as politically motivated or have any HINT of what is/has happened before in regards to presidencies/politics then I really don't think they will make it."

He stated as well the reason that ahhhnuld became grobenator was because it was the lesser of two evils...

Davis - professional republican politican
ahhhhnuld - regular republican guy

So, in other words, the choice for 2004 will be someone who isn't politically motivated and shows TRUTH and that they are not owned by anyone other than a passion and desire to do the right thing for the people.

Okay, that is probably as clear as mud :( What I'm saying is, he HAS to break free if he wants to survive and do HIS thing...trust his way to his OWN heart/intelligence/soul. We don't need or want another puppet.

I'm not dissing Clark or anyone else, please, I do not do that. I'm trying to offer some advice or information that I caught and passing it on in my own limited way. Furthermore, NO I do not think Michael Moore is god...I've actually no opinion about him atm.

Good luck Pepper!!! It is good to search for truth and stay true to yourself, no matter the outcome :hug:

[IranianDemocrat]

105. Kucinich/Nader all the way baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With Kucinich's 1% and Nader's 2% WE ARE ON OUR WAY TO NATIONAL DOMINATION!!!!!!!!!!!

[charlie]

106. If you're going to rag on Kucinich

at least put some effort into it. You're proud of your zinger, but it became tired around 100 posts ago.

[Clark Can WIN]

132. Hey I enjoyed it.

Not tired to me. First time I heard it. Nader can go to hell.



Twice.




As for Kucinich, I think the guys heart is in the right place but #1. Bush would win in the greatest landslide of all time against Kucinich. #2. Kuchinich has no realistic chance in the primaries.

[Terwilliger]

107. Funny

I was starting to turn around on some of the choices he made in his rhetoric (talking about PNAC, straightforward on other issues, etc.)

I am surprised to see your change of heart, bit it is *I* who now suggest you keep your options open :freak:

No, the world isn't going to end tomorrow :hi:

[knight_of_the_star]

108. Try to get in touch with your cousin

If the handlers refuse, then tell them to fuck off! You NEED to talk to him before its too late! Just tell those stupid handlers of his to fuck off, you're family and you NEED to talk to him! Do whatever you can to get in touch with him, talk with his wife, his son, ANYONE who can get the message to him. Ignore those stupid pukes that call tehmselves campaign managers, get to your cousin before its too late!

[incapsulated]

109. I guess I can't be dissappointed on that particular point...

Since I'm not trying to start a revolution or even radically change the system. None of the (likely) candidates are going to be anything else but ordinary polititians if elected. This election is, to me, not about a reform platform, it's about getting a bunch a lunatics out of the White House before they destroy this country (any further).

If playing it safe and calculating like a machine is what it takes, if a "bland" campaign is what it takes, so be it.

[robbedvoter]

112. He was plenty spontaneous in NYC 3 days ago

His reaction to a kid fainting on stage was both compassionate and humorous. I got to speak to him twice. He said to a NYC-er recently: "Rush is full of shit" (before it hit the fan). In spite of the new meme in the media he spoke right away and strongly about the 87 billion

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/story_National.php?storyid=44658

$87 billion Bush plan now moot, Clark says

So, 1 month into his campaign some guy in Arkansas starts sliming him and you think he's right. Well then, maybe you supported him for the wrong reasons.
I for one do not buy the "non-politician" aura. bush ran on this fake "quality". So did Adolf in Cali. So did Bloomberg in NYC.
Politicians can be great (Clinton, Byrd, Wellstone) or disgusting (bush, Adolf, Bloomberg and the other so called outsiders).
You may want to look a little deeper than labels media assigns.

[FrenchieCat]

115. I agree.....

It's all good!!!

Wes Wing!

Can't wait to have a real leader in the WH again!

My support is strong......cause I've got confidence in my choice..

Lord knows I've done enough fucking research....

The bottomline is God ain't running for no office.......(although Bushitco might argue that....the fool!)

[Clark Can WIN]

114. How sad Pepper

Please don't get mad.......... on second thought you probably will so nevermend, I'm going to say it anyway. It sounds more to me like you feel personaly put out because Wes isn't taking your calls right now. Sour grapes.

A great part of Wesley Clarks appeal is that he had not been a politician and that will continue to be a big draw for many. But I have a newsflash - - President of the United States? That's a political office and you have to politic to get there.

Wes is just trying to figure out the best way to get his message out to the masses. He's a contemplative and careful thinker and that doesn't always translate well to the choppy little attention deficit disorder sound bytes that media types subsist on. Lord help these poor little reporters following him, they might actually have to do some THINKING. This came into glaring focus on, what was it, day 3? When his comment on the Iraq vote got shredded, distorted and taken out of context and offered up to the public as something entirely different.

Do you really think Wesley Clark is going to be made to do something he doesn't want to do by anyone? He's being "handled"? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure a school of fish will pass by my porch on bicycles before Wesley Clark allows himself to be "handled."

I'm not his cousin, but I've listened to the man speak many times and even had the pleasure of spending a couple of days with the campaign. Whether it was speeches, town hall forums or just watching him interact with patrons in a diner I ALWAYS came away from seeing him inspired and fired up. The man is awesome.

This reporter seems to be offended because Wesley isn't saying what he wants him to say, or do what he wants him to do. I guess that's why he's just a dime a dozen "too cool for my shoes" reporter and Wesley Clark is a highly decorated four star general with a brilliant history of personal acievement and a chance to change the world for the better.

I'll stick with Wesley.

[robbedvoter]

116. Again, bush, Arnie campaigned as outsiders...sigh...old clichee

Clark doesn't need to impersonate anyone (inside or out - it's all spin anyway) He is who he is and that's why we drafted him. As for neediness for our candidate to do what we asked for - there've been some bloated egos (besides your pal journalist) bristling at not being listened to. So much so, that this guy made fun of them here:

n Open Letter to the Clark Movement: Rough Draft
http://tooney.catch.com/entry.php?id=P21988_0_15_0
Have fun!!!

[Trahurn]

119. Also disillusioned

No one is more disappointed about the cheap paint job on General Clark beginning to flake off then I am. I was having the hairs on the back of my neck bristle when 10 days to 2 weeks ago I heard a report that General Clark was having a very hard time saying the word "democrat" Well we were stuck with a "fraud" in the white house in 2000. I'll be damned if I vote for anyone that has any kind words for George Bush or chokes on the word "democrat." Four stars not withstanding. I don't think he now has much chance of winning the nomination. Pitty.

[Bertrand]

124. Deleted

Dupe

[Bertrand]

125. Could you link that charge

i would like to see it validated by hard evidence.

[Shakespeare]

130. That is NOT TRUE--and I suspect you know that.

"having a very hard time saying the word 'democrat'"--bullshit. Clark has proudly proclaimed himself a democrat and a liberal, and has not prevaricated from that one iota.

If you're looking for a reason not to like the man, at least look for something at least vaguely resembling the truth.

[janekat]

121. Welcome to the "real world" of politics...

I've worked on 7 campaigns and they're all the same. Yes, even McGovern's.

Welcome to the world of reality...

[janekat]

122. Nice of you to sell your cousin down the river....

if he really is your cousin...

[charlie]

123. So you can't tell a lament from a swipe? n/t

[Tinoire]

126. Nice. Sweet! Just the kind of crap that's a total turn off

It is NO wonder Clark isn't doing as well on this board as he could. With supporters who come up with garbage like that, how could he?

Pepperbelly and exactly 2 other Clark supporters on this board are the only ones making any positive, worthwhile contributions for him.

You just reemphasized that he has too many supporters who have that freeper mentality of not breaking ranks, not thinking independently.

And for your edification, Pepperbelly did not sell his cousin down the river- simply expressed severe disatisfaction at the way the campaign is being run. If you can't see there are some problems, then you are part of the Clark campaign's problem.

It's unfortunate that nuance was lost on you. People are going out of their way to be supportive to a fellow DUer and here you come with those heavy boots. :barf:

Back off.

[janekat]

128. Campaign insiders shouldn't break their trust

unless the candidate really steps over the line or there's a law being broken. Sorry - but that is my pet peeve. These candidates trust a small group of people to be around them and like to feel that they can trust them.

I've worked on several campaigns and I don't believe that one should "blab" about the inner workings. If you are disgruntled then quit or talk in private to a friend. He just skewered his candidate in front of 30,000 people.

None of these campagins are pretty. If every candidates top people blabbed about what was REALLY going on behind the scenes NO-ONE would get elected.

[incapsulated]

135. I take loyalty pretty seriously when it comes to family, myself

If PB really is his cousin, unless Clark did something incredibly wrong, I can't understand publicly announcing your various "doubts" and personal "disappointments".

I mean, if you have decided not to vote for him, fine. But if he really is family, keep the rest to yourself.

That's just how I feel.

:shrug:

[Tinoire]

138. You were not talking to a campaign insider!

You were talking someone most of us consider a fellow DUer and a fellow DUer of GOOD standing.

Pepperbelly didn't say anything most of us didn't already know. Only a blind, partial fool could miss it.

Don't think of DUers as people with freeper mentalities who are more interested in appearances than substance. You missed the whole point of the original post just as you miss why 95% of Clark supporters posts have not been effective here.

And once again, he did not "skewer" his candidate in front of 30,000 people. If anything, he just HELPED his candidate which is something most of you haven't been able to do.

The trust betrayal is coming from the people who just want to clap and cheer the parade and make a lot of noise as it passes by thinking that that's going to impress anyone. Had you been more than a few months on this board, you would have understood that, unlike the New Dems or Republicans, we are looking for substance. Clark's campaign is floundering here because the substance and spark are not coming through.

This board is/was a family and as a family we talk openly even if we squabble and fight at times. Pepperbelly's post did more to help Clark than 90 percent of the vanilla propaganda posts we have to wade through. At least now some of us believe that there just may be a spark there.

And what blabbering of inner workings? Nothing was said here that isn't apparent to anyone who looks.

1. We don't play by DLC rules here.
2. Pepperbelly is not on Clark's campaign - we already have a good idea of who is.
3. Pepperbelly understands that vanilla packaging will not win this one.

Please excuse us as we try to cut through the crap and see who people really are. That's all we're going to buy this time- real people based on who they really are. And the Clark handlers have done a dismal job. It's refreshing to hear someone own up to that and want to fix it rather than sit still and watch the ship crash.

Once again this is not a propaganda board. It's a discussion board.

[incapsulated]

142. "Cousin Wesley"

That's how he decided to head the thread.

DU is a forum, and though any forum may start to feel like family, it is most definately not your real family. I would like to think that my real relatives wouldn't talk ill of me, or my career (or campaign), on a forum that anyone could read on the internet. By name. There are some things more important than having an "honest debate" about politics with people you don't even know. Family is one of them. Nothing he said hasn't been posted before or won't be again. So why bring it up except to draw attention to the fact that you are saying it as his cousin and an insider?

[Tinoire]

149. Lord have mercy!

It is more than obvious that you don't know DU. There's not a damn person here who doesn't know that Pepperbelly is Clark's cousin. Who did you want to fool? Yourself?

Not one ill thing was said in the post about Clark or of his career; putting campaign in quotes after career doesn't put campaign on par with self or career.

Once again Pepperbelly is not an insider. Just because you may have misunderstood doesn't mean DUers did.

There must be over a thousand posts here where the family relationship was obvious. Why is this the only one that bothers you?
I'm just glad none of you know who Pepperbelly really is and I hope he doesn't take this crap to heart.

It's obvious he cares about DU, Clark and the Democratic Party though I'm wondering if you do. You seem to care more about appearances and are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

And back to the family thing- you'd be astonished how many of us know each other and actually care for each other. A care that was built on years of trust and talking and meeting and fighting. Plane flights, visits, outings, marches, parties, phone calls, web cams, conference calls, conferences... you name it and it's 3 degrees of separation.

No attention was drawn was drawn to anything.

[incapsulated]

151. What are you talking about??

Where did I say that he was lying about Clark being his cousin??

My whole point was that yakking about your cousin the candidate in a public forum was hardly a heartwarming tribute to family togetherness. Especially when all he is guilty of is not living up to your high expectations and acting "like a politician" while running for political office *gasp*.

It's not just you and your little sewing circle here you know, anyone can read it, and they do, including the fucking Wall Street Journal.

Let's say Howard Dean was my cousin.

I don't like Dean much, and even if he was my blood relative, he wouldn't be my first choice. I would work, annonymously, on behalf of someone else.

I cannot imagine, however, posting that he was my cousin on a public forum, and saying: "I have doubts about this guy, who many of you know is my own cousin. He's not all that! Here is a link to some newspaper saying more unflattering shit about him..."

But that's me. Maybe some people don't care about such things, and would rather impress their "internet family".

[unfrigginreal]

144. To some, selling out to politics as usual IS stepping over the line...

unfortunately too many in our party fail to see that it's costing us. I would suggest that PB isn't the only one that had high hopes for a maverick General to get into the race only to be disillusioned by yet another politician.

[Clark Can WIN]

137. Total bullshit Tinoire,

The title of the post is "I am beginning to have second thoughts about Cousin Wesley"

NOT

"I am beginning to have second thoughts about Clark campaign"


That is selling down the river. It's unfortunate that this OBVIOUS POINT is lost on you.

YOU back off.

[Tinoire]

139. What is it about some of you people?

You're like a Stepford Brigade! Read the posts in this thread and tell me people didn't understand the point of the original post.

But packaging again right? Unlike most DUers, you're not used to looking past the packaging! You'd rather push a load of horse-shit on people who can see right through it.

Let me guess. Reagan Democrat coming home and not quite understanding how it works anymore? DU is a family- if you don't like it, well...

Hint: Progressives and most Democrats react a lot better to sincerity than to propaganda or packaging. That nuance, of course, seems to be totally lost on you.

[Clark Can WIN]

143. This may be shocking to YOU

but most people consider loyalty to blood relatives they purport to support to be more important than any internet family.

I love how you don't know shit about me and try to smear me with "Reagan democrat"

Packaging my ass

You were wrong, you just didn't like getting called on it.

[gully]

146. This is really uncalled for.

:puke:

[Donna Zen]

127. To PB with love:

Wesley Clark is 58 years old, and while we all grow if we are in tune to the music, our roots are strong; his roots are strong.

No amount of handling will change your cousin.

The grassroots, for all of the nay saying that is being spun, is strong and getting stronger. There were always two grassroots movements that did not get along, John Hlinko is in Little Rock and some of the second team have also been successfully integrated.

Clark said that pulling this campaign together has been like sailing the Atlantic while building the boat; you gotta hope for a few mermaids.

Mermaids in the house!

We out here in cyber-land are the mermaids. Whoever has been chosen to build the ship will either succeed or fail. We cannot control that; we can only control those tasks that come to us.

Clark's vision for our country is one we should all look to, because he is saying things that have needed to be said in this country for far too long. He has never been a candidate, a politician, or a legislator. What he has been is someone inside the system; the permanent government. He knows where the flaws are; he knows where the bodies are buried. His life's story and his past actions, tell us that he is focused like a lazer-beam on change and renewal of what this country stands for in order to form a more perfect union. Wesley Clark has never suffered fools lightly, he is not about to begin to do so today.

I received an email with a short discussion of Clark's new book:

He also does a very thorough destruction of Rumsfeld and some of his claims. In some ways, I think he has set a number of traps for both Bush and Rumsfeld with his critiqe of planning for post conflict action in Iraq. In order to counter Clark they almost have to argue against their own previous statements and policy positions. I think in particular he sets up the argument that the military should not be expected to "do everything" -- such as rebuild schools, health clinics, organize town councils and all the rest -- and basicly what he then does is show that over the years the Republicans have hamstrumg or simply abolished the civilian groups that should be around to do these things. Done right he can have Bush and the Republicans arguing with themselves on this one.

Gabriel Garcia Marquez mentions that in his meeting with Wesley Clark, the General tends to speak in the abstract.

I think that Clark always starts with the "big picture" and then works into what he calls: "the policies, the resourcing and the tooling." That is how he thinks, that is why he gets the job done, that is why we need him in the WH. So f**k the handlers, let them do the bookings, get him on the ballot, and set the schedules...that is what they are paid to do.

Clark will be Clark, and that is a given.

[jumptheshadow]

134. "Sailing the Atlantic while building the boat"

LOL. That's a perfect description.

I'm glad that Clark is back home now. I hope he takes a few days off to evaluate the first four weeks of the campaign and energize and focus for the battles ahead.

You know one of my problems? I really want to see this guy do well. I think he could be very good for this country. But I have such high expectations of him that I find myself disappointed when he doesn't bowl me over.

I'll get over it. And I suspect he will get much, much better in the days to come.

It is obvious that the RW wants to knock him off as early as possible because they fear that if Clark's in the spotlight it could bolster the campaign of any Democrat who winds up running against Bush.

[OKNancy]

136. Donna Z - I'm proud

to call you a fellow Clark supporter. You're the best.

[Donna Zen]

148. The same to you Nancy!

Seriously, I am less worried about Gen. Clark being handled than I am about his being sick. We all noticed his lack of focus during the Iowa townhall meeting, the next day at the SC forum, it became obvious that he was ill. He never stopped for recovery time during the following days, and kept up an overwhelming schedule.

That said, we take the tools that we find, and then make the most of them. If Wesley Clark is now resting, then he must use this time to his advantage.

[gully]

141. Thank you. I agree, and I as a Dean supporter have been disapointed

as well. But, in Clarks defense, he's still the front runner.

While that is also discouraging b/c it speaks to the mentality of our nation. Not that I have anything against Clark perse, I just want to know his friggin positions!? But, apparently all that matters to the status quo is that he looks good in uniform?

Also, keep in mind...Clark was drafted, so things will be a bit more 'sloppy' then the other campaigns. But tis true, his 'handlers' are not doing such a hot job. And, it's a pity really, because it may reflect on the campaign eventually.

Peace and may the best man/woman win!

Sorry just realized Wes was your cousin. Well, I wish they'd let you speak to the man, because you speak the truth.

[twilight]

145. don't worry, you are not alone !

I simply don't trust this guy WHOEVER THE HELL HE REALLY IS!

Will I vote for him, probably yes IF he is the nominee, but ONLY IF!

:dem: :kick:

[diamondsoul]

150. Hang in there PB.

I've been a little disappointed with the way things have been going myself, BUT-

The more I watch of him, the more I think he's going to break out of this before too long. I get the feeling he's just trying to find his "sweet spot", and he's slowly getting there. Absolutely try to get through to him however you can think to do it because you're right about them cloistering him away like that.

It's stupid to not let him hear any criticism of how he comes across, absolutely, utterly deadly to a campaign. For that reason I suggest continuing your efforts to get through, but also keeping some faith in Wes. I'm not convinced he can stay muted when he's motivated about a particular issue. ;)

[cosmicdot]

152. that's cool ... it's OK

as I've stated before ... I've been there ... not on the level you are on ... on the Congressional level ... it's not easy ... but, it's OK ... peace to you