I'm A Man I'm Liberal And Yes I Consider My Self A Feminist. Do You

[DEM FAN]

Have A Problem With That. ;-)

[Darth_Kitten]

1. Are you single and into birds?

;) :thumbsup:

sorry. :evilgrin:

[knight_of_the_star]

2. ok...

Whatever floats your boat dude.

[brainshrub]

3. Right on! Same here n/t

[veganwitch]

4. *swoon*

can i marry you? we can go poly.

(currently in a relationship with a male)

[VOX]

5. Not at all. And your cheeks have a fine color when you're on the scrap!

:toast: :hi:

On edit: Forgot to add -- I am all these too, and my dear wife sure appreciates it! :hi:

[jumptheshadow]

6. Too bad you live in Florida

We have a gorgeous, liberal female friend in Seattle who just can't seem to meet the right guy. :(

[Gin]

8. Im single, a Democrat, a feminist...and in menopause...so ..I'm becoming

the man I always wanted to marry.

We have a lot in common! :)

[Terwilliger]

7. You Femiberal!

or, is that a Leminist? :D

OnEdit: Lemininst -> Leminist (want to make sure my made-up word is spelled right :-) )

[Scaramouche]

9. I'm a Man, I'm a Girl, I'm a One Night Stand...

You made me think of that song...

[arcos]

23. Lovage!!!

Lovage is wonderful! Glad to see someone else here who knows that CD. :hi:

[Cat Atomic]

10. I'm just gassy.

:P

[Character Assassin]

11. What is a feminist, anyway?

I mean, I'm 36, been around the world and seen the worst of the human condition and nature, but I'd like to know you're opinion, since you started this post.

I think I know, and that's particularly difficult, living around Santa Cruz, CA, but I'd appreciate your input.

[Selwynn]

88. Feminism is the radical notion that woman are people (nt)

[nolabels]

95. What is even funnier is the things that never get talked about

The invisible hand women wield over much of society that many socially trained men abstain from if and whenever they do find about it. Women are the glue that keep things together so many times but never get the credit. The raise the men that get used for cannon fodder by arrogant military generals, yet in some venues they get spit upon by some of the soldiers themselves.

They are ones protect the babies when they are not even aware enough to raise their hands to protect their face. They do so much so many times in many varied situations but so many males are oblivious to the facts of the situation. I tell you guys we are doing a bad and disrespectful thing to the other half+ of our situation here.

To me the phrase "behind every great man stands a great women" and the knowing that successes of women are measured in different terms then men are aware of very often. A couple crucial ones I heard is woman’s ability to collect important things or things of importance and being able gather around them large kinships. This isn't advertised but it's easy to see where it leaves its mark

[kodi]

12. yes, why be divisive. why not be a humanist.

unless you think feminism trumps humanism.

at base, your declaration of being a feminist means either you consider that feminism as a philosophy is more inclusive than humanism, or that you are merely inflecting a humanist attitude onto the historical inequalities females have endured.

if it is the former, you are being sexist and elitist; if the latter you are using the wrong rhetoric to explain your expansive world view because the philosophy of humanism does not compartmentalize as feminism does. unless you really meant that yours is an exclusive, not inclusive philosophy.

[Scaramouche]

16. Yeah, That's right!

I'd rather be a humanist than a machinist...

[dreissig]

53. Machinists Have a Better Union

Last I heard there were lots of humanists out of work ...

[Woodstock]

24. Yes, by all means, women don't need an extra boost

Since as we know, the one size fits all approach has served them SO well throughout history (sarcasm intended.) And of course, there is no need to look out for ethinic minorities or the poor or the disabled - that's such an "elitist" phliosophy. No, to be sure, "humanism" will cover everyone's needs - there's no need to make any special efforts on their behalf, as again, we know from history that such efforts are completely unnecessary (sarcasm intended.) But back to women, for now. They've come so far, you might say. So let's do away such "sexist and elitist" notions as efforts on their behalf in particular. I say, we've made a start, but have a long way to go. Imagine if men awoke one day to a world like this:

A world in which no man had ever served as president, nor bothered to run, because he'd know he couldn't be elected. A world in which 90% of the elected representatives are women - and most of the judges are women - and they are all making life or death decisions about his body (yes let's extend this role reversal to men being the ones who bear children.) A law is about to pass that doesn't even take into account danger to a man's health or life. Even basic reproductive costs are not covered by insurance - birth control - yet a pill to increase arousal of women is covered. There was only one male hero in the bible who was left in by the females who ruled and edited it in the past, but only because they changed him into a prostitute. The woman serving as president believes the female apostle in the bible (who didn't agree with Jesus that men and women are equal) - she said women are the leaders and men must follow them - and she is determined to make this philosophy part of the law (she doesn't believe in the separation of church and state, and she is getting her way, both by changing laws and by appointing lots of judges who agree with her philosophy.) A lot is said about religious extremist governments that favor women in other countries, but it's happening right here in our own country. Men are making less than women for the same work. Men's bosses have been mostly women, and if not, then it's for sure that their bosses are women. Women run most of the companies and control the vast majority of the wealth. Men are pictured in the media a full 25% below normal weight, and the odd thing is, most of the time the majority of their clothes are off (while women are fully clothed.) And many of these emaciated men have implants to make them look more desirable to women. Little boys are fainting in elementary school because they aren't eating - they think they are too fat. There's a whole set of sexually demeaning insults set up to put men down that are still tolerated by some women who just don't get it. Men are afraid to walk to his car after dark, even in nice neighborhoods, because he fears he might get raped. Rapes of men occur in alarming numbers every minute of every day. All the other men in history were pretty much wiped off the record, until a few men decided to get together and create Mens Studies programs (that are now being dismantled by female legislators.) It seems like the female president and the 90% female legistlators and all of those female judges don't understand what it's like for him as a man - but what can men do to make them understand? And what about other countries? Not very long ago, men couldn't vote or own property, and in too many places in the world today, similar inequalities exist between men and women. In some countries men can't leave their house, and in some they must be covered from head to foot (in case a woman might find them arousing.) Different laws exist for men and women; sometimes if a woman strays that is fine, but if a man strays, he is ordered to be stoned to death. In some countries, mens' genitals are being cut off just because they are born men (and they won't stray from their wives this way.)

[spooky3]

25. great post, thanks.

[Woodstock]

28. having to write that is proof that lots of work is still needed!

:)

[kodi]

30. thanks, you made my point that feminism is an exclusitory philosophy

all you did was recite what history shows us. nothing you posted illustrated the basic and underlying philosophical perspective present in feminism as to why women are inherently equal. either you believe in human rights for both sexes or you do not, and any basic principles focus on common humanity, not common genitalia.

the tenets of humanism, ie, that we are all created equal, is a priori to any reactionary doctrine such as feminist or minority rights. and by reactionary i refer to reaction to inequality.

there is nothing in a humanist perspective that precludes as you aspparently indicate, an understanding of the ugly historical facts that have undermined women's rights, nor does humanism preclude action towards securing, finally, equality for women.

rigorous analysis of the historical inequalities women have endured has to be based upon true human rights. anything less diminishes both sexes, and sets up a "separate, but equal" mentality that ghettoizes women.

if you want to deconstruct humanism from a feminist perspective, go right ahead. you will find that the underlying base for each is the same, and humanism is more inclusive, and is essentially a philosophy that springs from a perspective that "I am a soul who happens to have a body."

[Woodstock]

58. You seek to diminish the very real concerns of women in our society

Your lovely red herring aside, I believe what you are attempting to do is to diminish the very real need for special advocacy for women in our society.

The day one truly has trouble with the answer to the following question is the day I will I will believe no special advocacy need be made for the other groups.

Hint (the answer also happens to be the group that has the most wealth and power.)

Which group has by far the least challenges to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" throughout the world?

a) men (non-minorities in the region)
b) women
c) children
d) disabled
e) minorities in the region

[veganwitch]

59. humanism, i find,

assumes everything is peachy and that all people are already on an equal plane and that humanism is needed only to fix little prejudices that spring up.

as woodstock's post shows, that is not the case.

also, its brought up by folk who dont want to question their assumptions (privilege?) about the world.



a man of quality is not afraid of a woman for equality.

[knight_of_the_star]

42. That's rather blunt

But well-stated. Another reason that I favor egalitarian treatment of all people over favoratism. In my eyes, all humans are the same on the most basic level that counts anyway:

THEY ARE HUMAN.

[Woodstock]

60. But the challenges facing each group is dispproportionate

Your one size fits all approach has led to the problems we see - to tuck them into one nice little package is to tuck them away - but I'm sure you are aware of that.

[Selwynn]

93. No one is advocating favortism -

However certain indivduals feel particularly compelled to focus on an area of specific need. There is nothing wrong with that.

When my Son annouces "I am going to be a doctor." I am not going to say, "why don't you just be a good human being, why do you need to favor one profession over another? Are you looking down at other professions you elitist bastard??" :)

Like a doctory who is a doctor, but specializes in brain surgery, my field may be humanism, but my specialization is feminism. Nothing wrong with that. And I think coming out on the attack, and insinuating that people who identifiy with "feminism" in some form or another are elitist or misguided really does little but make me think about reasons why perhaps I would not want to be identified with the label "humanist." :)

[Selwynn]

92. feminsim is specifically needed...

consider it a "subset" of humanism, particularly focused on womans issues, which is a much needed focus.

[maggrwaggr]

13. Alan Alda! Welcome!

What's your point? Are you trying to meet women?

What, these days, when little girls are worshipping the likes of Britney Spears, is a "feminist?"

[DrFunkenstein]

14. Anyone Familiar With The Band "Lush?"

Ladykiller

Here we go, I'm hanging out in Camden
Drinking with my girlfriends on a Saturday night
This guy says , "come and meet my girlfriend "
She's sitting in the corner looking rather uptight
So I say "hello " and I try to be nice
But I see he's feeling itchy
Trying to play us off each other
"Girls , girls , please don't fight "
(you get the picture )

Hey you, the muscles and the long hair
Telling me that women are superior to men
Most guys just don't appreciate this
You just try convincing me you're better than them
So he talks for hours 'bout his sensitive soul
And his favourite subject is sex
I don't think he even really wanted it
But, Christ , this guy's too much

(I wanna tell him)

I'm as human as the next girl , I like a bit of flattery
But I don't need your practised lines ,
your school of charm mentality so
Save your breath for someone else and credit me with something more
When it comes to men like you,
I know the score , I've heard it all before

(Here comes the next one)

Blondie was with me for a summer
He flirted like a maniac but I wouldn't bite
I'm weak and he was so persistent
He only had to have me 'cause I put up a fight
Oh God, the boy had such an ego
He liked to talk about himself all day and all night
You think you're such a ladykiller
But you were nothing special 'til you turned out the light
When he's nice to me he's just nice to himself
And he's watching his reflection
I'm a five foot mirror for adoring himself
Here's seven years' bad luck

Ooh, you're such a ladykiller, always on a winner, thinking that you're in there
Oh boy, you're such a ladykiller, super sexy mister , call it what you will ,oh
You think you're such a ladykiller, I just bet you're still there, posing in the mirror
Hey girls , he's such a ladykiller, but we know where he's coming from and we know the score.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

65. Lush is great, I love this song and this CD is my favorite of theirs. n/t

n/t

[Nikia]

15. Good for you

We need more men like you. Feminism really needs the support of men too.

[Brucey]

17. If a feminist is a person who

believes that women are human beings and therefore deserve all the respect, representation, and opportunities as a man, then, yes, of course, who would not be proud to call themself a feminist!

[Woodstock]

18. Lots of men are feminists

You think men & women are equal, you're a feminist (in my book.)

There is nothing sexier than a guy who TRULY believes men and women are equal.

[dweller]

19. Time for a sing-a-long!

Sensitive New Age Guys

Who like to talk about their feelings?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who's into crystals, into healing?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who like to dress like Richard Simmons?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who are hard to tell from women?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who like to cry at weddings?
Who think boxing is upsetting?
Who tapes "Thirty Something" on their VCR,
Who's got "Baby on Board" stickers on their cars, oh,
(Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh)

Whose last names are hypenated?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who like "Three Men and a Baby" a movie I hated?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Whose consciousness is constantly raising?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Whose tax free income is amazing?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who thinks that red meat is disgusting?
Who's into UFO's channeling, and usting?
Who believes us when we say we've got premenstrual syndrome?
Who doesn't know who plays in the Seattle Kingdome?

Who likes music that repetitious?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who likes music that's repetitious?
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who's concerned about your orgasm? (silence)
Well, I guess it's more important that they have 'em.
(Sensitive new age guys.)
Who carries the baby on his back?
Who thinks Shirley MacLaine is on the inside track?
Who always sings on sing-alongs,
Even when they can't stand stupid sing-along songs?

Words and Music by Christine Lavin and John Gorka
Copyright 1990 CL2 (ASCAP) & Blues Palace Music (ASCAP)

to all my fellow snags,

dp

[veganwitch]

56. i heart men who wear snugglies

there are quite a few in my part of town.

*swoon*

[dweller]

80. snugglies as in baby carriers?

that's what we called them, carried the baby against your chest up close.
yeah, i wore one often, with 2 daughters.
I really hated parting with that bit of cloth, like many other baby momentos. Well, they weren't really momentos, just little reminders of the frailty of my daughters as babies, and the closeness we had then.
I passed along so much tho to other new parents.
I still have all the baby teeth left under pillows. What will i do with those?
and locks of hair i want woven one day.

dp

[JNelson6563]

20. what's that phrase again?

I'll be a former-feminist in a post patriarchal society...something like that.

Julie

[Iverson]

22. (chortle)

;-)

[spooky3]

26. that's great! also "humanism" has a very different meaning

from simply an extension of the principles of feminism. You might want to check out the American Humanist Association website.

[JNelson6563]

32. thanks for the tip

I do actually consider myself to be a humanist.

To humanism! :toast:

Julie

[Darranar]

21. I'm a feministic male too!

[spooky3]

27. we love you all and wish there were more of you! (eom)

[sangha]

29. I'm a humanist

I like all humans

[maggrwaggr]

31. You know what? Your post bugs the hell out of me.

Quit shaving your armpits, pal. Get a life. Go watch some strippers and be happy God made you a man.

Chicks hate guys who pander. They like real men. Get a clue.

[Nikia]

33. Sexist a**holes bug the hell out of me

A real man has nothing to fear from women being given equality. A real man does not need women to be put down to feel better about himself. A strong alpha type male that you apparently think is the pinnacle of humanity wouldn't need an extra advantage given to him just because he is male, would he? This woman and most other emotionally healthy women, including those strippers, like men who respect women.

[maggrwaggr]

34. I respect women. I also like women who act like women

Men aren't women, women aren't men. We're different and I"m glad of it.

[Nikia]

35. Could you expand your theories of men and women?

I believe that men and women should be treated equally and should have equal oppurtunities. I believe that discrimination based on status group is always wrong and that sexism is one of the most acceptable discriminations currently. There are of course physical differnces between men and women and may be some inborn behaviorial tendencies. Humans are a highly learning and reasoning species though and there are many differences between cultures in what traits are considered male and what traits are considered female. All men aren't the same and all women aren't the same. I beleive in the rights of people to be individuals.
That is what I believe. What do you believe? What is a man acting like a man and a woman like a woman?

[maggrwaggr]

76. Okay ...

Women acting like men: those big-shouldered female business suits of the 80's. Women who think they have to say "fuck" a lot around men to get their respect. Ann Coulter.

Men acting like women: Guys who join PETA to meet chicks. Guys who post posts like this to meet chicks. Guys who listen to Tori Amos. Guys who think that women will like them if they act basically like women.

But it's like Republican lite. If a woman wants to hang out with a woman, she'll go hang out with actual women. Straight women like men to be men, not men who pander to women. A man acting like a woman is not going to get the woman's vote. With the exception of fag hags, which is something I just don't understand.

I'm 100% for equal rights and equal freedom and freedom for all to do whatever the heck they want. However, this poster just really annoyed me because I couldn't for the life of me see why he would post such a post unless it was just to show off for women. Which strikes me as kind of gross. Do it in the lounge, not here.

I'm 41, I have two kids, I change diapers and wash dishes. I also have a beard, like to fish and watch football. I love my wife and am constantly amazed at the things she is capable of doing. I cannot do them. I cannot breast feed. I'm not going to act like I want to.

[Lilith Velkor]

79. fag hagdom explained

I had a gay male best friend for many years. We had each other's back in the club scene, to wit: if the guy I was hitting on turned out to be gay, I'd introduce him to my friend. He, in turn, introduced me to straight guys who happened to be sensitive artsy types, which I prefer.

Of course, many straight guys were scared off by my gay best buddy, but who the hell needs a football-obsessed lout with an overly narrow definition of what is appropriate behavior for each sex? Not I.

As for hanging out with straight women, for me personally, the benefits are not worth the backstabbing that always comes when their boyfriends/husbands hit on me. I no longer pretend friendship with them.

You seem to make an interesting set of assumptions about the original poster. How do you know whether he's single or not? Why do you think he has any desire to breastfeed? Do you assume that all liberal men are pansies, or just the ones that call themselves feminists?

[Nobody]

37. I'm a woman, therefore every time I do something I act like a woman n/t

[Nobody]

36. A real man is a human with XY chromosomes

And you're also assuming that some humans with XY chromosomes aren't real men. What are they androids?

[Blue_Chill]

41. You know what "real man" means in this context

Why pretend you don't?

[bicentennial_baby]

43. No really

What is a "real man", by your definition?

[Blue_Chill]

48. My definition is of no consequence

My point was that we all know what "reall man" means in our society. If you want to rewqrite that fine, but don't play dumb.

[Nobody]

44. Who says you get to define what a "real man" is?

To me, a real man has XY chromosomes and I have biology to back me up. What do you have?

[Blue_Chill]

46. I'm not saying it's right

I'm saying that you are playing dumb.

[Nobody]

49. You still haven't backed up your statement

If a "real man" isn't defined by XY chromosomes, what does define a "real man"?

Keep in mind that it can't also apply to females. Bet you can't.

[Blue_Chill]

50. What statement?

That you know what "real man" means in this context? Where did I calim it was right? Seriously if you want to try to back me in a corner you'll need to brush up on your reading skills.

[Nobody]

51. My point, since you keep missing it

The point is not what's right, the point I was making several replies ago was that a real man is a human male with XY chromosomes. That's all the definition I need.

Any man or woman can have numerous qualities, which can apply to both sexes. Courage. I know courageous men and courageous women. I'm sure you do, too. I also know cowards of both sexes. But ascribing courage as a manly or womanly quality is inaccurate as any human being has the capacity to be couragreous or cowardly.

The problem with semantics is that a person can misunderstand other people easily. Any subjective description means different things to different people.

If you think I know what maggrwaggrs (and your) definition of what constitutes a "real man", you're wrong. "real man" is a descriptor that is ambiguous at best. A little clarification would be helpful. My telepathic powers are not working today or any other day.

on edit: had to correct the $@^@(E%#@ typos.

[Woodstock]

64. You did better than me

I couldn't bring myself to respond - I figured, this one's too far gone.

[Cheswick2.0]

39. what's wrong, Mommy didn't breast feed you?

Was she too tough during potty training? Exactly what makes a man afraid of women?

[maggrwaggr]

77. afraid of women? I love women!

See, that's the kind of BS I'm talking about, the assumptions inherent in a PC mindset.

I tell a guy to quit being a pussy and you tell me I'm afraid of women?

The feminist movement was sorta like communism. A natural and necessary karmic response to opression. And like communism, it's died out.

Where is feminism now? Madonna pretty much killed it off.

Are you all the same people who cheered at the Britney/Madonna kiss? You call that feminism? That was basic prime time porn, women exploiting their own sexuality to sell records.

Now THAT'S offensive.

[Blue_Chill]

82. You can't say that

Calling another man "a pussy" is is supporting the great injustice of gender roles on our society. You shouldn't mind if your straight friend shows up for backyard football in a hot pink dress. If you do mind PC logic dictates that you should live in a cave and drag your hands along the ground while walking.

Got it punk? err I mean Do you understand that fellow human?

[nolabels]

87. This is as much a biological question as it is about philosophy or......

psychology or any other number of scholarly endeavors. Some men have been born with certain characteristics and others the opposite of such. They call me pussy, I call them fat and stupid or not at all, at any rate it’s about dominance over another.

I have to chuckle for our inept education system in the US. The education system that spent years saying how it was about choice, freedom and associations with society that make up the totality of its motives. While it conveniently left out biological urges (a puritans ideal world, I guess).

In my late teens I viewed an experiment on a PBS station were they injected female rats with hormones from the opposite sex. The need for the females to mount the males was comical.

No, I don’t think people are just like rats, but in a wider cellular pattern most of life is similar. Even fungi run in such gambits of dominance and control, what the heck do think penicillin is made from

[Stuckinthebush]

47. I can understand your position

When I was in Junior High School, I had an immature view of gender issues as well. Around High School, my critical thinking skills began to develop and I started to look at the world differently. I don't condemn you for your lack of those skills at this time because I don't think you are there from a developmental stand point. However, when you do get out of Junior High School, you will start to understand - albeit in a rudimentary form - the power society has on shaping our views of "man" and "woman". Good luck, and keep an open mind as you move on through your education.

[Truthaddict]

52. Real men are feminists!

Get a clue...

[Blue_Chill]

54. So then real men

not doing anything about boys failing in schools?

please....

[veganwitch]

55. so what exactly are you doing about it?

other than blaming NOW and other feminist organisations?

there is a area of studies that sprung from women's studies called men studies. chris kilmartin is a leading scholar in the field. check out his comedy/spoken word/one act play called crimes against nature. http://www.crimesagainstnature.org/

also jackson katz did a video called tough guise www.jacksonkatz.com

women saw a problem (their oppression as a general term) and strove to fix it-thus the women's movement. im sure they're not sorry that they didnt try to do everything considering women are already expected to work forty hours a week, tend to children and keep the house in perfect order and have dinner ready at anyones beckon call. women are socialised to be totally self-sacrificing and self-effacing and for once they said "f- you". and thank goddess for all of other bold fore-sisters.

please check out these resources and do the work your own damn self.


edit: to add chris kilmartin info and grammar

[Blue_Chill]

57. So why do feminist org's oppose me doing anything about it?

Maybe I wouldn't be bitching about it if everytime someone did try to do something about it NOW and others didn't start complainging that we want to favor men.

Thanks however for admitting that feminsim is no longer about equal rights. Not a single man should support that bullshit movement.

[veganwitch]

61. please explain how i "admitted"

feminism is no longer about equal rights.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

62. If boys are falling behind in school, why do they still earn more

than women when they enter the work force? The answer is that it is still a man's world in business and an old boy network exists that benefits men. Women still earn about 80 cents on the dollar compared to men (and it is lower in some regions). while women from my generation (thirties) benefitted from Title 9 in athletics and excelled beyond our male counterparts academically, we are still discriminated against in business, and barred from the old boys' club.

[Blue_Chill]

63. Two different problems

More women are evtering the work force with college degrees because men are failing in schools. That's one problem.

Women are being paid less for the same jobs. That is another problem.

Feminism stood for equal rights at one point. They still should.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

66. No, they are connected

It doesn't matter whether a woman is equally or better qualified in business. I have worked with men who never finished college who make more money than me (I have a Master's). I am not alone-ask any woman on this board.

Whether men fall behind in school is not the issue. The issue is the end result-they can usually still get a job that pays better than a woman DESPITE inferior performance in school. That's supposedly what education buys-the ability to earn a decent living and advancement in a career. What is not taken into account is that once you use this education in the workforce, certain ingrained and accepted practices come into play. Men are still viewed as the sole breadwinner and often receive a higher salary for comparable work. And men usually run the companies (you can count high-profile woman and minority CEOs on one hand).

The end result of a better education is not equal access to the same earning power as men. Until there is an 'old girls' network' and more women in the upper echelons of business, this access will always be the privilege of men.

[Blue_Chill]

67. That's crap

Men get paid more for the same job. They do not get offered better jobs without a degree. You will see the results of our current anti-male education system years from now.

[Nikia]

68. School has become a girlie thing

For some reason masculine culture does not want to do anything that girls excel at. Think of all the professions that used to be male dominated and then became female dominated. Men didn't want to become secretaries or nurses once large numbers of women did them. Since girls now do well at school, many boys don't want any part of it. They'd rather play football or wrestle which at most schools, girls cannot do. Boys who excel are stigmatized by their class mates. They know that once they graduate that it is not necessary to waste time and money on college because they can be paid well at a manly profession like construction. I know this is a generalization, but this does play a part in boys failing at school.

[Blue_Chill]

69. That is so shallow

You blame men for the results of feminism in schools. Pathetic

[Nikia]

70. Do you deny that this is a problem?

Not too long ago, in my patriarchal part of the world, girls that did well at school were told that no boy would want to date them. Girls weren't called on in class. It wasn't feminine to be too smart. My mother-in-law has a problem with me because of this too.
My little brother, who is in seventh grade, does well in school. Even though he is a good athlete and doesn't look nerdy at all, other boys pick on him and try to fight with him because of this. He is told by them that reading books is girle.
This is antedotal but I have heard other people from various parts of the country say that it is happening there too. This is cultural. Perhaps, strong male role models do need to visit schools and tell them that it is cool to do well at school or something like that. It worked better for girls because there is a reason to excel at school: You can get a good job with a college diploma. Without one, you'll be stuck just making above minimum wage. For boys, many male dominated jobs not requiring a college diploma still pay well. Jobs at the same factory that require more lifting pay a few dollars an hour more and go to men.
If you deny the first part, you cannot deny the second part. I believe that high school only educated men still make more money per year than college educated women.

[Blue_Chill]

81. I call bullshit

I believe that high school only educated men still make more money per year than college educated women.

Highschool education does not grant one access to the same jobs as college education. If you do work at a job where a highschool education is sufficient while having a college diploma then you are underachieving. You may be paid less, but then again you shouldn't even be there, you should be earning far more elsewhere.

[veganwitch]

75. and you blame feminism for the results of men in schools

without anything really to back up your argument.


please look and the references i gave you. its not women doing these things to men, its society (which is still very male dominated) doing these things to men. lets look at the assmonkey we have in the office. repuglicans complained to high heaven about what a bad influence clinton was to the children with his affair. well now we have an c-average (which, i know in my house was equivalent to bring home an F) student that had everyone cover his ass from any failure. wonder what kind of effect that will have children. the fact is, as stated before, that young boys are not socialised that being good in school is a good thing. its much more important to be good in sports, know how to throw a good punch etc. this is especially the case for black youth where the major role models are in sports or the rap industry.


and you STILL have not anwsered my question from my previous post.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

71. The old boy network-how do you think men get into positions w/o a degree?

You deny it exists? It is rampant in business. Our pResident is a good example of this kind of nepotism.

Anti-male education system? Try being a woman in business school. Or in the sciences. Or math. Please-things haven't gotten to the point of the educational system being anti-male. Do you ever think that maybe macho fathers have something to do with the emphasis on sports and not studying?

Do you deny the reality of the modern business world, or are you just on some kind of crusade against women? I think it's the latter, judging by your earlier posts.

I'm off to do my wifely duty and prepare a nice dinner, so I won't see your answer-if any-until the morning.

[Blue_Chill]

85. Look at grad rates for men and compare it to womens

Then tell me that women are suffering in male dominated colleges. Please. Men are failing at alarming rates and the female favoring learning models are to blame.

[spooky3]

97. Do you have data to support that?

See the Business Week article as a starting point. Then get into the research literature if you want to be knowledgeable and persuasive.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

100. Data to support your assertions?

I have plenty of economic data to support that it's still a man's world in the business world, but you haven't presented one shred of evidence to support your claim.

What do you do for a living? Is it female-dominated?

[Blue_Chill]

84. Your first site is funny

It basically says men shouldn't behave like men, they should be more like women want them to be.

ahem....fuck that.

[veganwitch]

99. um no, oversimplification kinda.

totally missing the point. bingo.

i guess the real question is what is "behav like men." what is that? what characteristics are natural masculine behaviour, tendencies etc. what determines that? WHO determines that?

[Blue_Chill]

101. spin it all you want

But in reality all that site is about is why women are right to want men to be more like women. No thanks.

[Selwynn]

94. Let's take a quick poll

How many women here like maggrwaggr's post? :)

[Nlighten1]

38. Most excellent dude.

I agree 100%

[Blue_Chill]

40. I might have a serious problem with that.

Have you looked into anything that the feminist groups do that isn't in support of equal rights? Many believe that equal rights is the only goal of feminism but I disagree.

Like for example opposing all things that look into helping boys that are failing at a alarming rate in school. Learning models were changed to favor females back when the same problem was affecting them in schools. However now that the shoe is on the other foot, the former "equal rights" groups oppose any investigation much less action being taken.

How about the fact that NOW has convinced some University to impose sexual assualt policies that prohibit the accused from questioning the accusser in any way. It's almost a immediate assumption of guilt.

The major feminist groups in my eyes do many great and needed things. However I see a disturbing trend moving away from "equal rights" that I simply cannot support.

[quaker bill]

45. As a male, who has no problems with being one

I feel like I am more of a feminist appreciator.

Simply treating people the same regardless of gender is sufficient for me.

[spooky3]

72. Business Week had an interesting article

about elementary level differences in performance and why they occur, and how they affect later occupational consequences. Unfortunately, BW charges you to look at articles at their website, but if anyone is interested, maybe your your library has a copy:

Conlin, M. (2003, May 26). The new gender gap: From kindergarten to grad school, boys are becoming the second sex. Business Week, 74.

There is a vast body of (rigorous, refereed--not magazine) research literature on sex differences at all ages and workplaces issues. For those who think that women now have all the advantages from the early education system onward, it may be enlightening to read some of this literature. I can't pretend to know much of it, but I have read some, and while progress has been made, by NO means has equality been achieved.

[maggrwaggr]

78. what about short people? Turns out tall people make more $ than the short

Does that make society "shortist"?

Should short men wear really big high heels in order to be more like tall men?

How many women actually suffer from less pay for equal work simply because they're shorter than the men?

Because, fact is, women are by and large shorter than men.

[durutti]

73. I'm Pro-Feminist

I don't think one can truly be a feminist unless one is a woman.

[Deja Q]

74. No, but that avatar of yours is quite revealing!

:D

:evilgrin:

:bounce:

[FDRrocks]

83. Kinda...

I am a equality-ist. Women have it rough, but I think minorities and thier women have it worse.

I am a feminist moreso than my girlfriend, who sickens me sometimes with her views on women.

I basically think we need a civil rights movement for all repressed and oppressed people. We need a mutt-transgender MLK and we need to march.

[okieinpain]

86. yep, especially after seeing kill bill tonight, women can do any

thing.

[Selwynn]

89. I am a feminst male on four different levels

FIRST - I am a feminist insofar as the term has been associated with the struggle of woman for equality and against patriarchy. I strongly believe that the devaluation of the feminine in all forms and of women in general is a large part of the ills of the world.

SECOND - I am a feminist insofar as the term refers to philosophy/feminist theory. I deeply respect the work of feminist theory to debunk and provide healthy counter-critique the insufficient and tire concepts of "selfhood" left over from modernity and the enlightenment. The greatest contribution of which would be the rightful post-modern (and specifically post-existentialist) analysis that selfhood is distinctly relational in nature, and the the self is not a closed in autonomous reality, but rather a network of intertwining contextual relationships revolving a round a center of personality and qualified freedom.

THRID - I am a feminist insofar as the term refers to feminist theology. I deeply respect the work of woman like Rita Brock and Elizabeth Johnson and Rosemary Radford Ruther in tearing down the vestiges of patriarchy and matricide, critiquing the dogmas of classical theism, and aligning a theology of hope for the future with the outcry for social justice given first by liberation theologians of South America. Deconstructing the singularly male imagery of god as power, domination and jealousy and investigating alternative imagery of god as mother, sustainer and life giver allows people who entertain religious symbolism the metaphorical tools to describe a world brimming over with rich possibilities for beautiful relationships, healing of brokenness and the restoration of a right equalibrium betwen ourselves, others and the world in which we coexist.

FOURTH AND FINALLY - I am a feminist insofar as I am deeply aware of the feminine within myself, and I cherish it, rather than apologize for it. I am a man who recognizes the values the parts of my being and personality which are feminine in characteristic, and I welcome these parts openly. I deeply cherish and revere women on the whole and quite frankly prefer their company, insight and perspective to a great majority of men I meet, although I do allow that I must not run the risk of completely stereotyping gender roles. I do know that as much as I value my rationality, I deeply cherish my ability to feel. I cry when I'm sad, and laugh loud and long, and I love, oh I love with great ferocity, and its unfortunate that men in our society are so frequently taught that such tenderness and free expressio nof feeling is weakness.

Do I sound ashamed to you? :D

--Edit: oh yeah, and I look good in makeup too :evilgrin:

[onebigbadwulf]

90. What is a feminist?

A feminist supports equal rights between men and women meaning-

1.) draft for everyone
2.) paternity leave along with maternity leave (or none for either)
3.) no extra sick days for menstruation

[Selwynn]

91. Actually, there is no one definition of "feminst"

But it has as much to do with the intellectual tradition of Feminst Theory as it does the social movement for fair treatment. In terms of a social movement, I would personally say a feminst supports fair treatment, which may or may not be the same as identical treatment. At any rate your definition is too narrow, and I suspect you used it only as a covenient too for making whatever point you're making. Feminism in all its forms has as part of its totality the overriding concern with the insitutions and vestiges of patriarchy that repress women in a mirad of ways. It is not strictly a political movement, and again "equal fair treatment" is not the same thing as "identical rights." Are you for or against equally fair treatment of women? That's really the only question that's relevant.

[spooky3]

96. I'll take you seriously for a moment and respond

1) If we must have a draft, then I agree with you. No reason why men should be discriminated against.

2) Men do not bear the children, so any portion of the leave attributable to physical needs (e.g., time to recover from a caesarian) should not be offered to those who do not need it, whether it's men or it's women who have not borne children. Other than that, currently non-discrimination in leave is the law of the land. (Family & Medical Leave Act re: unpaid leave, Civil Rights Act and subsequent laws for discrimination in all types of leave). Men should then take full responsibility for child-rearing (currently not the case in most families, according to studies).

3) When we outlaw days off for prostate trouble or limit the number of days that men can take off for greater heart trouble at earlier ages than women, etc., then we can be fair in restricting leave for ailments women are more likely to encounter. Further, most sick leave policies specify a set number of days that a worker can take off (particularly with pay). As a result I don't know many people, women or men, who take off time every month for any reason. The slightly higher absenteeism rates of women have been found to result from child care responsibilities, e.g., taking some time off because Junior was sick and had to stay home from school (see #2 for the solution to that). So basically, we already have the system you advocate.

[veganwitch]

98. i know of no company that gives sick days..

for menstruation.

women who do take days off during their periods take it from their own sick days. (and when they do it is usually because of severe dysmennorhea.)

also, there was a survey i saw on line once that showed that the days taken off for hang-overs was either first or a close second to period related days off.


2) the family leave act covers males and females. and a man won a supreme court case because he took time off (via the Act) to take care of his wife while she was sick and lost his job, sued and won.

3) how about draft no one?