No Offense to Liberals - but I'm a Conservative Democrat

[guajira]

It's against my "religion" to vote to raise my own taxes! I want government to stop the waste, fraud and mismanagement before they get more tax dollars from me. I favor strong accountability!! (Orlando voters just voted down a sales tax increase.)

I believe that immigration should be legal and that corporations that hire illegals should be severely fined. I don't believe illegals save us money (taxpayers pay, corporations profit!) and if the jobs were made safer and had a living wage, Americans would do them.

I don't think national health care is a good idea. The government screws up everything - billions of dollars are ripped off from Medicare! However, companies should be required to offer affordable health care to employees, possibly with government incentives.

On the other hand, abortions (at least 1st term) should be legal and safe), government handouts to special interests stopped, tax laws simplified with loopholes closed, etc.

Democrats need to stop being the "tax and spend" party!!

[brainshrub]

1. You aren't A Democrat

and you conservative need to stop being the "cheap labor" party.

[Trahurn]

107. Don't sound like a democrat to me either

The "Tax and Spend" party is the mantra of the republicans. How interesting that you use it too. The Air Force has now had its multi billion dollar "air superiority" fighter deployed into service. The remarkable F-22 "Raptor". This fighter is supposed to be the best in the world yet the Air Force is contending its now obsolete. Don't label the democrats as the "tax and spend" party when its the republicans that have never seen a weapon system it didn't like.
I'm sorry I just think it's better investment to invest in the health and future of it's citenzenry and methods to avoid wars rather then to invest in fighting and winning them. There are never any winners in wars. Only loosers. History has borne that out.

[Blue_Chill]

112. Did you even read his/her post?

Because they stated a living wage and health insurance for all employees.

Try avoiding knee jerk reactions to the word "conservative" it's pretty pathetic.

[guajira]

116. Thank you Blue Chill, for your logical thinking!

I know that Dems are not the "tax and spend" party, but it appears right-wingers are spreading propaganda that liberals will cause another depression!!

We need to be better at letting Americans know who we really are!!

[mermaid]

154. Agree

You know, I'd like to see waste eliminated, too. And I don't like higher taxes, either.
And he makes some good points. If these jobs were made safer and paid a decent wage, Americans would do them. But it is not in the corporation's interest to do this...they see strictly in the short-term, and in the bottom line, and screw people...he said all that...so what's Repuke about saying those things?

What this guy is..and what I am...is what we call in Texas, a blue-dog democrat. Or, more accurately, what he is (I believe, from what I read) and what I am...is an old-school Democrat. and there's a lot of us who feel the Party is leaving us behind. And feel the Party is shooting itself in the foot in it's headlong rush to scoop up the fringes on the left, thanks to the Greens.

Thanks a lot, Nader, you jerk! We don't need an attacker on our left flank!

I really wish the Democrats would come a little back to where they used to be...and stop going to the fringes, because, IMHO, this is why we keep losing!! We lost our appeal to the middle, moderate swing vote...in order to get the fringes that might vote for us, or for Green. And ther's not enough of them to make up for what we lose in the swing vote.

To hell wit the fringe...let them vote Green. Stupid if they do. They sure as HELL aren't gonna vote Repuke! We need to go after the swing vote in the middle who might otherwise vote for our main competition...the Repukes...and quit looking to the fringes. The fringes are not going to make up for what we lose in the swing vote...and of the fringes don't support us, and vote Green instead, then they need to realize they are helping the Party most likely to be the least friendly to their cause...to get elected!

No, sorry, Greenies and extreme left fringe...you can't have everything you want! It's time for us t take our Party back...and get them swing votes...and get assholes like Bush OUT!!!

[MadHound]

191. Funny you feel that way Mermaid

Most Greens are dissatisfied Dems who feel like the party has left them behind in their headlong rush rightwards. Why do you feel that the party is pandering to the "left fringe"? It seems pretty obvious with folks like From and McAuliffe heading the party, with Clinton and Gore leading the party, hell with the current crop of candidates(with the exceptions of Kucinich, Sharpton, and Mosely-Braun) that the party has taken a righward turn the past decade. How much further right would you want the party to go before you feel that it isn't pandering to us lefties?

Perhaps it is because both of our party wings have been left behind in the DLC/Democratic Party's ever widening corporate money quest. Just a thought.

[wyldwolf]

2. No offense taken... I'm left of center...

...but not real far left.

You sound a bit libertarian in your leanings.

But don't let anyone tell you you're not a democrat. No one on DU sets that criteria.

[metisnation]

38. I am moderate

there are several people in the Democratic party that share your values.


:dem:

[bicentennial_baby]

3. You don't sound

like a Dem to me, but hey, what do I know? :crazy:

"Democrats need to stop being the "tax and spend" party"

That is a straight up right-wing line...what's up with that?

[guajira]

7. What I mean is that Dems need to get rid of that label

When someone or something get labelled, it sometimes takes radical action to get rid of that label. I think Democrats should let Americans know that we care about their hard-earned money and are willing to make government accountable before we ask for more!

B* claims he is cutting taxes, then state, county, city governments try to raise taxes. It's a shell game that we should be exposing!!

[knowledgeispower]

23. I'd also like to point out that you are just plain wrong

First of all, about this "accountability" stuff...what the hell does that mean? Its just a right-wing buzzword near as I can tell. If you mean that you want government to be efficiently run, "like a business" (although the likes of Enron and Worldcom tell us that isn't true either), then let me ask you this: what is the purpose of government? Is it not to provide for its citizens? And if this is the purpose, shouldn't government be concerned about getting things done right, and giving every person equal access? That is an inherently inefficient process, but it must be that way. Businesses don't give a damn about people, they are just about the bottom line. Government cannot do the same and still satisfy its obligations to the citizenry.

The second thing I am concerned about sort of stems from the same idea. You say you don't want national health care because the government is bad at running things like that. You seem to imply that it will cost a lot of money because there will be a lot of waste. That may very well be true, but I would point out that European countries that have national health care pay substantially less for their health care than do Americans under the private system. Why? Because insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies gauge people for every dime they can get, and when it comes to health care you just don't really have a choice but to let them do it. So even if there would be a lot of waste in a government run system, it would still be far cheaper in the long run, and EVERYONE would have access. What's not to like about that?

And finally, the Dems are no longer the "tax and spend" party. Clinton was all about changing that image and he did so successfully. But even if the Dems were still that party, I would take that long before I would take the Republican way of "spend and don't tax" because that is just reckless.

[guajira]

27. If you ever worked for government, you know why accountability is needed

I worked for government and saw plenty of waste, fraud and mismanagement on a daily basis.

My point about the "tax and spend" is that we need to convince Americans that it is not true - and that the Republicans really are the spenders - especially for special interests!

[knowledgeispower]

31. I have worked for government

And yeah, there was a lot of waste.

But you obviously didn't understand my post. The point is that government is inherently inefficient, and more importantly, THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. Government MUST be inefficient if it wants to serve all of its citizens in a just manner. Private companies do not have to worry about that and thus they don't have to have all the red tape that ensures that things are being done properly and fairly.

[1monster]

61. I worked for NIEHS once...

in a cancer research. I didn't see a lot of waste and mismanagement... I saw loads of hard work on a tight budget. Yes, there were times when the workload was very light (usually a very short time between one project coming to a close and a new one starting), but that was more than balanced by the overload of work most of the time.

I'm sure that there is lots of waste in various areas of government. The same is true in private business too.

The truth is that IF is the people working for government or private business don't feel any real connection to the bottom line, they are far less likely to be careful not to waste.

And the way to make people feel the connection is not "accountability." It is to make them feel that they are a part of something important, that what they do does count, and for them to understand how waste and not doing the job correctly affects them as individuals...

[indigo32]

142. Interestingly enough

I see plenty of all three in the private sector too...
no matter how many people they lay off for whatever reason. It's still there.

[SharonAnn]

151. If you'd ever worked for a corporation you'd know why accountability

is needed. I've worked for several corporations and saw plenty of waste, fraud and mismanagement on a daily basis. And, they paid the upper mangement obscene amounts of money, in no way related to the actual value they provided the company.

[speckledgator]

109. In the words of vernon johson I say *rebrub*!

[Touchdown]

46. Ummm, hate to burst this to you.

but sales taxes are a conservative construct. They are heavily regressive and you would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of actual liberals who advocate any of them.

If it was income or property tax, then you might have a point.

BTW: I'm a flaming liberal and I don't mind conservatives, Dems or Repubs. Arlen Specter is a conservative, Jim Jeffords is a conservative. Trent Lott, Tom DeLay, and Orin Hatch are REACTIONARIES. I hate those guys.

[Robb]

180. I call myself a "tax and spend Democrat"

...All the time. I use the term with a certain amount of irony, and a certain amount of reclaiming-the-words sort of pride. I like taxing and spending, because guess what, market forces have no conscience, and can't be counted on to serve the population.

I also call myself liberal, and a conservationist.

If the RW uses terms, we can't? Screw that. I'm not going to let them define my vocabulary.

[Solomon]

4. No offense but the "tax and spend" mantra

is bullshit. Conservatives have no problem with corporate welfare. The money spent on social programs is a drop in the bucket compared to money spent on corporate welfare.

The "less government" mantra of conservatives is bullshit. Republicans have done nothing but expand government more, it's just that when it's done for a benefit they like, they don't see it as expanding government.

All of it is bullshit bullshit bullshit. No offense. People come up with mantras memes and symbols so people won't think. "Tax and spend" is one of them.

[guajira]

10. You and I know that - but do Most Other Americans Know it???

The ditto-heads are winning the propaganda war. Yesterday a man saw me wearing my Clark buttons and told me the liberals were going to get us in another depression!!!

Sounds like pure Rush, Neil, Savage BULLSHIT!!!

[knowledgeispower]

25. So what would you have the Dems do?

Start pandering to the Rush, Neil, Savage group? You want the Democrats to beat the Republicans by being like them, and that is just plain silly. It gives no real alternative and thus nobody has a reason to even vote.

[ikojo]

5. Republicans are the ATTACK and SPEND

party. Notice that under Clinton there was SURPLUS and just after two years of shrubby, a politician who supports your philosophy, there is now a HUGE DEFICIT.

So, which party is the spending party?

The canard tax and spend is thrown at the Dems because the SOME Dems (by far not all) believe that government serves to rise all boats. In order to rise all boats and not just the yachts favored by the conservatives in this country, means there must be social spending. It is this type of spending opposed by conservatives of all stripes.

Most government spending is on the military and Pentagon. Why is it this type of spending is not condemned. But God forbid we help an American out of work! Oh that's tax and spend.

Is ATTACK and spend any more responsible use of our limited financial resources, especially when most of the money benefits bloated corporations?

FAR to the left of many here and PROUD of it!

[Armstead]

6. Republicans are the spend and spend party

The Bush administration is spending money like a drunken sailor on defense and foreign adventures while also reducing the national income (taxes).

Whatever the alternative to that is is preferable.

[Iverson]

8. liberals aren't offended by pluralism

And if conservatives admit of more than one way to look at the world, then I'll hope you'll not be offended by my placing the needs of people over corporations, and generally a belief that government can work to the benefit of its citizens.

[Bertha Venation]

9. honestly, is one worker worth more than the next?

"I don't believe illegals save us money (taxpayers pay, corporations profit!) and if the jobs were made safer and had a living wage, Americans would do them."

Many Americans do take those jobs. Not every janitress you meet has a green card or is "illegal," despite her skin color or skill w/ the English language.

That said, those who perform our menial tasks will never be paid a living wage as long as business owners think that one person's time is worth more or less money than another's. Who's to say my services as a legal secretary are more valuable than those of the man who dumps my recycle bin and vacuums under my desk every night? I have skills that person doesn't, and in our system I am paid more for my skills than he is for his. Fine. But that that workers like him aren't paid a living wage is a travesty.

I'm not making myself entirely clear. I'll revisit after more coffee. :hangover:

[jonoboy]

13. 'strong accountability '??

and were is then with corporate welfare ?

never has to be accounted for or paid back and the hand is out always for more and more..but let a single mother be caught buying a packet of cigarettes and all hell breaks loose.

[guajira]

I Agree - and I emailed O'Reilly about tax dollars to NPR

Oh Really was ranting on and on one night about a couple of million $$ going to NPR, claiming they had an agenda.

I promptly emailed him and informed him that each year we taxpayers pay approx $28,000,000.00 to Miami Cubans to operate Radio/TV Marti - which DEFINITELY has an agenda.

Haven't heard much from him on that subject lately.

BTW, I watch that idiot so that I can respond to his hate-mongering. We Dems need to speak out more!

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Radio Marti vs. NPR

Radio Marti has an agenda that U.S. foreign policy agrees with and it targets another nation. NPR targets Americans, so if it has an agenda, then that would be massively different.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Some workers' time IS worth more than others

A trained computer programmer's time is vastly more valuable than a janitor's. Virtually anyone can do a janitor's job. Few folks can do the programming needed to keep a major accounting system operating.

If you don't like the salary at a particular skill level, the secret is to learn better skills. But as long as those skills have little value, they will be paid accordingly.

[knowledgeispower]

29. I disagree

The point is that both skills are necessary to the function of society and the economy. Granted, to be a computer programmer does take more training and perhaps it should be compensated as such. But that doesn't mean that the guy who does all the shit you don't want to shouldn't be able to make a living wage doing it. Or is to be a janitor somehow subhuman to the point where general decency does not apply?

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Not subhuman, just easily replaced

Face it, we do have an economy where your skills are subject to bid by employers. If no one wants your services that much, then they are not that valued. If you guarantee such a position a certain level of salary, you are increasing the salary for all above it because they will go up by comparison.

Would our society be that much worse off without janitors? Maybe a little. More than likely, most people would learn to keep their own offices clean and somebody else in the office would empty the trash and such.

[knowledgeispower]

37. Perhaps I need to restate my point

A janitor performs task that are necessary for the operations of individual companies and the economy in general. Since the janitor is a necessary component of the company, which does that janitor not deserve to be paid enough money that he or she can live off of it?

I guess the disagreement here is a fundamental one. You seem to think workers are simply a means to an end whereas I see them as the very thing that allows for companies to operate at all. In my opinion, the company OWES the workers, and not vice-a-versa.

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Not necessarily

A janitor performs tasks that, while necessary, can easily done by anyone else in the company if the janitor is not doing them.

I view both sides as equal. The company is nothing without workers and workers can't earn squat without a company. Both sides can quit whenever they wish. That is fair. If the janitor doesn't like the conditions, he/she can train to learn a new job or work to unionize to negotiate a better contract.

But workers aren't OWED anything other than what they earn.

[knowledgeispower]

50. Oh really?

You have a pretty naive view of what it means to be the working poor, in my opinion.

If you are working as a janitor, and don't get paid shit because people like you don't think janitors deserve to, where are you going to come up with the money to "learn more skills"? How are going to continue to work full time (or more) just so you can eat but at the same time get an adequate education? And if you have a family, how are you going to feed your kids? Who is going to watch those kids while you are either at work or at school all of the time? Remember, you don't have money to pay for child care because you don't deserve to earn a living wage.

And as far as unionization, what do you do when the company threatens to fire you and your co-workers for attempting to unionize? Do you risk your livelihood, knowing full well that nobody with any real power stands behind you against the corporations? Or do you just shuttup and continue to work under the same miserable conditions for fear of losing the little that you have?

But getting make to the fundamentals: these are PEOPLE we are talking aobut here, with real lives and real needs. You seem to think that they are merely apparatuses of the company they work for and can be disposed of as such. The funny thing is you are probably precariously close to being in the same position of the hypothetical janitor, you just don't realize it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. Not hardly my friend. Been there, done my share of that.

I've been part of the working poor. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Everyone I know in the working poor category falls into two categories. Those who work like hell to get out and those who don't. Those who work like hell take on two jobs, study on the side or work hard to move up in their professions. They drive cabs in their spare time and read or study when they aren't on calls. They work double shifts, etc. In short, they work their asses off. That is how you dig yourself out.

As for child care, typically you live in a house with lots of your family. If you have parents or grandparents, they might live with you. It can be crowded as hell, but you make it work. Everybody chips in, even the kids.

As long as the union movement has been around, unethical employers have tried to squealch it. If an employer threatens you for doing LEGAL activity, you appeal to the union, the government and the press.

And sorry, but if you are a janitor, you can find another similar job fairly easily.

I HAVE been in the position of the hypothetical janitor. I do realize it. I worked my ass off to get out of that position. But I could still be fired tomorrow. I could also quit tomorrow. As long as it is the best interests of my firm to have me work there, they have to make me happy. Just as I have to make them happy.

[Classical_Liberal]

65. If you are computer programmer you are in for a hard reckoning

very soon. Hope they don't ask you to train your indian replacement.

[knowledgeispower]

69. Not to worry, he'll just train for the next thing

Like, uh....oh shit, there really isn't one, is there? I suppose when your country is hemmoraging jobs it can't be that easy to just "pick yourselves up by your bootstraps."

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. Nope

But know folks who are. They are all working to get their security classifications in order.

[Classical_Liberal]

74. Well you run in rather limited circles because thousands of jobs

are currently being lost in that sector.

[Muddleoftheroad]

76. Yes they are

Which is why folks are working on getting security work. Because that is hard to outsource to another nation.

[Classical_Liberal]

84. That explains alot of things. Why you are such a war hawk particularly

You are making work for yourself getting jobs at the government largess. The more wars america makes with the rest of the world the more work you get in protecting the country from those pissed off because we are running theirs. Nice deal.

[knowledgeispower]

87. Well at least he will be on the right side of the line...

...when we finally become an unabashed full fledged Security State. While the rest of us are being beaten and oppressed, MuddleoftheRoad will enjoy a relatively good lifestyle because he had the forethought to plan ahead and position himself accordingly.

Kind of like the Nazi SS during Hitler's Germany.

Of course, we could work together to try and avoid that fate in the first place, but that would require sacrificing just a wee bit of our own self interest. And that just isn't the American way.

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. Like I said

I am not in IT. I have friends who are seeking to both protect and enhance their jobs with high security work. So what?

[Classical_Liberal]

99. I consider the military industrial complex to be more wasteful

and ruinious for this country than helping to better the lives of the poor. I think that industry is making enemies for this country on purpose.

[knowledgeispower]

66. So you still believe in "the American Dream"?

Despite all evidence to the contrary? Upward mobility is pretty much a lie. Downward mobility is much more common, which logically follows from our situation of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. That concerns me, but you don't seem to have a problem with it.

But lets take your situation as an example, even though I assure you it is the exception rather than the norm. You say you managed to get yourself out the working poor through hard work and determination. Good for you. Now when you look down the ladder behind you and see those people you used to be amongst struggling to survive, do you feel compassion (having been in their situation) or contempt (having "bettered yourself")? Every post of yours indicates the latter, and therein lies our fundamental difference. How sad that you must stand on the backs of others to lift yourself up.

On edit: fixed spelling error

[Classical_Liberal]

68. Almost all conservatives are people who need people to look down on

in my experience. Just aside from that I don't by this anonymous testamoney on the net.

[knowledgeispower]

73. I don't buy it either

But my point was that even if it is true, one ought to realize that people in the situation they left behind are no worse than themselves. MuddleoftheRoad seems to think he has something special though that other working poor lack, something that allows him to leave the others behind. I wonder what that something special is?

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Not just me

Tons of people dig themselves out of poverty by working hard. I am far from something special in that regard and I don't claim I did it on my own. My family has done this together. We've all worked hard.

THAT is the way out. There are no shortcuts in life.

[knowledgeispower]

83. You are dodging my question

Assuming your story is legit (which, sorry, I just don't believe because your rhetoric smacks of someone who doesn't realize how privileged they have been), I realize that you are not the ONLY person to rise out of poverty. But my question is: how come others cannot?

I believe that it is due to barriers they face, whether it is that of institutional discrimination, lack of quality education, family trouble, and so forth. I would also point out that in your view of the world, where workers are nothing but a commodity to be bought and sold as everything else, there will ALWAYS be those people at the bottom. But do they deserve to be there? Or do they deserve to at least make enough money that they can afford the basics like housing and health care?

[Muddleoftheroad]

94. Priviliged?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Try living in Southeast D.C. sometime friend. Come on down to MY old neighborhood. We'll teach you about privilige. Yep, we were priviliged to live in the capital of the U.S. and have armed gangs run our neighborhood. Wow, thanks for THAT privilige.

I don't think people who can work hard and won't deserve anything extra. If they can't find work (I love the CCC idea by the way), that is a different problem. If they can and only work eight hours and don't try to find extra work, then that is their choice.

[Classical_Liberal]

101. Ok are you saying you grew up in a poor black area of DC

because given that your main preoccupation on this board is maintaining israel as a safe haven for the Jewish people I find this hard to believe.

[Muddleoftheroad]

155. Israel is the homeland for the Jewish people

As an African-American, I owe many of my rights and freedoms to the Jewish people in this country who stood shoulder to shoulder with the Civil Rights movement. My mom taught me this at a young age. She also taught me to never turn my back on my friends.

[RapidCreek]

174. Are you from Africa? I thought you said you were from DC

I have a buddy who's a naturalized Nigerian....he tells me he is an African American....and guys like you are not. He finds the PC practice of referring to Black Americans as African quite irritating....and I understand why. It marginalizes those who actually are African American. I have a Caucasian buddy who was born and raised in Zimbabewe....is he an African American, in your eyes?

The US, Europe and Russia are the homelands of over 80% of the Jewish people who now live in Israel. Israel is no more their homeland than Africa is yours.

RC

[Muddleoftheroad]

181. Too bad for your buddy

He can call himself whatever he wants. We call ourselves African-Americans because our ancestors were dragged from Africa.

I won't take the bait and screw up the thread to pursue your anti-Israel comments. If you wish, start an I/P thread and I will join you.

[RapidCreek]

186. He calls himself what he IS

You however, do not. Your ancestor who was dragged from Africa was an African American....you are not. What did I say that was anti-Israel? I simply stated an incontrovertible fact. Your inability to respond with anything more than an a baseless ad-homonym attack does nothing to change that fact.

Since you bring up your ancestors....who it would seem, you are suggesting were slaves, I'll pose this series of questions. Were they slaves because they didn't work hard? Were they payed nothing aside from room and board because they were easily replaced? Were the Conservative, Southern executives, who retained your relatives services, as able to do the same work your relatives did, at the same volume it was done? Did these Conservative Southern executives avoid such self imposed drudgery via a superior work ethic and intellect? Did your relatives like their jobs? If not, what prevented them from working hard enough to get into a position where they might be able to do something else? Did your relatives receive any help to escape their self imposed drudgery? If so, why did they require this help and what exactly did it entail?

I look forward to your reply, my brother.

RC

[Muddleoftheroad]

187. Not your brother

I am a descendent of people from Africa. In America, if your ancestors are from a place, you take on a similar notation. German-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans, etc. For those of us who have ancestors from Africa, we are African-Americans. Your friend is probably best described, assuming he has passed the citizenship test, as either an American or an American African.

As for Israel, like I said, I'll be happy to NOT take this topic down a different path and meet you in the I/P area.

My ancestors, some of whom were slaves, were enslaved. The rest of your attempt at humor and sarcasm is meaningless as a result.

[RapidCreek]

193. No, you are certainly not my brother.

Was referring to you as "my brother" sarcastic? Yep, it surely was but that is all the sarcasm contained in my response to your post. Further, I made NO attempt at humor. Addressing you're equivocation is hardly inspirational, in that regard. On the contrary, I'm deadly serious.

In America, "if your ancestors are from a place, you take on a similar notation", you say? This assertion is ludicrous. Suppose your mother and fathers great, great grand parents moved here from Haiti. What would you be then? Are you still an African American, or are you a Haitian American? Taken to it's end, every human being on the planet is of African decent. Keeping this in mind, aren't we all, in this country, African Americans? That is the point, you see, you are of African decent....you are not an African American by virtue of your skin tone. My nationalized, Caucasian Zimbabwean friend is an African American....he's more of an African American than you. He was born and raised in Africa, as were his parents...you were not...niether were your parents. You are an American, plain and simple, same as me....get over it.

Your words belay a strong belief in divisibility....not a terribly American quality. That "One Nation Under God, indivisible, with..." stuff, doesn't apply to special people like you, eh? Self segragation....it's a beautiful thing, not.

You remarked that your ancestors were slaves. So what's your point? That fact hardly invalidates the questions I asked, does it? If so, please elaborate as to why you believe this to be the case. That, or answer the questions I posed, unless of course you lack the ability. That is how one debates an issue logically. I should think a man that has worked as hard and been as successful as you, would be up to the challenge.

As for Israel, you tied it into your argument, I did not...I stated nothing more than a solid, quantifiable fact. Your inability or unwillingness to respond with anything other than an retreating, ad-homonym shot, makes quite clear, the futility of further discussion on the matter, regardless of where that discussion might occur.

[Classical_Liberal]

81. I take peoples word on this with a grain of salt if I can't verify it

I do believe in the American Dream, but it was dream that was realized largely through the efforts of the labor movement and the public education system. Janators and assembly line workers may not have many complicated skills but it was only when they were paid well that their children could afford to go to college and get them. If you expect everyone to work like a whipped slave few will accomplish upper middle class status, very few will. Welfare mothers generally end up neglecting their children if they do, so it is a double bind, because those kids won't have the personal disapline and mental stability to improve themselves.

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. Dream?

Sorry, my life is a lot better than it was 10, 15 or 20 years. How? By hard ass work.

So yes, I still believe in THAT dream. Will I ever be rich or marry Halle Berry? I dream, but I'm not nuts.

I feel compassion and help those I can, especially my family. We've gotten most of them out of D.C., still working on the rest.

[knowledgeispower]

78. So people whose lives aren't better: why?

You bettered yourself through sheer hard work. So people that are still amongst the working poor must just be lazy, right? Surely it isn't some other situation (institutional discrimination, family life, language barrier, etc.) keeping them down. Its just that they don't have what it takes, and as such you are ready to just cut them off and watch them drown. Nice.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Your word, not mine

It is hard as hell to dig yourself out. It takes commitment, cooperation and pretty much no life.

I'm not cutting anyone off. I'm just saying I haven't met anyone yet who really worked at getting out who didn't manage it.

[knowledgeispower]

85. Wow

I know people who struggle every damn day just to survive. And I DO live a life of privilege (but, unlike yourself, will admit to it), so its not like I even associate with a lot of the working poor (because most everyone you associate with is in your same economic class). I guess I must know all the exceptions to the rule. Statistically unlikely, but I'll grant you it is POSSIBLE.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ardee]

140. best wishes to your family

your story is heartbreaking and all too common here in the workers paradise that muddle speaks of...with little relevence.

[Selwynn]

149. Thank you

I know my post was harsh and angry, but the kind of ignorant attitude that was expresed there makes me livid and furious, especially as I watch my family suffer and can only do a tiny ammount to help.

[Muddleoftheroad]

157. Paradise

Not damn hardly. I don't call a ton of people living in one household paradise. I don't call everybody saving every penny they have just so they can move out of a shithole neighborhood to be paradise. I'm just saying it can be done. And, in case you haven't been reading, we still don't have my whole family out of that crap yet.

[Selwynn]

102. So where are you Muddleoftheroad - come tell me its my father's fault

Please.. I'd like to be here while you read my post above and tell me that yes, since my fauther hasn't "made" it, it must be his fault and he just hasn't worked hard enough... come on. Where are you?

Because you know you've never met anyone who worked hard that hasn't made it.

You know something else, it makes me sick that you think its an ok position to say, "hey if someone works three jobs and studies on the weekends, and kills himself working desparately, is never around for his family, then he or she can "make it."

Don't you think that part of what makes the Democratic party so good is that we say, "we believe it should be just a little bit easier for people to "make it." Just a little bit.

I know my father would greatly, greatly appreciate it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

160. Did you actually read my posts

I didn't make it on my own and some of my family still hasn't made it out. But WE made it together and most of us are out of there.

And no, I have NOT met anyone who hasn't worked at it and not made it out. So? Is that my fault that I haven't? (Yes, the family members I have who are still there don't seem to mind as much.)

Too bad if it makes you "sick that you think its an ok position to say, "hey if someone works three jobs and studies on the weekends, and kills himself working desparately, is never around for his family, then he or she can "make it." Life is not easy. Can we make it easier for some people? Yes. But it still will never be easy for everyone. Life is a day-to-day struggle.

As for timing, sorry, but it's Sunday and I have other things to do as well.

[Selwynn]

171. Tell that to my father.

The deleted post above said that my father declared bankruptcy, after working hard his whole life, he lost his house, lost his stuff, and lives with my sick mom and grandmother. At 56, he's had two strokes, two bouts with bells palsey, a heart attack, and right now he's working to make ends meat doing manual labor, becuase he can't go back to school and learn better skills as he has a learning disability and there aren't many opportunities for a 56 year old. My mom cannot work because of her illness, and right now they are struggling to take care of my aunt who is dying of cancer, and don't expect she will live past the end of this year, all the while going into debt.

And despite all I can try to do to help with the money I make, my parents aren't "making it." The old cliche addege that you are throwing around that "if people just work hard they can make it" was not true for my father, or my mother. Are you suggesting that they are bad people? Are you in your smug self-righteousness going to suggest that they really didn't work hard enough? You said you have NOT met anyone who has worked at it and not made it out. You asked if it was your fault that you haven't.

IT IS YOUR FAULT WHEN YOU POST OPINIONS THAT THE POOR ARE POOR BECAUSE THE JUST DONT WORK HARD ENOUGH. Yes. That is your fault. The story of my father is not uncommon. Every day people are working their asses off and failing to "make it." And you know what else? Every day people die having worked their asses off their whole life and still failing to make it. People are poor or in need because its always THEIR fault and it takes every once of my restraint to not explode in rage.

There is nothing more disgusting in human beings that the capacity to blame others for their misfortune. Yes you're right, some times people need to work harder. But think about how heartless and disgusting your attitude is to real flesh and blood human beings like my father who ARE working as hard as they can and at 56 is not "making it." Don't say "he will someday" - he's fucking 56.

I wish with every bone in my body that you could come look my father in the eye while he did humiliating work after having two strokes just so he can barely try to scrape something together and then tell him that the reason he's not making it is because he isn't really trying hard enough. You're a... I dont know what you are, but you've really shown the ultimate example of pretty much everything that's wrong with society today.

Tell you what, from now on, when you think of the nameless faceless "poor" instead imagining in your mind lazy deadeat camped out in from of the TV, collecting a wellfare check and trying to avoid working, I want you to think of my father - burn his story into your mind and grow some compassion. Learn to accept the truth that his story is not uncommon, and if anything, the story of the deadbeat is the greater myth, the story of my father is a far more pervasive reality.

Remember my father, the next time you cope a cool, cold, dismissive attitude about the less fortunate in America.

[Muddleoftheroad]

182. Clearly you did not

As I said, people who CAN work. People who can't are supposed to be cared for by their families and society. This is also why I have made several comments in support of the CCC for training or employment. But you seem to ignore that.

You are attacking me because you are using an example that doesn't even refer to what I said.

Contrary to your endless rant, I am not blaming your father. I made a very specific point. I knew a lot of people in Southeast. Those who hated it enough killed themselves to get out before the neighborhood did it to them. Sorry, but that's just the way it was.

And no, these are not nameless faceless people. These are people I lived with, worked with, was friends with and in many cases still am.

[Selwynn]

188. According to society - he can work.

There are many who society calls "able to work" such as my father who cannot "make it" by hard work.

The bottome line is you have the absolute wrong attitude towards people in need. Whether you like it or not, your attitude basically says that its poor peoples fault for being poor. If they're poor then in the majority of cases it must be because they are lazy, or selfish, or haven't worked hard enough. It doesn't matter if you've had some limited experience with people who've worked hard and broken free - we all have, and god bless 'em, I'm very happy for them. But society should help, society to should take an attitude of compassion towards the poor and aid, not an attitude that says, "well your problems are your problems and maybe if you worked a little harder, you wouldn't be in the place you're in now - if you are then its your fault." No, its often not at all their fault.

If some people can escape the clutches of abject poverty and acheive a decent life, god bless them. But it should be easier. The chasm between the desparately poor and the ridiculously rich should be more narrow. The statisticall chance of "making it" should be greater, and contrary to your demonstratably narrow point of view, the statistics of people "making it" out of abject poverty across the united states are not encouraging at all. You're lucky to live withing a sheltered microchasm wherein apparently everyone who worked hard can make it. That is not the rule, it is the exception to the rule. Society should be about making the road from poor to humane as easy as possible. Will there be some people who take advantage of the system? Yes there will be. That is the price we should pay so that we don't develop cold dismissive jackass attitudes that poo-poo and patronize and insult people busting their ass to make it by telling them that is "their fault" they are not.

The biggest bold-faced lie in American today is that if you work hard you are guaruneed a decent life. That is simply untrue. And the people who still throw around that sentiment (as you are doing) are either desparately ignorant or deliberately heartless towards the real plight of many fellow American brothers and sisters. As Democrats, we should be able addressing the problems of society that create the disparity between hard work and a decent life, and we should make the road out of abject poverty more humane - lending a helping hand to those that need it. I've read every post you've written, and that is not the sentiment you've expressed.

You've expressed a dismissive attitude, that blames the poor for their problems across the board, and smugly suggests that if people like my father would just work a little hard, they could "make it." But oh wait, you say you weren't talking about my father. Well yes you were, for in the namless faceless masses of the poor and destitute in this country, my fathers story is repeated over and over and over again. And when you say "they" should work a little harder and "they" can make it, you have no idea what you are talking about. The "they" you refer to are made up of people like my father and mother. And until you believe that, and repent of your prejudicial attitude towards the poor, you'll never do anything good in this area.

[Ardee]

179. superior attitude much?

I would love to believe you, honest I would, but I just cannot believe that someone who has experienced first hand the crushing blow of poverty could display such callousness towards those still trapped within it.....no insult intended Im just a natural born sceptic.Oh and Ive a heart as well........see the wizard please.

[Muddleoftheroad]

183. Again

Not superior at all. You ought to try reading what I wrote not what you think I wrote.

[Classical_Liberal]

55. Computer programming jobs are done more cheaply in India now

too. That sector is shrinking faster than manufacturing. The computer programmers aren't worth shit either. Now what? See you can't ship a janators job out to asia because that has to be done live an in person. So Janators are worth more, because they can strike and the threat to send their jobs elsewhere won't work, unless you advocate strike breaking in which case you really don't belong in the Democrats.

[knowledgeispower]

58. Ha! Good point

At the end of one of my posts I remarked to MuddleoftheRoad that he was probably much closer to being in the same boat as the unwanted janitor than he realized. You just drove my point home with your post.

If only people could see that we are all in this together. But no, instead we must race to the bottom, clawing and clamboring over the have-nots in a desperate attempt to save ourselves from the same fate.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. Not all

Security jobs can't be outsourced very easily for instance.

Janitors can easily be replaced. Sorry, but it's true.

what the hell are you talking about strike breaking? I was the one who brought up unions.

[Classical_Liberal]

71. Janitors are in unions. Are you advocating hiring replacement workers

when they go on strike. Yes or no?

[ikojo]

105. MOST Janitors, at least here in St Louis, are NOT in unions

My nephew works as a janitor for a large insurance company and he is NOT in a union. He works 4 to Midnight and goes to school during the day. The reason he is able to do that is because at 24 years old he STILL LIVES AT HOME and PAYS NO RENT. That is a form of privilege. I remind him and and his sister of that as often as I can.
It is privilege that allows them to stay at home rent free and yet still have insurance because their mom works her tail off at an insurance company that offers benefits to "children" until they are 26!
So, while there is a possibility my nephew will do better than his part time roofer/construction worker father it is because his parents allow him to live at home RENT FREE. He would NOT be able to afford community college if he had to pay rent, electricity, gas and buy most of his own food.
That is called CLASS PRIVILEGE even if the family is barely middle class.

[Classical_Liberal]

113. This is true, and it is a benefit he might not have if you didn't have a

stable marriage.

[Muddleoftheroad]

162. Some are, many are not

No I'm not, why do you ask?

[knowledgeispower]

80. Oh security jobs

THAT is your answer. Brilliant. Well I am glad to know that one of the many people that will be oppressing me with the full sanction of my Police State is one of DU's very own. Could you just do me one favor, since we are fellow DU'ers? When I am out there protesting the WTO and you are busting my ass for it, don't beat me too hard. I'll just pretend like you are and then you can get on with your life.

[Classical_Liberal]

86. When I was in college I took a test to get a pinkerton job at 3M

I am absolutely positive no one left a John Bircher could pass the thing. I didn't even know anything about the history of the Pinkertons when I took it. After I took it I was convinced I didn't want the job even if they offered it.

[knowledgeispower]

89. Its nice to see a person with ideals they won't compromise...

...in the name of greed and self-interest. Too bad that is increasingly difficult to pull off in today's America. A government job seems to be just about the only thing one can do with a clear conscious anymore, but we have to eliminate those since they are "wasteful."

[rman]

172. but not a 1000 times more valuable

Nor 10,000 ~ 50,000 times more valuable, nor (looking at capital) millions or billions of times more valuable.

That kind of income differentiation is completely out proprotion. this differentiation has increased during the past 30 years of trickle-down economics.

I can't help thinking there must be some reasonable compromise to be found between pure communist equal pay, and pure capitalist winner-takes-all.
I'd say an income differentiation of a factor 10 would be plenty. Of course that would be relative a significantly higher minimum wage (ie double of what it is now).

[Silverhair]

147. Why some are paid more than others.

Some skills are more difficult to learn than others. (Why go to the effort of learning engineering if janitor pays the same?)

Some skills are more rare than others. (To become an airline pilot takes a higher level of intelligence than most people have. Sorry but that is a fact. Do you want just anybody flying the next plane you ride in?)

Some skills are more in demand than others. (Compare the demand for plumbers against the demand for a PhD in Midevial Russian Literature translated into Gaelic.)

Some skills are more productive at the same task than others. (A heavy equipment operator makes more than a guy with a shovel and wheelbarrow because the guy with the skills to run the machine moves more dirt than a hundred manual laborers.)

Some jobs have more hardship involved than others. (Long haul truck drivers have to be away from home weeks at a time and then are home only for 4 or 5 days.)

Some jobs are more dangerous than others, even after all the safety precautions are taken. (Firefighter)

These are facts. They are neither liberal or conservative. They can not be changed. To attempt to change them is to butt our heads into a granite cliff.

[SharonAnn]

152. And some have better "connections" than others, like *

Seriously, at the upper levels of corporations most of the people up there whom I've known, had great "connections" - many times privileged background, education, relatives, etc. Sometimes just "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" as far as ripping off the company/stockholders.

[Silverhair]

163. Yes, that is also true.

Not all reasons for differences in pay are just. Many are unjust. I was responding to the idea that she seemed to be presenting that everyone should always be paid the same, no matter what.

[Silverhair]

164. Also, there is lazyness vs. industriousness

I remember an incident from my youth when I was working my way through Grad school. I an another worker were carrying bars of steel and stacking them. We were both able bodied young men. On each trip I carried two bars, he carried one. I stacked twice as much steel as he did. Then he griped that I was being paid more per hour than he was. We had both been working there long enough for the boss to observe our work habits.

Would you maintain that I, who did more work, should get the same pay as the lazy guy? Let's get real. We all know some person who is just plain lazy.

[NicRic]

11. Both parties Tax and Spend !

The differance is who they tax and what they spend on .The repugs tax the middle class and the working poor, and spend $ on war & weapons ! The dems want a fair tax policy and want to spend on education ,health care, and rebuiding our infrastucture ! Now if we only had a fair media that showed the true colors of this White House that is being driven by giving billions to their corperate sponsors !

[Fla_Democrat]

12. Well, on Oct-16-03 at 09:31 PM

we were told.....
I'm locking this thread
DU isn't a discussion board for dialogue with conservatives. There exists thousands upon thousands of discussion boards on the web for that purpose. DU is a conservative-free zone.

Elad


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=541421#545220

Maybe if you changed the title of the post, it might escape that fate. :hi:

[guajira]

19. Wow - Sounds like you believe in censorship - I don't! Who's the conserva

Who's the conservative here? One who believes that all Democrats have to think alike, or one who believes government should be accountable??

That might be another problem with Democrats. We claim to be a party in inclusion - but are we?

[RetroLounge]

21. Who's the conservative here?

I don't know, but they always seem to be the first ones to scream about censorship.

[Fla_Democrat]

32. I just point out the reaction to conservative topics here

if you wish to debate the merits of the policy of the moderators, try....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=120

"We claim to be a party in inclusion - but are we?"
Uhm, no.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#welcome

"We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned."

I would guess as a party, maybe, as a private forum, guess not. :shrug:
Let's see. Hey ya'll, whatcha think of Senator Miller from Georgia???


Oh, just for grins, check the profiles of the people who professed a conservative bend in that locked thread. :think:

[Selwynn]

100. Yes, all democrats have to think alike...

...to an extent. Otherwise, they aren't democrats.

And censorship or not, those are the rules of the boards. Deal with it.

Party of "inclusion" has to do with race, sex and color, creed and sexual orientation. We are not "inclusive" of those who believe the opposite of what we believe. It certainly does not mean we welcome anyone who believes anything to call themselves a "democrat."

"Oh I'm a PNAC-Democrat! Don't criticize me, you're the party of inclusion, remember?" Give me a break. :)

[guajira]

108. You Made a Big Jump to "PNAC Democrat"

Fact is, I'm VP of my local Democrats Club, delegate to upcoming Dems State Convention, member of Clark Meet-up group, and spend a lot of time phoning and emailing Congresspersons and media-types. I've met both my senators (Sen. Nelson twice) and both times asked him personally to end Cuban travel ban against Americans and restore our freedom to travel!

I despise the current admin. and all they stand for! I will do everything in my power to not have another 4 years of the Usurper and his advisors.

I also think many Dems are unaware of how pervasive the right-wing media is, and how far we have to go to convince Americans we have a better alternative.

[Selwynn]

110. Whoa whoa, sorry .. not calling YOU that

Sorry... poorly worded.

I meant that there are examples of extremes where "inclusivity" is really not possible. A "PNAC" Democrat is a contradiction in terms in my opinion.

I was using that as an extreme example to illustrate why "inclusivity" has to do with non-discrimination, not being "inclusive" to all points of view. Some points of view are incompatible with the Democratic party.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. No offense taken

I think you will agree that the Bush Administration has done mighty harm to us and our children and grandchildren by running up these huge deficits. He might not be for increasing taxes, but he's far outdone any Democrat in the 'spend' department.

I agree that handouts to special interests should be stopped. Bush and his cronies are notorious for giving sweetheart deals to friends at Haliburton. That company won the right to reconstruct Iraq without competitive bidding. There was a report on NPR the other day that said the oil Haliburton is selling the US is overpriced.

Like you, I think immigration should be legal. The people who should be punished are people who hire illegals. My ancestors came over here and didn't have all the restrictions immigrants and would-be immigrants have today-why should it be different for Juan of Mexico than it was for Johann of Germany or Giles of England?

I think the sanest health care plan being offered by any of the Democratic candidates is Howard Dean's, as he offers incentives for businesses to provide health care for their workers. He also has a provision where individuals can opt out of having health care. As a person who uses holistic health care, I don't want to be part of any health care system that does not include the use of herbs, supplements, etc. I want to be part of a system where health, and not illness, is stressed. From what I've read of Dean's program, it delivers on this.

I know of a lot of Democrats who are anything but 'tax and spend'. I think this rather tired and tattered explative was used by the GOP for years to portray the Party and to paint all party members with the same brush. When you realize that Howard Dean has promised to recind the Bush tax cuts so as to pay for programs and to start to balance the budget, you get the idea this guy is anything but a 'tax and spender'.

Anyway, welcome to the boards. Thank you for your interesting post.

[ikojo]

15. Medicare is more private than public....

guajira says:
"I don't think national health care is a good idea. The government screws up everything - billions of dollars are ripped off from Medicare! However, companies should be required to offer affordable health care to employees, possibly with government incentives."

Medicare is FUNDED by the US government but ADMINISTERED by PRIVATE insurance companies (I know because I worked for the company that administred Medicare Part B in Missouri...Ross Perot's EDS systems made their money on Medicare contracts). If there is waste, fraud and abuse in the Medicare program it is due to CAPITALIST CORPORATE GREED and not because the government screws up everything.

I can come up with many more stories of how hospitals defraud Medicare (again PRIVATE entities) such as Tenet hospital being investigated for Medicare billing fraud. They also agreed to pay a huge (but not too huge of course) fine.

It is PRIVATE companies that defraud Medicare but yet people blame the government for "screwing up everything."

Case in point:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/moe/press%20releases/archived%20press%20releases/2002%20press%20releases/october/general_american2.html

TWO FORMER GENERAL AMERICAN LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY, INC. EMPLOYEES PLEAD GUILTY TO FALSIFYING AND CONCEALING GENERAL AMERICAN'S ERROR RATES FROM MEDICARE

St. Louis, Missouri: Two former employees of General American Life Insurance Company pled guilty this morning to charges of conspiring to falsify and conceal from federal auditors information about payment errors and other errors General American made as a Medicare contractor, United States Attorney Ray Gruender announced.

[cpa]

16. Conservative Views

I agree with everyone of your opinions except the one about health care. I think there ought to be a way of making health care available to everyone.
I have dedicated my career to reducing people's taxes. I am against all tax increase. If ther has to be a tax increase, I think it should not be borne by working Americans.
I don't find your views that extreme.

[salmonhorse]

17. I'm one click to the left/center of Clinton...

I do think that your take on healthcare is not thought all the way through. Much of that problem resides in the AMA, the hallowed halls of Lloyd's of London, and the certification process whereby hacks are allowed to continue to 'practice'. The American Federal Government has very little to do with as to whether you wake up with the wrong kidney, lung, arm, leg removed, or a sponge in your belly. That is just unacceptable bullshit that needs to be stopped! But then...we can't even certify a proper presidential election so it's all like, "Good Luck!!"

Still, I do have some good news for you; you won't have to worry for generations to come as to this notion: "Democrats need to stop being the "tax and spend" party..." because Bush and the Nixon-Bush-Cheney Admin (Republicans, I should probably add here) has just given away every last cent of your grandchildren's heritage so that corporations can out-source/off-shore eliminating your concerns as to whether fat-cats should be made to pay their fair share.

[ulysses]

18. hey, you be you.

However, companies should be required to offer affordable health care to employees, possibly with government incentives.

I thought the government screwed up everything. :evilgrin:

[knowledgeispower]

20. Why aren't you a Republican?

Just about every issue you argue for in your post, with the exception of abortion, seems to fall to the right of the political spectrum. Why are you a Democrat at all? I don't want to push people away from the party, but sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade.

[sangha]

39. "you just gotta call a spade a spade"??

But you can't call a Green a Green

[knowledgeispower]

43. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at

If you are implying that I am a Green but won't admit it, you are wrong. I am indeed a Green, and proud of it. However, I realize that with the political system we have the Greens can't become a viable party without giving a HUGE boost to the conservatives by splitting the left of center vote. So I hold out hope that the Democratic party might give a guy like me some reason to support them. The problem is that won't happen because they are too busy pandering to conservatives who just like to pretend like they have a heart.

[sangha]

63. I was confused. I apologize

I confused you with someone else.

[mermaid]

158. Greens

No, but you can call a Green a moron that is helping the Repukes get elected by forcing the Democratic Party to shoot itself in the foot!

Damn it!!

The Democratic Party needs to quit worrying about these Green morons...and concentrate on our REAL ENEMY...the Repukes! We need to appeal more to the swing voters and less to our fringe. They will vote for us or Green, anyway. They sure as HELL aren'tgonna vote Repuke!

We need to go after the voters who might vote for us...or vote Repuke...and get them to vote for US!! This is how to WIN! Going to the fringes...that's how to LOSE!

I hate to say it...bitter pill...but it's reality. In this day and age, it's reality. There are things I would like, too. For example, I am Transgender. BUT...if it takes ignoring my issues for now in order to beat the Repukes...then fine...I'm okay with that...because I know, in the end, at least the Dems. won't HURT me. The Repukes go out of their way to HURT us.

And so all effort must be undertaken to beat the crap outta the Repukes...and to do that, we need to quit worrying about the fringes...and worry more about the swing vote in the center. Sorry, guys, but that is just reality. I don't like it, either...I'm on those fringes. But I realize for our eventual greater good...or at least lesser harm...we need to sit down and shut up for a while...and support a more centrist Democrat who can get rid of BUSH.

BUSH is our number one enemy...and we all ought to be concentrating on the bes way to get rid of HIM....worry about the other shit later.

[Lilith Velkor]

166. so let me get this straight

The Greens forced the Democratic party to shoot itself in the foot? How?

Did they hold guns (and anthrax and terrible pilots) to the heads of all those congresscritters who have knuckled under to the Bush regime?

Do you really think the Dems won't hurt you in the interest of pandering to the swing voters? What the hell good is beating the Repukes if you have to join them to do it?

Dems gotta realize what time it is. It's time to be partisan, ruthless, and unashamedly LIBERAL. It is not time to completely alienate liberal voters. Should that happen, don't come crying to me if the Democratic party is forced to shoot itself in the other foot.

[mermaid]

167. So Let Me Get THIS Straight....

You'd rather lose 20 percent of the swing vote to gain 4% of the left Fringe that vote for the freaking Greens?
And this helps us win, HOW???

Oh...and yes...I do believe the Dems would not HURT me in the process of pandering to swing voters. To HURT me, they'd have to be pandering to the pricks on the right fringe who do want to hurt me.

They may not HELP me as much as I might like...in order to get the swing vote...but that's a trade-off I'm willing to accept. Better to just be ignored, and not helped...than to be actively hurt and targeted. Bush needs to GO...NOW!!!

And the Greens need to sit down, shut up...and unite behind us in the MAIN goal of getting Bush out!! After Bush goes...then go back to being the way you are...but right now...by making noise...you Greens are working at cross-purposes to your own selves...by allowing those LEAST friendly to your issues win...

YOU Greens need to be aware that you can't have everything yu want right now! What ever happened to incrementalism? Would you rather creep forward slowly...as you will if you vote Dem...or would you rather get set back 30 years...as we currently are under the Bushies that YOU HELPED ELECT!!

If you stupid Nader voters had supported Gore instead...we wouldn't be in this nightmare!!

[ulysses]

175. ...

And the Greens need to sit down, shut up

Ah, the smell of coalitions a-building.

Welcome to DU anyway...

[Ardee]

178. ahhh another conciliator appears

Lets see if I have this straight, you insult a group of folks and then demand that they join you? You are a willing participant, apparently, in the democratic party's desertion of what it has stood for for decades, in its complicity with the various Bush agendas, in its cowardice, in its desertion of the american people and you call that political expedience.

I am not yet a Green but I assure you that Im much closer to joinig that party than I am in rejoining the vichy democrats who must accept responsibility for their lack of opposition to the BFEE. Those on the left seem to me to be speaking their consciences, are saying that some things are NOT for sale, and are drawing a line in demanding that
their votes be earned not proferred with bowed head and wishful hoping that one or two of their agendas might be discussed, sometime, maybe........If they are "stupid Nader voters" then they did so with a far clearer conscience, more political astuteness and a bit more civility than you display. Tell me, are you a salesperson?

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. <sigh>

ya, ok. I can imagine Barbara and Jenna Bush in a field harvesting for a farmer because he pays a living wage. Please.

>>>>>>Democrats need to stop being the "tax and spend" party!! <<<<<<

I want the corporate welfare to stop! Making the rich richer and the poor poorer, makes NO sense. Trickle Down economics did not work for Reagan and it will not work for the shrub...open your eyes! Look at our economy, 3 million lost jobs, bankrupt states, schools are suffering and taxes are going up. It doesn't work.

>>>>>>companies should be required to offer affordable health care to employees, possibly with government incentives.<<<<<<

What about all of those 3 million people who don't have a damn job because of the shrub? What about the millions and millions of homeless people? Where does their healthcare come from?


A Rising Tide Raises ALL Boats.

[mermaid]

168. Rising Tide???

Yeah...a rising tide does raise all boats...but those without boats are left to cling to the freaking ROCKS when the tide rises!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

24. If you are generally supportive of conservative ideals

If you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

Quiz time: what's my source for the line above?

[Selwynn]

92. Nice.

:)

[speckledgator]

28. Oh yeah

I'm seeing the white boys lining up to pick fruit!

[Padraig18]

30. Labels

Most labels like 'conservative', 'progressive' and the like are useful only in context. Few of us here are mono-dimensional, and take various stances depending on what the given issue is. I am generally left-of-center (if you absolutely MUST label me), but favor balanced budgets, except under highly-unusual circumstances, like a depression, war or other catastrophic event. Does that make me a 'conservative' overall? Nah...

We need to go back to putting labels on cans...

[knowledgeispower]

35. favoring balanced budgets has become a liberal issue

Conservatives want to run up the deficit because then interest on the deficit goes up as well and thus there is less money available in the federal budget for things like social programs. It is just a scheme to starve the beast.

So now liberals must be the balanced budget party because paying down the deficit frees up money for spending that was previously only going towards paying interest on the debt.

Funny how things can change so dramatically but still be under the same labels.

[Padraig18]

45. Ain't it the truth? LOL! n/t

[CWebster]

33. Actually there seems to be an increase in "conservative" types

the swing voters--Reagan Democrats, who cling a little more to what they consider a mainstream view--formulated by the mainstream press---who are just starting to realize and react against the trend.

...and so hopefully, the pendulum swings.

[knowledgeispower]

40. I've been waiting for that pendulum to swing for 2 decades

and going on a third. It seems like you get one good decade (30's and 60's) followed by three or four super conservative decades.

[Uzybone]

36. No offense taken

you positions are (almost) all fine with me, and I consider myself well to the left of mainstream dems. But why are you using GOP labels to define your party?

Strong accountability: are you saying liberals are for govt waste?

Immigration: are you saying liberals are for illegal immigration?

Tax and spend party: even most GOPers dont dare call dems that anymore. Why do you?


whoops: on edit...I though you said you were for National healthcare...I see you are against it. I completely disagree with you there.

[Isome]

138. "GOPers dont dare call dems that anymore..."

Yeah, that was my first thought! The label is old and hasn't even been used by mainstream media pundits in awhile... to my knowledge.

[Ress1]

42. Business is just as inefficient as gov't.

If business were so efficient why is healthcare so expensive?

[knowledgeispower]

44. Well that depends on perspective

Business IS efficient for the guys at the top. Take your example of health care. Pharaceutical companies get profits of 15 to 20% of their investment, far and above what most companies get. So the CEO's that are making millions and the board members that are getting fat off of other people's blood, sweat, and tears probably think the system is pretty damn efficient.

Of course, if you are looking at it from the perspective of the working poor that have to choose between putting food on the table or taking their sick kid to the doctor...not so efficient.

[Ress1]

60. Inefficiency in business is a hidden cost (tax) passed on to the consumer.

Law suits brought on by bad business decisions, product recalls due to bad design, absenteeism, on the job deaths, crooked CEO's, injuries, just to name a few things that drive up costs which are ultimately passed on to the consumer. Business inefficiency is just as expensive on our pocketbooks as taxes.

[jonnyblitz]

47. It is no surprise to me you have a Clark avatar

after reading your post. He seems to be the candidate for Democrats who share your view.

[bicentennial_baby]

That's bullshit and you know it

Gimme a break, man...

[bicentennial_baby]

72. Dupe

Weird double post...

[Closer]

48. Why am i NOT surprised

you're a Clark supporter :eyes:

[LittleApple81]

51. This was not a candidate discussion thread as far as I know. n/t

[Ardee]

52. You are a Democrat

and it is folks like you, in control of the democratic party that forced me to change my registration to Independant.I find your post filled with right wing mythos, stuff that comes from republicans but now, with the swerving of the Democratic party in pursuit of the corporate dollar we see increasingly from vichy democrats......

Taxes are the obligation of the citizen, they come with the territory and should be far more equitable than they are. I agree that we should insist on less waste and mismanagement from our bureaucracy.

National health care seems easy enough in many countries world wide and to just dismiss the idea so out of hand reeks of lack of compassion for the many millions here in the US who have no access to such care.Those who selfishly deny the poor access to health care put themselves and their children in grave danger of many illnesses which may grow among those without health care and spread to others.

I wonder exactly how many industries employ illegals in large quantities, of course the agriculture of our nation depends upon cheap and transient workers. Good luck with those $5 tomatoes and $10 heads of lettuce though......I doubt that some Guatemalan dishwasher in a restaurant is having great impact upon our country.

[knowledgeispower]

54. Thank you for putting it so well

This is what I have been trying to get at. The party has swung right, leaving those of us on the left with no representation. What are we to do?

[Hippo_Tron]

127. His post is filled with right wing mythos...

But the democratic leadership is not run by moderates and conservatives, just a bunch of panzies.

[Ardee]

143. sadly no it is not

It is not cowardice that motivates the democratic leadership, though it certainly does a certain poster who constantly prattles about what the electorate will accept without having a clue as to who they are or what they want.

The leadership of the democratic party, as embodied in the DLC, is motivated by money, plain and simple. They have deserted the core values of the party, abandoned its most impassioned members as well as the american people in a greedy search for corporate funding of its war chest. Never mind that corporate america is not stupid enough to desert the GOP, especially when they continue to win elections and reward the CEO's so very well.

Never mind that there are millions of hard working ,honest americans with consciences who stand ready to rally to the words they never hear, ready to vote for those who wish to bring their children home from foreign soil, ready to support candidates who will help them with the soaring health care costs they face, with the failing education system, with the crumbling infrastructure.......never mind ,nothing to see here ,move along folks, after all a CEO might write a large check while some poor working stiff whose mom cant afford her prescriptions will only donate $10 or $20 bucks.

[sendero]

53. Uh....

... the "waste" "fraud" and "abuse" thing has been covered and pretty much discounted.

People who think that the reason there are taxes is because of "waste, fraud, and abuse" are pretty much people who want something for nothing.

The only serious "waste, fraud, and abuse" I can find is in the Pentagon.

[knowledgeispower]

57. Don't forget Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, and so forth

Oh but they don't count because they are private sector and the private sector can do no wrong.

[leesa]

56. Speaking as a health care worker, privatization and managed care

are very bad jokes! Like everything the greedy rich insurance companies and the pharmaceuticals are destroying our medical system. Contrary to popular Republican thought, government control usually SAVES money.

"Democrats need to stop being the "tax and spend" party!!"

Open your eyes will you?

It is the Republican party that gives huge handouts (welfare) to their rich buddies, including their military-industrial pals, then it is the Democrats who follow that are forced to repair the damage by raising taxes.

Why do you parrot the Republican propaganda??

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[guajira]

115. Leesa, no parrot here - Repukes are tax and spend, but Dems get the label

The point I was making is that Dems have to do better at getting our message out to America!!

We should be advocating a living wage, or at least a raise in the minimum wage. What about retirees who need to supplement social security, but are "too old" to get jobs?

Are Dems candidates and Congresspersons addressing these issues, along with affordable housing, jobs, etc.?

I believe these problems can be solved, and I believe we can pay for many social programs with $$ that is currently being spent on special interests, etc.

Didn't the Pentagon lose 3 trillion $$?? That would help a lot of people get a hand up.

[blondeatlast]

62. You MUST read Joe Canason's "Big Lies"

He exposes the truth about the phony "tax and spend" rhetoric of the right and how the media is influenced by the Rethugs.

[rman]

79. who's controlling the government - who's being fraudulent ?

would you vote for Bush if he'd promis to lower taxes again?

Who should see to it that corporate requirements regarding healthcare are being met? You don't trust the government, so do you want corporations to regulate themselves? they'll make it so that they have to do "volutary self-regulation".

If Rupubs+Corporations make a mess of healthcare, would you trust corporations by themselves to do any better?
There's one thing we know for sure about corporations: they are in it for the money.
Government is a mess but at least we can in principal hold the elected representativs of the people accountable.
but you can't really blame corporations for trying to make as much money as they can.
if you leave it to the corporations and they make a mess of it then you only have yourself to blame.

[Darth_Kitten]

88. Excuse me?

Republicans need to learn to spend other people's money more efficiently. ;)
Democrats are the REAL workers in society.

[Selwynn]

90. Welcome to the reason the party sucks - Republican-LITE takeover

The fact that a person with these positions can be called a "democrat" is a prime example of why we suck so much right now.

Of course government should be accontable, but you should also be ready and willing to help those less fortunate than you with your tax support. Sure fight to fix waste, fight for accountability, but don't use those words as the bullshit smokescreen of Rebulicans who would rather keep lining the pockets of rich fatass executives than take care of the poor and work to soften the hard lines of disparity between the very priveledged and the very destitute in this country.

There is no way around the plain and simple fact that reducing the gap between the desparately poor and the excessively rich will require the rich to pay more and the poor to pay less.

I make 45,000 a year - not busting with wealth by any means, and I would be willing to pay more taxes - its certainly not against my "religion" to help build a better and more equitable society, even if there is a waste along the way.

Immagration policies should have as their guiding principle a compassionate spirit. Certainly, there may be some things we can't do for illegal immagrints, but neither should we agree to laws that violate the bill of rights - those rights should be seens as affirmations of universal rights of man, not rights for white americans and not for anyone else. Laws in dealing with immagration need to be evenhanded and merciful, even if that means we sacrifice a little bit of what we have for the sake of being just.

National Health Care - one word: Canada.

People who call themselves conservative Democrats are like someone who says I'm a white black man. But of course today, that is what the party has become.

A better word for you is Republican-LITE - less filling, still tastes the same. But of course, you'll feel right at home with the Rubber stamp, Yes man, Republican-LITE Democratic party leadership of today.

So don't let my comments trouble you at all. I am not in the minority. I, an unapologitic progressive liberal and now the "outsider."

The two parties today now give us a choice between to options. The right or the far right, and that sickens me.

[Selwynn]

91. By the way: Republicans are the Tax and Spend party...

Tax the working class, and spend on corporate wellfare.

[eileen_d]

95. Welcome, and remember:

"IGNORE" is your friend!

[Selwynn]

98. The Free Republic is also your friend (nt)

[eileen_d]

106. I doubt FR welcomes conservative Democrats.

I'm not one either, but I don't mind hearing from one.

[Selwynn]

111. I don't mind hearing from a conservative - I mind "Democrat" being added

[Hippo_Tron]

125. Sure they do, just say you agree with every Zell Miller vote...

FR would give you quite the warm welcome.

[LittleApple81]

97. Totally off subject: what is the source of your user name?

Since I come from Latin America I was thinking:
There is a guajira in Colombia/Venezuela
There is Guajira Guantanamera.
Any other possible sources?

[guajira]

119. I'm a Gringa who loves Cuba!!

I abhor the embargo, travel ban, and hateful propanda that comes out of Miami. I abhor the millions and millions of US tax dollars going to batistianos in Miami so they can wage a private war of hatred.

I am a Progressive Democrat, as far from Repuke-lite as anyone can get.

BTW, guajira means country girl.

[JVS]

103. Why are you a Democrat?

If more conservative Democrats had been Republicans during the 2000 primaries, maybe we would have President McCain instead of Bush. The GOP needs a moderating influence.

[Deja Q]

104. Don't take this personally

Look at your buddy George W Bush, he's "tax cut and spend far more" insane maniac.

Define government waste instead of just labeling anything that isn't military or road spending. If you can't, then don't bother using the term.

And if government screws things up, open your eyes and look at what corporate america is doing. Bunch of greedy fascists they are.

And you are anything but a Democrat, your resort to stereotypes against Democrats proves that! "Tax and spend" is bull****. George HW Bush did a big-ass tax increase and spent a lot too.

Sheesh, Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II gave us this gigantic debt - um, who is doing the spending again? Give me a freakin' break. x(

Oh whatever. Think what you want and be sure to vote Republican, you're not even a "centrist"...

[guajira]

120. Here's an example of Pentagon Waste

snippets:
Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, says, "Pentagon credit cards are being taken on a shopping spree, and the taxpayers are footing the bill."

A sample of the stealing recently uncovered as a result of the mass issue of Pentagon credit cards:

* A Marine sergeant ran up a $20,000 bill on clothes and other personal goodies. He even made cash withdrawals totaling $8,500. Then he left the service, leaving Uncle Sam holding his overdrawn sea bag.
* An Army soldier blew $3,100 in a nightclub. A champagne-and-caviar night for the perp and pals on the taxpayers.
* A dead sailor somehow spent $3,565.
* A soldier's wife spent $13,053 during a shopping spree and a holiday in Puerto Rico.
* Other scams include a $13,000 Nordstorm designer briefcase, expensive computer monitors, Palm Pilots, cosmetics and gift certificates.

According to General Accounting Office investigators whom Grassley put on the case, none of these spenders bought bullets.

When I enlisted, it was "Join the Armed Services and See the World." Now it's "Join the Armed Services, Get a Government-Issued Credit Card and Get Out There and Spend Taxpayer Dollars."

And this says it all.........Grassley, an ever-vigilant watchdog of the public purse, is fit to be tied. He says one bank company alone wrote off $59 million in bad debts from military credit cards. "There were no effective internal controls in place," Grassley says. "Stealing money was a piece of cake. Fraudulent activity -- if detected -- was detected by chance and not as a result of (Pentagon) effective controls."

more...

http://www.hackworth.com/07aug01.html

This is the kind of crap Democrats should be exposing!! It's called "accountability".

[Deja Q]

144. Yes, I did read this. :-)

And, yes, Democrats DO need to spell out what wasteful spending is, especially when the right-wing military does most of the wasteful spending.

I do appreciate your response.

The above is the condensed version. The following is the hardcover extended edition:

I'm assuming the dead sailor spent $3,565 before he died but never got a chance to explain himself (though the right-wing military wouldn't bother to ask anything, unless it asked "Are you gay?")

And since all of these incidents are pointing to the military, which has historically been rather conservative, I have to wonder why the republicans don't point this stuff out... apart from omnipresent partisan loyalty, which basically allows them to shaft the rest of us whenever they feel like it.

Republicans use the term in some gaudy tasteless style and then cut lots of valuable social programs or outsource things (um, this is government, why are they outsourcing ANYTHING to entities which may or may not work in their best interests?) Of course, then they have a fit when crime goes up, which is the natural outcome of the poor being made poorer... Still, this paragraph is just rhetoric...

But I do agree, government spending should be done wisely. But that doesn't make me a "fiscal conservative" by any means. I know what the conservatives mean when they say "wasteful spending". They want all social programs exterminated and for people to survive in this society without any help. They may as well give everybody a free copy of "Final Exit (third edition)", though they'd only tell us where to buy it instead. Meanwhile, every time we have a conservative president, that national debt SKYROCKETS. The money we currently could have otherwise gone to a national healthcare system and any number of things. Conservatives have only been screwing over this country financially, and I'm amazed they have the nerve to call themselves the "fiscally responsible" party. I saw a republican booth at the Gay Pride festival in June and they were promoting themselves as being "fiscally responsible". I came close to having an argument with the pompous idiots, but I didn't. Personally, they shouldn't be there at all. Of course, they believe they're fiscally responsible, so they'll believe homosexuality is tolerated by those in power. :eyes:

[Blue_Chill]

114. Nice post

Too bad you are getting hit with knee jerk reactions becaues you said "conservative". Being that you support a living wage, are pro-choice, oppose special interest handouts, support mandatory health care I would say you are more of a moderate then a conservative.

[Terwilliger]

117. 'handouts to special interests'-could someone tell me just what that means

What constitutes a "special interest"? Minorities? Unions? addicted celebrities? what?

And, why are these monies and funds considered "handouts"? I mean...do you ALWAYS frame the debate with the language of the Republican party?

By the way, if you're a conservative Democrat, you support the policies that encourage corporations to go overseas for their workforce.

[guajira]

121. Special Interests means - hundreds of millions to Miami to get B* in offic

In fact - to get BOTH B*'s in office. They are using our tax dollars to buy votes and political campaign contributions.

Seems like our Democrat Congress would be screaming their heads off about this, but pandering is occurring on both sides!!

[Terwilliger]

128. pandering is rampant

but it's the "system" we're all supposed to love, right?

There are deceived people everywhere...the plague is not specific to groups or parties.

[salin]

118. problem with the 'tax' issue

is that we don't cut them, we have shifted them; and our economy is in a really precarious state - and if reshifting taxes is necessary to stabilize our long-term national economic health - we need to consider it.

On the first item - since W has come to office cutting taxes... He has shifted taxes to the states for mandated programs - while pursuing economic policies that have made some state economies (and thus budgets) more shakey... so more states are in debt, in part of growing financial obligations due to the federal tax cutting; So many state taxes have been increased in the form of increased sales taxes, increased fees etc. Meanwhile states are also cutting budgets, meaning more essential services at the local level (police, fire, safety, some education $s, etc.) are cut - requiring increased expenditures - to maintain (or in some cases - higher costs for reduced services) at the local level. (Property taxes, some local sales taxes, fees, etc.)

For many of us - we have seen a net tax increase in this era of bush tax cuts - when looking across ALL of one's tax payments. The blind folly of equating all taxes at the federal level as equal and all as evil - often cost people much more in the long run.

To the second point, there are more and more cases where "privatized" services have been found to be more expensive and less efficient than the government sponsored services that they replaced. There are numerous examples from one of those leading privatization states, Florida, where the costs increased - the services not only were worse, but requried state agencies to repeat the services and clean up the problems (Department of Child Services most notable). We have to stop buying the blind adherence to: All government is waste and All business is efficient. The truth lies somewhere inbetween, and should always be considered on a case by case basis - backed up in evidence.

Back to florida, in the extreme, the state pension fund's investments are managed by a private investment firm (the one that kept buying Enron AFTER it had tanked), recently it agreed to buy Edison to make it Private - after 11 funds refused - why - in all of its years Edison has shown only 1 quarter of profit. When called on it Jeb, as one of a panel of three that provides oversight over this contract, that he did not feel it was his job to review the investment firms work. Get it? For the true believers (or true grifters in some cases) - Govt always inefficient; business always better - there is the belief that NO oversight is required - even when contracts use public dollars. That is foolish.

I want an administration that understand this. That does not shirk from analysis of the most cost-effective means of providing services that are demanded (that is, desired) by the public. In some cases that will be private contracts, in others it will mean government agencies. In both tight oversight and accountability needs to be used, so that performance is seen - and the decision of how those services are carried out (eg who carries them out, public or private) is reviewed and reconsidered as needed.

As to health care? The public, in a series of polls, has indicated a great desire to see some kind of health policy that addresses the high costs and high number of uninsured. Thus all candidates are going to have to eventually deal with this issue - whether you, or other conservatives of either party like it or not. Again - if the will of the people is to collect taxes and pay for particular services - then that is the will of the people (we can opt out). The trick, as I described above, is to consider multiple means of doing so - and find the most efficient, make it transparent and NOT in cement (that is - if the system selected - public, private, public/private blend - isn't working it must be revisited and revised.)

btw, on this topic, I expect that in the next five years we will see more and more employers jump on the bandwagon of some kind of health insurance/coverage program - simply because current costs are growing so exponentially that THEY can not afford to keep paying that much out. As this pressure mounts - I will venture to guess that some kind of policy will result.

[Hippo_Tron]

122. WAIT HE HAS A POINT!!!

Sorry for the all caps, but you guys wouldn't pay attention if I didn't. The one problem with your facts is that they aren't exactly true, they are Rush Limbaugh talking points. Ineffective tax and spend liberalism goes back to the Carter administration. Democrats generally only want to raise taxes on people who simply don't need the money. Often we support tax breaks where they are useful ex: tax credits to businesses to hire more employees. While you are right that we need to not be the "tax and spend" party, the truth is that we simply aren't. If somebody would please post that list of everything Clinton did during his term, I think you will see what I am talking about.

[Zorra]

123. I'm curious, do you vote for

republicans from time to time? Are you, like, one of those "Reagan Democrats"?

[Hippo_Tron]

124. I'll say what I think of this...

Although I know the question wasn't directed to me. First off, I would vote for Republicans from time to time if I could find some that I actually liked. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find one that can go an entire sentance without talking about "family values". As far as being a Reagan Democrat, well here's my answer. Reagan was in no means godly like the GOP makes him out to be. However, I don't think Reagan was a terrible president like Dubya is. Honestly, I wasn't old enough to vote back when Reagan was president so I can't tell you if I would've voted for or against him.

[Zorra]

129. Reagan was horrible. And the thought of a Democrat

actually supporting a candidate is a member of a party with the ideology that the republican party has (no offense intended) worries me. Anyone with a rational, logical mind and a compassionate heart would not be a member of the republican party.

Look at the mess our country is in. It is the result of republican voters, and republican ideology.

[Robin Hood]

126. If you don't think that National health care is a good idea,

Then what do you propose to fix the current health care crisis? And it is a crisis. What about the burden that the costs of Health care place on business and the people? The costs are out rageous.

Something has got to give. And National health care paid for by the people and costs controlled by the government, would be a business bonanza in this country.

[guajira]

130. Health Costs is a Very Complex Subject - We Pay and Others get Free

health care. In Miami, anyone who didn't have health insurance went to Jackson Memorial or Mt. Sinai emergency rooms and were treated free. When women were ready to give birth, they called 911 and were taken directly to Jackson Memorial.

Most people in this country have at least emergency health care available to them, however those of us who pay insurance premiums are helping to cover the costs of the uninsured. My health insurance goes up every year despite the fact that my usage doesn't (don't get me wrong, I am happy to not have to collect!!!).

However, my coverage is minimum HMO. No elective procedures included, just basic needs. Getting a specialist, even if needed, is not easy!

This works the same way in car insurance. The insured pay for the ones who are uninsured.

[quaker bill]

131. It is consistent with my religion to vote to raise my taxes.

Government waste fraud and abuse is a partisan boogieman proped up by conservatives to whip on civil servants, who generally vote for Democrats.

No one in Government holds a candle in the "waste, fraud, and abuse" department to the likes of Ken Lay and his buddies. Corporate fraud has wasted much more of your money than governemnt programs.

Medicare wastes less money than the corporate fraud perpetrated by insurance companies and the various healthcare middlemen, who cure no one, but suck a fine living off the healthcare system. How am I sure of this, simply because the pot of money in medicare is smaller.

The reason it seems that "Government screws up everything" is simple. Government programs are almost never properly funded and staffed. Why is this, because people want the service, but find raising their taxes to pay for the services they want "against their religion".

In so far as transportation 20/20 is concerned, sit in traffic.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

132. an oxymoron if ever i heard one almost as bad as Canada's

Conservative Progressive Party

[mrgorth]

133. None taken but...

There really should be a seperate party for you pro-business social liberals. If the libertarians aren't the answer you guys should be the Republicrats!

[Skittles]

134. if you tthink Democrats are the TAX AND SPEND PARTY

you are so f***ing DELUSIONAL I don't even know where to begin. Perhaps with the figure 87 BILLION DOLLARS? Ring a bell, does it????? :puke: Now go watch some more FOX NEWS. :puke:

[guajira]

136. Read the posts - I KNOW Dems aren't the tax and spend party ....

That is the label against us that makes many Americans go to the Repuke party! What I have said repeatedly is that when we Dems don't expose the truth, we allow ourselves to be labelled!!!

[Selwynn]

189. You wrote: Democrats need to stop being the "tax and spend" party!!

So um... do you recant that now?

[RapidCreek]

135. actually you are far from being a Democrat...

You appear to me to someone who's attempting to make Clark look bad, in a rather transperant fashion, I might add. Funny thing is...I'm not even a Clark supporter.

RC

[guajira]

137. That doesn't make sense - I want Clark to be our Next President!

Why would I want to make him look bad? Sounds like pretzel logic!

[Tinoire]

139. Isn't there a Conservaitives for Clark board somewhere?

Seems to me you'd be more comfortable there with those conservative views. You could then come together with the Democratic Clark supporters elsewhere- like on a Clark 2004 board.

That way we can all keep out ideas separate and undiluted.

[qanda]

141. No!

The Republicans need to stop being the "spend and pass it on to our kids" party!

[GOPBasher]

145. No offense taken here. I'm liberal, but

I think in order to beat Bush in 2004, we need a large coalition. Although I may disagree with you on many issues, I still want you to vote for the Dem candidate. I'm glad you're in the party and supporting Clark.

A word of caution: Most people here will tell you that you're not a Democrat. Don't let them do that! This site is generally wayyyyy to the left of the American mainstream. So listen to your heart, not DUers.

As for the issues where you say you're a "conservative," let's talk a bit about Bush on them. He's given us the RECORD BUDGET and a RECORD DEFICIT. So, he's not very "conservative" on those issues, is he? Bill Clinton spent less and gave us huge surplusses. So, a real conservative shouldn't like Bush.

Anyway, vote Dem in 2004. :-)

[guajira]

146. I always vote Democrat - a straight ticket!!

I just want us Dems to show the B* supporters that we are the fiscally conservative party, and Repukes are the "Special Interests" party. B*'s tax cuts are a shell game, costing us more in the long run.

We need to get our message out if we expect to get rid of B*! The question is, will we do it??

[burr]

169. you sound like an outright commie to me!!!

a straight ticket, eh??

[Cat Atomic]

148. It's a tough message to get accross, but the Democratic

Party is more fiscally conservative than the Republican Party. As you already mentioned, Republicans essentially borrow money and hand it to the rich by way of corporate welfare.

When the Republicans talk about spending money on "defense", they aren't talking about veterans' benefits or military pay raises. They're talking about massive cash giveaways to military contractors. THAT's the real waste, fraud, and mismanagement of tax dollars.

Democrats need to make it clear that government spending is central to the functioning of our economy, and that we don't HAVE to spend that money on missiles and gunships. We could just as easily spend it on national healthcare, education, infrastructure... you name it.

Anyway, I'd probably disagree with you on some issues, but I for one am happy to be in the same party with you.

[SharonAnn]

150. It's Republican doctors who rip off Medicare. Think about it!

The ones I know who've been caught in my area turned out to big Republican donors and supporters. What a surprise!

[mermaid]

159. You'd Almost Think It Was A Master Plan!!

If that is true, you'd almost think it was a master plan...to discredit Medicare and Medicaid by showing a bunch of waste and fraud...so that then the systems can be eliminated.

By the way, I happen to have a vested interest in the continuation of Medicaid...since I work for a private contractor that processes Medicaid claims for the State of Texas. no Medicaid, and I'm straight outta a job....

[Design8edGrouch]

153. The difference between liberal and conservatives...

Liberals tend to think "I've got mine, let me help you get yours too."
Conservatives tend to think "I've got mine and F#%k you very much."

Conservatives are big on accountability as long as those being held accountable are liberals, the poor, and the disenfranchised. Liberals hardly ever hold conservatives accountable.

Conservatives tend to think that taxes are unjust when they have to pay them. Liberals tend to think of them as the fees you pay to live in a just and free society. Sort of like green fees for playing on a golf course.

Both conservatives and liberals buy into the seemingly common sense addage that "A rising tide raises all boats." A true liberal worries that some may not have the boat and are forced to cling to the rocks during high tide.

[mermaid]

161. I Couldn' Have Said It Better Myself!! EVERYONE READ...EXCELLENT POST!!!

'Nuff Said!!

[Orangepeel]

156. that sales tax ...

was endorsed by both parties and primarily the baby of the Orange County Chairman (i.e., the mayor of the county), who is a republican.

[burr]

165. no offense...but universal healthcare is a defining issue for our party!

IMHO even conservative Democrats must support a plan in which private insurers will be required to provide community rated premiums to all, deny coverage to no individual, and a plan in which all people can buy into much like the one Federal Employees have now. Liberals would support a single-payer approach. But regardless of what kind of Democrat you are, what makes us Democrats is that we will not stop until "every person" is covered! Call it national healthcare if you like, repukes call it socialized medicine...to Harry Truman it was just part of a Fair Deal.

You claim the government screws everything up...but this is news to me! The private sector could not exist without the government. Comman law is the foundation for any free society, and without a government to enforce or regulate laws..what would liberity or justice mean? On defense, both liberals and conservatives would disagree with you here! This country has the most powerful, most effective military force on the planet. Federal reserve system, our banking system..is still the envy of the world. And this could continue if shrub's taxcuts are all repealed, and we finally begin to pay down the national debt!

You say Democrats should stop being the tax and spend party...but all "responsible" officeholders know that this is how any government must operate. The other alternatives are to elect "irresponsible" officeholders who will ignore our national problems and just borrow the necessary money from future generations, or to throw in the towel on our system of government completely.

In other words...conservative or liberal doesn't get us out of a $6 trillian debt or a Great Depression, but a progressive agenda can!

[bluestateguy]

170. Well, OK-

But don't expect real conservatives to take you seriously. When they go into the voting booth, if they want a conservative, they'll want the Real McCoy, the original product, not an imitation. At the same time, liberal Democrats will just yawn, if they even vote at all.

I have an idea: Let's have two parties.

[Piperay]

173. I'm a Moderate Democrat

and as long as you vote Democratic I have no complaint. :shrug:


I'm a Clark supporter too. :thumbsup: :-)


EDIT: Clarity.

[Q]

176. It's interesting how guajira backpeddles...

...when challenged on his original post.

- This isn't the opinion of a 'conservative' Democrat. It's much closer to the mantra of the Right.

- guajira outright accuses Dems of being the 'tax and spend' party...and then backs away from his statement by saying he's only quoting the Right.

[guajira]

184. I am a Progressive Democrat -- fiscally conservative - NOT a Centrist!

I support Clark and Dean because I do not consider them Repuke-lite, like Lieberman and Gephardt!

My point is that Dems are not the "tax and spend" party and we should use stats and whatever truth info and advertising we can to get rid of that label. Someone yesterday told me he thinks we Dems will get America into another Depression - this right wing-nut propaganda has to be dispelled if we are to get rid of Bush*!!

I hadn't heard the term blue-dog Democrat that was used in the above post, but it seems like something we should consider. There are problems in the party, we Dems should be willing to take an honest look at what they are. We have "lost" the WH, House of Reps. and Senate, and the DLC could be part of the reason - advising Dems to vote for Iraq Invasion, and be Repuke-lites!

[Selwynn]

190. Progressive and "fiscal conservative" are incompatible. Period.

[rman]

177. the issue is: what is tax being spend on

millions and billions for war and corporate wellfare.

or millions and billions on healthcare, education, infrastucture etc.

also it should be obvious that repubs are bigger spenders then dems.
just look at the deficits created by various types of presidents.

This is pretty much the defining issue regarding repub policies vs dem policies.
If you really think there should be no tax, and everything that has to do with the common good has to privatized, then you are a conservative, not a democrat.

[Polemonium]

185. A note on your right wing rhetoric

waste, fraud, mismanagement - yes there is some of that. The government screws up everything -- hmmm is Medicare everything, and for that matter is all of Medicare screwed up. Let's see what has happened since the tax and spend folks got voted out of Washington. Millions more children are living in poverty, the members of a smug oligarchy have become richer and more powerful (you I don't think are a member, so chances are you have become less well off), the protections for the environment have decreased, the budget deficit is growing faster than ever, the military has become the biggest tax gobbler only to encourage the rest of the world to hate us more than they already do, etc. All of this evidence and yet you still throw right wing rhetoric into the mix. Our current problems have nothing to do with taxes but with how the current right wing nuts are choosing to spend those taxes.

National Health care is not a good idea? What would you propose? Ahh yes government incentives for employers - that would no doubt raise taxes. What about the unemployed, the mentally ill, the working poor etc.; many of whom would not be covered by "companies" giving benefits to people. Further, how much worse should the health care that the working poor receive be than the health care for the rich folks? Isn't a tax budgeted by democratically elected people the best possible way to improve the health care problem in this country? Is a non-democratic option really going to best represent most of us better? Granted we may fail to elect people who are interested in helping the majority of us out on this. We may indeed fail to keep our eyes open enough to catch waste, and fraud. But what in the hell else would you propose?

In a democracy truly run by people looking out for the interests of the majority of us taxation is not some evil thing. It is the way for us to GIVE democratically to ensure that problems are addressed. The problem now is that the folks in office don't represent the needs of most of us, so please help do something about it instead of throwing right wing jargon at us as if it meant anything.

[Undemcided]

192. Government waste.

I work really f*cking hard for my money and when I see it's not treated with respect it pisses me off.