Illegal immigration should stop

[laura888]

ok - I'm a tried and true leftie. But this is one topic find I don't see eye-to-eye on with some progressives.

While I sympathize with the plight of those living in poverty overseas, I don't think its in the interest of the U.S. to allow illegal immigration to continue as it has. I live in a large metro area where there are many, many immigrants, and frankly, its getting CROWDED! there has to be some way to say "stop" - if not now, at least some time in the future.

The countries from which these immigrants are coming need to reform themselves to make their countries liveable.

That said, companies that hire illegal immigrants should be prosecuted harshly.

what is wrong with clamping down on illegal immigration?

[Maple]

1. Other than it's not

physically possible?

[Liberal Veteran]

3. Well it is to some extent....

I worked in a factory 80 miles north of the Mexican border and border patrol came by and raided the factory and it looked like a damned hornet nest with people passing car keys and running out the back doors and such. And the people who ran the factory knew damned well who was in the country illegally.

[quaker bill]

6. Good, simple, and obvious answer.

If you think that Asscroft is making a police state now, imagine what he would have to try to do to accomplish this.

It would not be a country I would want to live in.

[demnan]

2. What is wrong with it?

It would hurt the poor people but not the "system". All trying to keep desperate people out would do is you'll have more extreme ways people are smuggled in, more deaths in the Southwest deserts. There is no way you can stop illegal immigration except to make this a police state, and although Ashcroft is well on the way to doing that anyway, I'm sure they still won't have adequate funding for the Customs Agents at the borders.

These customs agents, by the way, can always be bribed.

[Padraig18]

4. Be prepared to see:

The hotel/motel, restaurant and construction industries face a SEVERE labor shortage.

[laura888]

no - not if they raise their wages to ones Americans can live on...

I hear the same thing about teachers and nurses and job shortages in those industries. Well, duh! Raising wages will bring people to these jobs in droves!

[Padraig18]

10. It will also significantly drive up costs. n/t

[Meshuga]

19. I agree.

Who can afford to raise wages like that? Eventually this would kill the industry. We need immigrants and it would be beneficial if we could give legal status to good illegal workers.

[Padraig18]

21. Exactly!

An amnesty program that gets them on the tax rolls makes MUCH more sense.

[laura888]

22. so... some kind of test for illegals...

...if your'e a good one (read: they bow and say "yes, master") they can stay?

Once they're legal, they'll demand humane, decent-paying, safe working conditions. So then you'll have to get some more illegals.

[Meshuga]

24. No, you don't get some more illegals

I agree with you. Make them legal so they can get a decent paying job with safe working conditions. Any illegal who comes to the US to work because they want to feed their family are good to me. As opposed to bad illegals who get caught stealing or commiting crimes. They are usually shipped back.

We need immigrants and we allow thousands every year through a lottery system. I just wish we had a better system and made easier for people to come here to work legally.

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. The time to stop illegal immigration was 500 years ago

At this point, rounding up all descendants of European invaders and forcing them on to boats back to Ireland and Spain or wherever would put an undue strain on the shipping industry, and more importantly would constitute collective punishment for millions of innocent Europeans whose ancestors stayed in Europe and who do not deserve a blonddump of millions of people who will try to drive on the wrong side of the road and endanger lives and property.




edit typo

[quaker bill]

8. LOL

Good post.

[Clete]

35. ROFLMAO

Good one. :thumbsup:

[salin]

7. Dry up the labor demand

watch the immigration become much less of a problem.

Make those employers pay minimum wage or higher, and maintain safe work conditions. This is why so many like illegal labor- it is very cheap.

I wish most of the immigrant anger would be focused on the real culprits - the employers.

[Liberal Veteran]

9. Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

You are so right on.

[Maple]

13. Except for the ones

who don't have 'employers' and do their own thing.

And assuming you want to raid everyone's homes for possible illegals.

And in the meantime...more arrive.

[sandnsea]

44. Go to the head of the class

Correct answer!! (Did you play that game as a kid, or am I really dating myself?) Old Lou Dobbs has been harping on this for weeks now. He just can't seem to grasp that if LEGAL employers were paying LEGAL wages, there would be no benefit in hiring immigrants and the so-called problem would resolve itself.

[aeon flux]

11. There's a difference between progress and lunacy

I was flabbergasted when Cruz Bustamante said if elected governor he would allow any undocumented immigrants from Mexico to receive valid California Drivers' licenses. Is it any wonder he lost the election to Arnold S.? It seems like Bustamante WANTED to lose by saying something like that.

That is just the craziest idea I ever heard. Sheer lunacy. It would just encourage an even greater flood of illegal immigration that bankrupt California can ill-afford. Bustamante belongs in a padded cell along with Arnold S. for even mentioning it. Why does California always get the crappiest candidates for governor?

[Orangeone]

29. Hey

Your comments sound pretty racist since you focus on illegal Immigrants from Mexico. I guess illegal immigrants from Russia, Ireland, etc are o.k? Before Prop 187, illegal aliens were allowed to get drivers licenses, so I don't understand why you are so upset about this.

[Clete]

36. Yes, and welcome to DU.

No one talks about the ones from Russia, Ireland, etc..

[not systems]

47. You and the rest of the herd.

Never mind that 2 million undocumented workers live and
work in California. They need to get to work and driver
their kids to school. If you live here you share the
road with them everyday. The food you eat is subsidized
by their labor.

What it appears we can ill afford is a person like
Bustamante who will tell the truth and take the right
stand on this issue regardless of what a bunch of kneejerk
race baiters and closet haters have to say about it.
We can't afford it because the facts have no impact on the
minds of the mass of voters as the election of Arnold
proves.

In a world gone mad the sane man will appear insane.

[jiacinto]

12. You make good points

The other issue is that with illegal aliens in the US it lowers the wages for other employees who are here legally. Since illegals are always at risk to get caught employers will abuse them and take advatange of them as much as possible. That way they can lower the wages of all employees.

I do agree that their home countries need to be reformed.

[aeon flux]

23. I'm glad Bustamante didn't win,

but I'm not exactly thrilled Arnold S. won it either.

Turns out that Arnold's populist campaign was a total sham. He ran a platform to agrressively reform California politics. But as soon as he got into office, he staffed his entire transition committee with conservative and ultra-conservative insiders. They were all safe choices from the business community or career politicians, not cutting-edge executives likely to have fresh idea.

From the Orange County Register,

"The team appears to have been put together by aides to Schawrzennegger's political mentor, former Gov. Pete Wilson. It is heavy on establishment figures and devoid of anyone who is known to challenge the status quo. If those are the people on whom AS is depending to recommend the "best and brightest" for his administration, he risks surrounding himself with the GOP flip side to Gray Davis--incrementalists who will be cautious to a fault."

A sad day for California.

[not systems]

49. Why do you like Arnold better than Bustamante.

Arnold didn't run a "populist" he ran media blitzkreig
bombing the state via the airwaves and cable not stop.

What about Bustamante do you dislike so much?

Was it his strong stand for the rights of the poorest workers
in the state?

Was it the way he was short, fat and bald on TV?

Or something else.

[Clete]

34. I am shocked at you.

Is this post, close the door after me? Illegals only lower wages because they are illegal. And how many legals really want to fry burgers all day, mop toilets and pick cabbage? Get your head out of those right wing text books and into the real world.

[DeathvadeR]

14. We come to America......Oley!!!!!!

Come on who's gonna serve you lunch? Who's gonna clean your houses or your cars? Who's gonna pump that gas? Who's gonna dry clean those clothes? Who's gonna mow that Yard? Who's gonna sell those oranges??
Hmmm? Personally I like to have my mini me slaves from third world countries working for me aon every corner. Let more of em come chasing that ficticious dream of democracy....that way it drives up competion and things are even cheaper. Let more of them come to fund and fill our Jail cells, I mean drug offenders can only do so much. Piss you off? Well it Should!!! This is whats happening and we all are playing part. You can't have Rich without poor, Sweet without Sour, Day without Night.

[Meshuga]

15. Other than crime...

Illegal immigrants don't really bother me. What's wrong if people want to come to the United States to find work?

These people are willing to work in the types of jobs Americans would not consider. They are willing to risk their lives to wash plates in here the US and be able to feed their family.

Telling developing countries to reform themselves is easier said than done. Besides, we need immigrants. Instead of having immigrants cross illegally we need immigration law reform to make easier for people willing to work to come to the US.

[progressivejazz]

16. I agree.

And I agree the way to stop it is to fine companies that hire them a hefty amount, say $1000 per day per illegal worker. We could use the proceeds from the first few such fines to hire more people to enforce the law--a snowball effect that would end with very few illegals working.

Since there would be nowhere to work, illegals would stop coming here for jobs. This would dramatically decrease the number of deaths of illegals trying to enter the country.

These jobs could then be taken by legal residents of the United States at (by the law of supply and demand) higher wages. These Americans would also have the right to unionize. Sure, my hotel and restaurant bills would go up, but it's a small price to pay for a more just society. How can anybody be against paying a living wage to all American workers?

[laura888]

18. ding ding - we have another winner!

well put, progressivejazz...

[jiacinto]

20. Well

The other thing is that the illegal employee makes it possible for the boss to treat everyone like dirt.

[sandnsea]

45. No it is the ILLEGAL wages

paid by LEGAL employers who shouldn't be LEGAL when they break labor laws.

[Sterling]

55. I agree

It undercuts the American worker. Illegal imigration is a way of creating a slave servant class. It only benifits the right wing lizard people not the average joe.

[Clete]

37. So who is going to do these jobs?

I would guess "all American workers". So it appears that those workers from other parts of North America and South America don't count do they? So do "all American workers" really mean anyone of Northern European ancestry?

[sandnsea]

46. waitressing, construction, housekeeping...

Uhm, my kids. Every one of them has done work of this sort at one point or other. So have I and my husband. It's pure bullshit to say there's no one to do these jobs, especially with the unemployment rate we have.

[Clete]

51. Gimme a break.

Back in the 1980's a grand sweep of illegals was made by the immigration department and the police in Southern California and thousands of illegals were sent back to Mexico. Of course that was only Mexicans and other Central Americans. My Swedish neighbor and various other Northern Europeans I knew, who were here illegally, didn't get picked up incidentally.

So since these illegals were working in the fields, the agro-businesses were stuck with crops of strawberries that needed to be harvested right away. In desperation they went to the unemployment office and even offered minimum wages to get American workers into the field. Not a single one lasted the whole day. In desparation the immigratrion looked the other way. The illegals came back to bring in the crops.

Subsequently there was the first amnesty of all illegals here, which my European acquaintances also benefitted from. Since then there have been no large roundups because, I am sure, the agro-business has bribed all the right authorities to maintain the status quo. So if you really want to lay blame, go there.

Greedy corporations need those illegals so they don't have to pay minimum wage and worker's compensation. Our ass-licking "elected" officials comply.

[Sterling]

56. Thats odd all my Euro friends have it very hard.

They seem to have a much harder time finding work and staying in the country than the millions of illegals in So Cal.

[Clete]

61. Why are they looking for work, cleaning bathrooms

or picking cabbage? Are they willing to live five or six to a bedroom to save on rent for the days they don't get work?

[readmylips]

17. Call Illegal Immigration by its rightful name....

Modern Day Slavery. USA cannot function without this modern day slavery. The work that these slaves perform, Americans don't want to do. I mean, slaves of today even raise white American children so that two parents can earn a living. So nothing has changed in the good USA.

[Sterling]

57. Exactly ,the new slave economy.

This is progressive? Letting the lords and nobles create a class of serfs working below the poverty line?

[wdwilder]

25. llegal accounting

worries me more than illegal immigration. The illegal immigrants seem to be very focused on putting a new roof on my house and good food on my table while those engaged in illegal accounting practices seem desirous of wanting to throw me onto the street and forcing me to spend my last years on this planet begging for soup and dodging the troll bashers.

If money can move across borders without restriction then why can't people?

[AP]

26. If you think it's crowded in the US, you haven't driven through Nebraska,

or spent time in downtown Detroit.

In fact, immigration, legal and otherwise, is the only thing keeping some parts of Detroit vibrant.

[fedupwithbush]

27. I agree with you.

I'm a Democrat on most issues, but this one won't fly with me.

What some people forget is that those entry level jobs are where a lot of people start, whether in high school, during college or if they don't go to college. And if employers wouldn't hire illegals, the jobs, to repeat others, would be safer and better paid. I've been a maid, a waitress, a dishwasher, when I was younger. It's called paying your dues for some of us. Not everyone gets to start out with a fully funded college education and then go into a higher paying job! Some of us don't even get to go to college, for whatever reason. Many of those jobs are stepping stones to better ones. I have respect for anyone working any of those jobs. They are doing what they have to do to support their family. For anyone to say those jobs don't matter, so give them to illegals, makes my blood boil.

And I'm also pissed about the H1B workers. When we let a lot of experienced foriegners legally come here and work. The colleges do have people graduating that can take those jobs. And demand will create a supply. If they would have never started that program, a lot more engineers and IT workers would still have jobs or be able to find one.

As far as cheaper fruit for me to buy at the grocery store? No, cause I'm going to pay in higher taxes to support a huge population where the illegals aren't paying taxes, but they do use our schools and our infrastructure.

Plus I've lived in towns with a lot of illegals. Guess what? They are also put upon by landlords too. They are too scared because they have no legal authority to be in this country to turn crooks in or protest mistreatment. So besides being low-paid with no insurance, no retirement fund, they have to deal with living conditions most of us wouldn't put up with. And still pay the higher rent. Maybe slum lords should call it "dumps for dollars".

I moved to keep my children from going to a school where 40% of the class were non-english speaking. The classes were huge, up to 40 or more in each one. The teachers were swamped, and then to top it off they had to spend precious time teaching English before they could get to the basic education needed in this country to get ahead. So my children, who were born here, would have started at a disadvantage from schools without the huge language problem.

And you'll hate this one too. I think anyone who moves here legally should be required to know English before they attend school or anything else. Why? It devalues my families education when they have to go slower so the people who don't speak English can catch up. My husband ran into that at college. Very smart graduate assistants, but only if you could understand them. The professors were nowhere to be seen. Last, if I decided to move to another country, whether it was France, Mexico or where ever! I would learn that countries language.

Businesses are being required to make paperwork multi-lingual. Printing costs money. Who's paying for the extra ink and paper? And when I call a business and have to spend extra time on the phone to make the choice of which language I want used I get steamed.

I'm all for a given number of legal immigrations per year. But give me a break. We can't support the flow coming in. At the rate of growth the US is on, we're going to be over-flowing in the future to the point our farmland will only support us and none will be left over for export. Any quality of life you have now, will be untouchable by our children. So keep on making it easy for huge amounts of illegal immigration, loosen those laws, and look the other way. It's just going to make it worse that much sooner.

[Sterling]

58. I have worked crap jobs ans was happy to have them

Crap jobs are only made crappier by illegal imigration.

[speckledgator]

28. I work in

the citrus industry, and trust me....white folks are not lining up to pick fruit! I know we have illegals, but almost all of them have fake ID good enough to be on the tax rolls. Some of the ID is comically bad....like the fake drivers lisence I had when I was 15 that said I was 26.....it was good enough to get me beer though. As "draining" as these folks are supposed to be on the economy, they sure spend alot of money here. Few of them will ever see the money they are paying into SSI. Makes you wonder who is preying on who?

[KG]

30. there's enough for all in this country.

unfortunately, an unmanaged economy keeps the wealth from being more equitable spread so that immigrants can be easily absorbed and everyone here, citizen and arrivals, can make a decent living.

[foreigncorrespondent]

31. I'm all for legal immigration...

...in any country including the USA.

As many know Sapphocrat is my partner. She is an American citizen by birth, but doesn't have the right to sponsor me for immigration, because we are a same sex couple.

I am all for cracking down on illegal immigration. Hell Sapphocrat and I are always preaching to the same sex couples we know through the discussion list we run, to do it the legal way, never do anything illegal. Not only does it make it harder to get accurate statistics, which we can use to advance the PPIA with, it gives us a bad name as well.

It would be hard to crack down on illegal immigration in the USA. Being as how the size of the country, and the amount of people that are there. I think it would be better if they took a proper look at their immigration process, and perhaps lighten up on it a little, or do a point system like many countries are now doing. The United States is one of the hardest countries to get into through the immigration process.

If you make it easier for people to immigrate, then you will find that people are going to go about it the correct way.

Make it that you accept so many people per country each year.

It would work, and it would make it easier to clamp down on the illegals.

It also doesn't help that the people do know that the United States will do an amnesty. Stop the amnesty. If people know that after they have been there for so long they will get a right of pass through the amnesty process, then they will take that risk.

[Clete]

38. It always amazes me that people who are victims of

discrimination would also be so intolerant of others who are different from them.

[foreigncorrespondent]

42. Who am I being intollerant against?

I am simply saying what would fix an immigration problem.

How the hell do you think I feel???? I have a partner who IS an AMERICAN CITIZEN BY BIRTH but who doesn't have the right to sponsor me for immigration. How do you think it makes me feel when I hear so many stories of illegals getting a fair break through amnesty, yet my partner and I still live 8,000 fucking miles away from one another?

I DO NOT discriminate against these people. Fine they crossed the border illegally I wish them luck, but so long as so many keep going that route, it makes it harder for ME who has a legitimate reason to be there to get there.

Do not accuse me of being intollerant mate, I have been fucking tollerant for three and half fucking years! While your country continues to discriminate against me!

How do you think it makes my fucking partner feel to know that an illegal immigrant has more rights than she does?

[Clete]

50. First the illegal immigrant doesn't have more rights

than the legal immigrant. Secondly, it's the same people who vote for the initiative and the laws that makes illegal immigrants illegal. These are the same people that through legislation keeps your partner from being able to sponsor you with the same rights as heterosexual married couples.

If your point is that the illegals be made legal so you can be sponsored, well I don't think it will happen that way. Until every last white person in American can be made to face up to their racism and homophobia, things aren't going to change.

This thread is nothing but flame bait anyway and is intended to scapegoat a group of people who can't speak for themselves. Look for many more of them in the months of the election. They cover racism, women's rights, entitlement programs and probably now, voting. Most of the points are right wing points not so cleverly worded to cause infighting.

[foreigncorrespondent]

54. Oh but the illegal will have more rights...

...than the rights of my partner, especially once they get through the amnesty process.

My point has nothing to do with illegals being made legal so my partner can sponsor me. I do not appreciate you attacking my intelligence like that. I have been studying YOUR countries immigration policy for the last four years of my life, I think I have a pretty good idea on what it is all about.

And don't say that the lawmakers who keep me apart from the person I love more than life itself, are one in the same, they aren't!

On edit: And don't worry I won't be looking to immigrate to your country again. This thread has shown me that the United States truly isn't the place for me. Never has been, never will be.

[Sterling]

59. It is not that at all.

Many liberal understand that illegal immigration hurts society at large and most of all low wage workers. It is not intolerant to want to see people make a fair wage and be able to compete with the upperclass at the wage negotiation table.

There is a class war going on even if you don't want to admit it. Like Union busting illigal workers are a tool of the elite to hold the lower class down.

[laura888]

60. Agreed! This is a gripe with employers....

...more than anything.

thanks for posting.

[Clete]

62. Of course they are. The light is shining in.

But, making their misery at the mercy of the corporate lords, a reason to scapegoat them is racist in my mind.

[foreigncorrespondent]

63. Racist you say...

Clete wrote in post 33:

I do have a question though. Which illegal immigration do you object to most, the one from Mexico of workers, who pick crops, work as cooks, janitors and gardeners, or the ones who come from Europe, Australia and New Zealand, and who really do take jobs from white Americans because they, well look like them?

That sounds pretty racist from where I am sitting Clete!

<sarcasm> I am so sorry a mere handful of Aussies are taking jobs from Americans each year, Clete. Let me be the first Aussie to apologise for this disgusting act we are performing. </sarcasm>

Now shall we talk about the fact that there are more Americans living and working in Australia, than Aussies living and working in the USA?

Shall we also talk about the fact that I don't think the American's who have made a life for themselves here are taking a job away from any Aussie? I see them as being a great attribute to my country.

On edit: Fixing a typo.

[Snow]

32. We need to mention the US's long history of fear of

non-European 'invasions'. Examples abound in California history, and at least a part of the concern over undocumented immigrants, epecially in California and Texas, stems from the all but certain trend in demographics - within a few years, those of white European descent will be very much a minority. Lotta whites have never been in the situtation for any length of time wherein they were a minority and could not get out of that situation. Texas redistricting, California's prop 187, to a large degree are driven by that fear.

[Clete]

33. I usually don't post on threads that proclaim

how leftie the poster is, but.....

I do have a question though. Which illegal immigration do you object to most, the one from Mexico of workers, who pick crops, work as cooks, janitors and gardeners, or the ones who come from Europe, Australia and New Zealand, and who really do take jobs from white Americans because they, well look like them?

[laura888]

40. If 50 out of 60 in a neighborhood grocery store were Aussies...

... I would say "maybe we should a few of them back down under!"

This is not a racial thing, as much as a rant that, like it or not, the U.S. has limited resources, and for the good of all, we need to think ahead about conservation.

If I'm not mistaken, these countries' overpopulation is one of the things these people are fleeing. Each country needs to take measures to make sure that they can sustain their populace, without having millions in dire straits.

And no, I wasn't "proclaiming" how leftie I am - just making an observation that this topic is one I sometime disagree on with other lefties.

[Clete]

41. You didn't answer my question.

And there are quite a few Aussies here. Oh yes, Rupert Murdoch is an Aussie who has taken over our media and made it into a Bush propaganda machine, but I guess that's okay to you because he speaks something that passes for English and isn't BROWN.

[LibertyorDeath]

39. Yes and pigs should fly

[SahaleArm]

43. Capitalists and Progressives Agree:)

Open the Doors: http://www.jimrogers.com/content/stories/articles/Open_the_Doors.html

[SoCalDem]

48. As a Californian, I can tell you this.. It's not gonna stop

UNTIL:


It's financially prohibitive to hire illegals..


If and when we have a national ID card with a unique number on it, there will actually be a way to stop companies from hiring illegals..

If each employee had to be identified by his/her ID number and the fine for hiring illegals was say $50,000.00 per hire, things might change, but until then, employers will still hire illegals.. Why would they NOT..

they work cheap
they never complain
they never miss work
they never strike
no benefits have to be paid for them
probably lots of employers never even pay SS for them, but DO deduct from the employee (making it even cheaper to hire them)

This is my biggest gripe with the rightwingers.. They talk out of both sides of their mouths on immigration.. They really do NOT want it stopped, they just want the immigrants themselves to shut up, live quietly and never ask for anything (like health care, education financial assistance)..In public, they pretend to want the immigration stopped, but if that actually happened, they would lose their most productive workers..(also the reason that THEIR profits can be so high)

[tlcandie]

52. Just build a wall ..

OPERATION GATEKEEPER







http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/rm99.html

http://www.azstarnet.com/border/30606BORDERPATROL.html

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.08/beyond_wall.html

http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1370b-1.html

http://www.worldwidewamm.org/newsletters/2001/0501newsletter/USMexicoBorder.html

http://www.derechoshumanosaz.net/Wall_info/wall_index.htm



Although this is only the US/Mexican border wall that will stretch the ENTIRE border between the two countries...there have been many other walls (China, Berlin) and will continue to be walls such as this one and the Israel/Palestine wall...

[Capn Sunshine]

53. Yeah, that's really doing the trick, isn't it?

LOL