I'm 100% against voting computers - even with a voter-verified paper trail

[TruthIsAll]

We need PAPER BALLOTS. Here is why. Its very simple.

OK, we have finally gotten Diebold to include a paper trail. We now can visually audit a paper copy of our vote. But we still don't know exactly HOW the vote was tallied inside the machine and accumulated on the server. But at least we have our paper.

So the votes are tallied. Bush cheats by just enough to "win" the state by 1%. But this is too big a spread to warrant a recount. So there is no recount. The Dem loses.

We sit at home and stare at our paper copy. We throw it in the fireplace.

And wait until the next Thomas Jefferson comes along.

[MasonJar]

1. Paper trail

The paper trail must be at the voting precinct so that questionable results can be checked the old-fashioned way, having one to take home is zilch.

[gristy]

2. I want paper ballots too, with NO electronic count

But the scenario you describe is caught with the process mandated in Holt's bill. Isn't it?

[Clete]

4. I believe you are right.

There could be an electronic scan of a paper ballot, but they should also be counted manually to verify the totals on the journal report. Other than that, errors can happen and the unscrupulous are invited to tamper with results.

Also it can manually be put in columns in a spreadsheet program, which would cut down on a lot of the work, but still yield verifiable results.

[sabbat hunter]

3. voting machine

i think some sort of paper trail is needed too. but to go back to all paper ballots is not good either. too much hand counting is possible.

NYS has what is considered 'old fashioned' machines, but they seem pretty good to me. they are lever style for those who arent familiar.

when you enter the booth you pull a big lever to close the curtain and unlock the voting machine. you then push down a button or lever for each candidate. when finished you pull the big lever back. as you move it, the buttons or small levers work mechanically to change a number hidden in the back, reset the levers.

old fashioned yes. but dependable and accurate yes.
reliablity is down as parts come hard to find, but if states go back to something similar, parts become avaible again.

any other suggestions?


peace
david
:hippie:

[Clete]

5. Hand counting can be done pain free.

It's no different than counting cash, credit cards and coupons in a supermarket and these are always counted by hand on a daily basis.

[sabbat hunter]

7. yes but

when you count out cash in a supermarket you get a read out or print out of what you should have on hand. you then hand count it to verify and make a deposit. same goes with coupons and such.

the readout will say you should have x dollars in coupons. you then hand count them to verify. it doesnt say how many are 50 cents how many are $1 off etc. and it doesnt matter. as long as the total verifies you are ok

with voting you have a total of how many voted, but you want to know how many for candidate A, how many for B etc. yes it can be done by hand, but it is slow and prone to human error.
that is why the mechanical machines are good.

it tells you that for president on row A the candidate got x votes, Row B got Y votes etc.
the only adding needed by hand is for candidates on multiple lines and that is double verified.


peace
david
:hippie:

[Clete]

11. Hi David.

It seems daunting, but for me this is an accounting problem. You can't verify a count on anything until you have a debit and a credit. The only way this can be done is with double entry.

[gristy]

6. Do you live in NYS?

Your lever machines are headed for the dump, to be replaced by ES&S DRE machines. Or so I think I have heard. Wanna lead the charge in NY for us (the people)??

[sabbat hunter]

8. NYS

yes i live in NYS (nassau county to be specific) we still use the mechanical machines. in fact we still had old fashioned sign in cards till the 2000 election. these cards made the sign in books very bulky and heavy.

as far as i know this year and next we will still be using these same machines. with my county in a financial mess (after years of republican mismanagement, finally being corrected by the dems) and the state in trouble as well, i cant see either spending money on new machines, the money isnt there.


peace
david

:hippie:

[gristy]

13. Trouble in NY

as far as i know this year and next we will still be using these same machines. with my county in a financial mess (after years of republican mismanagement, finally being corrected by the dems) and the state in trouble as well, i cant see either spending money on new machines, the money isnt there.

Better make sure. HAVA money is significant, and many states find it hard to turn it down.

Go to http://www.elections.state.ny.us/ and click on "Draft Plan" about half way down the page. In section 1 they say they are replacing all the lever machines.

You(we) may have some trouble. Are they replacing with DRE touchscreen? Or with paper ballots and optical scan?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. NOt gonna happen in NYC due to "full face" requirement

entire ballot incl. all questions and candidates must appear fully in a single format. Elec. voting machines can't do this (although they are trying to figure out a way around it).

[Clete]

9. Hillary Clinton said the same thing, but

she also said that the machines weren't being made anymore.

[sabbat hunter]

14. machines

yes the machines arent being made anymore. but if there is a demand for them, some company somewhere will start to build them again.


peace
david
:hippie:

[TruthIsAll]

15. 60,000 votes were lost with the NYC lever machines. Vote counting is fast

They counted 11 million votes in Canada in less than a few hours.

We don't need no stinkin' machines. And I have programmed mainframes, minis and pcs for thirty years. Election officials are bribed, threatened and lie about certification. They know nothing about the myriad pitfalls. They are naive and ignorant about technology. They have never written a program. They have no clue. They make me sick.

Computers are supposed to simplify our lives, not complicate them. Touch screen computers are a boondoggle, provide no security and are a clear and present danger to democracy. Period.

Let three people in one precinct spend one day every four years counting the votes. I'd rather wait a day for numbers I can believe in, rather than instantaneous fraud.

[Clete]

18. I really am with you.

I did office work manually pre-computer with only the aid of a typewriter and a calculator. I think sometimes we were more efficient. I often thought it would be nice to do entries and be able to dial up the totals right away. I never wanted the entries to come from a distant source where I couldn't look at the source document.

[genius]

10. We also need public ownership of the software.

It will take a miracle for the American people to figure out the identity of the real winner of the next election. We may be in for a totalitarian government absent a revolution.

[Clete]

12. Oh that's already happened.

If you really look objectively at the California recall election, you can see it already happened.

[w4rma]

17. I am 100% for touch screen voting booths with voter-verified paper ballots

I don't care how the ballots are created. I only care that folks can look at them, verify them before putting them into the ballot box and then they are counted with something extremely simple to understand or they are counted manually.

[Skinner]

19. Sorry folks. I'm locking this.

Due to an out-of-control internal brouhaha among the major players on one side of the BBV debate earlier today, I am instituting a brief moratorium on these discussions.

Sorry.

Skinner
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