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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:41 PM
Original message
Who saw The Chris Matthews Show today?
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 08:45 PM by Stephanie
Who were the two female guests? Do you remember one of them saying something about Traitorgate, toward the end, when Matthews asked for predictions? I think the reporter said that she'd been told by someone INSIDE the White House to keep after the Valerie Plame story.

Did anyone see this? I'm fuzzy on exactly what was said. And Matthews site doesn't even have last week's transcript up yet. Thanks in advance!

*edit for typos and clarity
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elfin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, that is what she said eom
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Do you know who she was?
And do you have a clearer recollection of exactly what she said than I do?
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onecitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. Dana something from the Washington Post.........
I think.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Dana Priest. She has the big connection to Wilson and his wife.
The intel community will have its revenge.
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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Could that insider be...
The Leaker??
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It sounds more like it was the "senior admin official" who leaked to WP
last week - the one who gave more details about the two traitors who outed Plame. Whoever spoke to this reporter would be someone who is against the WH coverup of the two traitors identities.

I know other people must have seen this today. Anybody? It was just her final comments, went by very quick.
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I just saw it.
She said she had been approached by a couple of people in the White House who said that they hope that the press doesn't just accept that there is an investigation, etc. They didn't want to be named but are concerned that the story not be allowed to just fade away.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Wow! Don't you find that kind of stunning!
Did you catch her name?

The show repeats at night? Can anyone transcribe just that bit?
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Beautiful
I find it beautiful. Just imagine how upset Dubya will be when he hears about this one. Bad enough his complaints about leaks were leaked, now he's got insiders telling reporters "hey, look! There's something hidden in that closet."
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Exactly! Who WAS that reporter???
She really dropped a bombshell, in a totally offhand way, and I'd like to follow her stories in future. Anyone know who she was?
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Was she blond?
If so, that's Dana Priest, from the Wash. Post. I saw her on there this AM
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think it was the other woman who said it
But I might very well be wrong - did you catch the name of the other woman? Did you hear this comment at the end of the show?
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Just came to me. Rosalind Jordan of NBC.
That's who it was.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thanks!
Of NBC... that's interesting. Have you ever seen her before? She's an NBC reporter, on an NBC chat show, and she drops this little bomb. Coincidence?
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. I've seen her before. That's how I remembered her name.
She just sort of blurted it out.
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. The show repeats at 12:30 AM EDT
on CNBC.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Great! Maybe someone can watch it and get this quote verbatim
And the name of the reporter. I don't have cable.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Damn I don't have a spare tape
*
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. If you could just take notes - it's only a few sentences
Near the end of the program, when he asks everyone for their predictions or something.
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diplomats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. This IS a bombshell of sorts
of course, the press shouldn't have to be pushed to do their jobs.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Interesting that it was a COUPLE of people who approached her
That's more than whoever was talking to the WaPo. Something's happening here.

And if the story is being pushed by people INSIDE the WH then the situation is probably worse than even WE here at DU think, if they are taking that kind of risk. Especially after Dumbo told all the leakers to stop leaking.
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diplomats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I think you're on to something
It sounds like there are WH people who want to see the leakers exposed, even if it means undercutting their own boss. Anyone have a guess who these people are? Could Andrew Card be one of them? That Esquire article from awhile ago said he really does not like Rove's influence over Bush. (BTW, notice how this is happening when Bush is overseas, so these sources could be feeling a little more "liberated.")
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Dead right
This is pure WH in-fighting. Whoever "accidently" leaked the Plame identity to six different reporters (in fairness, it was only five leaks since the two Newsday reporters work as a team), is a bureaucratic enemy of whoever is trying to sic the WaPo reporters onto the leakers.

Because the "WH insider" doesn't seem to trust Ashcroft's underlings to do a full job on outing the leaker, I think there might be two camps here:

The insider camp - Powell, Rumsfeld, and maybe Card. Of the three, I'd put my money on Rumsfeld as the leaker. He's a loose cannon more than a team player.

The leaker camp - Rove, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rice, Perl, and their neocon ilk. I can wish that Rove turns out to be the traitor, but if it is him, I doubt he'd take the fall. That's what they keep "Scooter" around for.

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Why would Rumsfeld be Deep Throat against Cheney/Rove's leakers?
The insider camp has to be Card or someone from State.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. p.s. - Let's have a contest to name the counter-leaker
The person who's telling on the traitors who outed Plame, the person who spoke to the WP.

How about Deep Sh*t?
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NoKingGeorge Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. Two leakers. One deepthroat.
Please refer to TWO leakers. There were TWO people making calls to reporters. That means TWO people who committed TREASON.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I've always thought for a year or so that Card could be a leaker...
n/t
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I've heard that there are a few leakers who have been leaking things
for a while. (That is leakers who have turned against the administration) Or, if you REALLY want to be silly- leakers who are leaking leaks against the leakers.

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skip fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. It has the fingerprints of NEO-CON all over it!
Could a normal conservative (say a George Bush 41 type) hate the neo-cons so much that he or she is hoping they get caught? It would help to discredit the neo-con agenda, would it not?

Esp. if it was Cheney or Lewis (Scooter) Libby.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. My take - power struggle to out the neocons
my guess is that some in the WH see the future direction of things if W isn't weaned from the more extreme forces, and it could likely spell the end of Ws reign. My guess is those pushing it are loyal to W - and inadvertantly are trying to protect him from his advisors and his pliable self.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Not me. I think Bush is part of the decision WITH Rove.
Bush is an old hand at dirty political tricks himself, palling around with with Atwater and Rove since the 70s.

Many forget that Bush was considered a "political strategist" for his father and the RNC.
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JackSwift Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. The supposed Insiders friendly to outing the
traitor are a counter disinformation campaign no Rove's part. The leaker was Rove who ran it past the Shrub first.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Awww! Killjoy! Don't you think there might be some actual human beings
in the WH who are appalled by what's happening and who are leaking to stop the Shrub?

Anyway, if it was Rove, he has no guarantee that someone won't name him. Why on earth would pushing this issue help him?

I think the more likely scenario is posted above - * is out of town and the infighting is cut loose from restraints.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. There's always leakers in every White House
The Bushies have just been better than most about preventing them.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
28. Is anyone watching the repeat? It's on now, CNBC
Let me know if you catch this. I think it's a pretty big deal.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
30. Did anyone tape this?
Edited on Mon Oct-20-03 09:27 AM by Stephanie
We probably won't see a transcript for a few weeks - they still don't have LAST week's transcript posted.

*edit* - The gist of Rosalind Jordan's comment are in Alcuno's post #5. She has been approached by people in the WH who urged her to keep after the Traitorgate story. Remarkable!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
32. monitor this site for transcripts
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Stevendsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
33. I thought it Was Robin Wright
of the LA Times who said insider in the White House urged that this story not die. In any case, I'm done getting any hopes up about this. Can't you all see that this story is being supressed? It gets only the most cursory mentions on the cable "info-tainment" --er news--programs. I'm sorry, but I'm not as optimistic as many of you are about the potential for this to damage Bush. And I'm supremely pissed about that. This was not a leak. It was a felony outing of an undercover CIA officer who worked the WMD beat. My god, if this was the Clinton White House there would be a torch-lit GOP march to the White House. The state-corporate media is covering for these criminals. Don't hold your breath for any bombshells.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Absolutely right but don't lose hope
There is more going on behind the scenes than we know. Wilson, Schumer, others in Congress will not let this die. If more people inside the WH are telling reporters to keep on it, something's going to blow.

The documents requested of the WH should be turned over tomorrow. Expect some kind of news tomorrow or Wednesday. Most likely howls of outrage over what has been redacted and renewed calls for a special prosecutor.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
38. Leaks and the Leaking Leakers Who Leak Them
could it be that someone like Colin Powell decided to be a good American? He was the most reluctant to lie for the administration ("I'm not saying that s**t" re: Yellowcake), but did anyways by direct orders from his commander and chief. His I/P efforts got pushed aside for the road map to nowhere. Maybe he's a the misguided, well-intentioned kid, that realized too late that he was in with the bad crowd. He is sort of the black sheep of the Neocon family.

What is the relationship between Powell and Clark? Are they friendly?

Just reaching here.
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skip fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-03 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
39. Time for another exciting round of Name That Traitor!!
I'm betting on the VP's office. Reasoning:


Reports originally said (erroneously, as it turned out) that Wilson was sent to Niger at the behest of the Vice-President's Office. Who would Novak have called first in those days following Wilson's July 6, 2003 Op-Ed in _The NY Times_? The Office of the Vice-President, naturally.

Immediately after his July 6 op-ed in the _New York Times_, Joseph C. Wilson was thought to have been sent to Niger in February of 2002 at the behest of the Vice President (later vigorously denied by Dick Cheney, September 14 th on Meet the Press, see link #1, below). (This misunderstanding may have arisen from a clumsy reading of Wilson's Op-Ed, in which he wrote that he "was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report." and "The vice president's office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer." See quotations in next paragraph that indicate mistaken in early July that Wilson was sent directly at behest of Cheney.) Robert Novak, _Chicago Sun Times_ columnist and televison commentator, by his own admission "was curious why a high-ranking official in President Bill Clinton's National Security Council was given this assignment" (link #5). Those are the facts. From those facts, can we deduce who Novak would have called first? The Vice-President's office, of course.

Some proof of misconception in second week of July 2003 that VP sent Wilson: Ray McGovern reflects this misconception in a July 14 open memorandum to Bush: "There is just too much evidence that Ambassador Wilson was sent to Niger at the behest of Vice President Cheney's office, and that Wilson's findings were duly reported not only to that office but to others as well." http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4107.htm . As does Will Pitt when he writes on July 11: "Wilson was dispatched in February of 2002 at the behest of Dick Cheney to investigate the veracity of the Niger evidence." http://www.agitprop.org.au/nowar/20030711_pitt_bush_you_are_a_liar.htm . Ian Macpherson writes, similarly, "Now it appears that Wilson was sent to Niger at the behest of none other than Vice President Cheney's department" http://www.netnacs.com/downunder/archive/du-0026.htm . Steve Perry continues the error even at the end of the month: "It was Wilson who traveled to Africa in 2002 at Dick Cheney's behest" http://babelogue.citypages.com:8080/sperry/stories/storyReader$517 .

So . . . Novak would have called Cheney or, more likely, Lewis (Scooter) Libby, Cheney's Chief-of-Staff (or, perhaps a staff member directly below Scooter). To find out "why a high-ranking official in President Bill Clinton's National Security Council was given this assignment," Novak would have gone to the presumptive "assigner."

How would the conversation have gone (using Scooter Libby as the contact)? They would talked about Wilson's editorial, why the State-of-the-Union Speech referred to Nigerian yellow-cake uranium and why Powell didn't mention it at the UN, and how Cheney had never sent Wilson on any mission. Then Scooter explains, telling Novak that Cheney, the previous winter (Feb. 2002) had asked the CIA to look into the reports of uranium sales to Iraq from Niger and that it was the CIA at the VP's behest who had sent Wilson. Then Scooter lets it drop, "Well, did you know Wilson's wife works for the Company? Let's see . . . yeah, right Valerie Plame. Word is that she was the one who had him sent to Niger." Novak's ears perk up (all he hears is "nepotism," missing the real insinuation: that Wilson put his wife up to having him sent because he had an anti-War agenda or because he was anti-administration and wanted to put the breaks on the early momentum toward the Iraqi war). Novak checks spelling ("P-L-A-M-E"), thanks Scooter, hangs up. Checks second source, etc.

It's important to realize the purpose was to discredit Wilson as a maverick-with-an-agenda, getting his wife to send him on a mission the results of which would undercut Bush's designs on Iraq.

Paul Krugman, as he so often does, gets to the marrow: "both the columnist Robert Novak and Time magazine say that administration officials told them that they believed that Mr. Wilson had been chosen through the influence of his wife, whom they identified as a C.I.A. operative."
( http://www.mail-archive.com/marxism@lists.panix.com/msg47823.html ) The purpose, therefore, was NOT revenge, NOR punishment, but to undercut Wilson's credibility. (To be fair, Krugman later, inexplicability concludes: "So why would they do such a thing? Partly, perhaps, to punish Mr. Wilson, but also to send a message.") IN the July 22 Newsday item (see link in Timeline) Wilson also admits to befuddlement: "They were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising," he said. "There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason," he said. "I can't figure out what it could be."

Given the circumstance of the following summer (2003) when everyone was questioning the existence of WMDs, considering that someone who had investigated one of the claims Bush made in his State-of-the-Union Speech just undercut him in a July 6 NY Times op-ed piece, Scooter's plant was artful and effective, despite Novak's dull-witted interpretation (nepotism). It was clever about crushing anyone (Libby is more circumspect and pragmatic than Rove). The purpose was not primarily to inflict revenge upon Wilson, nor was it necessarily a warning to others who might take similar public stands, but to undercut an opponent who had momentarily risen in their midst. Bloodlessly, swiftly.

I know that if the purpose of the leak was revenge or a warning to others, the political damage to the administration would be worse. Since no one is likely to go to jail since bar for conviction under the operant law is rather high, all we can hope for is political damage. But mistaking the motive may well lead us in the wrong direction and allow the entire story to gradually dissipate in the short-shelf life of public attention. As it is, the administration will have to account for a coordinated attempt (2 leakers) to discredit a man who has ably served five administrations and was even labeled "courageous" by George Walker Bush. Perhaps those charged will tell investigators who else was in on the meetings where the strategy to discredit Wilson was hatched. (It was certainly coordinated and continuous, as attested to by the July 17 and 22 similar stories in Time and Newsweek–see timeline, below) Perhaps not.




TIMELINE:


(More detailed and much fuller timelines, distracting for our purpose, can be found at: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/US/uranium030714_timeline.html and http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline )

ca. 2001

Wilson: "I was invited out to meet with a group of people at the CIA who were interested in this subject. None I knew more than casually. They asked me about my understanding of the uranium business and my familiarity with the people in the Niger government at the time. And they asked, 'what would you do?' We gamed it out--what I would be looking for. Nothing was concluded at that time. I told them if they wanted me to go to Niger I would clear my schedule. Then they got back to me and said, 'yes, we want you to go'" (qtd. in link #2).

2002

February: Joseph C. Wilson is sent to Niger to investigate rumors of sales of yellow-cake uranium to Iraq. His trip lasts eight days: "drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people: current government officials, former government officials, people associated with the country's uranium business. It did not take long to conclude that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place" (from NY Times, 6 July 2003, qtd. in http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/cia-gate.htm ).

March 9: "CIA reportedly sends cable that does not name Wilson but says Nigerien officials denied the allegations," according to ABC News: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/US/uranium030714_timeline.html

2003

January 28: George W. Bush's State of the Union Address.

June 12: Walter Pincus reports in the _The Washington Post_ that an unnamed retired diplomat had given the CIA a negative report concerning uranium sales from Niger to Iraq. ( http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Bush-Iraqi-Uranium-Forged12jun03.htm )

July 6: Joseph Wilson publishes his Op-Ed in _The New York Times_ , criticizing the administration for allowing Bush to make the Niger-uranium claim in the State of the Union Address. (Link #4 for the Op-Ed.) Richard Leiby and Walter Pincus write an article discussing Wilson's work in Niger and quoting his unfavorable administration comments: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/135174809_intel06.html

July 13: Robert Novak publishes his column in _The Chicago Sun-Times_ in which Valerie Plame is identified as a CIA agent. Novak writes: "Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me his wife suggested sending Wilson to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him" (qtd. in link #3).

July 17: Time magazine publishes the same basic story, also attributing it to "government officials."

July 22, Newsday also confirms "that Valerie Plame ... works at the agency on weapons of mass destruction issues in an undercover capacity." Link:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/iraq/ny-uscia0722,0,6160519.story?coll=ny-top-headlines

Sept. 14: Dick Cheney on Meet the Press denies knowing Wilson and seemingly goes out of his way to say "I don't know Mr. Wilson. I probably shouldn't judge him. I have no idea wh hired him and it never came..." Russert interposes: "The CIA did." And Cheney responds, "Who in the CIA, I don't know." (Link #3) (Why is Cheney going out of his way to volunteer this information? Wilson seems similarly perplexed; in an interview with Ann Goodman, also in link #3, after Goodman says "He (Cheney) also said that he didn't know who had sent you, raising questions about the whole legitimacy of your mission to Niger," Wilson says, "I heard that. I don't know what the Vice President was trying to get at in that. )

Oct. 1: Robert Novak publishes his column in _The Chicago Sun-Times_ recounting the entire story from his vantage. (Link #5)



* * * * * * Laws * * * * *

1917: Espionage Act (thrice amended since).

1982: The Intelligence Identities and Protection Act

Both are discussed by John Dean at http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030815.html




* * * * * * Links * * * * *


Link #1: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/16/1555209
Link #2: http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=823
Link #3: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/16/1555209
Link #4: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm
or http://truthout.org/docs_03/100203B.shtml
Link #5: http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak01.html



* * * * * Bibliographies * * * * *

http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/cia-gate.htm (a bibliog. of articles criticizing the admin.)
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Awesome analysis
All roads lead to Dick.

I'm not happy about this prediction:

Since no one is likely to go to jail since bar for conviction under the operant law is rather high, all we can hope for is political damage.

I have my heart set on frog-marches and hand cuffs and trials and long sentences.
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