Teaching people to use Condoms in Africa kills them

[CoffeePlease1947]

Many of you seem to think that teaching people to use a condom in Africa is a good idea. Well, in America I agree 100%.

Facts:
Africa has an HIV infection rate of 20-70% (depending on which area).
A condom is only 85-90% effective.
Condoms are less than 50% effective when kept in temperatures over room temperature. Africa is well over 90 degrees in most places on most days.
Someone using a condom that is less than 50% effective in a population with 20-70% HIV has a 10-35% chance of contracting the virus per sexual encounter
Someone that has more than 20 sexual encounters with a random person is more than 90% likely to contract HIV. Over the course of ten years they have a 99% chance of contracting the HIV virus.

Do you think it is ethical to preach you should use a condom and you will not get AIDS is moral or ethical thing to do when such advice leads to the death of 99% of those people within ten years?
Or
Do you think that it is more ethical to tell people that they have a high chance of getting AIDS and to remain monogamous with a partner or have no sex at all?

Second question: Would engage in intercourse using a condom if you knew that there was a 5%-35% chance of getting HIV? Or would you get more worried and concerned and remain monogamous with one person and/or not have intercourse?

Please don't preach about how it is better to use a condom than it isn't. Yes it will slow it down. But in the long run you kill just as many people. If you keeping gambling at a table that pays out 99% you will eventually go broke. In the United States a very tiny fraction of people have HIV so it doesn't not an equal comparison.

Mike

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. Your "facts" are highly suspect

If used properly, why would condoms allow one to contract HIV after 20 sexual encounters or after 100?

The rest kind of falls apart ungloriously after that.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CoffeePlease1947]

10. Those are well know facts try opening a book

Plus, you refuse to accept the fact that no Doctor or statistican would agree.

I am sorry you don't know that putting a condom in 100 degree heat doesn't render a condom ineffective.

I am sorry you don't understand that a casino makes all its' profits with paying back 90% of what it takes in.

The reason is simple. If you have a gun with 10 bullet chambers in it and there are two bullets in it and you hand it to ten people that each put it to their head and pull the trigger, two will be dead.

If you keep putting 2 bullets back in the chamber and everyone in the room does it again and again again eventually everyone will be dead.

Not that hard to figure out. If you don't believe me, try it.

Mike

[La_Serpiente]

11. So what the hell is your solution?

What the hell would you do? Let them die!!!??? Are you saying there is no solution? Enlighten us.

[CoffeePlease1947]

18. The obvious one

If you are going to get AIDS if you have with someone that has sex, either except that you will get AIDS, or don't have sex with someone with one unless you know they are not HIV positive.

Get a partner to get tested and only have sex with them. Or use your hands.

Mike

[shanti]

69. get real!

like that's REALLY going to work!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CoffeePlease1947]

22. Fine is some facts and links for you:

http://www.cleansheets.com/articles/howto_04.04.01.shtml

"extremes of temperature aren't good for any condom, but they're especially bad (particularly heat) for latex condoms."

http://www.summitpost.com/details/Xtreme-Pleasure-Latex-Condom-Discs/28273.html

"Store at Room Temperature."

"Are condoms from vending machines any good?
<snip>
"If the machine is not exposed to extreme temperature and direct sunlight."
and

You should store condoms in a cool, dry place out of direct sunlight, perhaps in a drawer or closet. If you want to keep one with you, put it in a loose pocket, wallet, or purse for no more than a few hours at a time.

"Extreme temperature -- especially heat -- can make latex brittle or gummy (like an old balloon). So don't keep these latex products in a hot place like a glove compartment"

http://www.fda.gov/oashi/aids/condom.html#vend

"With typical use, 14 percent of women relying only on the male condom, and 21 percent relying only on the female condom, will experience unintended pregnancy within one year."

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/factsheet/fscondom.htm

The statitics parts are pretty straight forward. You either understand that something that is 90% effective and is used 100 times will fail 10 times.If you cannot understand that, well I am really sorry, that is so basic I don't know how to make it any easier to understand for you.
I cannot make explain it anymore than I can explain 2+2=4. I cannot explain that math to you over the internet. It is beyond simple.
Mike

[bcbaughn]

24. Where's the proof of the 50% number?

None of those links say that the condoms distibuted in Africa are 50% effective. Come on!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

30. No need to apologize

You can't help being sorry.

As another poster pointed out, your 50% number apparently comes out of thin air.

Also, your "typical use" cite contains some really interesting information in the next sentence that you somehow failed to copy and paste:

"With typical use, 14 percent of women relying only on the male condom, and 21 percent relying only on the female condom, will experience unintended pregnancy within one year. With perfect use (meaning couples make no errors in the way they use the condoms and also use condoms consistently at every act of sexual intercourse), only five percent of women relying on the male condom, and three percent on the female condom, will experience unintended pregnancy within one year.5

By comparison, 85 percent of women relying on no method of contraception will experience pregnancy within one year.5"


There's no empirical data in any of the rest of the stuff you posted, so those pages are irrelevant in terms of this thread, other than the vague, common sense message to keep them out of heat and direct sunlight.


Aside from all of this, let me give you a parallel example:

-Car wrecks kill people.
-Seat belts don't always save lives. Dead people have been unstrapped from seatbelts.
-Therefore, you shouldn't use seatbelts because they'll kill you. If you advocate the use of seatbelts, you just want lots of people to drive.
-The real answer is to never drive. Advocating anything else is wrong.

Idiocy.

[sangh0]

39. That's not the only mistake

While complaining about everyone else's ignorance of statistic, Mike distorts the statistical findings:

The statitics parts are pretty straight forward. You either understand that something that is 90% effective and is used 100 times will fail 10 times.If you cannot understand that, well I am really sorry, that is so basic I don't know how to make it any easier to understand for you.

THAT'S NOT WHAT IT SAYS!!

Your citation doesn't say that condoms fail 10% of the time. It says that over the course of a year, condoms will fail for 10% of the people using them.

IOW, if the frequency of sex is conservatively assumed to be once per week, or 52 times a year, and 100 couples use the condoms, then there are 5200 condom usages, and of those 10 will result in condom failure. The rate of failure in this case is 10 divided by 5200, or 0.0019230769230769230769230769230769 or in percentage terms 0.19%

That's less than 1/5 of one percent, or 1/50 of what Mike said it was

[Clark Can WIN]

66. Love your parallel there

Notice you did not get a response. :thumbsup:

[karlschneider]

71. Wow. No shit, Sherlock. Lock 10 people in a room and EVENTUALLY

they will ALL be dead.

Jesusfuckingchrist, get a grip, man. You have drunk WAY too many Lattes at Starbucks.

[Beaker]

72. one quick but vital question?

what kind of gun has 10 chambers?

automatics have clips, not chambers, and i'm not aware of a 10-shot revolver.

[marley]

2. So maybe

the pope isn't crazy after all ! ( see: "is the pope crazy" thread )

[LeahMira]

5. Either/Or Redux

Come on, Mike! We can do both... or in this case we can do it all.

I do think that condom use helps to prevent the spread of AIDS just as monogamous relationships help to prevent the spread of AIDS and just as abstinence helps to prevent the spread of AIDS.

I also think it's unconscionable to tell people NOT to use condoms because they don't work 100% and/or because they are a form of birth control.

This reminds me of a story. Once a man saw a woman tossing starfish back into the ocean after a storm had washed them up onto the beach. There were hundreds of beached starfish, and the man wondered what difference her meager efforts could possibly make. As the woman placed another starfish back in the water she smiled and told him, "It made a difference for that one."

Think about it, Mike.

[Terran]

6. Facts?

Can you prove these alleged facts? Especially your claim of a 50% failure rate for condoms in temps higher than room temperature? I find that unlikely.

[CoffeePlease1947]

13. Here is a link for you

"Treat unused condoms the way you would a bottle of good wine -- extremes of temperature aren't good for any condom, but they're especially bad (particularly heat) for latex condoms."

http://www.cleansheets.com/articles/howto_04.04.01.shtml

Or you can just look at the back of the Condom Box, it will tell you.

Mike

[sangh0]

42. Misleading link

It does not support your claim to a 50% faialure rate. It says nothing to that effect

[Terran]

62. Er, try again CoffeePlease1947

I don't have a box of condoms in front of me, but your link says nothing of the sort. And it occurs to me that since human body temperature is almost 100 degrees, ALL condoms should have a failure rate of at least 50%, given your theory...and I'm assuming they don't. So unless you have some facts to back up your base assertion, your post is complete BS. Thanks

Dirk

[La_Serpiente]

7. Look

Sex is a primary motivational factor of the Hypothalumus. Not a secondary motivational factor -- a primary motivational factor. Sex is an instinctive behaviour of human beings.

We're trying to decrease the AIDS rate in Africa by using all possible means. Giving them condoms that are somewhat reliable are better than nothing.

However, you are right. Fighting AIDS is not just handing condoms like water from the pipe. We are trying to change the behaviour of human beings.

Although I did say that it was instinctive, there are times when those urgings can be decreased by cognitive thoughts. That's why we must tell them sexual responsibility goes hand in hand with safe sex. It is by far one of the most surefire ways, in my opinion at least, to lower the rate. It is not perfect, but it is a workable model.

We are dealing with a culture totally different than our own. There are also issues of communication in Africa. I believe that if we get the message out, it could dispel many of those myths such as "You can be cured if you have sex with a virgin".

What would you propose?

[bicentennial_baby]

8. Do you have a clue?

Are you at all aware of the societal factors that are at play in Africa? Do you understand the lack of control most African women have in their relationships with their husbands? Monogamy my ass... Maybe instead of preaching about the evils of condoms, you ahould work on dispelling the myth that raping a baby will cure AIDS, eh?

:puke:

[CoffeePlease1947]

12. If they have no control isn't that your problem instead of condoms

I mean if she has zero control how is she going to get him to put a condom on anyway?

Mike

[La_Serpiente]

16. That what I said earlier

You change the behaviour or the male to actually PUT on the Condom. However, the facts you claim, it seems that Africans have no hope for them in the future.

[CoffeePlease1947]

28. Nope, they don't

Condoms don't work in Africa. It is too hot. It says right on the condom package, do not store in hot tempatures. Other than a few places in Africa, it is not cold enough and the heat renders the condom useless.

The only way to change the spread is monomgamy or no partner.

Mike

[sangh0]

45. Bigoted assumption

Africa is not a place of universal and unrelenting heat. Most of Africa experience seasonal changes in weather just like the rest of the world. The exceptions to this is the Sahara and the areas above it.

[CoffeePlease1947]

48. Yeah, funny to assume that the area with largest hottest desert in the

world would be like HOT. Those are the places having huge HIV infection rates.

Mike

[bicentennial_baby]

56. You are dead wrong!

"Those are the places having huge HIV infection rates"

Sorry, but the highest HIV infection rates in Africa are in the South, and the lowest are in the North.

Here's a map of Africa showing HIV rates:



http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/aidsinafrica/aidsinafrica.html

And here's a map, showing where the Sahara is located:



http://www.thesahara.net/mapafrica.htm

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

63. CoffeePlease is busted on the facts again

For someone who has repeatedly condemned others for not listening to the facts, CP1947 has proven himself strangely resistant to facts.

[VermontDem2004]

77. It can get up to 126 in the summer over here

but we do have refrigerators and air conditioning plus, I believe the Sahara desert has a very low population and the higher populated areas are in the tropical areas of africa which is a very moistured climate. I think the point you are making holds no water because the entire continent of africa is not extremelty hot only in the Sahara desert which has a low population which means very low hiv rates.

[Jen72]

9. I am allergic to Latex.

That is also a problem with the idea that Condoms protect from Aids.
I will not have casual sex because I refuse to take the risk but others like me may not take that option.

I think teaching people to use Condoms to prevent pregnancy and the spread of STD's is correct and right, but if you look at the information regarding Condoms as a contraceptive it is less effective then The Pill.

[Mandate My Ass]

15. HAHAHAHAHA

This is a joke, right? Thanks for the best laugh I've ever had on a Monday morning. B-)

[NoMoreRedInk]

17. What are their chances if they DON'T use condoms at all?*****

nm

[Blue_Chill]

19. That's like saying what if we got hit by a smaller nuke?

You still die in the end.

If people really care about Africa then aid must focus on destroying traditions and beliefs that aid the spread of disease. It's not about teaching morality, it's about telling them that if they don't stop rocking the boat, it's going to sink.

[LeahMira]

21. Lotsa luck. NOT.

If people really care about Africa then aid must focus on destroying traditions and beliefs

And with what will those traditions and beliefs be replaced? With OUR traditions and beliefs? It seems to me that OUR traditions and beliefs have led us into a senseless war on Iraq. Among other things.

When people are afraid, they turn to traditions and beliefs no matter how irrational... witness the conservative ultra right Christian fundamentalists in this country.

How about we try to limit the spread of AIDS and meanwhile work on finding a cure? Could we possibly work diligently on finding a cure?

[zanana]

20. The Church spreads its' message.

My nephew and his wife were told this myth recently by a priest in the Catholic church. The priest gave all of the reasons, above, THEN summarized his whole rant with "Abstinence is the answer". Of course, when I struggle with a question of sexual morality, I immediately think of Catholic priests. (sarcasm off) It seems that rather than preach about the evils of homosexuality and premarital sex, they want to just preach against sex altogether.

[bcbaughn]

23. Get Real

Condoms are 100% effective if properly used according to every medical authority I've read. The 90-95% figure includes improper usage. Consumer Reports has tested condoms in the past and found that they are much stronger than required for any normal usage. I'd need to see a link to an authoritative source before I believed that 50% figure. I've never seen it anywhere else, I certainly haven't seen refrigerated trucks delivering condoms to the store, and it sounds pretty self-serving. As others have pointed out, people aren't going to stop having sex - as much as you might wish it - because they always have (yes, even in the 50's), so no matter how effective the condoms end up, it's certainly better than nothing. If abstinence is your solution then I challenge you to show any sizeable population that has been talked into it.

By the way, your probability calculations are wrong. If condom is 95% effective then odds of failure after one use is 1-0.95 or 1 out of 20 as you cite, but two times would be (1 - (0.95)squared) or 9.75%, and for 20 times the odds would be 64.2% (NOT 100%). Also that would be the chance of transmission. On average, it takes much more than one exposure to the virus through sex to get the disease.

[CoffeePlease1947]

25. Your argument points you misunderstanding

First, people are not perfect and WILL and do often misuse them.

Second, they are not using a condom effectivly if they are in Africa. The condom package itself says do store in hot tempatures. It gets to 120 degrees in Africa.

Put simply, Condoms don't work after being in the pocket or in a house in Africa for more than a few hours.

Mike

[bcbaughn]

26. Proof, buddy

Your word is not good enough. Your own source say condoms are good for 5 YEARS if stored properly. To say that a hot day makes them go bad in a few hours requires some PROOF.

[CoffeePlease1947]

32. See post #22 for your links

Bottom line, condoms don't work in 100 degree heat.

Mike

[bcbaughn]

33. Links don't prove it

There is no statement in the cited links that claim a 50% failure rate in condoms used in hot climates.

[CoffeePlease1947]

36. Your right it says 0% effective

I was being generous. Even a leaky balloon has some protection doesn't it?

Mike

[bcbaughn]

37. Quote please!

Doesn't say it anywhere.

[CoffeePlease1947]

44. Keep reading

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

64. Reading doesn't help

if the info isn't there to begin with. Why don't you stop avoiding the questions that are asked with dismissive quips, and back up your claims with some facts?

[Ms. Clio]

74. interesting

Guess nobody in Texas, Arizona, or Nevada should bother with condoms, either, at least not between about May and September.

Who knew???

(what a complete and utter crock)

[Mandate My Ass]

27. I'm cancelling my subscription to Comedy Central

when I can get entertainment this good for free. :yourock:

[bcbaughn]

31. 54 degrees in Botswana right now!

The highest predicted in the next 10 days is 91 degrees, mostly in the 80's for highs.

[CoffeePlease1947]

34. Yes, even colder in South Africa, the problem lies in the North

How hot is in North Africa where the high HIV numbers exist?


Mike

[bcbaughn]

38. 88 in Cairo

By the way, MAJOR problem with HIV in Botswana and South Africa. Mining companies are actually giving retroviral drugs to employees because it's cheaper than all the new people they were having to bring in and train. Try reading the news.

[CoffeePlease1947]

43. That is way to hot

[bcbaughn]

49. Condom stored at 100 degrees indoors OK

http://forums.obgyn.net/womens-health/WHF.0209/2277.html

At Thu, 26 Sep 2002, anonymous wrote: >
>Hi. I have a quick question on condom storage. My boyfriend and I
>recently had intercourse using a condom that had been stored in an
>apartment with no air conditioning. It was kept in a dresser drawer and
>out of direct sunlight. I live in the midwest USA, and temperatures
>outside can reach the 100's. We did not notice any leakage or breaking.
>Do you think the condom was still effective, even after being in a warm
>apartment.
>
>Thanks.

Yes.


--
Alicia M. Lapidus M.D.
Chief of Staff Obstetrics, Hospital Fernández
Assistant Professor, School of Medicine, Barcelo University
Vicepresident of Argentine Society of Hypertension in Pregnancy
Director Latina Obgyn.net- http\latina.obgyn.net\espanol
Buenos Aires
Argentina

[bcbaughn]

35. High of 84, low 75 in Congo yesterday

Ooh, it was that hot yesterday here in Florida. Too bad I left those condoms in the car all afternoon.

[CoffeePlease1947]

41. Yeap, and even hotter in Nothern parts

I hope you don't use the condoms than. Nigeria, Chad, Sudan, even hotter. 85 degrees is NOT room tempature.

Mike

[bcbaughn]

40. 79 in Marrakech (Morocco)

brrrr

[bcbaughn]

46. Use Polyurethane

According to http://www.geocities.com/aidsbowvalley/Condom.html
"Unlike latex condoms, polyurethane does not break down when exposed to heat and light, so the female condom may be stored for up to 5 years." They also make poyurethane condoms for men.

[CoffeePlease1947]

50. Most condoms already are and not you cannot store them in the heat or

direct sunlight.

Remember, many of these people don't have airconditioning. If any of them do at all.

Mike

[bcbaughn]

51. Polyurethane does not break down when exposed to heat or sun

See the citation or try google.

[amazona]

68. it gets to 120 degrees in the U.S.

Yet it is documented that condoms have worked wonders in cutting back the HIV infection rate in the U.S.

120 degrees is a temp. commonly reached in major U.S. cities such as Las Vegas, Nevada and Phoenix, Arizona. Condoms work there just fine. If you were actually a gambler and had a practical grasp of statistics, you might have visited these areas and have first-hand knowledge of this information.

Africa is a big place but just because some areas might reach temperatures approaching those of the U.S. doesn't invalidate the usefulness of condoms.


abstinence fails far more often than any brand of condoms

[karlschneider]

70. You appear to have a maor hardon for Africa. Try a rubber. I hear

they are available in X-tra Small sizes nowadays.

You may not be a total jerkoff but ...well, never mind.

[soleft]

29. My friend went to Africa to educate people on condoms

and this is her response

It is better to encourage condom use because some protection is better than no protection. 

Ideally, distributing or selling condoms should be accompanied by education on how to use (and store) them correctly.  We had condoms in Thailand (as hot as Africa) and unless you take them out of the bag and leave them in the sun to dry they should be fine. The education on to use them properly is key.  And of course, getting tested before having sex to protect your partner/not sleeping with someone unless they agree to testing - not easy things to do when testing isn not readily available.

[soleft]

78. THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WHO TREATED AIDS PATIENTS IN AFRICA

i dunno about the statistical analysis, but one thing is wrong. although
>no-one knows what the risk per encounter of acquiring hiv is, it is
>certainly MUCH less than 15%. probably closer to 1% or less.
>also i dont know if condoms are indeed 50% less effective at high temp. and
>that doesnt mean that this reduces their likelhood of protecting hiv by
>50%...for eg heat could make the condom latex 50% weaker - that means the
>condom is more likely to break maybe, so perhaps it might break 5 times out
>of a 100 instead of 2 times. but if it doesnt break it is possible that it
>is just as effective. in other words the relationship between the "physical
>integrity" of a condom and its actual efficacy might not be a linear one...

[Liberal Veteran]

52. I see one glaring flaw in your temperature theory about condoms.

Given that the human body it self has generates heat beyond room temperature and that friction is likely to send that temperature even higher, it would be foolish to believe that condoms have a 50% failure rate above room temperature.

[WoodrowFan]

54. I was just thinking that

Is'nt it about, oh, typically about 98.6 degrees inside a human body? Damn, that explains why my condoms kept melting when I was younger, my girl friend was too hot....

[WindRavenX]

53. Even IF your numbers are correct..

I believe they are grossly inflated, but in any case, failure to try to alleviate the situation is a great sin. People are going to have unprotected sex, people are going to have sex if they infected with STIs or HIV- these are all things that CANNOT be changed by condom use. But what condom use CAN prevent the spread of HIV- and if this helps even a FEW people, then it is WORTH every last penny.
No matter what you preach, you're right- people are going to have sex. And doing something to cut down on those infected is the right path. It's better than having the Pope preach abstinence. No one will follow it, and you'd be foolish to believe that people will.

[sangh0]

58. His numbers are WRONG

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=560145#560464

[WoodrowFan]

55. WIERD

I can't even BEGIN to grasp the metal gyrations it took to make this post!

"Please don't preach about how it is better to use a condom than it isn't. Yes it will slow it down. But in the long run you kill just as many people."

Well, no it won't. It will kill as many people in the LONG run as not using them will kill in the SHORT run, but over the long run using condoms save more lives than not using them over the long run.

[wuushew]

59. So to control AIDS Bush must sign the Kyoto treaty?

Lower the global temperature and lower the AIDS rate?

also if that is not politically possible the next iceage is due sometime down the road.


The Christian Science Monitor
January 2, 2002


If you're concerned about forecasts of long-term global warming, you might be worried about the wrong thing.

The United States National Academy of Sciences warns that sudden, unexpected climate change—on a scale that could cause widespread drought or plunge Earth into a deep freeze—poses a more immediate danger.

[Liberal Veteran]

60. I don't think I have ever seen such contortions to rationalize.

I don't think for a second that your rationalizations have anything to do with wanting to save lives. To be honest, I believe it has more to do with a desire to save "souls".

You twist the facts and ignore the facts that don't suit your assumptions and conclusions. It is obvious your conclusion is really no different than Ann Coulter's "invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them Christianity" diatribe. This is about finding an excuse, any excuse, to impose your particular brand of morality on a populace and you are rationalizing it through logical fallacies and contortions of facts.

[jwcomer]

61. mistaken on how to use these stats

Mike/CoffeePlease1947,

The problems with statistics is they are very hard to use correctly. Take for instance the failure rates you list in the studies you have pointed to.

Condom use 85-90% effective. This commonly means 85-90% effective during over a period of one year. I.e. a couple uses only condoms for one year. 10-15% will have one or more pregnancies. Now according to Latex Comdoms sex surveys, the typical US couple has sex ~120 per year. So then, we may estimate the effectiveness per coitus at .85^(1/120)~=99.86%.

Now for unprotected sex, transmission of AIDS is something like <1% per coitus for woman to man transimission and considerably higher ~10% for man to woman. Let's use the numbers from the study you site in the advocates for youth site. 2% of couples where one partner had AIDS transmitted AIDS to the other over the course of 2 years while using condoms consistently. So assuming that most of those transmissions were male to female (I'm working towards worst case numbers) then we may take the male to female rate as 4%, worst case. Then (1-.96^(1/240))/(1-.85^(1/120))=12.6% male to female transmission for unprotected sex, in the same ballpark as above. Now suppose that condom effectiveness drops to 25% (well below your <50% criteria) on a per year basis, we find that 1-(1-(1-.5^(1/120))*12.6%)^120=16% transmission of AIDS male to female over a period of one year versus 1-(1-12.6%)^120 ~=100% transmission without condoms over the same year.

I could go a lot further with this analysis, but it would leave people with their eyes glazed over. The primary point I want to make is that people who have studied statistics and take the time to look into the matter may come to different conclusions.

[Runcible Spoon]

67. REPENT SINNER!

Thou shalt not use statistics correctly, science tis the Devil's own hand!

[Runcible Spoon]

65. So I guess you're gonna give us some FLA and Texas

statistics showing that 80+ degree summer temps. result in condom breakdown and subsequent baby booms. You are a real mental giant.

[Isome]

73. Thank GOD for blackcommentator!!

They were one of the first "major" sites that I know of to further publicize the .::Discover Magazine::. article that points out the unwarranted focus on sex & AIDS in Africa. According to the article: "unsafe injections, blood transfusions, and other medical procedures may account for most AIDS transmission in African adults. Their analysis indicates that no more than 35 percent of HIV in that population is spread through sex..."

For years now some of us netizens have actually been following the spread of AIDS in Africa and gave credence to claims that sex isn't the main problem, but abject poverty (that leads to poor medical practices) is. Forget condom use, or the lack thereof, its role is on the periphery of the issue.

[Terran]

75. So now that all of your "facts" have been flushed down the toilet

I have to ask, *why* did you even start this thread? You obviously don't know what you're talking about, you just made it all up in your head. What is your agenda in asserting that condoms = murder? Could it be an antipathy towards birth control...?

:shrug:

[Ms. Clio]

76. Or just a thinly disguised antipathy towards Africans?

They just don't have enough "self-control," right?