Internet Porn

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9349/

For Jonathan—an attractive, Ivy League– educated musician and adjunct professor—it all started a couple of years ago, when he was working as a temp in the sleek offices of a Madison Avenue ad agency. There he was, seated at his desk, half-heartedly going over pitches for new accounts, when a colleague tapped him on the shoulder.

“Hey, man, you gotta check this out.” The co-worker spoke in a whisper.

“What?”

“Just come over here.”

Jonathan—who is 33 and speaks with the hapless charm of a Nick Hornby protagonist—made his way over to the neighboring cubicle, where, on the Mac’s fifteen-inch screen, a pixelated young woman was making love to a machine that resembled a Pilates apparatus. The image, he says, “wasn’t for me,” but it did send an impossible-to-ignore signal to that region of the male brain where curiosity and testosterone intersect. “I was like, Oh, I want to see what’s out there,” he says. “At the time, I barely understood what a ‘link’ was, but it didn’t take too long to figure it all out.”

...

Dr. Ursula Ofman, a Manhattan-based sex therapist, says that she’s seen many young men coming in to chat about I-porn-related issues. “It’s so accessible, and now, with things like streaming video and Webcams, guys are getting sucked into a compulsive behavior,” she says. “What’s most regrettable is that it can really affect relationships with women. I’ve seen some young men lately who can’t get aroused with women but have no problem interacting with the Internet. I think a big danger is that young men who are constantly exposed to these fake, always-willing women start to have unreal expectations from real women, which makes them phobic about relationships.” Also, she surmises that cyberporn may play a role in what she describes as “the truly stunning things women today feel obliged to do sexually with a man—whether it’s something like anal penetration or simply not bothering to please themselves.”

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[thebigidea]

1. oh, I dunno

"the truly stunning things women today feel obliged to do sexually with a man—whether it’s something like anal penetration..."

somehow I'm guessing that internet porn did not start some kind of anal sex revolution. That's kinda been going on for oh, thousands of years.

[DealsGapRider]

87. Gross. No woman better try to stick anything up my ass.

That is one-way traffic.

[Gman]

2. All I know is where porn and prostitution are legal

sex crimes are pretty much non-existent. I see porn as victimless. The women are very well compensated in many cases. If you don't think so, check out the chatrooms on aol or elsewhere. You get bombarded with IM's for some girl's webcam website. Visa, MC, Amex accepted.

Women have control.

[sangh0]

4. Ridiculous

Just because it's female name on the IM or the webcam site, that doesn't mean that it really is a female, and if it is, that doesn't mean the woman is getting the money.

[Rashind]

6. Porn can be victimless...

But it can also have victims. I can't imagine any case where porn is harmful to the participants and doesn't break other laws, though, so outlawing pornography is just redundant and an unecessary infringement on personal freedom.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. "so outlawing pornography is just redundant...."

It's also impossible....

If porn was outlawed only outlaws would have porn....


If you ever overcame the problem of defininig it I don't know how you could ever control it...

[Rashind]

13. I imagine it'd be similar...

to our sophisticated and perfect enforcement of drug laws. Go, drug czar, go!

[Blue_Chill]

14. porn and prostitution are legal sex crimes are pretty much non-existent?

Do you have any numbers to back that up?

[mkregel]

72. too lazy to do the research

But check out Holland and Sweden's sex crime stats. They are low - SIGNIFICANTLY lower than ours.

On the flip side, they do have very high STD rates too...

[Blue_Chill]

124. So you think that has to do with porn and paid sex?

Why wouldn't you assume it's because of their lower stress level and the absence of a fear inducing media machine?

[Guaranteed]

17. Yeah, but is it good for the guys?

That seems to be the issue with the article. And what about the girlfriends of these guys? It's maybe a little bit too effective.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. What Makes You Think Women Don't Dig Porn....

I thought asking women to deny or sublimate their sexual desire was a thing of another era....

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. if women don't dig porn, they are sublimating their sexual desire?

one doesn't seem to follow the other. Also, can we be honest and admit that 99% of porn is by and for men?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Lots of Couples Watch Porn

Sex is like anything else in life... It gets better with instruction and practice....

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. so we can't admit that porn is 99% geared towards men?

Instead, we'll take the exceptions (couples) and ignore the majority cases?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Men Like Porn

There I said it.....

[VelmaD]

31. Women Like Porn...

there, I said it too. ;-)

[Runcible Spoon]

35. according to this website

28% of those visitng internet porn sites are women. This is certainly not an ignorable number. It would certainly be interesting to find figures breaking it down to hetero vs. bi vs. gay/lesbian visitors. As a bi woman, I enjoy porn. I used to be threatened when my boyfriend watched it, but now it is a fun form of foreplay. That said, I would like to see more "romantic" porn that is not so focused on what I consider the mechanical aspects of sex. Also, hetero porn needs better looking men. Also bukaki and cum shots do nothing for me.
http://www.internetfilterreview.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html

[plcdude]

65. I agree

porn is a "conservative's" term that encompasses all forms of erotica in which all expressions are to be considered offensive and dirty. In that way you can have a blanket condemnation of everything that is related to sexualty such as nudity, romance, etc. I found the argumnent to be that young men were substituting erotic literature probably mostly visuals for real physical relationships somewhat naive and over simplified. Young and old men have used erotica for all of known history as stimulative device. It is an argument that is once again based on the external objects being the problem not the individuals themselves. As far as women being forced to do things because of the influence of porn in men's lives well what can I say? I am surprised that a professional woman would say that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. Because the world needs better porn!

www.pornojim.com

Go check it out. I promise. There is no porn on that website.

[TLM]

51. That's a myth....

if all porn was geared toward men, all the men in porn would look like Ron Jermey.


The fact is women dig porn just as much as men, however there is a harsher stigma on women for diging porn than on men. So fewer are willing to admit it.

[Blue_Chill]

125. What?

So you are saying that if all porn was geared towards men we would demand fat ugly men?

WTF? lol

[spindoctor]

46. It's all in the mind

I grew up in the Netherlands, where most things that people make a fuzz about here are legal, or at least tolerated, as long as no harm is done to others.

Like any healthy young teenage boy, I started to develop an interest in porn magazines by the time I was 14 or 15. Legal age for purchasing these things is 16, but....and here is the kicker...I never had the balls to buy one.
It's like buying your first condom. Maybe like having to buy your first tampon, I don't know. If you do have the guts for it, you do it somewhere where you assume nobody knows you.

Me, I took the train to the next city over and then had my friend by them. lol.
I don't believe that going through stacks of pornographic magazines at a young age has had any negative effect on me. It definitely did not leave me with the idea that girls never say no (although I still have to meet the first to say it.....kidding!...kidding!)

Healthy kids know how to distinguish between dreams, wet dreams and reality. It is not the internet that smudges that line. I am not so sure about Ridlin though ;)

[speckledgator]

3. human beings like porn, human beings like drugs....

lets just get over it and be human beings

[maggrwaggr]

5. men & porn = monkeys & cocaine

Men have a really hard time saying no to porn, and yes, internet porn is just so easy, too easy. It's a strange new freedom in life, to see all the porn you want, any time, anywhere you can have your computer.

Just something new we have to deal with as human beings.

Ultimately freedom is a good thing, however. It's important that people deal with these things on an individual level.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. individual level vs. organized porn industry

Sure, billions of dollars are put into producing and advertizing and promoting porn, by organized business, but the only way to deal with it is on an individual level.

NOTE for the knee-jerkers who will say "So why do you want to make porn illegal" - before you say it, realize that I didn't, okay? :)

[foo_bar]

8. have they ever given cocaine to monkeys?

Besides our beloved leader.

[maggrwaggr]

9. funny! But yes, monkeys do it until they die

they just can't stop.

Hm, I've seen people at parties do the same thing. usually they run out before anybody dies, and at 3 a.m. they're on the phone to their dealer.

That's why I just say no to the stuff. I've seen it ruin lives.

[minkyboodle]

109. More info on the Monkey Junkies

Thought you might be interested in this article. Seems social rank has something to do with how monkeys react to cocaine, with the lower ranking ones responding as you described but higher ranking ones responding differently.
http://www.sciencenews.org/20020126/fob5.asp

Scott

[Minstrel Boy]

10. wearing nothing but a tinfoil hat here,

but I've wondered lately how much pornography is actually an off-the-books cottage industry for our pals at the CIA. Great profits to be had, as in the drug economy, and they've had their hands in the narcotics trade for decades.

Also, child porn could make great blackmail fodder. There's evidence the CIA has exploited pedophilia by using call boy rings to ensare personalities it's wanted to control.


Am I hot or not :tinfoilhat: ?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

12. "market value of a naked woman"

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

For two decades, I have watched young women experience the continual “mission creep” of how pornography—and now Internet pornography—has lowered their sense of their own sexual value and their actual sexual value. When I came of age in the seventies, it was still pretty cool to be able to offer a young man the actual presence of a naked, willing young woman. There were more young men who wanted to be with naked women than there were naked women on the market. If there was nothing actively alarming about you, you could get a pretty enthusiastic response by just showing up. Your boyfriend may have seen Playboy, but hey, you could move, you were warm, you were real. Thirty years ago, simple lovemaking was considered erotic in the pornography that entered mainstream consciousness: When Behind the Green Door first opened, clumsy, earnest, missionary-position intercourse was still considered to be a huge turn-on.

Well, I am 40, and mine is the last female generation to experience that sense of sexual confidence and security in what we had to offer. Our younger sisters had to compete with video porn in the eighties and nineties, when intercourse was not hot enough. Now you have to offer—or flirtatiously suggest—the lesbian scene, the ejaculate-in-the-face scene. Being naked is not enough; you have to be buff, be tan with no tan lines, have the surgically hoisted breasts and the Brazilian bikini wax—just like porn stars. (In my gym, the 40-year-old women have adult pubic hair; the twentysomethings have all been trimmed and styled.) Pornography is addictive; the baseline gets ratcheted up. By the new millennium, a vagina—which, by the way, used to have a pretty high “exchange value,” as Marxist economists would say—wasn’t enough; it barely registered on the thrill scale. All mainstream porn—and certainly the Internet—made routine use of all available female orifices.

[bloom]

23. "just like porn stars"

I think that is really sad.


I suppose there are some that see that as a good thing. :eyes:


I enjoy(ed) the natural movement. I wish it had caught on more.
(ie. why subscribe to the "need" for makeup - shaving - "hair-dos" - heels...). Part of the hippy/70's/feminist thing.


I guess the "natural look" is part of certain conservatives philosophy, as well. Part of that not wanting to look like prostitutes, conform to society and all....

[TLM]

59. Oh please... welcome to the world men have lived in for years.

Sorry but I just can’t muster up a lot of pity for the poor girls who can't seem to get men all excited by just showing up and granting him the honor of seeing her naked ass. Is it so horrible that they might actually have to (gasp) try harder to excite HIS fantasies or maybe even face rejection in favor of a BS image that she can never hope to meet?

Welcome to how every guy who isn't the captain of the football team, the millionaire corporate executive, or the gorgeous movie star has been made to feel by women who also expect men to meet impossible standards.

Men want her to have big boobs and a shaved cooter... women want him to drive a sports car and have a big house and fat wallet. In the realm of unreasonable expectations for sexual partners, men have a hell of a long way to go before they eclipse the level of unreasonable expectations women have held men to for centuries.

I think this is a good thing. Let women compete with readily available internet porn, rather than simply being able to use a man’s sexual frustration to manipulate them. It will be a lot harder to use sex as a weapon, if they guy can just pull up to his computer or vcr, wack it, and go to sleep.

[rene moon]

63. **** you!

I will not compete with internet porn. If men want women to be like that in real life, then REAL women are better off being alone.

[TLM]

85. OK, I have no problem with that at all.

Most men have been dealing with being alone because they have not been able to meet the unreasonable expectations of women for a long long time.

That's where the porn industry came from... hard up horny men who had their fantasies and desires completly ignored, who then turned to porn.

Now women are upset that the porn men turned to as a substitute when real women wouldn't give men the time of day, is getting better and better and women can't compete?

BOO FUCKING HOO!

And by the way... I've known many women who not only really enjoy porn, but also enjoy "being like that in real life." I am thrilled to see this shift in focus toward male fantasy and male needs and desires, that have been ignored for so long.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

92. fascinating! porn is a weapon for men to "equalize" sexual relations

against perceived objectification by women (btw TLM, I can empathize with the notion that men must have big wallets to be desirable, I've had those moments of insecurity myself, as I'm sure we all had).

But this is an interesting exchange - it's not about sex, it's about POWER.

[rene moon]

107. Men desires have been ignored for so long?!?!?!?!!!!

WTF? They have not, not at all. Everything has been about men's desire! Women ae still being exploited for men's desire. Yes, there are women who love doing porn movies and good for them. I could really care less. My beef is that women are expected to be like these porn stars who don't even look like that in real life.

You just sound bitter because some women you wanted turned you down.

[mhr]

118. I Think You Hit The Nail On The Head

As a divorced and unemployed male, there is absolutely no interest in me as a partner.

My attitude is fine, I'm probably not missing much.

I think that "some" woman have been treating men badly for a long time.

It is kind of nice to be able to ignore them in return.

Sure costs a lot less money.

[ShimokitaJer]

15. If Internet porn is decreasing men's desire for real women...

then why do I get so many e-mails advising me to increase my penis size?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Cuz The Guys In Porn Have Big Packages

and make "normal" guys feel inadequate....

[Shirley_U_Geste]

26. some do, but most don't

It is my understanding that male pornstars tend to measure in the average range. But the rest of their bodies measure quite small, as do the the female pornstars. So contextualy they seem much better hung than they are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. You Bring Up An Interesting Point....

The seminal poster suggested that porn creates unrealistic expectations of women but it also creates unrealistic expectations of men....

Do a cursory review... The average porn actor, gay or straight is way more buff and endowed than his non porn counterpart....

How many guys look like Peter North ?

[TLM]

61. And more to the point... is north in the movie for men...

of is he in the movies for the women who wtch porn?

Porn guys are, on average, buff and hung... something tells me that's not for the guys watching.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I Saw You Brought Up Ron Jeremy

in a previous post....


He is certainly the exception.....

And he wasn't always a fat pig....

He started his career as a Playgirl model.... but he still had all the body hair....

[TLM]

88. I saw an interview with him where he addressed this point.

He said the reason he has a job in porn, aside from his giant man tool, is that he's not attractive and that men like to see an ugly hairy fay guy getting laid.

My point was that if all pron was aimed at men, guys like Rom would be the only guys in porn... but they are aimed at women too, which is why they have a lot of buff hung shaved guys.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. I Think He Was A School Teacher

before breaking into porn...

I agree with your main point....

[Heddi]

113. yes, he was a special-education teacher

had his masters degree and all that jazz.

[sangh0]

82. Surprisingly, the buff guys ARE for the men

There's a great deal of pandering to the homophobic-to-mask-homo-tendencies crowd in porn. You just have to know how to look for it.

For one thing, there is an obvious hostility to women demonstrated by many of these pornos. There are a number of successful series of porn movies with titles like "Tiny Whores Split by Big Black Cocks" and "Shut Up and Blow Me", etc. Many feature verbal and/or physical abuse of the women.

Real men watch lesbo porn

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. "Real Men watch lesbo porn"

I think you're stretching the point....

Lot's of straight porn is homoerotic or at least partially homoerotic....

For instance the two guys and one girl scenario brings two men closer together(we are taking two inches) than a 100% straight guy would ever want to be.....

but I digress....

[sangh0]

90. Stretching the point? Moi?

It's possible!

But my point stays the same. There's a lot of homoeroticism in heterosexual porn.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

96. "You just have to know how to look for it"

You see what you want to see, sangh0. If you want to believe there are lots of straight men that secretly harbor homoerotic desires, you'll find plenty of "evidence".

I don't buy it though.

Do you think the obvious hostility towards women in some porn is to appeal to homoerotic desires?

[sangh0]

101. Yes and no

Do you think the obvious hostility towards women in some porn is to appeal to homoerotic desires?

In some cases, yes. It's meant to people who have homosexual desires but don't realize it. In other cases, it's meant to appeal to heterosexual men who are hostile towards beautiful females because they won't sleep with them.

[bloom]

114. I would not be surprised if more gay men enjoyed "porn guys" than

heterosexual women.

[populistmom]

16. Like everything good in life

Moderation is the key. Anything can get addictive and out of control if you don't watch yourself.

[Blue_Chill]

19. This is a real problem.

It's not hard for young men to become fixated and have serious social problems in the future. It will be interesting to see all the new problems that spring out of this can o' worms

[Syncronaut Seven]

21. It's the dynamics of addiction

The ability to distinguish between fantasy & reality is important. I think mainstream entertainment is doing more than porn to blurr the lines here. Strangly enough, I'm not very interested in all that airbrushed perfection.

One of the strongest emerging segments of the market is the plain "girl next door" type. Go figure, Who knew women came in so many shapes & sizes? ;)

Harrad.

[MadHound]

27. An interesting thing about porn

It is a major drive factor in the technology sectors. It bootstrapped the video business to unprecedented heights during the eighties-early ninties, and now has become the major driving force behind the internet and subsequent advances. Technologies such as picture comrpession formats, streaming audio and video, while eventually emerging, wouldn't have come about nearly as quickly are completely without the porn market driving them. Though most high tech gurus such as Gates and Jobs are loath to admit this publicly, privately they realize who is really buttering their bread.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. Exactly....

The porn industry is on the cutting edge of net technology and other industries ape them....

[BiggJawn]

32. "Always willing" women ARE fake.

I should know, I've been married twice.

Ask any guy who's been with the same woman more than 2 years.

Yeah, I expect "Truly stunning things" of my women...like an occassional smile or a "Ooooh, that feels GOOD!"

Wanna do away with internet porn? Just make it as difficult to access as real sex. You'll see the interest drop off.

[TLM]

69. Sorry man... you must not be doing it right...

Women are far more sexual than most let on... it s just that letting that side of herself show is very scary. Women only tend to do so if it is a one night stand type thing where they never see the guy again and thus need not worry about the social reaction, or when she is with someone who she trusts 100% won't tell anybody about her bad girl side.

The sad fact is most married couples do not trust each other that much.

[BiggJawn]

123. Say WHAT?

I'll agree that married people don't trust each other that much. After 2 at-bats I understand why.

But I don't quite follow how I can shag someone 20 ways to Sunday if she thinks she's never gonna see me again.

How does that explain how most couples go at it like rabbits for the first year or 2 then the TV gets moved into the bedroom and the next thing you know each is hanging out in chat rooms?

And I forgot to explain that my POV concerns middle-aged women, not 20-something clubbers.

Well, gotta run, need to go download some fantasy now....:7

[Runcible Spoon]

33. Ya know what pisses me off about porn?

As a woman, I am soooo not turned on by any of the greaseballs featured in hetero porn. Gay porn has all the hot guys! NOT FAIR! Sharing means caring!

[Forkboy]

34. Gay people get ripped off on porn

Gay porn is usually priced higher even though the cost is the same as hetero porn to the retailer.

[Runcible Spoon]

37. I'd pay more for hot guys

but that does suck and is a double standard

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Peter North

arguably the most popular hetero porn star got his start in gay porn....

[Runcible Spoon]

38. I heard somewhere that most porn actors

have to start off doing gay porn even if they are straight (men). Hmm, but then didn't Jenna JAmeson decide to do only lesbian porn once she became famous?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Actually Not True....

Peter North was able to break into straight porn but there is still a taboo againt gay porn actors breaking into straight porn which is interesting because alot of porn is two or more guys and one woman which is borderline homoerotic...

Kind of like the Arnold gang bang story....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Susan Faludi Did A New Yorker Piece A While Back On Porn

She makes the argument that porn is one of the few industries where women make more than men... They are the ones with the following and men buy the videos to see them...

[Runcible Spoon]

44. I've heard that too

very interesting, considering the hostility and bias against porn

[BigDaddyLove]

48. The only hostility and bias against porn..........

exists in public, in private there's much less of an aversion to it, as evidenced by the billions and billions of dollars the industry takes in each year.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

49. that's not quite true

Sure, the female performers make more money than the male performers, but most of the money in the industry is made by men. Pretending that porn brings in lots of money for women is just that, pretending. The average pay to a woman in a film is something like $200.

[TLM]

73. That's very untrue.... at least misleading. You're mixing pro and amature

an amature woman just starting will make between 200 and 1000 per shoot. A pro like Jenna Jamason who has name recognition can draw ten times that amount per shoot, and the average movie has about 5 or 6 shoots.

Then the women often make more money by touring the strip club circut where they can pull down a grand a night.


Men, OTOH make a fraction of that and can't really work the strip circut. However men do make more on production and distrobution on average because there are not a lot of porn production companies run by women. But there are some.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. Ah.... Strip Clubs.....

The performers are totally in charge.....

Talk about "objectification"


The guy is an atm with an erection....

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

89. uhh, why seperate "pro" and amateur?

I think that's a false distinction. It seems people like to idealize the industry as a huge money maker for women, when in fact it isn't. For every famous star like Jenna Jameason there are a whole lot more "amatuers" that are NOT raking in big cash.

"However men do make more on production and distribution on average because there are not a lot of porn production companies run by women. But there are some."

Well, that's exactly my point, isn't it?

[phrenzy]

41. Trimmed Pubic Hair

"In my gym, the 40-year-old women have adult pubic hair; the twentysomethings have all been trimmed and styled."

And this is a BAD thing? Please get rid of that 70s bush!!! kak.

[BigDaddyLove]

42. Yeah, it's a bad thing.............

Having sex with a woman with little or no pubic hair is just too much like having sex with a little girl (I'd imagine....no experience with it, don't get the wrong idea); it's odd, I've never understood why it seems like everyone is shaving themselves these days......unless of course men like that 'young look' sort of thing.

[VelmaD]

43. People of both genders shave because...

you can feel a lot more without the hair.

[BigDaddyLove]

45. If you say so............

though I can't see how it would make my sexual experience any better.

[VelmaD]

47. Well, first off...

you don't get hair in your teeth. ;-)

Second, there's a lot more skin-to-skin contact down there and it feels awfully good.

We've had this conversation over in the Lounge a gazillion times I think. My opinion is the same as always - try it and if you don't like it it'll always grow back.

[Runcible Spoon]

50. neatly trimmed is the way to go

shaving SUCKS! It's sooo itchy growing back in, and I don't even want to think about hot wax down in my lady parts

[VelmaD]

53. It doesn't itch...

if you do regular maintenance. The solution to itching is not to let it grow back in.

Maintenance can be fun...especially with a "friend" to help. ;-)

[BigDaddyLove]

52. Skin to skin contact..................

I can understand from a female perspective, though as a male, once my particularly sensitve part gets where it's supposed to be, I don't think having less hair could make the sensation any better.

Though, once again, I could very well be horribly mistaken.

[VelmaD]

55. But all the things leading up to...

it getting where it's "supposed" to be might be better with more skin-to-skin (or skin-to-other body part) contact. ;-)

The guys I know who have done it have liked it for the most part. And I know I've appreciated it on the guys I've been with who shaved.

[phrenzy]

54. Good reasons

The whole "You must like it to look like a little girl" thing is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with that. I guess girls who shave their underarm hair are trying to look like 'little girls' too?

A neatly trimmed area is aesthetically pleasing and a turn on.

Oral sex is much more pleasurable when that area is without hair.

The sensation of skin to skin is much nicer than skin to coarse hair.

I personally am no fan of the totally shaved look - I just don't think it looks nice and is not a turn on for me. I much prefer the 'stripe' or just a triangle - But the 'good part' must be totally shaved otherwise it's hair in teeth time - and that sucks.

BTW - these same rules apply to guys too. Keep your gear CLEAN and TRIMMED!

[VelmaD]

56. It's all a matter of personal preference.

I vastly prefer the way totally bare looks and feels. Frankly, it's easier to maintain than the stripe or triangle. Don't have to worry about getting things even or in a straight line or whatever. :-)

Kinda prefer the bare look on guys too but it certainly isn't a deal-breaker though. It just seems like a common courtesy to your partner to keep things neat. As one of my boyfriends once said "I'd rather not have to hack through the jungle to get to the City of Gold". :-)

[phrenzy]

62. Thank You.

I understand - and know a lot of people that prefer the totally bare look. I can see how maintaining a 'shaped' or 'cropped' hairline in that area is a pain.

In any case, on behalf of pretty much every guy I know - I'd like to thank you for shaving. It is very considerate of you. It is simply a way to enhance the experience. This is NOT about 'unrealistic' expectations of a partner.

Personally, I consider it a matter of courtesy. I do shave and do expect a girlfriend to do the same. I *don't* expect my girlfriend to get implants or spend 5 days a week at the gym and go to a tanning salon.

There is a huge difference between having the courtesy to not having an overgrown muff in your partners face and having to totally change your body.

[VelmaD]

67. Now if we can just get guys...

to embrace "maintenance" too it'll be a happier world all the way around.

I think that's why so many women see it as an "unrealistic expectation" - it's because their guy wants them to do it but isn't willing to keep things neat and trimmed himself.


Oh, and you're entirely welcome but I didn't do it (and keep on doing it) for guys...I do it for me, because I like it. :-)

[TLM]

80. Have you ever tried to shave a scrotum?

It's like trying to juggle jello, but with pain and blood.

Everything is always moving around and changing shape...

[VelmaD]

83. Yes I have actually.

It wasn't easy and the amount of trust involved was enormous. But I managed not to castrate the guy. I know guys who do it regularly and they seem to manage just fine.

I also know someone, who shall remain nameless to preserve our friendship, who poked himself with the scissors trimming that particular area and bled a bit. You have to be careful but that's true shaving any body part.

And guess what? My pertinent parts have lots of nooks and crannies and it ain't easy to shave either. But it's worth it.

[Blue_Chill]

126. Velma is a freak.

Ladies hide your men. :D

[BigDaddyLove]

58. I guess I just disagree.................

Though why women shave their armpits has often puzzled me, the best guess I can come up with is that it's done because Madison Ave. tells them to.......it's 'more feminine' or something.

You give me the impression that you think that the only 'good part' of a woman is the one you referred to......that and any breast implants they might have.

Oh yeah, my 'gear' is fine, thanks.

[phrenzy]

66. Umm no.

I do not think that the only 'good part' of a woman is a shaved cooch.

But you and I part ways on the armpits - I am not a fan of excess body hair on me or my partner.

I like a woman with smooth shaved legs, no armpit hair and a neatly trimmed ... area.

Wild body hair is for hippies. Sorry.

[BigDaddyLove]

71. Ain't nobody say nothin' bout 'wild'.................

Just normal........and I'm not even a hippie.

Do you also like your women bald? I mean, what the Hell you might as well follow it to the end......then again, you couldn't drag them around as easily.

[TLM]

91. In fact, I find a woman with a shaved head...

to be oddly sexy... like the lack of a typicaly female hair style somehow highlights an underlying femininity.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. Who Hijacked This Thread

and turned into a thread about hygiene of the netherparts.....

LOL

[VelmaD]

70. Blame me...

every thread I get in ends up being about sex...wait, this one started out about sex anyway. :shrug:

[TLM]

75. It is not about a young look....

it is about facilitating attention of the oral sort. And news flash… a lot of men in porn do the hairless thing too.

[VelmaD]

76. One reason...

the porn guys do it is because it makes them look bigger. Seriously.

Plus it gives the viewer a better look without hair in the way.

[maxsolomon]

117. the final words on shaving for men:

it makes your testicles very sweaty. pubic hair serves a purpose.

but if you do, for GODS SAKE use clippers, not a razor!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

57. Question: Is it ethical to hire poor women from third world countries for

porn?

There is more than one porn business that sends camera crew to third world countries, and hired poor young women to perform sexual acts on camera for very little money, although comparatively more than most poor young women could make otherwise.

Is taking advantage of that disparity in income ethical?

Obviously, if the living standards of poor women increase, the business would lose profits. Is it ethical for the business to oppose raising living standards in order to maintain their profit level?

[BigDaddyLove]

64. Which Third World countries do you mean?.............

If you're referring to Asiatic countries, I think that may have something to do with the enormous pornographic interest in Asian looking women, or just 'exotic' types in general.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

74. actually I was thinking of Brazil

but I don't think the specific country is the point. The idea is it ethical to take advantage of the disparity in living standards and income, and is it ethical to lobby the government to maintain that disparity?

I'm not talking about sex, I'm talking about power.

[BigDaddyLove]

78. Questions..............

"......is it ethical to take advantage of the disparity in living standards and income, and is it ethical to lobby the government to maintain that disparity?"

It would seem that 'no' would be the obvious answer to both inquiries, unless they're trick questions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. I Worship At The Altar Of Consent

If someone gets involved in porn or prostitution cuz their broke is that really consent?

but if somone takes a dead end job with no benefits cuz their broke is that really consent either?

[BigDaddyLove]

93. Then consent is more or less........

subjective.

There's the consent of "I want to do it" as opposed to the consent of "I have to it".

Going to Brazil and finding dirt poor boys and girls and exploiting them to make a buck is indeed wrong, at least from the outside looking in, but exploitaion ends when those same boys and girls actually want to be involved......I don't believe that everyone involved in pornography is being exploited in a malicious way, though I certainly understand why people think this is so.

[TLM]

95. That's a silly argument though.... because there is always choice

if you are broke, and take any job, then your argument would apply, wouldn;t it? You're doing something because you need money... but what you do is based on choice.

You can do porn or strip and make more money that you would at that dead end job.


I mean ask the average sewage worker if they'd rather do porn for 5 times what they make sloshing around all day in a river of shit, and I bet they'd all say yes.

We seem to only care about body exploitation when it is sexual and the body is female. I mean if that same woman is busting her ass 12 hours a day making dresses or in some factory job... where is the worry about how her body is being exploited?

This is not about exploitation, it is about sex.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

97. is keeping wages down ethical as well?

I guess you are saying that it is ethical to find poor women to use for porn. Is it ethical to lobby the government to keep the living standards down, to keep your supply of low-wage porn actresses? How about bringing in poor foreign women on visas to get the market price down domestically?

It's not about sex, it's about exploitation.

[BigDaddyLove]

99. To be fair......................

The porn industry does have a reputation for it's use and abuse of young women for money and sexual gratification.

I think it comes down to how the women feel themselves about what they're doing.....many woman love doing it, others only do it for the money, and some do it because they took a series of wrong turns and ended up in some fairly dark places. The latter group concerns me as far as exploitation is concerned, because there are some seriously nasty folks out there who live to take advantage of girls in such situations.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. I Posed The Questions........

I don't know what the answer is....

[pdx_prog]

60. My wingnut brother in law

Is constantly "taking herman to the circus" in front of the family computer late at night when everyone else has gone to bed. My sister calls me ranting and raving about it and I just don't get it. He condems anything that he sees to be immoral during the day, but at night downs at least a six pack nightly, does crap like this and then always denies doing it, even though she has watched him do it.

I must be the odd one out here....my wife and I usually get on the computer together maybe once a month, look at porn together and have fun with it. She likes to watch me look at it, and since she had more than a few relationships with women in the past, it sort of excites me to watch her look at it. It is such a pain in the ass anymore to even log on to look at it because of the pop up's, mis representation of the sites, etc....Still we have fun with it now and then.

I can see where it could be highly addictive to some, but I too believe it can be fun in moderation.

BTW....my wife is 42, very nicely trimmed and shaved....and extremely hot. We find ourselves getting excited looking at unshaven, hairy women, or anything that is unusual or out of the ordinary....

I guess the old saying that you always want what you don't have is true...

[mrgorth]

98. As a married man that occassionally looks at porn I have to say

a) My wife and I have a great sex life but every so often I "choose" internet porn. The idea of instantly being able to see 2 hot women licking each other's feet is just too inviting.

b) I like my wife totally shaven and I trim. I'm not going to try and shave my sak.

c) The infiltration of porn into regular society IS a problem, i-porn in particular.

d) I can't believe I just got turned on at a political site!

[VelmaD]

102. back up the truck

Why is ok for you to "choose" internet porn sometimes but "the infiltration of porn into regular society" is not ok?

[sangh0]

103. One problem I have

is the idea of my 6 year old niece receiving emails that promise to enlarge her penis. But seriously....

I don't want her to grow up thinking that the only thing men are interested in is her body parts or her willingness to please. This message is not confined to internet porn, or even porn in general. It permeates popular culture.

[VelmaD]

105. Why on earth...

would a 6 year old have an email address that she could read without her parents present?

You are right about the objectification of women permeating pop culture.

But I have to disagree about porn being bad. I love porn. It's opened up my sex life considerably. Willingness to please is (or should be) a part of any sexual relationship - on both sides. If you aren't trying to please the person you're in bed with then why are you having sex with them? It's supposed to be about everybody feeling good. :-)

[sangh0]

106. I was kidding about that one

I more concerned about the proliferation of sexist imagery and ideas throughout our culture. I don't exclude what's going on on the Internet, but I don't obsess about that aspect either.

I don't think "porn is bad". I happen to like porn. However, it does have it's place, and out in public where anyone, including children, can see it is not the proper place for it.

And there's also nothing wrong with a willingness to please, but I don't think that's my niece's (or any female's) only value. AFAIC, the boy's desire to please my neice is far more important than her desire to please him, and one way he can please her (and the rest of her family) is by not impregnating her until she wants to have a baby.

And another way would be to NOT coerce her into imitating Brittany and Madonna so he can get his menage fantasies stoked.

And most importantly, he can love her for what she is, and not what she can do.

[NoMoreRedInk]

108. If porn gets the credit for the movement away from...

the missionary position as the sole means for sexual gratification, then I am a big fan of porn.

[BigDaddyLove]

111. My guess is that the missionary position...........

is a fairly recent development.

While I have no research or references to back it up, it would seem that early humans probably had sex using the same postions other mammals use; the missionary position sort of connotates romantic love, or western(ish) religious influence, which came later.

[BigDaddyLove]

104. Good........

question.

[mrgorth]

121. I never said it was OK...

I look at it because I am a weak human being that cannot keep himself away from it indefinitely. That said, one of the biggest issues with i-porn is it's accessibility. It wasn't near as pervasive before the web.

[barbaraann]

110. Which would you choose?

a. a two-dimensional heartless and soulless trunk with two protrusions and two orifices, four limbs, and a brainless head with one orifice--existing only to dispense sexual pleasure and be disposed of when used up.

or

b. a human being with a lifetime of experiences, emotions, accomplishments, hopes, and dreams. A being unlike any other in the past, present, or future with the capacity to interest a lover for an entire lifetime. Someone with the potential to share infinite joy, pleasure, comfort, and love--an "ordinary" woman who loves you and excites you.


My husband puts up curtainrods, fixes my car, does yard work, deals with crises in our teenage son's life and all of those thousands of other things that I need help with because I'm better than any picture even at my worst. If I weren't, believe me, he would be gone in a minute and never, ever touch another curtainrod.

[BigDaddyLove]

112. Those two choices...........

don't really leave much of a choice.....not much of a spectrum.

[barbaraann]

115. OK. I guess I did leave out Republican women.

Soulless, heartless, brainless, not satisfying--but human.

[mhr]

119. Have Yet To Meet A Woman That Was Worth It

The first and only wife was a disaster. Quite ungrateful.

What's the old saying: once burned, twice shy.

I would never demand or expect sex from any woman, but it takes a lot to impress me these days.

And its not all physical.

With age and experience comes refinement and dicrimination in tastes.

[barbaraann]

120. Don't give up.

My first marriage didn't work out either; also I dated dozens of guys, had my heart broken, and broke a few hearts myself. I didn't meet my current husband until I was almost past a reasonable childbearing age and if it hadn't been for him I wouldn't have a wonderful son.

I was "burned" a bunch of times. Once a guy even cheated on me on our first date to a group camping event!!!! He later decided he wanted to marry me but he had blown it.

My first husband actually treated me worse than dirt but after the divorce he realized what a mistake he had made he tried to kill himself. (I called the cops and they went and stopped him.)

Believe me, I had to kiss a lot of frogs to find my prince. Last night he surprised me with a copy of Michael Moore's new book. That's the kind of guy I ended up with after all the trouble--he even puts up with me spending far too much time on DU.
:-)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

116. Restrict the supply, increase the value?

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/index1.html

I will never forget a visit I made to Ilana, an old friend who had become an Orthodox Jew in Jerusalem. When I saw her again, she had abandoned her jeans and T-shirts for long skirts and a head scarf. I could not get over it. Ilana has waist-length, wild and curly golden-blonde hair. “Can’t I even see your hair?” I asked, trying to find my old friend in there. “No,” she demurred quietly. “Only my husband,” she said with a calm sexual confidence, “ever gets to see my hair.”

When she showed me her little house in a settlement on a hill, and I saw the bedroom, draped in Middle Eastern embroideries, that she shares only with her husband—the kids are not allowed—the sexual intensity in the air was archaic, overwhelming. It was private. It was a feeling of erotic intensity deeper than any I have ever picked up between secular couples in the liberated West. And I thought: Our husbands see naked women all day—in Times Square if not on the Net. Her husband never even sees another woman’s hair.

She must feel, I thought, so hot.

[leftofthedial]

122. if someone gets sexual satisfaction without breaking the law

by whatever means they wish, why is it my concern.?

[Fescue4u]

127. Only a freeper would oppose porn

There is nothing wrong with a women or mens body and I would only expect rabid freepers to oppose this...no doubt on "moral" grounds.