Respect for the Pope, Thread II (from Cronus' thread)

[WilliamPitt]

Original:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=563011&mesg_id=563011

That thread was getting long, 100+ posts. Cronus, if you object to my starting this, please let me know and I will delete the whole thing.

I'd like to throw my 2 cents in here, re: a comment I made in the original thread. Why respect the pope?

"Because it is courteous. Not to the Pope, but to a lot of Catholics who post here. I, myself, am one. Speaking personally, I would not try to stop anyone from making a critique of Catholic policies; I am a rotten Catholic, myself, who supports birth control and the right to choose and women priests, etc. But I have also been taught and motivated and helped by Catholic priests and nuns my whole life. A number are personal friends. It is not the critiques that make me nuts, it is the spitting hatred and vitriol. Please don't tell me you haven't seen it. Your feelings about the Pope are your own business, and I respect that. Please respect the feelings of people who are Catholics. Don't respect the Pope if you don't want to. But please respect me, and my fellow DU Catholics. It would be appreciated."

The disrespect I am talking about has been all over the place, in comments like these:

---

the pope is an asshole

He is more than an asshole, an antifeminist dickhead. He should never win the nobel peace prize, and good he hasn't.... as his population growth will create more wars, starvation and strife than any single leadership policy... what an ignorant fool.

---

THE POPE IS JUST DEMENTED. NOT CRAZY

---

Not Crazy - Just Evil

---

The Pope is a Molester protector. F*CK HIM !

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=548110

That's a sample from one thread on this topic.

No one is saying the Church and the Pope are above criticism. Anyone who does is goofy. But "asshole," "dickhead," "ignorant fool," "evil," "Molester protector," etc. are not respectful words among people of good conscience.

This cuts both ways, of course.

[ShaneGR]

1. What strikes me is ignoring all of the good

While it's true this pope deserves some criticism for his opposition to condoms and his refusal to admit that women are going to be needed in the priesthood, there is so much good!

He has never started a war. Everywhere he goes, he talks about peace. The guy talks constantly about compassion for the poor, and the vatican has backed that up with manpower and money in some of the poorest countries of the world. Did anyone know that Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world? And a majority of those converts are catholics. And those catholics invariably come from the poorest nations. The churches in those nations routinely provide for medial government services like FOOD and HEALTHCARE.

I guess my point is, I think you're right Will. A lot of the anti-pope or anti-Mother Theresa stuff is just hatred for catholicism, not fair dialogue.

[arcos]

4. reposting..

although I'm sure this thread will get locked, I'll repost my reply to a previous post of yours on the other thread.


"
I know there are positive things...
but I think the negatives outnumber the positives. As a Latin American I can tell you that the influence the Church has in politics is HUGE. For example, in Chile they are currently discussing the LEGALIZATION OF DIVORCE... and yes! the Church is opposed of course.

Something as basic as a divorce... what happens if there's an abusive relationship, or if the couple doesn't get along anymore? They can't get an easy divorce.

Voluntary sterilization was legalized in my country (Costa Rica) a few years ago. Before that time, it was illegal. Well, last week the Catholic Church asked the government to make it illegal again because "it's part of the culture of death". Why is it the Church's business if I want to modify my body to NOT have children?

The Church has opposed several programs of sex ed in schools... once they did it because the sex ed guides included DRAWINGS OF THE HUMAN BODY!

I'm sorry... I can't agree with you. I know the Pope has done good things, but the bad things the Pope and the Church have far outnumber the good ones."

[VaLabor]

5. I posted more on this aspect

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=563601

[arwalden]

15. Why Didn't You Just Post It *HERE*... Now I'm Really Confused...

... trying to follow THREE freakin threads.

<exasperated sigh>

-- Allen

[alcuno]

10. I just don't want to be lumped in with the fundies.

They're the problem, not the Catholics.

[Mairead]

27. "The guy talks constantly about compassion for the poor"

From Dom Hélder Câmara's obituary, written by Beatriz Lecumberri for Agence France Presse:

“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint,” he said once. “When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”

However, his influence began to decline when John Paul II became pope in 1978, and began clamping down on the liberal and often Marxist-influenced teachings of liberation theology.

He retired as bishop in 1985, and was replaced by conservative traditionalist Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, who began to reverse many of Camara's reforms.


This is an example of why I have no respect for Woytila.

[VermontDem2004]

2. kick

send this top of the page.

[Darranar]

3. I agree...

what also bothers me is the way some, who shall go unnamed, seem to enjoy singling out Catholics before all others, as if their leadership were the only ones guilty of being conservative on social issues.

[arcos]

6. No, they are no the only guilty ones...

but they have an influence that NONE OTHER HAS, all over the world, especially in poor countries in Africa and Latin America.

[VermontDem2004]

7. kick

[Clete]

8. Believe it or not whether you like Catholicism or not,

it's necessary force in our world. Now I am not talking about spiritual beliefs here I am talking about the political force of competing Christian religions maintaining a balance of power. If it weren't for the Vatican with the Pope as the head of millions of Catholics, other religions like the fundamental Protestant religions or the Orthodox eastern religions would gain too much power.

Of course these other religions keep the Catholic Church in check also, preventing the excesses of religious power in the Middle Ages that manifested itself in Crusades and Inquisitions. In a larger sense the Pope really represents all Christians in the face of Islam, Judaism and Buddhaism as well as a plethora of other non-Christian religions.

[arwalden]

9. I Get It! If We Killed Off All The Rattlesnakes, The Rats Would Take Over.

It's a balance of nature kind of thing. I remember hearing the Crocodile Hunter (Steve Irwin) talk about it on his show a lot.

-- Allen

Oh! I'm not implying that any one religion is the same a "rattlesnakes" or "rats"... I was just making a nature comparison. So don't even start with me. :hi:

[Clete]

11. I get what you are saying.

Remember that many benign snakes also take care of the mice, rats and other rodents. So it's a mixture all right. :-)

[jafap]

12. unfortunate thing about labels

They are less accurate than decriptions of behaviour. It is too easy to call someone an asshole than to describe what they did or do which makes you think they are an asshole.

The current Pope is sorta like Bush. Many of us would like to see someone more liberal in his position. Also, he has stacked the cardinals the way political parties try to stack the Supreme Court. He engages in policies which cause alot of harm, and he seems either to not understand this, or he does not care.

Still, many Catholics have long histories of voting Democratic, and it does not do any good to spend alot of time bashing the Pope, or bashing religion. There is already some risk of Democrats losing the Catholic vote (and Catholic donations) because of their opposition to abortion. We need to find more common ground, in a common concern about poverty. Make that the main thing, and the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

[ShaneGR]

13. Helping poor vs. Abortion

If you want a catholic vote, talk all day about helping poor people and equal rights. You will get that vote every time.

If you spend your time harping about the pope you will lose that vote 75% of the time.

[Padraig18]

14. There you have it in a nutshell.

Contrary to what many may think, the world DOESN'T revolve around sex and abortion.

[Dookus]

16. no...

but as a gay man and someone who spent years as a clinic escort at various abortion clinics, those issues are important to ME. Furthermore, the right of women to decide whether or not they want to bear (more) children is important to ME.

Do you realize that we could end poverty in ONE generation if we could just convince people to only bear as many children as they could afford to care for a full 18 years? Think about that.

If a candidate for President ran on a platform that was pro-peace, pro-economic justice, but anti-gay, anti-family planning and anti-choice, would the catholics here support him or her?

[WilliamPitt]

18. Definitely not

Most American Catholics are pro-choice, and a goodish number are not any more anti-gay than the average American. That's why no American will be Pope for the next 1,000 years.

"Do you realize that we could end poverty in ONE generation if we could just convince people to only bear as many children as they could afford to care for a full 18 years? Think about that."

You're asking to teach 6 billion people to fuck responsibly. The words "fuck" and "responsibly" don't often show up in the same thought process, unfortunately. P.S. I agree, this would be a worthy achievement.

[Dookus]

20. to be clear...

I don't assert that the pope alone can accomplish that. But he can do more than any other single individual alive today toward that goal.

[arcos]

19. It's easy for you to say it...

I live in Costa Rica and a few months ago an 8 year old girl was raped and got pregnant. Well, common sense says an abortion should take place... but the Catholic Church was the first to say she shouldn't although therapeutic abortion is not illegal here and she would have probably qualified (all other abortions are illegal). The family crossed the border to Nicaragua, where the abortion took place.

It is very easy for you say it, because you live in the US and the Pope's influence is more diluted. Your opinion would be different if you lived in Latin America or Africa.

[dmr]

48. His statement was in response to sgr and the Catholic vote

for an American presidential election, not elsewhere in the world.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. The pope should be respected as a human being who has

always worked for political and religious freedom. He won't compromise on Catholic teachings that he believes are essential. The premise of Christianity is that one must believe in Jesus as saviour and adhere to His teachings in order to have eternal life. It's a person's right to believe this or not, of course, but if you're the head of a Christian Church, you should believe it and your teachings should support it. You shouldn't support people taking actions that endanger the salvation of their souls, even if they don't like what you teach. Jesus didn't back down on the difficult teachings. He chastised people for adultery, he condemned divorce.

The pope is ultimately a religious figure, not a political one. Most if not all of the criticism about Pope John Paul II is actually criticism of teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has always had teachings about marriage and sexuality that have been difficult to live up to. We have Anglican and Episcopal churches today because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce, the pope wouldn't allow it, and Henry declared himself head of the Church of England and granted himself a divorce.

Henry VIII sought a divorce some five hundred years ago, though, and times have changed so the Catholic Church should change, right? Well, let's think about that. Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife of twenty-some years (Catherine of Aragon) in order to marry the twenty-something Anne Boleyn. Have you ever heard of a middle-aged man doing this in modern times --divorcing his wife in order to marry a younger woman? Plus ca change, plus ca meme!

There is not one person here who wants to discuss the pope's policies. None of those who oppose the pope are interested in the origins of Catholic teachings and policies. All the pope bashers want to do is criticize the Catholic Church teachings that he supports, call him names, and blame him for anything any Catholic has ever done wrong in the history of the world.

Furthermore, I don't think it's OK to cheer on anyone's impending death -- not the pope's, not Reagan's, not anyone's. Reagan did a lot of harm as president but I won't rejoice at his death. I won't weep for him because that would be hypocritical, but I won't gloat over his death, either.

At base, this is about being a tolerant and civilized person, as opposed to descending to the lower limits of "discourse" practiced today on talk shows and in other gatherings of the uncivilized. It's simply rude and intolerant to make negative comments about anyone's religion or about any religious leader when the comments are about the religion as much as the person.

[Djinn]

22. don't want to offend but

I have huge problems with the Pope and the Catholic Church (not biased tho feel much the same about any religion) but what I really don't get is how anyone can be "pro-choice catholics" or be Catholic and gay??

isn't it one of the basics of Catholicism that the Pope has a direct line to God and that what he says IS God's word? if you beleive that then you can't be "pro choice" without being "anti god" surely??

How can you be Catholic yet live your life in opposition to some of the most basic tenets of that religion.

:shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

23. Read your Milton

Book III on free will.

[Malva Zebrina]

25. Hmm

Free will ? That, in my interpretation, is a straw man for making excuses when people choose to go against their chosen religion and then feel guilty about their own humaness--ie their "sin" No one really is possessed of "free will" unless they believe in the tenets of Christianity. Other than that, it does not exist as a concept. We all simply have will to do what we think is the best thing to do, or the right thing to do. No one has given or granted us "free will"--that is purely a Christian concept---it does not exist in my lexicon--because I do not subscribe to Christianity or Catholicism. So "free will" is , imo, a made up concept that is relevant only to those who suffer from guilt in going against the tenets of their chosen religion

[WilliamPitt]

26. Again, read your Milton

Free will was the first thing created by God, and the one thing God could not mess with. God watched Satan hurtle towards Eden, and in that all-seeing sight, God knew that the fall of Adam and Eve was coming. God knew it was coming because God had given Adam and Eve free will to make decisions on their own.

God created free will so humanity would choose, or not choose, to come to God. That choice is the center of faith, for what is faith if it is required? Nothing. Free will is the connection between God and humanity, and God made it that way on purpose. So says Milton, anyway. Read Book III of Paradise Lost.

In other words, my own personal relationship with God is based upon my God-given free will. You could not understand that relationship any more than I could understand life on some distant planet. Passing judgments on that relationship is a pretty empty excercise, because you are judging someting about which you know nothing.

[Malva Zebrina]

28. well that is what I said

you must first believe that it was created by a god . It certainly depends upon your faith to believe that and your faith is not the area of contention here.

Your judgement on what I know and do not know is trite, petulant and petty. You have no idea what I know and are making a judgement based upon your own narrow minded prejudices, I suspect. It only serves to strengthen my resolve in answering you, that "free will" is a concept of Christianity and does not apply to others who are not obliged to believe it is something they are "granted" by a god.

I do not believe there is such a concept--I navigate my life, happily, without any concept that I am going about using my "free will" My will is my will, and is not somehting that I think was "given" to me by any god. Therefore, I cannot subscribe to the concept at all. I do not think I am disobeying any god when I make a decision that is against someone else's rules--ie, the Pope's prohibition on birth control. It is not "free will" that I use when I would choose to use birth control to control the size of my family to managaeable proportions to the benefit of all in the family, it is simply my own logical decision and my own solution to solving problemsl. In other words--you must believe in a god in order to subscribe to the concept of "free will" I do not believe in this god and so the concept, for me, does not exist. And I would add, neither does the concept of "sin". These are both concepts that exist and depend upon persons who have a belief in the Christian god.

[WilliamPitt]

34. Wait, whoa, wait

The 'you' I was referring to was a generic 'you, and not you. I apologize for not making that clear.

[Malva Zebrina]

42. Sokay

I am just talking , as you are.

[Malva Zebrina]

49. :-(

My comments are being deleted as in the above no name post and I am sorry that this occurred. I just want to say that I did not use profanity and what I posted was honest and sincere and wihout intent to harm. it was not harmful in any way to any person except that it brought to the forefront the deletions I have observed here lately and I did mention the name of one of the mods who I thought was deleting and locking threads without real reason. Sorry for that. Apparently that is not the proper protocol. I feel very bad about this, and I will not criticize mods anymore nor mention their names. It is not right to do so, I suppose. I apologize if this is not acceptable behavior on DU==but in my own defense, i did not use profanity nor did I intentionaly mean to disparage a particular person or cause them harm. I apologize to the person whose name I mentioned. I think many are getting really nervous and uptight because of the current political situation and some of us just hunker down into behaviors that are throwbacks to our first learned survival techniques. I think that those who do post here frequently can make their own decisions without me posting specifics so I will not do that again. I think I better just read and not post for a few weeks.

[Mandate My Ass]

24. would a tolerant and civilized person

call another one a liar because they posted something unflattering but absolutely truthful about a small but ugly minority within the RCC population? :shrug: Because if they did that, it would be remarkably similar to the uncivilized practices utilized by the television talk shows.

[many a good man]

43. Amen

Very well put, Dem Bones. I agree with you completely.

I disagree with many of the Church's teachings and view a lot of them as unrealistic and harmful. John Paul II has disappointed me in many ways but I have to give him credit in other areas. He has issued official apologies for the Church's past actions, including injustices against Jews, Eastern Orthodox, Galileo, etc. He has spoken out strongly for religious tolerance and on issues of social justice. People need to realize that he is the head of a two thousand year old institution that has always been very slow to change.

While many Catholic teachings seem odd to many people, I think it helps to understand where they are coming from. It often appears that everything short of perfection is a sin in the eyes of the Church. And it is. The original meaning of the word "sin" dates back to the Ancient Greek "to miss the mark." Holiness, perfection, strict adherence to Jesus' teaching: that's the bull's eye; very few of us are able to hit it. That's missing the mark, that's sin. Nobody's perfect, but should all at least try to hit the target.

The Pope's job is to draw the bull's eye on the target for his people. Despite changing social norms, its always in the same place: dead center. Most Catholic priests and lay people are coaches who teach you archery but don't get on you too bad if you're not the best marksman.

Regrettably his tremendous influence leads some Catholics to vote based on issues like condoms and abortion, instead of on the greater teachings of social justice. Like all other Christian sects, its like a cafeteria: people pick and choose what they want. Many Jesuits and Liberation Theologists and others choose to focus on social justice. That's something that can unite all of us.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malva Zebrina]

51. very sorry and I apologize

My comments are being deleted as in the above no name post and I am sorry that this occurred. I just want to say that I did not use profanity and what I posted was honest and sincere and wihout intent to harm. it was not harmful in any way to any person except that it brought to the forefront the deletions I have observed here lately and I did mention the name of one of the mods who I thought was deleting and locking threads without real reason. Sorry for that. Apparently that is not the proper protocol. I feel very bad about this, and I will not criticize mods anymore nor mention their names. It is not right to do so, I suppose. I apologize if this is not acceptable behavior on DU==but in my own defense, i did not use profanity nor did I intentionaly mean to disparage a particular person or cause them harm. I apologize to the person whose name I mentioned. I think many are getting really nervous and uptight because of the current political situation and some of us just hunker down into behaviors that are throwbacks to our first learned survival techniques. I think that those who do post here frequently can make their own decisions without me posting specifics so I will not do that again. I think I better just read and not post for a few weeks.

[DrWeird]

29. Jesus Hallmark Fucking Christ.

Can you people move these pointless fucking discussions to the meeting room? If it's good enough for the Astrology/Skepticism threads than it's good enough for Religion/nonreligion threads too. Because frankly it's the same God damn arguments only with more feeling.

Can you disrespect the pope? Sure, just like you can disrespect Miss Cleo, or Jesus, or David Koresh, or whoever the fuck you want to criticize. Just realize that there are a bunch of people who are going to think you're criticizing them either rightly or wrongly and are going to get either rationally or irrationally upset.

And for those of you who get upset when somebody says the pope is an old pervy bastard, you had better recognize that the Pope is a human being just like Osama bin Laden or Arnold Swartzenegger or Jesus or Mary Poppins and thereby we have a right to criticize him and it doesn't mean we're saying you like to bugger small children. The Lord's name is public domain and if you don't like us taking it in vain, to God-damned bad. I can say that Jesus was a rotten bastard, that doesn't mean I'm a bigot. Just because I don't like Bush doesn't mean I hate americans. I hate americans for entirely different reasons.

And for crying fucking fuck out loud. Grow the fuck up. The both of you.

[Mandate My Ass]

30. I never knew what the "H" stood for

in Jesus H. Christ. That's really good to know after all these years.

[DrWeird]

32. Because God cared enough to send the very best.

you're welcome.

[Mandate My Ass]

39. ROFL

Thank you times two. :D

[Dookus]

33. Don't be silly...

the "H" stands for "harold"

Our father who art in heaven, Harold be thy name.....

[JohnKleeb]

35. Youre both wrong, its Holy, so I was taught

;)

[Dookus]

37. well

*I* was raised in the Haroldist tradition, and you're a heathen-pagan-god-hating-goat-fucker.

We HAVE made some common-ground with the "Howardists" but I still think they're stinky.

:evilgrin:

[Jason600]

50. who shit in your corn flakes????

it's totally ok, just go get another bowl. You also only used about 10 curse words here, but then on your behalf, I didnt count the use of the lords name as one. See, I respect your beliefs!!!!!

[bleedingheart]

31. I am a cafeteria catholic and while I don't agree with the Pope

and the church on all issues I think that criticism should be constructive.....

As you have, I have met many wonderful priests and nuns and some others that were a bit goofy.

However the most wonderful liberal I have met lately has been a labor priest here in Pittsburgh....

[SOteric]

36. Thanks, Will & Cronus. I have a great deal of respect for the pope.

I am a Catholic. I have spent most of my life under the influence of the church; was educated by Jesuits and now in turn teach at a Jesuit school. Most all of those who’ve influenced me were intelligent and compassionate beings with a profound personal faith.

I'm not blind and deaf to the popular issues which lead many to such deep contempt of Catholicism. There are a vast number of us within the church who work for change in some of the less progressive, less Christ-like doctrine. Our success is not aided by close-minded contempt.

This pope has contributed myriad acts of indisputed compassion to humanity. That his compassion is less than perfect in the eyes of some is inevitable, but I find it disconcerting that a group of progressives would engage in such intense contempt.

Most of us agree that Clinton was a good influence on the U.S., however less than perfect.

Many argue that Catholicism is not and cannot be progressive. I disagree. A good analogy would be to point out the government of the U.S. is not particularly progressive just now. In fact, it’s walking briskly toward totalitarianism in some legislation. I ask if that means that U.S. citizens cannot be progressive. It tends to imply without stating it outright that one is either a bad American or a bad progressive. And yet we don’t see it that way; only the Conservative seem to.

I submit that a good progressive is actively involved in trying to change the government to better suit their ideal and not vice versa. I submit that a good progressive Catholic is a follower of Christ and is actively involved in trying to change the doctrine of the church to better suit a progressive ideal (which coincidentally is Christ-like). And I further submit that there are vast hordes of the practising Catholics who do not feel that homosexual intercourse, birth control, women in the priesthood, or a sexually active priesthood is either a wrong thing, or frankly, - any of their business as they’re too busy working on their own personal admission ticket to the confession booth.

With time, the Roman Catholic Doctrine may well make some changes and adjustments to reflect the growing belief within the body of the church that the doctrine is itself, bigoted in these matters. The Church in Rome may well come to see it that way, too. The Church has changed much over the centuries, and will change again.

The Roman Catholic Church has many faults and at this time many of them are mooted about in the court of public opinion I’ve more than a few times been asked why an intelligent woman like myself doesn’t leave the church and all her failings and consider another, -or even Atheism.

The answers for me are clear. Most of us aren‘t deserting the U.S. in haste over the many faults and trying times of this current Administration. I have annoying people with many faults in my family and yet I haven’t disowned them and changed my name. So it is with the church. There are many good people who express thought and opinions I value within the church. The Roman Catholic Doctrine attempts to set a bar, a standard for the body of the church to achieve. Many of us work to see that the bar is more correctly, more fairly placed. What kind of faith turns tail to run just because the going got tough?

[bleedingheart]

38. I think the biggest problem is that the more progressive catholics

have given up on the church when they are needed most. As odd as this sounds, the flavor or makeup of your church has a lot to do with the people who attend. If you go to a Roman Catholic church in a more liberal area...the church volunteers and things they stand for are far more progressive than if you go to a Roman Catholic church in a more conservative area...(although Catholics tend to be more liberal...contrary to what some people think..)

[SOteric]

40. I agree, the tone of the local community

will be reflected in the tone of the local church. I would take that concept to a global level, however. Each country is more conservative in some specific issues, and more progressive in others. Those cultural differences help to set the parameters for the church in each country.

Worldwide, the church is far more liberal, far more progressive than she's given credit for in this country; and she's changing. I cannot help but think those changes need to be influenced by intelligent, compassionate Catholics.

[bleedingheart]

45. part of the reason I started going back to church was to help give

my kids exposure to the church but now I realize that it helps if more people like my husband and I attend....we help to put a more progressive foot forward.

[Dookus]

41. Thank you SOteric...

I've known a number of Jesuits that I truly admire and respect. I wish they had more influence in Rome.

I understand the desire to stay with the church you love, and I have no desire to talk you out of it. However, I will say that, for me, I gave up on the church while still a Christian when they reiterated their opposition to homosexuality years ago.

I am not "intrinsically disordered". I refuse to believe that, and I don't believe the church's view on that issue is likely to change in my lifetime. The republican party will change its position before the church does. I truly believe that.

Abortion rights, family planning, gay rights, women's rights .... all very important issues to me that I think the Church, especially under the current Pope, will not address in meaningful ways. Alas, the current Pope has also pretty much ensured that his successor will be equally conservative on these issues. I think Paul XXIII was the last "liberal" pope we're likely to see in a long time, and I think that's unfortunate, for both the Church AND humanity.

[SOteric]

47. You could be right, Dookus

the church may not change within our lifetimes. I'm willing to accept that I do not know that, however, and it may. Logically I must presume that her change on these issues is dramatically less likely if her adherents are all ultra-conservative posturing dumbfucks.

Sort of the way that the U.S. would have no internal pressure for growth and change if all the liberals move to Canada, France and Germany. We need all the compassionate, intelligent, tough-minded liberals we can get in every stodgy, atavistic institution possible.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

44. After being away from the computer for a few hours and seeing a part two

to this subject which, IMHO, is nothing more than an invitation to flaming and flame baiting. The relationship to politics is flimsy at best. The opportunity for people to get pissed or have thier feelings hurt is very high.

My answer to the question?

It does not matter WHAT my opinion of the Pope is and discussing it in a format such as this would be a waste of time and energy because in matters of religion. this old country boy isn't going to change a single mind on the subject.

[arcos]

46. Again, the Pope is a POLITICAL figure! n/t

[LWolf]

52. A beefed up repeat of my reply to thread 1:

I didn't read far enough ahead to see thread 2.

"Because respect is an attitude I aspire to at all times."

I offer him the same respect I give every living thing. I don't have to like him or agree with him or support him to do so.

I don't have to respect his office, his choices, his policies, his actions, his words...but I do have to respect the man. I have to respect his right to lead his own life, learn is own lessons, and make his own choices to stay true to my own values.

[dmr]

53. Thank you Will

I opened the other thread earlier today and immediately saw the word 'asshole'. I closed the thread figuring the thread would be another flame war.

I grew up in a blue collar Catholic church outside Detroit and taught under the old catechism. I credit the church for developing my liberal beliefs. Even as a small child, I had difficulty adhering to some of the teachings. When I became an adult, I needed to find peace with my own convictions and those of the church. I turned to a priest who sat with me for hours as we discussed what the church taught and what I felt in my heart. I learned that I can disagree with the church; if in my soul, after much searching I arrive at a different conclusion than that of the pope. My priest called it a faithing process, which is between God and myself, not the church.

The Catholics I have known throughout the years, are very liberal, believing most things liberal, including pro-choice, pro-gay rights and so forth.