Why Democrats will Lose.

[BushWhacker]

All this political infighting and hypocrisy we are all presenting... that of being a unified democratic party.. that of wanting to get the job done.. that of understanding and compromise... is shattering our party and giving the Republicans the ammunition they need.

We are focusing so hard on how bad the other Democratic Candidates are that we are loosing the true goal we all share - to disarm George W. Bush. Today I read on Yahoo about the so called "Dean Divers" and it angered me. Not because I may be a supporter of Dean (which it doesn't matter if I am or am not - I will not say if I am or am not) but because it shows the democratic party wallowing through files just to discredit our own people. If we spent as much time digging through Bush's files and preaching how we are going to change what he has done - that would hurt him

I don't remember the exact numbers of the statistics that MSNBC but it was something like 30 some million dollars that George W. has raised for his campaign while we have raised (and this is cumulative, people) 20 some. Don't you think it's time we start knocking George W. down? Let's let the boys pretend they are battling George W. instead of each other.. Imagine what would happen if there was a full on assault by Braun, Sharpton, Gephardt, Lieberman, Dean, Clark... all of them from very different backgrounds from very different ideas.... all UNITED against BUSH. Let's see them attack him on his record rather than attacking gephardt on his or dean on his. Let's see them do what they will do in the real campaign - then let's make our vote at the primaries and caucuses known as we can see who REALLY makes the Repugnicans shake in their boots.

I am a hardcore Democrat. I have been and most likely always will be. I am a strong supporter of our PARTY. The person I will vote for will be decided upon not by how much we debunk each other (and give the repugnicans ammunition for the next election in 2006 against our boys and girls) but for the person who focuses on the job and does it.

Join with me in trying to bring these candidates back to the party we once were and that will be what will terrify the republicans - a unified democratic party focused on one objective.. to oust President Bush.

Thank you,
Tim

[Skittles]

1. (advising a correction)

~thanks~

[BushWhacker]

3. Thanks

Sorry for the typo. What do you think?

[Skittles]

19. I very much agree

I've said it before, I'd vote for a ham sandwich if it was nominated against that illegitimate moronic piece of garbage currently installed in the White House. I am appalled at the intensity with which Dems with "favorite" candidates tear down opponents.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. I briefly flirted with "Ham Sandwich in 2004" due to one of your posts.

Unfortunately, I found that it had corrupt insider trading deals in the works involving Pork Belly futures!

[BushWhacker]

35. Turkey....

Tastes great much more filling... I say vote for turkey and swiss in 2004!

[drdigi420]

53. I agree

and turkey doesnt roll around in it's own feces all day long.

no ham for me.

[Guaranteed]

57. No way...

Turkey flip flops on the issues too much.

[Terwilliger]

2. I appreciate the 'we', but you know...

it's not as if the candidates themselves haven't been very agressive towards each other. That will not change until there's only one Dem standing, so if you're looking forward to civility, you should look at another party.

[BushWhacker]

5. ?

Your post confuses me very much. Are you supporting republicans? What's the deal? Please clarify.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

20. come on

that was unbelievably snotty

[Terwilliger]

23. did you read my post?

was it confusing?

[Skittles]

43. your reply was still snotty

and you know it, Ter. I know how it is, I get the same way but, come on. :)

[drdigi420]

55. It seemed like a perfectly reasonable reaction

to the silly accusation/question

[BushWhacker]

26. Exactly the point I was trying to make.

Thank you for illustrating.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frodo]

4. Don't panic (yet).

That's what you get when people run against one another. You just can't win a primary by saying "Any one of us could be a great President. I just happen to think you should vote for me".

You have to talk about why you are better than your opponents (and like it or not, Bush is not yet the opponent). With nine people on stage, it's always going to be sniping at the frontrunner(s).

And shrub had raised ~$85M by the end of September. I'm sure it's close to $100M by now and will only heat up as we approach 1Q. He also has nothing to spend it on. Our guys have been spending their funds in NH and Iowa.

[BushWhacker]

6. I live in Iowa

I know all about their presence here.. but I don't think that what I was encouraging was saying "any one of us would do a good job" I was saying "Show us why YOU would do a better job than Her or Him... make us SEE how you take on George W.... then we'll see who can actually do it - by doing it."

[Bluzmann57]

21. BTW

For what it's worth, I live in Iowa too. On the "east coast" of Iowa and candidates come into this town often. I met Dean at a bar, Gephardt at a picnic, etc. etc. So all politically savvy Iowans have had a chance to at least hear the candidates. And as other posters have said, don't despair. It's politics as usual. When the time comes, I believe that the Dems will indeed be united against bush.

[BushWhacker]

22. Where abouts?

I'm in Clinton.. maybe we could do lunch sometime?

[Bluzmann57]

34. Sort of a private person

but I live about 40 miles downstream from Clinton. IM me if you're interested.

[HFishbine]

9. Exactly

And I'd rather the candidates be fully and thoroughly vetted NOW, rather than find out next October that, for the sake of "unity" we got behind the wrong guy without doing our homework.

If there is something to be found, wouldn't you rather that it be discovered now, while we still have other candidates to choose from, rather than after the nominee has been chosen?

[Rainbowreflect]

24. So true.

How soon we forget how bush & son treated anyone repub running against them. They make the dems look like choir boys.

[BushWhacker]

29. Imagine

Imagine if we didn't do the same things the republicans would - don't you think we'd get a stronger foothold in the hearts of America?

[charlie]

51. Only party partisans follow the primary battles

It's at the convention that the nominee will be introduced to America. Believe me, even old stalwarts like Kerry and Gephardt will be a fresh face to the bulk of the country. I wouldn't worry much about the internecine crapfest, most people are and will remain unaware of it.

[WilliamPitt]

7. DU is not America

I've been 40,000 miles across this country since July, and let me tell you, the people out there in the real world are way way way way way way way way way way way way way more united and together than what we dee here in General Discussion on DU. The cats are herding themselves. Don't you dare allow yourself to be discouraged by what you see here. Out in the flesh world, things are far more unified. Bank it.

[BushWhacker]

11. I know.

I've volunteered for many different campaigns as I feel the best way to know if I want to support a candidate is to participate in their campaigns. I have seen the people be unified under the same ideas that I have presented - but when it comes to the individual campaigns it comes down to "who looks most presidential" or "why so and so has a bigger unit than so and so.." it's very childish.. Americans are smart people and see through it... That's where the danger for us is. And I want an autographed copy of your books :)

[RichM]

31. OTOH, it can't be denied that there's an ongoing struggle by the Dem

Party to re-establish a clear sense of identity. While it's true that DU is not America, there is some connection between the ferocity here, & the larger sense that Democrats no longer share a clear understanding of what their party is really about.

One of the problems with the ABB slogan is that it tries to paper over this fundamental schism. It's easy enough to say, Anyone But Bush, and have everyone cheer. But what, after that? A party united behind the philosophy of a Kucinich is hardly the same thing as a party united behind one of the "top tier centrists."

One can't pretend there's not a struggle for the soul of the party going on. It's natural & inevitable that such a schism would exist, at a time like this, when American democracy is at the brink, the New Deal coalition is dead, & the Dem Party has been battered to such a bloody pulp that it's routinely mocked in the major media.

[BushWhacker]

32. You hit the nail on the head. (n/t)

[diplomats]

68. Thanks for that encouraging post, Will

:)

[GainesT1958]

8. Clinton had several challengers in 1992, and it got pretty un-civil...

But he still got people (well, MOST people! :eyes: )back on board by the convention, and he won. It can--and will--happen next year, once people realize again the impetus of reversing the shambles which Dub & CO. have made of this country.

B-)

[BushWhacker]

13. Let's sure hope so! (N/T)

[Bluzmann57]

10. Don't you think that once the dust settles

and the Democratic nominee is determined, that the other candidates will close ranks and unite to take down bush? In 2000, McCain and bush went after each other pretty hard and yet they still gained control of the White House(I refuse to say they won).Judging by people I have come in contact with, bush may be in trouble if the next election was held today, and is honest. So, I honestly think that when all is said and done, the Dems will most certainly have a United front against bush and hopefully, trounce him.

[BushWhacker]

15. We'll see.

I don't know if we will - there are some VERY inflamatory things being thrown out there right now - none of the candidates even /like/ each other - if they do it's a front.

[oc2002]

12. I agree that united we stand, divided we fail again to the Bush Cartel.

I have been watching the debates and the campaigns, it has been mostly focused on attacking the Bush administration. However, some candidates have a tendancy to atack each other, this serves no one but the Republicans.

I think the DNC should reformat the whole process so there are fewer primaries, and we pick someone quicker so there will be less bleeding in the primaries. So by the time of the real election, we do not have a candidate that is mortaly wounded already with enemies inside his own party.

[BushWhacker]

16. Well Spoken!

I couldn't agree more.

[dsc]

14. I think many people are fundamentally misuderstanding your post

I don't think it is about DU but about the operatives searching Dean's records. And yes, it would be nice if they tried digging up dirt on Bush instead of each other.

[BushWhacker]

17. It isn't just Dean.

They are doing it to each other - Dean does it as much to gephardt as he does to dean.. it's dirty and the focus is on the wrong thing.. let's do what's best for the nation not what's best for ourselves.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

25. Believe it or not...

Repukes can read. Really. I know it comes as quite a shock to many here, but it is true! TRUE, I TELL YOU, TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUE!!!

Now, have any of you pit-fighters ever considered, for one skinny minute, that you might, just maybe, just possibly, be giving squawking points to the repukes for use in the general election?

Just a random thought...

[BushWhacker]

27. Very good insight.

As to my post, I hope they do read it.. I hope they do use it. I hope that it filters to the highest in command so that SOMEONE WOULD LISTEN.

[Flying_Pig]

28. B. S. It's part of the political process. I sometimes wonder about

the age and experience of some of the posters here. Primaries are where much political blood is spilled. It's always been that way, and it always will. What counts, is that we all rally behind the eventual nominee. Threads like this, supposedly foretelling the demise of the Party, because not everyone is in lockstep with the thread writer's rather narrow thinking on the matter of politics, is bullshit. 100% bullshit.

Do us all a favor, and save your negative crap for when it's deserved. Now, if it happens that we Dems don't come together behind the nominee, than you've got a case. Right now though, all you're doing is whining, and throwing cold water on a hot primary season.

:grr:

[BushWhacker]

30. Grow up.

I was stating how things /should/ be.. not how they are. I am well aware of how things ARE. I have always been VERY politically active. I caucused for Al Gore. I have been enriched in politics for a very very long time. The fact that you are flaming me goes to show that you thrive off of anger and bitterness and thus you are excited about how things are being run right now -

IF WE WERE ALL COMPLACENT WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE - WE WOULD BE REPUBLICANS.

[NY Yankee Fan]

36. How to win.

Ask the average taxpaying citizen what he thinks of Democrats and you will probably get the following:

1. In favor of gun control;
2. In favor of illegal aliens;
3. In favor of gay marriage;
4. In favor of being weak on terrorism;
5. In favor of spending taxpayer dollars on old expensive programs.

This is a recipe for defeat every single time! Need proof? Look at the last mid term election.

[BushWhacker]

37. Head of State

That was a great movie and should be watched by Every Democrat - that's exactly what we need heh Chris Rock in 04

[BurtWorm]

38. Average "taxpaying" citizen

Is that some kind of code?

[BushWhacker]

39. Yeah it means

Democrats. LOL Republicans don't pay taxes - remember?

[Flying_Pig]

40. Listen child, I was most likely involved in politics before you were

a twinkle in anyone's eyes.

And given the tone and subject header of your thread, it appears YOU are the one with an anger and bitterness problem. As for me, I am simply sick of whiners. If you indeed had all of the experience in politics you profess, then you would understand the process. It is apparent to me, you do not.

[BushWhacker]

42. I never said

that I didn't understand it. It appears to me that you read only what you choose to read. I am done conversing with you as you will manipulate my words to your desires to make yourself feel better about yourself. Time to grow up, honestly. I'm not angry or bitter - in fact I am in a very good mood.

[Sideways]

59. Time To Grow Up Back At You....Are You Taking Your Toys Home Now?

Flying Pig is not manipulating your words he is just clarifying them.

Can't stand the heat? You are acting like the child.

And exactly how old are you dear friend? When Pig says he has over 30+ years in politics and yet you pooh pooh him I would be willing to bet you aren't even as old as FPs street trodding activist shoes.

For you to tell someone to grow up is just a fucking farce.

Shameful and hopelessly immature. Bleech.

[roughsatori]

63. Your posts are the most negative posts in this thread

It is ironic that you start another: "Dems Let's stop attacking each other" topic, then you reply in a negative fashion to others. It is bizarre. (In one of your first responses you ask if someone is working for the Republicans).

Sanctimonious people always become angry when they can't control others. This thread is a text-book example.

[Sideways]

65. Narcissists Just Can't Help Themselves

Sanctimonious folks the lot. And good Gawd are they fucking tedious and tiresome. And can I add really fucking boring.

[rucky]

41. Trivia Question: Who First Brought Up Willie Horton?

Anybody know? Anyone? It's relevent to this discussion...

[Bluzmann57]

45. Very good question

Pretty sure the answer is Atwater, the late head of the repubs and one of the nastiest political operatives who ever lived. It was used as a disparaging tactic against Dukakis in'88, I believe.

[charlie]

54. Gore

But he never mentioned the name Willie Horton.

[rucky]

58. Ding Ding Ding - It Was Gore

Yes - you're right, he didn't mention Horton specifically, but he lambasted Dukakis' furlough system, and it did perk up the ears of Bush sr. campaign strategists.

Gore dropped out of the race a couple weeks later, so what did that accomplish?

[charlie]

64. Yeah, the Repubs like to play it up

like Willie dropped into their laps out of the clear blue sky, courtesy of Al Gore. While I can accept that Gore may have tipped them to a potentially hot issue, I don't buy for a minute that Atwater's oppo crew wouldn't have found it themselves in short order. Lobbing charges of being "soft on crime" at a Democrat is a favorite Repub pasttime, you can bet they were already digging deep and hard into Dukakis' management of the courts and prisons.

Also, Dukakis and Estrich were idiots for being blindsided with Horton. He fumbled his response to Gore badly, they should've known that it would come flying back from the GOP.

Our candidates can't refrain from criticizing each other's records out of fear that Bush will crush the nominee with whatever they bring up. That's foolish. If a candidate is vulnerable on an issue, it needs to come out now, so he can either be weeded out or be prepared for the Rove onslaught.

[xultar]

44. Couldn't have said it better....

Thanks SOOOO much, I have been trying and trying and trying...to get that message out.
-Rant Start-
Faux is running stories about the in fighting in Clark's campaign. This stemmed from one A-Hole who felt it necessary to air his stanky drawers out on the web. All this in fighting strenfthens the repugnicans. We'll never get anywhere if we keep tearing each other apart on non-issue focused CRAP.
Let's discuss the issues people! Which candidate has the best healthcare platform and why. Which candidate has the correct stance on foregin policy and why.
If we let them know what is important to us and what resonates with us then maybe someone will read it and apply it to their platform. That's how you get a winner. Not my candidate is better than yours because yours looks goofy. Oh here he said something good about Bush. Here he liked about his states healthcare plan.
Let the repugnicans dig that crap up.
-Rant over-

[BushWhacker]

46. Bravo.

Good work. I appreciate the comments!

[unfrigginreal]

47. We ain't gonna lose...

and we probably won't be civil until a nominee has been decided. It's called the Primary Season, and it happens on every Presidential Election cycle.

How do you expect other candidates and their supporters to make inroads on the frontrunners if they don't highlight( and usually exaggerate) the differences? Most of the "attacks" right now are against two candidates - Dean and Clark. Why those two? Because they're leading the pack.

Methinks that you're overdramatizing the negative impact that these "attacks" will have when there is only one Democratic candidate on the ballot against Bush.

[BushWhacker]

49. I find it distasteful

It does not need to happen this way... it really doesn't. Why are dean and Clark up at the fore right now? Because they have slammed other candidates - what is their excuse? Come on - we don't have to do this - Democrats are better than that.. I know it's how it always happens - but slaverly is how things always happened too and thanks to us yanks we prevailed... why? because we challeneged it instead of living in a quagmire of complacencey

[unfrigginreal]

52. When you can prove that the majority is as idealistic as you are...

then I'll change my opinion. For now, I'll back the Pit Bull over the lap dog every time.

[Sideways]

62. WTF Does This Mean And How Is it Pertinent To This Debate

"I know it's how it always happens - but slaverly is how things always happened too and thanks to us yanks we prevailed... why?"

This is astoundingly bizarre and quite off the point.

"but slaverly is how things always happened too and thanks to us yanks we prevailed"

Please clarify this point and exactly how it is germane to our discussion.

You are really all over the page here and quite tiresome.

:wtf: are you blathering about?

[BushWhacker]

66. It is pertinent

You see - it challenges complacency. Had we been complacent to let slavery exist, it would still exist - but the northerners, the idealists, had the belief that they could change an institution. This is the point I am making.

[BigMacAttack]

48. Now is the time for competition and criticism.

This will help produce the best candidate.

For instance you say,

'but because it shows the democratic party wallowing through files just to discredit our own people.'

You seem to think this is bad. I strongly disagree. It is better if what is in those files comes out now. Better that a candidate is discredited now. Better that a candidate improves their defenses now.

It is certain that a good number of smart Republicans are and will be going through those files. It is much better if any candidate has already been prepared.

BMA

[BushWhacker]

50. Idea.

How about if that is the only reason we are doing it... why don't each candidate just bring up all their darkest secrets without people digging into it.. Saves a lot of energy eh? I mean hell, of course they'd do that because it'll come out anyways.

[BigMacAttack]

60. It isn't just about that.

It is also about the candidates refining the presentation of their ideas and maybe even refining their ideas.

Nice idea but I don't think we can so easily change human nature.

BMA

[mhr]

56. Hi Tim, Good Points, See My Email To Mike Malloy Below

DUers are not necessarily the only part of the problem.

However, we could help force the issue by focusing our criticism more judiciously.

------
Hi Mike,

In listening to the show this evening I hear all of the repeated wishful
thinking that democrats desperately cling to.

Democrats want to believe so badly that things can change they act like
vultures arguing over table scraps.

There are two differences between the republicans and democrats - fire
in the belly and high-level organization.

The democrats do not show the zeal and willingness to win, and the
democrats do not speak with one voice.

When we see rabid attack dog democrats sent out to eviscerate the
president daily then we will know that there is some fire.

When we see democratic talking points disseminated every day then we
will know that the party is organized and focused.

Sadly, when we have only Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy willing to speak
out, this is not sufficient nor disciplined enough to make a dent.

When all Senators and Representatives speak with one voice publicly we
will finally begin to see an effective party with effective results.

[GinaMaria]

61. a slightly paranoid thought

I wonder if some of the dirty tricks and ugliness can be traced back to KKKarl? Never underestimate their desire to control the outcome of our primaries.

Peace,
Gina

[lostnfound]

69. TWO Objectives - Oust Bush AND Democratic Congress

Our new Democratic president will NEED a better congress than what we have now.