The First Church of the Couple of Holes......

[ParanoidPat]

.....I'm starting a new church. Anyone is welcome to join and you don't even have to believe there's a 'God'. The basic idea of this church is really very simple. As a good friend Stephen G. used to point out, if you took all of the worlds religions and placed all of their beliefs as separate holes on computer punch cards, then stack them up and hold the stack up to the light, a couple of holes go clear through the deck. Don't kill each other. Take care of one another. That's it, nothing else matters, the rest is optional. This is all you have to believe to join.
End of sermon, now go in peace and be good to each other.

Peace O8)

[RobertSeattle]

1. Thanks Reverend Pat!

I've always thought the best religon would be one where it's entire "bible" could be put on a single piece of paper (one-sided too!).

PS - You are dating ourself with the "Computer Punch Card" reference...

[arwalden]

2. The "Eternal Reward" or "Afterlife" Common-Hole...

... might be problematic.

But aside from that, I've always liked the way you think... messages like this one of yours are the reason why.

-- Allen

[IrateCitizen]

4. The "afterlife" hole is not a common one, Allen

Judaism and Buddhism, IIRC, don't really believe in an afterlife of eternal reward. And Hindus believe in reincarnation.

I think the afterlife of "eternal reward" is pretty much confined to Christianity and Islam.

[shrike]

9. Most of the world's cultures have believed that the spirit survives death

Even if a "heaven" wasn't involved. Indigenous tribes all over the world have always been more concerned with spirits than a creator, whom most regarded as remote and uninterested in human affairs. Then there were the Egyptians -- there was a reason they buried all that loot with the Pharaohs.

[IrateCitizen]

14. But there's a difference with Christianity and Islam

Other religions see the continuation of the spirit after death as simply a representation of the interconnectedness of all living things. For example, what does it behoove a devout Hindu to pillage the earth for immediate gratification if, in his/her next life, he/she could be a bird or a bug even more dependent on the earth to survive. As for the mysticism practiced by indigenous peoples (like the Native Americans), it was tied up in the realization that they were simply PART of the earth itself.

IMHO, an extremely accurate view.

Christianity and Islam, however, view the spirit as an individual entity. Your spirit is YOU -- it is not re-incorporated into some other form upon death. It is a very individualistic, compartmentalized view of life and death, and one that really bears little resemblance to many other religions in this respect, outside of the general belief of a life beyond physical manifestation.

[arwalden]

15. I'm pretty sure you know what I was getting at.

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe that there are any religions that believe that death is final. Lights out. Game over. End of story. Period. The end. (So to speak.)

Whether it's a 'soul' that's recycled, or a progression of plateaus, or a wheel and hub, or a final eternal reward... they all have the common thread of something *else* beyond this existence.

That's all I'm pointing out.

-- Allen

[ParanoidPat]

18. Allen, that's where those 'holes' don't quite make it.....

....all the way through the deck. The differences in the beliefs of just what an 'afterlife' is. Take your duck for instance, every time I see it I can't help but smile. When I walk out of the room and my wife sees me smiling, she smiles. When my children walk in and see my wife smiling, they smile. I guess you could say the smile you put on my face had an afterlife passing from one face to another even though those now wearing it never saw your duck to begin with. :)
Now that version of an afterlife is far different than one of hellfire and brimstone. The hole representing my description of afterlife would be somewhere out in left field while the other hole would be a little further to the right. :evilgrin:

[arwalden]

22. Hmmm...

Okay. I see what you're saying. --- It appears that you are taking a low-level and detailed inspection of the different afterlife concepts and assigning different punch-hole locations. That makes sense.

My original take on the whole concept of punch-card religion was more of a high-level one where the broad concepts that define each religion would be given a hole. And I saw a common hole from that perspective.

-- Allen

The duck creates a chain of smiles? What a nice thing to say!

[ParanoidPat]

24. My wife just called it....

....a 'Daisy' chain ala Donald Duck's girlfriend! :)
And so the eternal smile lives on. :evilgrin:

[Drifter]

3. Speaking of holes ...

you could name the church

the "First Universal Church of Knowledge"

You get a catchy acromyn out of it anyways.
Do you need a Juggler? Might be a good way to liven up the sermons.

Cheers
Drifter

[ParanoidPat]

6. LOL!

Thanks for the laugh he says wiping coffee from his monitor! :evilgrin:
(I have to learn to swallow BEFORE hitting refresh!)

[IrateCitizen]

5. Hmmm... sounds a lot like Unitarian Universalism!

I should know, because I AM a UU!

Here's the closest thing we come to a creed:

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote

o The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
o Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
o Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
o A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
o The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
o The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
o Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

o Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
o Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
o Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
o Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
o Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
o Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another our mutual trust and support.

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html


So, obviously I agree with you 100%! And I absolutely love the "punch card" analogy!

[ParanoidPat]

7. The punch card anaolgy has always been a favorite of mine.....

.....even if I don't always see the light. :spank:

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. Your religious Denomination would be 'Common', then? (n/t)

[Gin]

11. Treat others the way you would like to be treated...I like that...

gin

[ParanoidPat]

27. Unless of course you're a......

......sadomasochist! :spank: :evilgrin:
You may have to ask first! :)

[Clete]

10. We also need holidays.

I suggest the old ones that correspond with the seasons and the harvest. Maybe the young people wouldn't mind a fertility rite or two. :evilgrin:

[ParanoidPat]

12. That's the best part.....

......in this church EVERY day's a holiday celebrated with fertility rites! ;-) (It's the only allowable way to 'screw' each other.)
Every interaction with another person should be a celebration of our beliefs. :)

[Malva Zebrina]

13. Sounds like humanism

to me. :-) People do have a lot in common, more so than they realize, no matter what the belief , god or non god belief there are commonalities --to me they are simply naturally evolved properties of human beings--most of which probably evolved out of trying to survive as a group as humans emerged on the evolution scene---One must share food if one wants to be fed with the shared food of the next hunter therby doubling your chances for nourishment, and you do not steal his weapon because you need him to have it for your own safety and survival.

[ParanoidPat]

16. Call it what you want but....

....don't try to define it with words for ours is a church of actions! Words get in the way. They lose something in translation. The meaning of words can and does change over time. They can, and indeed do, get interpreted differently by different people but a smile or helping hand is timeless and has the same meaning the world over. :)

[Malva Zebrina]

33. I know, I know

But some of us, although we love our fellow human beings in the most altruistic of ways, think that a personal reflective consideration and an inner directed philosophy is the base of all that is beauty and truth and all that is necessary in this short life--That is not to say we do not help our fellows man-certainly we do not ignore him in his pleas and in his need-we do so for perhaps selfish reasons at times, but, if you cannot reflect and consider or if you cannot seek for the inner message, then all the actions that are in your repetoire are merely shallow attempts--but I guess that is better than nothing. :-) I'll take that.

[Selwynn]

17. Yeah, except my experience with the AHA has totally sucked

You know, I used to call myself a humanist all the time. And I donated to the AHA and became a member. This year, I decided not to donate any more money or support the American Humanist Organization in any way. Want to know why?

Because when I joined I did so because I believed that this would be a group of people that valued the beauty of the human being, embraced a spirit of free and open critical inquiry, philosophical reflection, and wed that with an active commitment to a progressive agenda of social justice and human rights.

Of the course of my two and a half years of membership, you know what I found? I found that the AHA did very little besides bash religion. Almost every article, every call to action, indeed every issue that was ever brought to members had to do with critcising fundamentlists or arguing against supernatualism. Every time I turned around, there was only more evidence that the AHA was hardly pro anything, and instead was just an anti-religion organization.

This is a shame, because the subject of the rejection of supernational imperitives for action and morality is only a tiny part of the Humanist Manifesto, and Humanism as reflected by Corliss Lamont was desgined to be inclusive of secular and religious humanist, and of all people who believd in the dignity and importance of the human being, and believed that the power for positive transformative change lay in the domain of human action, and not supernatual intervention - a beliefe that is not irreconcilable with liberal religous articulations.

I'm not arguing for religious beliefs of any kind. But I was severely disappointed that the biggest subject the AHA ever talked about was religion, and how wrong it was, and and endless and repetative attacking of classical theism, even while there were huge matters of gigantic importance going on in the world that should have been the focus of attention.

I'm not interested in joining an anti-religious group, or a group that makes its primary focus the attack or de-bunking of other people's belifes. I am interested in organizations that have as their mission the active betterment of the human condition, the promotion of progressive ideals, and embracing of BOTH scientific rationality and emotional evokative beauty of life and the world, and an unswerving belief that reguardless of faith beliefs or lack of faith believes, the power for continuing human betterment and development lies within each human being commited to progress. That is NOT what the AHA has show itself to be about in the last year and a half. I'm sick and tire of yet another tired report critiquing the "logicality" of belief in God. WHO CARES! That's not why I wanted to call myself a Humanist, to argue about matters of personal faith or lack thereof!

I am very disillusioned in "humanism" and I don't even bother associating myself with the term these days. Maybe I'll post this as a separate thread...

[ParanoidPat]

20. That's the beauty of this church.....

....NO FLAMES! :evilgrin:
Just a willingness to let each other live our lives the best way we see fit and help each other where we can. :)
(Oh, did I mention the fertility rites? :spank: )

[Malva Zebrina]

34. I am really sorry that you feel betrayed

and that you feel your efforts and your trust have been dismissed.

[ParanoidPat]

35. I guess he'd rather just flame them.....

.....so he started his own thread. :evilfrown:
Perhaps he'll join later. :)

[Liberal Classic]

19. Behold! The Church of the Hanging Chad!

Patron saint of IBM 711 punched card readers.

[ParanoidPat]

21. Yep! All our beliefs are.....

.....in BASIC! :evilgrin:

[Liberal Classic]

23. Eschew not the Holy Assembler

Or you shall see daemons!

[ParanoidPat]

25. The geek.....

.....shall inherit the earth! :evilgrin:

[Liberal Classic]

26. Can't top that

Touche!

[ParanoidPat]

28. A gentle kick.....

.....so that others may get the message! O8)

(Hint: It's not our differences that will save us, it's our similarities!}

:kick:

[DisgustipatedinCA]

29. Stepping off the deep end now

Given that religious interpretation is highly subjective, and also given that I'm not an expert on the subject any may have some assumptions wrong, many may not agree with me, but...

What you describe sounds an awful lot like Buddhism to me. No, I've never been to a Buddhist temple, and I've just read a couple of books here and there (Joseph Campbell, DT Suzuki). I know that Buddhists have many symbols, many icons. But doesn't Buddhism also teach that there are many modes to "get to where your'e going"? That God itself (pre-duality, therefore not him or her)...that God itself is the last great hinderence to transcendance? Doesn't Buddhism (or at least some of its followers) teach that any religion can be used as a modality to progress (i.e., you drive a Ford on Elm Street to get to work, I drive a Honda on Maple Street to get to work, and we both get there just fine)?

As you can see from above, I don't self-identify as a Buddhist, but if someone made me pick, I think that's where I'd come down.

Anyway, whether I'm right or wrong or somewhere in-between, I like that you posted this thread, so thank you.

[ParanoidPat]

30. My favorite Suzuki quote....

....."Life is like stepping onto a ship about to sail out to sea.....
....and sink." :)

[DisgustipatedinCA]

31. I have a quote I like

There's a book called Buddhism Without Beliefs (Chicken Soup for the Athiest Soul?). I didn't end up liking the book a great deal, but there was a quote that stuck with me:

The only thing certain in life is that you will die. What do you intend to do about it?


I really like that one. It allows one to quickly see that the chase for the gated community or the Hummer or whatever is a pretty empty thing. Sure, there are lots of other ways to come to the same realiziation, but I like the wording of this one.

[ParanoidPat]

32. As do I.

Peace and thanks! :)

On Edit: I can't remember where I first heard it but I guess my answer would be 'Death is a once in a lifetime experience and I intend to save it for last!' ;)