This is the end to my three generation Democratic

[NaMeaHou]

pull the lever for the party.

This does it. They are weak kneed pieces of crap.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/18/politics/main573860.shtml

Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, warned that the abortion ban was a first step toward overturning the 1973 court ruling. "I see where this is going: a couple of votes here or there in the next election, you can kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye."

The 64-34 vote came three weeks after the House passed the same measure by 281-142.

[Catch22Dem]

1. Why does some cocksucker named "Douglass"

Get to decide what a woman should and shouldn't, can and can't do with her body. I have a deep loathing for these people.

[amlouden]

2. self righteous

they seem to think they know what's good for everybody. they don't care if the mother dies, just as long as that fetus comes out alive

[elperromagico]

8. The idiocy here...

is the notion that by banning something, it will be stopped. Didn't work with Prohibition, hasn't worked with the drug war, and it won't work with abortion.

The only thing a ban on abortion would accomplish would be to force it underground. You'd see women going out of the country to get abortions, or worse, getting them done illegally in an unsafe environment.

So the pro-life stance comes down to this: Endanger the lives of women in order to save the lives of fetuses. How very smart.

[calm_blue_ocean]

10. Some other bans that haven't worked . . .

drunk driving, murder, kidnapping, jaywalking, tax evasion, excessive polluting, copyright infringement, sexual assault, bestiality, arson, robery, etc, etc, etc.

[elperromagico]

11. So how shall we deal with this ban?

If a woman is caught receiving an illegal abortion, what shall we do? Charge her with capital murder?

Are we prepared to execute a woman because she does not wish to carry her baby to term?

[Old and In the Way]

14. Perhaps the State will required 24 hour monitoring of the baby's

life status. Once your Dr. confirms the pregnancy, the Government will arrange for monitors (in the bedroom, on your person?) to make sure that you don't have an illegal abortion.

I swear, people don't think about the consequences of their actions.

[charlie]

16. The ban targets only doctors

Fines and up to two years imprisonment.

[calm_blue_ocean]

28. What do we do with the bans that are "working" . . .

that are listed above in my previous message?

Are they all capital offenses subjecting one to the death penalty?

Are these bans enforced with perfect justice in every case, with each penalty being exactly commensaurate with each respective crime?

If not, is this a good reason to repeal any of the other bans I listed above?

By the way, most states already restrict late-term abortions and I believe that at least some states have state criminal penalties for those who violate the late-term abortion restrictions. I am not aware of any state that levies the death penalty for violating late-term abortion restrictions.

[cally]

3. Well,. I share your anger

and I despise Daschle. They are 'weak kneed pieces of crap'. Still, on the national level they are the only way to win. I believe that if it was a close vote then the Dems would have held firm and the Repu would not. Who is in power does matter even if party elites do not support our values.

[NaMeaHou]

5. Holding firm means voting your beliefs

no matter what the power group shoves in your face.

I am disgusted beyond belief. I have been watching these democrats in congress just lay down and support everything from the taking of our personal freedoms to sending young men off to die for no reason.

I have had enough.

Either the democrats in congress wake up with a spine, or they do not get my support.

Sorry, but that is the way it is.

[cally]

7. No,

Democrats will not support anti-choice judges. It's our only chance to maintain the right to choose.

I'm beyond disgusted but I do respect the courage shown with the fillibuster. The dems held firm and I think this vote was just a way to please voters at home and build credibility to fight bigger issues

[sleipnir]

4. This is why ABB doesn't work

We need someone to stand up to the neo-cons, not bend over and kowtow each day. ABB is a failure and that type of behavior drives us down a dangerous road (sorry Will Pitt)

[Pastiche423]

29. YES!

ABB is voting for the status quo, no change, more bending over, begging to be...

SSDD

[sandnsea]

6. What about the 30 others?

I'm very disappointed that so many voted for this. In part, it's the fault of pro-choice activists for continuing to label the whole thing as choice. This procedure is a medical necessity and they should have been calling it a D&X all along and demanding government keep it's nose out of medical decisions. But anyway, the Democratic Party is the only option to keep things from getting worse. That and a change in the way activist groups present their arguments.

[calm_blue_ocean]

9. I disagree . . .

Democratic congresspeople (the ones that voted for the bill, are making a very shrewd political move on this partial birth abortion issue.

First, the law will probably be outlawed by the Supreme Court because it lacks a life and health of the mother exception (see Roe v. Wade).

Second, you want to get people voting against Bush and other Republicans -- then get people concerned about the abortion issue. Its a winner for the Democratic party. Believe me, * does not want to be debating abortion in 2004.

The outlook now: this law is going to greatly help the Democratic party without killing any women.

[Resistance Is Futile]

12. On the contrary

Rove would love to be debating abortion--and every other fireaxe issue--in 2004 because it would obscure the fact that Chimpy is a dishonest and corrupt liar. It's much easier to score points on hot-button issues, such as abortion, than argue real policy.

[calm_blue_ocean]

13. Why is the abortion issue not "real policy?" nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Should not be THE focal point of partisan debate

from a tactical point of view because:

1) 50% of voters will never under any imaginable circumstances get pregnant

2) Even some of the other 50% are anti-choice

A smart Dem candidate will refuse to get bogged down in the abortion issue, which is very divisive, and will attack Bushboy for his mishandling of the economy and the Middle East situation.

[calm_blue_ocean]

18. Don't understand your reasoning . . .

any issue that affects 50% or less of the population should not be an issue of political debate?

Under this standard, affirmative action would never be an issue (racial minorities are less than 50% by definition).

Under this standard, the Iraq War would never be an issue (less than 50% of us are soldiers).

Under this standard, *'s tax cuts wouldn't be an issue (they applied to much less than 50% of us, unfortunately).

Under this standard, anti-slavery was not an appropriate issue for political debate (in 1860, fewer than 50% of us were slaves).

Under this standard, public education is not a political issue (less than 50% of us are children and/or adolescents).

As long as abortion is considered to be a Constitutional right, it is a political issue (just like every other Constitutional right).

[Resistance Is Futile]

20. Does not follow

Taking issue with some of your specific points rather than your general argument:


The Iraq war effected the entire planet rather than just the members of the armed forces. It was a more than 50% issue if for no other reason than the fact that all American taxpayers paid--and are paying for--it.

Chimp's tax cuts will effect everyone by starving government to death due to a lack of revenue. This is much more than a sub-50% issue.

The institution of slavery was the underpinnings of the southern economy and any changes would have effected damn near all of the southern population and much of the north.

Public education effects all of us as economic output and political behavior depends very strongly on the level of education given to the unwashed masses.

[calm_blue_ocean]

22. I think you are getting it!

Abortion (or lack thereof) doesn't have substantial indirect affects on everybody? Of course it does!

By the way, we are all fetuses at some point in our lives -- so, in that sense, abortion (or lack thereof) is an issue that *directly* affects everybody.

[Resistance Is Futile]

26. I'm not arguing

I agree with your position that %50+1 is not a criteria for determining what is a political issue. I was merely taking exception to some of your examples as they are far larger than %50+1 issues.

As for abortion, it is very much a sub %50 issue. Abortion does not effect society in general and is fundamentally a private matter. The business has no business legislating it. People who do not like abortion can simply not have them.

[Resistance Is Futile]

19. Side show issue

Abortion is a mere sideshow issue when America is simultainously sliding towards fascist dictatorship and staring financial collapse in the face. Real policy right now is dealing with the debt crisis, the collapse of the pension system, and the baby boomer retirement bubble. Handle these issues badly and the national economy collapses. Debating abortion now is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic: it makes noise and gets people angry, but doesn't keep the ship from sinking.

The social darwinist issue trio of abortion, gay rights and flag burning are nothing but a distraction to deflect from the fact that the social darwinist party has not only completely failed to address the major issues of this decade but has indeed made them far worse. The social darwinists would like nothing better than to marginalize the opposition as hippy fag lovers (their phrases, not mine) than fight over the real issues.

[calm_blue_ocean]

21. Now gay rights is not a "real issue?"

Sheesh! I think some DUers, especially gay and lesbian DUers, would disagree.

A real issue is any issue where there is substantial disagreement among the voting public concerning what the law and/or rgulations and/or treaties should be. Sorry, but that is what politics is in a democracy.

[Resistance Is Futile]

23. Not here and not now

Civil rights are extremely important but they don't mean anything if the country turns into a dictatorship. Restoring the balance of powers by throwing the social darwinists out of at least one branch of government is absolutely vital to the survival of the republic. This cannot be stressed enough. Now is not the time to make a principled stand on the more divisive issues of civil rights (gay rights, abortion, etc) if it means that the social darwinists retain their hold on absolute power.

If the social darwinists are checked and the impending disaster is averted, then social justice and civil rights can be addressed. If the social darwinists remain in power America will be irrecoverably altered in such a way that basic democratic, religious and economic liberties will no longer exist. The stakes are such that short-term compromise now is a small price to pay for saving the future.

[calm_blue_ocean]

25. oh, I get it

you are having a panic attack.

Breathe nice and slowly and evenly and deeply -- I'll get you a nice plastic cup with some cool water.

[Resistance Is Futile]

27. Cut the sarcasm

If you're not worried then you haven't been doing enough research.

Start here. http://www.pkarchive.org/column/column.html

[tom_paine]

24. I'm afraid I agree, RIF

But I dislike your monniker.

Resistance is NOT futile!

[Old and In the Way]

17. Maybe this is a wake-up call to the young and politically

apathetic. Wake-up call #2 will be the draft.

This is Republican legislation, not a Democratic initiative. Maybe those that should be voting will finally get the message that, gee, there are issues that will affect them personally.

Laws can be made and laws can be dissolved....if this motivates people to register and vote these assholes out of office, I'm all for it.