Charlie Rangel says some of Clark's views very republican

[bearfartinthewoods]

a point of conflict between Clark and one of his early endorsers, Charlie Rangel surfaced over the Puerto Rican island of Vieques.

this is just an example of the type of conflcts that arise when we are deal with an unknown quantity such as Clark. he will put many of us in the same positon as Charlie...wanting to give Clark hell about something he's done or said that we have to 'work around'.

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/8777.htm

WASHINGTON - Wesley Clark was an ardent advocate of live-fire bombing on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques - putting him at odds with virtually every Democrat in New York, The Post has learned.

It also puts Clark in conflict on the emotional issue with one of his most important backers in Congress - Rep. Charles Rangel (D-Manhattan).

Rangel said the revelation would not stop him from supporting Clark, but added, "I hope that when he's elected, over a drink I can give him hell over Vieques."

snip

"I fully support every possible effort to continue the training at Vieques," Clark told the Senate Armed Services Committee in February 2000.

snip

Rangel said: "I have to admit there's been very difficult issues I've raised with . Some of his positions have been very Republican. I don't like that at all."

[pinkpops]

1. Republican view?

It may have been a view Republicans shared with the military, but in this case it might have been a pragmatic military view. The guy is a former general, so what would you expect?

[annxburns]

2. New York Post ,,,,

...trying to stir up trouble for Clark? I'm SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I SAY.

[pinkpops]

3. hmm...

I think you may be on to something...

[bearfartinthewoods]

4. would you say the same thing to Charlie?

he gave them the quote. he's on Clark's side but is smart enough to realize this sort of stuff has to be dealt with.

i'd like to ask Charlie the question the post didn't ask.

what other republican positons does Clark hold? we have a right to know the answer to that, don't you think?

[pinkpops]

5. This was a bad position to take

in light of what the people there were having to go through. But Democrats and Republicans alike tolerated the situation for many years.

[eileen_d]

6. Are you going to ask Charlie?

I say go for it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

60. i tried but no reply

[mdmc]

8. God, I don't want to know

I'm up to my ears in local GOP turned Dem candidates.
If Clark can pick up some middle voters and bring them into the party, then fine.
I like the idea of having a President that once lived in Orange County, NY (where I live; West Point is located here).
If Clark, or John McCain, or anyone else decides to join our party, and they WIN the primary, then I'll support them.
Personally, I don't even like Clark as Dean's vp. But thats just me.
:dem:

[pinkpops]

10. What, pray tell

is a Republican position?

[mdmc]

14. you know

small govt
balenced budgets
self sufficiency
poor spelling
private schools
:~)

[TacticalPeek]

27. Weird I say, how the right often attacks Clark

for ostensibly agreeing with their ostensible positions.

Voted for Reagan? Clark's a dangerous kook.

Talked to Republican group? Rabble rouser.

Praised President Bush? Obvious crackpot.

Attacked Iraq's WMD? Old news.

Supports bombing training? Warmonger.


Makes one wonder about their motives. Perhaps the RW pundits fear that they may be struck by pangs of conscience in the voting booth, and cast one for Clark. Obviously they fear facing a real patriot with considerable skills and accomplishments on the other side of the ballot, as they should.

[LalahLand]

7. Affirmative Action at its WORST

How many things will we look the other way on with this guy JUST BECAUSE he's a "General?"

[annxburns]

11. That's insulting .....

... but about what I expect. I haven't decided who to vote for yet between Edwards, Kerry or Clark, but I not willing to dismiss the guy just because he had General in front of his name. He seems like an interesting guy and he has certain strengths. I'm glad he is running. I know ... I'm UNPURE. I should join a cultish following of another unnamed candidate and stop being pragmatic .... (Shame)

[eileen_d]

12. Who's "we"?

I think Clark is a good candidate (not my favorite) but NOT just because he's a general. He's also well educated, and I agree with many of his positions on issues (although they are still a bit sketchy). I welcome any and all information about Clark - that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly agree or disagree with it.

Kindly give your fellow DUers a little more credit.

[mdmc]

13. ABBA

Anyone but bush again
I guess we will all look the other way as long as the Dem candidate can beat Bush.
I'm a lefty thats already 'looking the other way' to support the candidate of my choice and its not event he primary yet!

[CWebster]

9. The backtracking begins

when reality comes a'knockin'.

Clark's big splash into the cesspool.

[Renew Deal]

15. You can't resist jumping into a Clark thread.

Don't you have anything better to do than throw out one liners in every Clark thread?

[IndianaGreen]

17. Clark is a creature of the military-industrial complex

Why are many of Clark's supporters in denial about Clark's real nature? I guess we still have people that are awaiting for the Messiah to appear, only to find out later on that he is made out of clay after all.

[eileen_d]

19. Ah yes, I remember

"All generals are the same."

It's frustrating when we don't all pigeonhole candidates on the basis of their jobs, isn't it?

[RichM]

55. BWAhaahaha!! "Pigeonholing," indeed! The claim is made that

Clark is a "creature of the MI complex." You call that "pigeonholing."

Do you really think it's going far out on a limb to infer that someone who spent their entire career moving in the top circles of the military, is a creature of those circles? If the candidate was a career Wall Street bigshot, would it be "pigeonholing" to say that (s)he was a "creature of Wall Street?"

You can't tell EVERYTHING about a person on the basis of their job. But that doesn't mean you can't tell ANYTHING about them, by looking at what they did all their life.

No one said "All generals are the same." The claim, rather, is that certain attitudes are very widespread among high-ranking career military people.

[eileen_d]

56. Save your laughter for something really funny.

IndianaGreen DID make the statement "All generals are the same" in another thread. In those exact words. I was recalling that, and I DO call THAT pigeonholing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=557259&mesg_id=557591&page=

Is Clark's background important? Of course. But some folks just use Clark as a blank screen for projecting all of their hatred for the entire military-industrial-complex. That's the type of closed-mindedness I object to.

[RichM]

59. A few questions for you, then. 1) Do YOU think the MI complex deserves

this "hatred?" (your word, but let's use it, for the sake of simplicity) (I assume that you do.)

2) Is it not then very reasonable to be worried about Clark's attitude towards the MI complex?

3) Is there the slightest reason to believe that Clark is a strong & commited opponent of the MI complex? Is he someone who sees the MI-C's influence as a terrible danger to US society, as a consumer of a grotesque proportion of our resources? Is he going to be willing to lead a brutal campaign against the powerful interests in Washington whose existence depends on continued growth of the MIC? Or is he basically very friendly with all of them, & thus not anxious to cross swords with them at all?

[mmonk]

21. What's his real nature?

I should get an honest view from a detractor. Speak your mind using specifics.

[CWebster]

22. Don't you have anything better to do than

make an issue of where and when I post?

Sorry if you don't like it, but thems the breaks - we aren't all here to participate in your glee club -- because,yes, I am not a big fan of the US military, it's representitives and it's policies--including the bombing of Vieques.

Its recruiting efforts to lure naive kids into enlisting as cannon fodder in the call of fighting communism, terrorism or making the world safe for American interests(read American imperialism) fills me with profound disgust. So, don't expect me to be silent while you rally around the General and coo over his liberalism after he has spent a career steeped in everything it opposes---just so you can show him off to the Republicans as a so much better Republican choice.

[mmonk]

31. Isolation

won't work in a interdependent world.

[CWebster]

38. no

but cooperation and diplomacy might.

And the way it looks to me, aside from it's buddy Israel, the US is more isolated than it's ever been due to some of its recent military excursions.

[Renew Deal]

44. The military excursion came from...

The politicians. The military doesn't just get to fight where they want. Are you taking Bush* off the hook?

[TacticalPeek]

33. Would you support a candidate for the Dem nomination

who vigorously campaigned on this?

"I am not a big fan of the US military, it's representitives and it's policies--including the bombing of Vieques.

Its recruiting efforts to lure naive kids into enlisting as cannon fodder in the call of fighting communism, terrorism or making the world safe for American interests(read American imperialism) fills me with profound disgust."

:shrug:

[CWebster]

39. Oh, so we should go to the other extreme and embrace it?

[TacticalPeek]

42. I thought not.

:)

[Renew Deal]

40. My Response

It has nothing to do with a "glee club." We are here, we can disagree, and we do disagree all the time. That's fine with me. My problem with your comment was that is was a needless vitriolic one-liner. OK, so you hate the military. Please ask the National Guard to leave your neighborhood next time there is a hurricane, tornado or terrorist attack. Please spit on a soldier while you are at it. What's the military good for anyway? I mean they only protect you from people that don't want you flapping your gums in dissent of the gov't and even them.

I am not here to defend the military, but they are not all bad. Many people go there and are happy about their service. They support their families, get educations and hopefully come back better off. Besides that, every country has a military. They are used differently in different situations. It is the politicians that decide to "fight communism" not the military. The military makes it a success. In other words, it is a tool in the diplomatic process.

The problem is that you have "leaders" that misuse it. The other problem is that not everyone is on our side (our meaning US). We have enemies too. Sure you could have a philosophical conversation about "why they hate us", but that's not the point.

I don't see how you think Clark "has spent a career steeped in everything it (liberalism) opposes." How do you come to that? You're telling me to read "American Imperialism." Fine, and you read Winning Modern Wars. He does not want to fight. He knows better. You know we are the party of FDR, Truman, JFK, Clinton don't you. These guys were all "liberals" and they all used the military. Two of them used it to win WW2. They dropped "the bomb." Not the republicans. We are the party of John Kerry and Al Gore. Two Democrats that went to Vietnam. Not like our republican counterparts that supposedly support the military and are strong on defense, but don't show up. We have the warriors. We have the education. Some of our guys are brilliant.

So now we have a former General. But this former General is socially liberal. He runs to the word liberal while others run away. I don't like Clark just because of the brass. He has something to offer this country. He offers real proven leadership. He loves this country. He listened to JFK and sacrificed 35 years for it. He has an education that is unmatched in the military. He has a degree in economics. And he is someone who can bring some honesty and decency to the presidency. He is not someone that has been a politician all his life flapping his lips and taking donations.

I have a question for you and IndianaGreen. What would be your answer to this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=569544&mesg_id=569544

[TacticalPeek]

46. Hey, I like his brass.

A moderate dose is needed, especially by Dems.

[CWebster]

49. National guard never came to my neighborhood

after a flood--the Red Cross did.

And don't give me your shit about spitting on soldiers or any of that other inflamatory crap. My father was a soldier and saw more ugliness and terror and human suffering from heartbreak Ridge, Korea than any of you keyboard combatants will ever fantasize about. So while your General campaigns around the country inviting naive kids to join up and fight in the noble cause of America, kids are being picked off, committing suicide and subject to strange diseases and ailments the military dismisses while cutting their benefits.

Do you think these kids will come home painting a rosy picture, or will they, if they have seen enough human behavior at it's most brutal, scoff at those who paint a portrait of valor and honor?

They will be silenced and marginalized for their anti-American views.

Same as it ever was.

[Renew Deal]

52. Great, but you didn't respond to one thing I said.

And you take the blame away from Bush about cutting benefits and put it on the military.

"So while your General campaigns around the country inviting naive kids to join up and fight in the noble cause of America."

What are you talking about? Proof?

How about addressing the ideas I posed instead of skirting them. What's your answer to my last question?

[CWebster]

53. Well, actually I did

Since your post was little more than a billboard advertisement.

As for proof--I went to Clark's site and read his speeches as linked here on DU and also saw him speak on TV--I am not pulling it out of my arse.

[Renew Deal]

54. Still nothing.

And what did he say? Take all the kids and send them the Army? You still haven't answered my last question. Maybe I should just post it here to make it easy. I really wonder what your feeling is on this. I have a guess.
__________________________________________________________________
Poll question: Elections in 2 weeks. What are you going to do about it?

Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 10:28 PM by Bleachers7
OK, so we have elections in two weeks everywhere. We are the real committed politicians in our communities. You don't hang out at DU without loving politics.

So like I said...elections in 2 weeks. What are you doing about it? We have everyone from fire commissioners to governors running for office. What are you doing to get democrats elected?

I am a Clark supporter. I am working on his campaign. I am also working for a wonderful local County Legislator (Nassau NY) David Denenberg. I am dropping literature and calling people. I am going to work my ass off for him and Clark for the next two weeks. I am working for Denenberg because I am proud to be a Democrat!!! This guy works his ass off for our community. He is smart, friendly and smart some more.

It is extremely rewarding working for a local Democrat. It is just two weeks but they need our help. So put down the keyboard a minute and help our guys. Go to their offices and ask them how you can help for two weeks. And if you live in a heavy Republican district even better. Go and drop literature in your hood. Make a presence. Make sure everyone knows that we are fighting hard and KICKIN ASS (as per DNC). So here is the poll question... What have I inspired you to do for the next two weeks?




Poll result (43 votes)
I was already working on a local campaign. (15 votes, 35%) Vote
You inspired me to work my ass off for the next two weeks starting tomorrow. (4 votes, 9%) Vote
I am a Prima donna who never volunteers. I just flap my lips at DU about ideology. (2 votes, 5%) Vote
You have inspired me to consider helping. (0 votes, 0%) Vote
I am in a heavy republican district. It is hopeless. (8 votes, 19%) Vote
I am in a heavy republican district. It is hopeless. But I will go flyer the neighborhoods for my favorite Dems. (2 votes, 5%) Vote
I will do nothing. (2 votes, 5%) Vote
I am not a Democrat. Who cares about you guys? Rah Rah Go Green, or whatever else. (3 votes, 7%) Vote
I have a good reason why I am doing nothing. (3 votes, 7%) Vote
Clintons Penis\Other... (4 votes, 9%) Vote

[ComerPerro]

16. Yeah, some of his views are Republican, but

as we discovered in a thread last night, many of us have at least a few viewpoints that could be considered "Republican".

[bearfartinthewoods]

20. link? i missed that one..

[ComerPerro]

25. Here ya go

It actually got kicked up on the first page of GD anyway.

Here is the link to that thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=570178

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. thank you

[CWebster]

26. We are not running for President

either.

[ComerPerro]

30. I am

I am announcing my candidacy right now.

I am running, and representing the "For Lack of a Better Comeback to CWebster" Party. We are going to win, and we are going to change things....

[demnan]

18. Clark is a military man

He's going to have views that support the military.

This is a minor point for me (I suppose if I lived on the Island it might be a major point). The military is responsible for a lot of environmental damage all over the country that should be curtailed.

On the other hand look at the positives, I'm sure he will be in favor of maintaining veterans benefits and raising military pay, which would be a plus. And all this foolishness about charging the military for their meals while in hospitals would be over.

I'm not for Clark, but I'm not against him either.

[xultar]

58. I agree...

You hit the nail on the head. He is a military man so that will play a part. I don't want them to bomb on Vieques however, I don't want it to be a deciding point in the election.

[VermontDem2004]

23. I thought Rangel

was the congressional representive of Harlem, not Manhattan. I could be wrong but I could've sworn it was Harlem.

[charlie]

29. His district includes the Upper West Side

as well as Harlem.

[LoneStarLiberal]

24. A Different Take on This

Charlie Rangel is a Democrat.

Wes Clark is a Democrat with some Republican-sounding views.

Charlie Rangel still endorses Wes Clark.

Huzzah!

[bearfartinthewoods]

28. it maybe a huzzah for you but for me it a WTF?

i haven't tracked Charlie closely but i can't think of any republican issue that he abides. i guess the lure of having a NY resident is pretty strong? i never understood that early endorsement.

[LoneStarLiberal]

32. Understood

I hear you loud and clear!

I know Clark isn't everyone's guy and I personally think that's great...that's the way it's going to be in the primary season and I'm fine with it.

I was surprised (pleasantly) by Rangel's endorsement for many of the same reasons you were surprised.

[TacticalPeek]

41. Rangel republican issue?

IIRC, he stepped in it a bit in the '80s crime fight, drug war, mandatory minimum sentences? I could be wrong, its been a while, but I seem to recall being somewhat pissed and amazed. Well, not so amazed, elections and all, and Raygun as oppo. But I still love Charlie, he's one of the best. We all make mistakes, we just need quicker corrections sometimes. (Reminds me of Clark's emphasis on the lasting importance of quick reversal of environmental degradation; he should put a staffer on integrating that with Vieques, see if there's a third way.)

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. Not the 'Republican view' at all

Did Clinton, a Democrat, end the use of Vieques for training? No.

Did Bush, a Republican, end the use of Vieques for training? Yes.

http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=1465035&nav=23iiIIFk

[OKNancy]

35. BFD - so what?

Some Dean supporters don't like his gun stance.
Some Kucinich supporters don't like his past anti-choice stace.
Some Kerry and Edwards supporters don't like the Iraq vote
Gephardt supporters don't like the picture in the Rose garden

They still support their candidate. They look at the big picture.

In the scheme of things I don't think this is a deal breaker.

[diplomats]

48. I agree

[Cocoa]

36. Can't wait to hear what Sharpton will say about this...

Sharpton has a unique perspective on Vieques, having served a couple of months in jail for protesting there.

[TacticalPeek]

43. A test of tensile strength for the Big Tent's canvas.

:)

[bearfartinthewoods]

47. holy sh*t...you are right! i forgot all about that!

can you say..."INCOMING"?

[WilliamPitt]

45. Clark, Lieberman, Dean, Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards all have

'Republican views' on one matter or another. It's a disingenuous comment.

[bearfartinthewoods]

50. disingenuous comment???? hmmmmmm

i don't know if i'd go that far but it sure as hell is an interesting comment.

i took a DUers suggestion and wrote to ask Charlie for a clarification but i'm not holding my breathe.

Will, as a journalist, would you let a statement like that go by without a follow-up?

[WilliamPitt]

51. I would not

[bearfartinthewoods]

57. me either....