Men, women and choice.

[NicoleM]

I'm going to try to compose this before my anti-nausea medicine kicks in and I become an incoherent zombie.

In the various abortion threads yesterday, there have been some men who believe that if women have a choice as to whether or not to have an abortion, they should also have a choice as to whether or not to support the child once it is born. It is "unfair" and "sexist" if women have a choice and men don't.

Let me tell you about unfair and sexist. Since literally days after conception, I have had extreme nausea. When I've been able to eat, I either throw up or spend a fair amount of time in the bathroom waiting to throw up. In addition to food, I've thrown up water, stomach acid, and blood. I pretty much don't leave the house anymore, because I could throw up at anytime without warning. The vomiting and nausea are subsiding, but they're not gone. By the time they're finally gone, the heartburn will probably start.

Meanwhile, my husband has been able to eat what he wants, go where he wants, do what he wants. He is a very sweet person and has made this much easier for me. But the fact remains that he has suffered no physical consequences from this pregnancy. THAT is unfair and sexist.

Then in a few months I'll get to experience the miracle of childbirth. I've never done it before, but I know that odds are decent my perineum will either tear or have to be cut open. Think about that for a minute, guys. Some women tear all the way from vagina to rectum. They are at risk for permanent fecal incontenence, from what I've read.

After pregnancy, I will bleed from the uterus for quite a while. According to my pregnancy book, I'll be passing lots of clots, but I should only be concerned if they're bigger than a lemon. I'll also have cramps from my uterus shriking back to it's original size.

Are you getting my point yet? I said before that you made your choice when you put your sperm where it might fertilize an egg. I was told that was sexist--if it doesn't apply to women, it shouldn't apply to men. Your physical involvement ends the moment the sex is over. My physical involvement has only just begun.

Some men around here seem to think that the only choice involved in abortion is whether or not you want to be a parent, and if the woman gets to choose that after the fact then so should they. But that's not the only choice. We have to choose whether or not to put our bodies through a year of discomfort, unpleasantness, and the occasional agony which could not only have permanent physical effects, but could put our lives in danger.

I believe people who find themselves unexpectedly pregnant should discuss all their options with their partners. But I don't believe a man should be off the hook for childrearing expenses just because he doesn't feel like it. And really, wouldn't a responsible person at least feel a little obligation toward his offspring?

I have to stop now, because the drugs are kicking in. I hope that made sense.

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. You made perfect sense, NicoleM, and thank you.

I hope you feel better. Your baby will be wonderful when he or she is born.

[demnan]

2. Tell it like it is, Nicole

okay you men, listen up, No more whining. Period.

[mmonk]

59. So because biology works the way it does,

men should have no say so, only monetary responsibility. The women don't have to have any responsibility whatsoever. Men alone are legally responsible for their actions. I support a woman's right to choose, but its thinking like this that bothers me. A friend of mine went through a divorce recently. His wife stayed out at night carousing and had an affair while he was the primary care giver of his children (before the divorce). When he filed for divorce and requested custody, the court made him go through psychological testing (because men aren't supposed to want their children). They awarded the children to the mother and he could keep them every two weeks for a week. Later, because he suspected neglect, he sought custody again. The court then reduced his time with his children even further. To me, this kind of thinking is not fair and probably based on the same kind of thinking as it relates to men should have no say.

[Jen72]

97. That is sad for your friend.

How ever when most women decides to have a child, unplanned or not, they will understand that they are responsible. They know that for the time they are pregnant, the cannot drink alcohol, be around smokers, drink coffee, they have to be careful about flying, lifting things,they stay awake at night when the baby kicks or they can't get comfortable. They have that time to realise that their life, for the next 18 years, with revolve around somebody else. They also realise that for all the pain and discomfort that is the baby, they don't even know should die, it would hurt like nothing on earth.
Some women do abandon their children and society will vilify them.
But the majority of mothers, feel the responsibilities and burdens of having a child, from the moment they decide to have the baby until well after they leave home. Many of them do this with nothing more that a minimum contribution and occasional contact from, a man that has lived a free life.
Those mothers also understand that for all of the heartache and struggles, her life alone with her child is richer, then the life of the man without the courage to rise to the challenge of fatherhood.

[mmonk]

100. Thanks for your post,

I support abortion rights because banning will cause problems (return to the back alley) and is impractical. As a father of two, I am sensitive to being considered nothing more than sperm donors or spectators with little rights. I don't think either sex should abandon their responsibilities. I don't think men in general should be judged by those that walk away. Because we don't bear children doesn't mean we are not a parent. Biology is the way it is.

[Terwilliger]

3. I think that's crap!

Meanwhile, my husband has been able to eat what he wants, go where he wants, do what he wants. He is a very sweet person and has made this much easier for me. But the fact remains that he has suffered no physical consequences from this pregnancy. THAT is unfair and sexist.

Women are the bearers of children. If you don't like that, don't have a baby, but because you suffer the childbirth and he doesn't...that's sexist??? GIVE ME A BREAK!

[liberalhistorian]

8. How very easy you make it sound,

if you don't like it just don't have babies. Obviously, you've never physically and emotionally suffered the way us gals who've gone through it have.

My boyfriend threw me out of the house when I was pregnant because he "didn't want to deal with it." And yet, he didn't want me to get an abortion, either. He accused me of screwing around on him (BULLSHIT!) and all kinds of other evil, nasty things. My life was changed forever and he just went on his merry little way like nothing had ever happened. He even got mad at me when I got sick (which I did all the time, morning, afternoon, evening, middle of the night), like I could help it. Now, 12 years later, he bitches about the very minimal child support he has to pay (barely enough to cover the cost of toothpast, I might add). He has a three-year-old son with his fiance, and she resents him having to pay anything at all, she wants it all to go to HER son.

So forgive me if I don't cry a river over poor abused, mistreated men, because as far as I'm concerned, they have it a helluva lot easier and always will.

[Terwilliger]

13. but nothing you said makes the natural consequnce of being male...

inherently "sexist"

Look, men are pigs (a lot of them) but that doesn't make women weaker, does it? Your circumstance is terrible, but that's YOUR choice...YOU invited him in, YOU have to live with those consequences.

[NicoleM]

16. That is exactly my point.

Some men don't want to live with the consequences. It's inconvenient, so they don't think they should have to do it.

I think you misunderstood how I was using the word sexist. It didn't mean it in the literal sense, that somebody is discriminating against me because I'm a woman. I meant that there is an inherent difference in what I do vs. what he does, and it's only because I'm a woman and he's a man.

I'm going to blame my lack of clarity on the drugs. :)

[Terwilliger]

24. a LOT of men don't want the responsibility

but that doesn't change the fact that there are TWO who particpate in the horizontal mambo, and ONE of them should be very aware of the consequences of that choice, even if the other is irresponsible.

[Jen72]

62. Yes and one of them, may have got her into bed,

by telling her, he loves her, wants her, needs her.
He may have romanced her, be a wonderful man to date. She maybe be truely in love with him
She may not know until she is pregnant that how much of a selfish pig, he really is. She may have been responsible, she can get pregnant on The Pill and condoms do fail sometimes. (I love how the implication is that the woman has to be responsible, because men cannot be relied upon.)
When she says to him she is pregnant and he acts like a child,she maybe shocked to discover that side of him.
If she wants to take the oppertunity to have a baby, then nobody should deny her that chance. In making that decision, she is taking full responsibility for her actions, she is making to chose to change her life forever. If the man wants nothing to do with the child, he won't, he will find away to not pay child support. And even if all he does is pay child support, he has the easiest job in bringing up a child. Being commited,loving, involved father is far tougher and takes
courage.

[Terwilliger]

92. now you're excusing being misled

I want women to be in a greater position of authority, but you're giving men all the power then complaining when they do what they've always done before

I believe I said elsewhere in this sub-thread men can be dogs...my point is, we're not inherently dogs because we were born with no uterus.

[Jen72]

102. No but the men that are dogs, with lie and cheat.

They will give a woman great pain until they learn to
stop dating toxic men.
The women in authority, get there because the are confident, have ambititon and fine eduacation. They are career women. They also know that men are dogs. In there private lifes, men still may use them, lie to them, cheat on them, leave them at a time of need.
Hilary Clinton is a prime example of how being a strong, confident, professional woman.It is not going to make her husband feel less inclined to lie to her, cheat on her and humiliate her, in front of the whole world. (Not meant as an attack on Bill Clinton.)

The women I talk about are the ones you meet everyday, they may not excude confidence, they are just trying to live their lives.
Are you saying that if a woman, meets a man, likes him, gets to know him and then after going to bed with him, maybe falling in love with him, it is her fault, if he has seduced her with lies?
The worst "dogs", understand how to use power and will use it, to get laid. The woman maybe young, inexperienced, flattered, needy, unsure of herself. Being told you are beautiful,sexy,sweet etc, can be powerful when you like the man.
Most women have these experiences, they get their hearts broken and hopefully learn that a real man is honest, respectful,sincere,make them feel safe, care about them in bed, shares responsibilty for the relationships and is not chicken when it comes to commitment.

Incidently should she find she is pregnant,by an unwilling partner,
she does have all of the power of choices and that is why the men are whinning here. They can not stand women having power in their individual lifes.

[liberalhistorian]

17. He dipped his wick as well,

so why shouldn't HE have to "live with those consequences" as well? Why is it always considered 100 percent the woman's fault and burden, when the man chose to have sex as well? Women don't get pregnant on their own, at least not the last time I checked. They do have a little bit of help.

And I don't believe, btw, that men are inherently sexist or that most men are pigs. I do agree that it's very unfair for women to just generally consider all men to be sexist pigs, since that is definitely not the case.

[JVS]

20. That is why you should have the right to terminate the pregnancy at will

because you, the woman is the one who has to bear the burden. So you should have the ability to stop it as you see fit, without anyone's permission.

[liberalhistorian]

26. I chose not to have an abortion because

I knew I wouldn't be able to go through with it and I knew I would be emotionally scarred for a very long time. Abortion for women is not just an easy, breezy thing where we just waltz into the clinic and waltz back out again afterwards, happy as a lark. It's one of the most tortuous, difficult decisions ever, that you can never undo once it's done. It's not just a matter of dismissively saying, well, just get an abortion, like you're getting your hair cut or something like that.

[JVS]

28. Your body. Your choice. Your consequences. Your problem

[liberalhistorian]

31. But, again, women do NOT

get pregnant on their own, MEN also make the choice to have sex, MEN are also responsible, NOT JUST THE WOMAN! WHY is that so hard to understand?

[JVS]

36. But the man's ability to act is over once conception begins

There is nothing he can do to stop the wheels from turning. At that point all ability to act is with the woman.

[liberalhistorian]

51. So, again, maybe he should think about that

before he makes the choice to dip his wick? If you're so insistent that women must be aware of their responsibilities and the consequences of their choices, shouldn't it also stand to reason that men should do the same as well?

[JVS]

55. You are equating the decision to have sex with the decision to procreate

this is typically the tactic of anti-choicers, although you do mask it in a cute euphemism.

[Jen72]

86. Where did LH say she was anti choice?

She decided that an abortion was not right for her, does not mean she is against abortion for others.
Her experience has however taught her that Abortion involves soulsearching and it can break your heart. Some women who make that choice, would choose to have the baby under different circumstances, it is a decision that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

If you are sincere about wanting sex, with none of possibility to precreate, versectomies are reversable and the only way to ensure, you will not have to pay child support.

[JVS]

90. The question is why is she using anti-choice arguments?

Arguments that equate the sex act with an expressed desire to procreate.

[liberalhistorian]

124. I did NO SUCH THING.

I was pro-choice at the time of my pregnancy 13 years ago, and I remain pro-choice. I was simply trying to point out that the abortion decision is not as easy and breezy as a lot of people seem to think, that it's one of the most wrenching, difficult, tortuous decisions anyone will ever face. Just because I chose not to have an abortion doesn't mean I don't want that choice available for other women.

[Blue_Chill]

50. Men also bear a burden.

One the lasts 18 years that is controlled by a system that favors women far too much.

[Woodstock]

112. ah, you've revealed the root of your discontent

Yes, the system favors women. That's why we own most of the wealth and have amassed most of the power on earth. :eyes: IF ONLY you spent some time in inner cities and impoverished areas and saw how little of that 18 years of support is either received or what it buys, and if only you saw the kind of lives the women left holding the bag live. Poor you.

Whether you agree with abortion or not, the bottom line is we don't want Ashcroft - or you - making life or death decisions for us.

[Yupster]

111. I agree JVS

Just because you have sex doesn't mean you're agreeing to be a mom.

I would expect people at DU would also agree that just because a man has sex doesn't mean he agrees to be a dad, but instead this thread is full of calling men dogs and pigs. WTF is with that?

[Terwilliger]

22. yes, but THEN you want to say that men have no input on your choice?

I'm not saying anything about the guy in your case...I'm talking about YOUR considerations, YOUR choices...that has nothing to do with that guy. I'm not commenting on this guy's responsibility...that's between you and he.

[liberalhistorian]

I didn't say men didn't have and shouldn't have

an input. That was the original poster, I believe.

[NicoleM]

32. Actually, I said this:

"I believe people who find themselves unexpectedly pregnant should discuss all their options with their partners. But I don't believe a man should be off the hook for childrearing expenses just because he doesn't feel like it."

[Terwilliger]

38. who, except those men, think that?

not me...obviously, a pregnancy is inherently a 50/50 proposition...there are responsibilities

[Terwilliger]

35. my mistake

wouldn't want to unduly dispense responsibility :D

[Jen72]

75. She does live with the consequents.....

She is a Mom. She She is buys clothes, checks homework,deals with nightmares,tears went her child has a fight with their best friends. She has the consequence of shouldering the total responsibility of making her child, a healthy,well-adjusted,kind person.
She maybe having to console her child, when it thinks that his new son is more important.
Does the father of this woman's child, face any consequences for the pain her has caused? No he does exactly want he pleases.

I watched a documentry about families. A father felt "hemmed in," by his responsibilities and left so he could race cars, drink beer and have his own space. The result was that his two-year old son, stopped eatting, constantly woke up at night, was clingy.
By your reasoning, it was his wife's choice, she had sex risking pregnancy, choose to give birth to her son, therefore when a man
leaves and BREAKS A TWO YEAR OLDS HEART, it is not his responsibilty.

BTW: Your choice, you invited him - is a common defence for rape, you really need to grow up, it you like that an acceptable argument.

[Terwilliger]

87. You're blanket generalizing men

You seems to flow from the idea that men are inherently bad. That's ALSO a different argument. In Nicole's post, she defers to the idea that her husband is there for her and "very sweet", but she believes that it is sexist that he does not endure her pains as a mother. That is very different from other points of consideration.

Now on to the non-sequitur... Frankly, there are two people having sex. "Choice" exists on many levels.

[Jen72]

104. I like men...

However a man that is a "dog", who refuses responsibilty, who scares his children by his indifference, is not a man I can ever like, he is not a good man, by many peoples standards. In fact he makes it hard for women to trust any men, let alone recognise a good man.

[JVS]

10. I agree. That seems to fall more under the "life is tough" file

and not under the "oppressive phallocracy" category.

[NicoleM]

11. Life IS tough.

Women have to suffer through pregnancy and childbirth. Men should have to bear at least a little of the financial burden of having a child.

[Terwilliger]

14. ?????

When do men not bear the financial burden? SHIT, there are whole court systems set-up to make sure that fathers pay child support. What is your post in response to?

[NicoleM]

18. Did you read my first post?

I was addressing this to the men who think they shouldn't have to bear any financial responsibility for their children because they don't want to.

[Terwilliger]

30. yeah, but my thread was about your statement...

that sexism and unfairness was inherent in the physical realities of men and women. My post didn't address irresponsible fathers.

[NicoleM]

33. Um. . .

You're the one who asked who I was addressing this to. I answered.

[Terwilliger]

40. follow the thread

I responded to a specific point in your original post...JVS responded to me, and then you responded to him about financial responsibility. No one mentioned financial responsibility. I was talking about that one point, and there's no indication that JVS changed the subject.

[NicoleM]

42. I AM following the thread.

Sheesh. THE WHOLE POINT OF THE THREAD IS MEN'S FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY to their children.

[Lindacooks]

27. Get real

There are tens of thousands of men who don't follow court orders and who are delinquent on child support payments. There are entire court systems set up to help women collect on child support payments because many men DON'T pay. Just because a man is ordered to pay child support doesn't mean he does. And BTW, many of those payments are laughably tiny. As another poster said, barely enough to buy toothpaste, let alone support raising a child.

[Terwilliger]

37. but who's fault is that???

the guy? who was apparently always a scumbag? or the woman who shouldn''t have had sex that night??

[hiphopnation]

108. Your outrage and defensiveness

is a bit baffling. Are YOU a dead beat dad?? Nicole has made it clear that she does not consider all men inherently sexist. She only suggests the laws of nature to be somewhat imbalanced when it comes to the issue of child-rearing.

You've gone from defending men, to defending dead beat dads. That's fucked up man.

[Jen72]

115. Yes you are right!!!

A woman is the one that shouldn't have sex because she may get pregnant. The man she may have loved, cared for, live with and
needed, might have to reveal himself as a the total bastard he really is.
Sadly women do date bastards, they excuse them, pamper them, flatter their egos and make them feel they may have someone that will replace their Mommy's. It is learning curve for many women.

Don't bother to reply because i am so disgusted with you, you are on ignore.

[Blue_Chill]

46. You GET REAL

The child support system is set up to fail on the side of screwing the males. I have worked in finance offices and we sent the child support only to have our employees get thier licenses suspended for not paying.

The punishments for not paying are immediate if the ex wants them to be, but they often mess up the reporting.

That's the REALITY of it. You can go on living in fantasy land all you want. The laws have been set so you CAN NOT fail to pay for a long time now. The only thing a woman has to do is use the laws already on the books.

[liberalhistorian]

53. So then why haven't the laws worked

in my case and why has he been able to get away with not paying for over a year and not having our son on his medical insurance like he's supposed to? And whatever is paid is NOTHING compared to the daily costs of child rearing. I'M the one who buys his clothes, shoes, food, school books and supplies, medical care, etc., etc. The law is very slow in this regard, it takes forever to "use the laws" as you say.

[Blue_Chill]

56. What state do you live in?

Here in VA you don't pay your next check has money missing from it.

Also I can't stand complaints associated with having custody. I know many many many fathers that would love to be in your shoes and have your problems. You see their wives moved away for the specific purpose of kieeping them from their kids. You see we men are penalized for being male in custody courts.

[liberalhistorian]

67. Well, there may be

"many, many, many fathers who would love to be in my shoes and have my problems", but my son's father sure as hell isn't one of them and I frankly don't know too many men where that's the case. I know a lot of women whose husbands have left them high and dry with the kids so they can go off and play with other women or live the fast life, but not vice versa.

And yes, that is very wrong to keep children from their father the way you describe. There are many situations where the father would be the far better custodial parent, and I think a lot of courts (not enough, unfortunately, but we're getting there) are starting to wise up to that.

And I live in Ohio, where the laws are not given anywhere near the teeth they need. VA sounds a lot tougher.

[Blue_Chill]

78. That sucks

I think the laws should be tough, and the courts should be fair. Good luck to you.

[Jen72]

116. I agree with everything you have said here.

nt.

[Yupster]

113. And how about

when a woman has an affair on her husband, has a kid by the new man, and the court orders the ex-husband to pay child support to the cheating ex who's living with the guy he cheated with and their kid. WTF is with that?

[liberalhistorian]

126. I agree, that is incredibly wrong and

unfair. Hopefully, the laws will start to change in that regard.

[NicoleM]

57. Really?

I'm 27, my sister's 25. My dad still owes my mom thousands of dollars in back child support. She has a judgment against him--if he sells any property, she gets paid first. That's the only way she's ever going to see any of that money. I don't know the particulars, but somehow he's managed to evade paying a lot of child support over the years.

I also have an older half-brother and an older half-sister, and I'd be stunned if he paid any child support for either of them. My sister and I grew up struggling, but they grew up in real poverty.

My father has had six children with four different women. The only one he felt like supporting was the youngest one, who lives with him. How is that fair to the rest of us? Why does he get to decide which kids he wants to take care of and which ones he doesn't?

[Blue_Chill]

61. hmm.

how long ago was this? Because where I am if you don't pay it comes out of your check unless you make so little it is deemed that you can't live without every penny.

[liberalhistorian]

70. Again, I think it depends on the state.

Where you live, VA, sounds a lot tougher than Ohio, where I am, and many other states. My son's father's fiance taught him how to game the system and work it so that he could avoid paying for a very long time, and then start the process over again when they finally caught up to him. Some states are much tougher than others, and in some states the laws barely have any teeth at all.

[Blue_Chill]

80. game the system?

That's a sure sign the laws aren't working. Something needs to be done if it's that easy.

I like the "if you don't pay we suspend your license" way of making people pay. I just wish the damn system would be more reliable so they didn't punish the wrong people.

[Tansy_Gold]

101. There are lots of ways out of paying support

An acquaintance of mind was divorced in 1995. He had two children, ages 5 and 6. He also had a seven-figure annual income and numerous investment properties.

Because the divorce was obtained in a community property state, the real estate was divided in half. The father obtained appraisals from friends in the business so that the lower-value properties were listed at well above market value, and the high-end properties were listed well below. The so-called 50/50 split on property ended up being more like 80/20 in his favor.

On the basis of his average annual income, he was hit with $2500/month child support. Because he was pissed at his ex for the way she "done him wrong," he decided to screw her out of the child support. Never mind that he was screwing his own kids.

He quit his job, liquidated his entire holdings and went on a gambling and investment spree to the point that he was conveniently forced into bankruptcy. With no income, he could not be forced into paying child support.

One of his "failed" investments was a business partnership with his new girlfriend. On paper, she owned the business, and he was merely an employee making $20,000 a year. In fact, however, he turned a seven-figure income which stayed in girlfriend's name. So did the lavish house "she" bought with "her" business income. And the cars. And the vacations. All in her name. And should they marry, it will remain protected as pre-nuptial property.

Neither of the kids got a penny.

When men engage in sex they incur a responsibility to any live-born children that may result from that activity. Their responsibility does not end just because they choose to walk away from it. Women do NOT have all the rights; they have SOME rights because more often than not they are left with ALL the responsibility. The responsibility for birth control, the responsibility for getting and paying for an abortion, the responsibility of choosing to have the abortion or carrying the pregnancy to term. These are responsibilities too, and too many men seem to think the woman is getting off scot free just becuase she asks the guy to chip in and HELP pay for the damn kid. HELP, damnit, just HELP. No one's asking the men to do it ALL.

And if I hear one more guy say that he shouldn't have to pay for the kids from a former relationship because it cramps his style in making a new family, I will probably hit him upside the head with a two by four. All the complaints about the child support system and its predations on poor, suffering men are all designed to get men completely off the hook for EVERYTHING. They don't want to worry about birth control, they don't want to worry about the cost of abortions (few are covered by insurance, fewer by public assistance). And they sure as hell don't want to pay for any unwanted kids.

On the other hand, there are the guys who insist that they have the RIGHT to veto any abortion of a child "they" created. They want to have their cake and eat it too! All the rights, but NONE of the resposibilities!

And of course their mantra is "Well, if only women can get pregnant, then they should accept all that responsibility. Must be God didn't want men to be responsible for babies, because men can't have them."

But men still want unfettered sexual access to women. Any women. all women. All the time. With no strings. No commitment. Men get their viagra paid for by their insurance; women have no similar right to contraceptives. But without these rights, women have all the responsibility!

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!

too many men don't like it that their feet are being held to the fire. They're being told they need to take some responsibility for the fruit of their loins. They don't like it. Well too fucking bad. That's what this whole discussion is about. The men just don't like us uppity women taking them to task. They want to be footloose and fancy free, and if a woman "falls," it's her tough luck.

You don't want us fighting back. you don't want us speaking out. You don't want us demanding that you help us in the glorious task of raising children.

Well, some of us are demanding. And some of us are calling some of you out as the worthless dickhead scumbags that you are.

[Blue_Chill]

43. Men also have to pay for kids that aren't ours.

That sound fair to you?

[liberalhistorian]

48. Oh, God, here we go with that crap again.

So because JUST A FEW men have to pay for kids that aren't theirs, that means the rest of them should be free to avoid and shirk their responsiblity. Okay, got it now.

[Blue_Chill]

52. Just cause a few?

If it's no big deal that you do it?

I'll get you some contact info, I'm sure they'll be thrilled that you will be taking over payments.


(Point is the system is sexist, but it isn't favoring males.)

[NicoleM]

58. Nope.

It's not. They shouldn't have to.

[Blue_Chill]

63. Thank you.

And women shouldn't have to go thru the hell of being pregnent. You'd think with all the advances in modern medicine we'd have solved some of these health issues by now.

[liberalhistorian]

12. Obviously, another man, who will never

have to suffer through a pregnancy, birth, and the aftermath. How easy it is to be condescending and dismissive when you'll never have to deal with it.

[JVS]

15. Why do you get mad at others just because they don't have your problem?

[liberalhistorian]

19. I don't get mad at them because they

"don't have my problem", I get angry at flippant condescending generalizations from people who have no idea what they're talking about because they have not, and will never, experience it.

[JVS]

21. You said that it is sexist and unfair that you got morning sickness

Sexist and unfair on whose part? God, Mother nature, society's. I am sure it sucks, I've had stomach flu all week and it sucked too. But decrying morning sickness as sexist makes about as much sense as me decrying stomach flu as a Chinese conspiracy against me. It's just one of those things that makes life imperfect.

edit: typo

[NicoleM]

23. Give me a freaking break.

See my earlier post. I wasn't using the word "sexist" in the literal sense.

I've had "morning sickness" since the end of July (morning, noon and night sickness, really). So when you have the stomach flu for four months, then we can talk about how much it sucks.

[JVS]

25. Then how were you using it? Please explain.

[Jen72]

123. I am sorry you are so sick.

They must be rough. I also think that as you are currently pregnant, your feelings on the physical realites of bringing new life, are very valid and should not be dismissed.
When a woman she four mouths of morning sickness and it dismissed as merely a "life sucks" problem by men,that is sexiest. Women are strong, more independent but that does not mean should recieve little understanding or compassion from men.
By the way, many women still work fall time, while grappling with Morning Sickness. Men try going to work one day with food poisoning, then go through the day, without complaining and working as normal. You can't complain, because the women may say, it is your fault for going to a resturant. You can't possibly blame the chef. He cooked the food, he did not store right, he didn't wash his hands (apologises to Nicole) but you made the choice to enter a resturant,ordered the food, eat it and paid for it, so the it is your own fault you are sick.
When men refuse to understand that carrying a child, involves mounmental physical demands and dismiss it as a " consequence because you had sex," that is sexiest.

[liberalhistorian]

29. I did NOT say it was sexist and unfair

to have morning sickness while men didn't, that's a distortion of the original post. You might as well say it's sexist and unfair for men to have prostate cancer when women don't, it's just as ridiculous. And I don't think that's what NicoleM was saying, anyway.

[JVS]

34. Well that is where this branch of the conversation started...

from Terwilliger's post.
"You might as well say it's sexist and unfair for men to have prostate cancer when women don't, it's just as ridiculous."

I agree completely. So why did you jump on me when I said something along the same vein?

[BurtWorm]

41. Wow! Terwilliger!

Defending the patriarchy! Will wonders never cease?

[Terwilliger]

45. Wow! BurtWorm!

not at all...why do you say that?

[BurtWorm]

74. See below

Post 72.

[prolesunited]

47. Have to admit

I was a bit surprised as well. Perhaps he just hasn't explained himself well. :shrug:

[Terwilliger]

54. what isn't understood?

from NicoleM's original post:

But the fact remains that he has suffered no physical consequences from this pregnancy. THAT is unfair and sexist.

NicoleM said that it was "unfair and sexist" that her husband did not have to endure what is hers by nature. Now, I can accept a lot of what she had to say, and in fact I do, but THAT was a ridiculous statement!

I'm sorry if that was unclear.

[BurtWorm]

72. You're denying the distribution of labor in human reproduction is unfair?

I can see where the charge of sexism against nature might be a bit extreme, but not the inherent injustice of the inequality of the sexes in childbearing. And I think even the charge of sexism has merit, not against nature, but against the childbearing culture that passively accepts this disparity as a given that requires no further discussion. There are political consequences to this view, and men have tended to benefit from them. That is sexist.

[Terwilliger]

81. where are you getting that Burt?

Where do you read this? Where have I said that "labor of production of human offspring is..." I never said anything like this.

Unfairness is ONE thing...true or not. But I am not sexist simply because I cannot endure the physical characteristics that accomapany birth.

When I was young and thinking about getting married someday, I didn't think about the fact that I wouldn't actually be bearing the child. That has no impact on how I would treat the situation, or whether or not I would be there for the mother. So, I am NOT sexist because I'm not actually doing the birth. If I'm doing as much as I can, I'm hoping my wife doesn't think I'm sexist because I'm not throwing up.

[BurtWorm]

84. Now it's patently clear you're misreading her

and me. She did not say men are sexist for not being able to endure childbirth. She called the situation "sexist."

[Terwilliger]

88. she 'called the situation sexist'...what situation?

the situation of his inability to bear a child?

[BurtWorm]

91. The. Situation. Of. Child. Bearing.

For. Human. Beings. In. General.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

94. Oy! Okay, be that way.

:hi:

[Jen72]

49. Every woman's body responds differently too.

Pregnancy.
Nicole is pregnant for the first time and I am sure her partner is kind, thoughtful and emphasises.
Nicole did not know how sick, she would get, some women don't get sick much.
The truth is that men, want involvment, to participe, the right to
insist that their child is born, but they have no appreciation of what it involves for a woman.
You are correct that Women are bearers of children, however as Nicole is currently pregnant, she has every right to complain. She choose to have the child maybe because she wants to have a family.
Complaining about the physical downside of a pregnancy, does not make
childbirth a bad thing, it is just giving people a dose of reality, from someone who is living the experience.
And yes you are being sexist here.

[Terwilliger]

60. whatever you say

because nicole's implication is "I am male, therefore sexist by birth"

great liberal slogan there

[NicoleM]

65. Jesus God.

I never said that. I never meant that. I've already said so. Are we clear yet?

[Terwilliger]

68. Holy Fuck!

It's printed in your original post. People are telling ME now that I'm sexist, because you said that your husband is sexist because he isn't ernduring your pain.

Now, please! I am not commenting on the other aspects of your original post. I agree on those other points.

[NicoleM]

71. I am going to tell you one last time

that that is neither what I said nor what I meant. Obviously, you either choose not to understand or you choose not to believe me. Whatever.

[BurtWorm]

73. You're willfully misreading her.

Or maybe just defensively misreading her.

[Terwilliger]

76. Explain

explain how I am misreading this...

Meanwhile, my husband has been able to eat what he wants, go where he wants, do what he wants. He is a very sweet person and has made this much easier for me. But the fact remains that he has suffered no physical consequences from this pregnancy. THAT is unfair and sexist.

Do you agree with this? He is sexist because he can't endure what Nicole feels?

[BurtWorm]

77. She did not say "he is sexist."

She said the situation is. See post 72 above.

[Terwilliger]

83. The situation is natural

"sexist" implies intent...how is a physical characteristic inherently sexist?

[BurtWorm]

89. Human beings transform nature into culture.

They transform the givens of sexual reproduction, as they transform every other aspect of being animal in the physical universe, into a set of cultural contexts that they refer to repeatedly and that acquire and accumulate meaning. (It's difficult to discuss this without sounding like an acade-babbler, but there is something real I'm talking about here.) So sex is not just nature for human beings. It, like everything else we do, is culture, and as you probably agree, culture is much more rife with intention than nature.

[Terwilliger]

96. Like belief in god...yeah, I've seen the physical manifestations

of human characteristics, but sexism is an intent on the part of "the situation"...situations don't have intent, people do...so if the situation is that the man doesn't feel the pain, his intent must be sexist? That was the thrust of what she said.

I understand that society has a penchant for misunderstanding. The fact that choice in abortion is still a legal issue speaks volumes on how the society has (or has not) progressed. I still say that men aren't inherently sexist because they won't be going through what the women are.

Shit, give women a year off, tax-breaks, guarantted assistance, whatever else a mother of a child should have, but men will still only ever have the experience of stress and fractured hands after delivery.

[BurtWorm]

98. Will you please stop focusing on "the man" being sexist?

Nicole has said clearly she was not accusing her husband of being sexist because his "role" is easier than hers. You're creating a straw woman.

[Love Bug]

4. Great post, NicoleM!

Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with "morning" sickness. This is a distant memory for me, but I do remember my husband holding me over the toilet. Happily, my pregnancy went well otherwise and I have a beautiful daughter and two beautiful grandsons to show for it! So, keep your "eye on the prize" as it were and try not to think about the possibility of physical problems.

May your labor be easy and your stretch marks be few! ;)

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zanana]

6. You made alot of sense, NicoleM.

Obviously, you are going through what so many of us just don't want to think about. The sheer physical discomfort of pregnancy and childbirth is so often dismissed, or even joked about. Even unwanted pregnancies must be seen as "blessed" events. My niece called me a few weeks ago to tell me she's pregnant again. She already has two children and didn't want any more. She's definitely not happy about it, but she's religious and doesn't feel that she can have an abortion. She said the worst part is that she's going to have to act like she's happy about it, and people are going to "congratulate" her. As far as this pregnancy and birth, she just wants to have it over with. She also hates looking "comical" when she gets big. I don't think she's unusual; it's just that we're discouraged from looking at pregnancy that way. When it's wanted, it's wonderful. But let's face it; an unwanted pregnancy can be pretty miserable.

[NicoleM]

9. A wanted pregnancy can be miserable, too.

We totally did this on purpose. We weren't expecting it to "take" as soon as it did (like days after we started trying) but we wanted it. Doesn't make it any more enjoyable right now. I suppose it would be worse, though, if I hadn't wanted it.

[reachout]

7. Your pardon if this sounds crude

But I've always said "You don't tell me what to do with my , I won't tell you what to do with your . That way, we can all take care or our own business."

note: edited for those with delicate sensibilites

[BurtWorm]

39. Thank you, Nicole!

Wouldn't it be great if the women of Congress went into detail like this during floor debates about the physical consequences of pregnancy?

[Jen72]

44. Well said Nicole...

Men! If your girlfriend does not wish to bring your child in the world,it maybe becausue you are still selfish, totally inconsiderate, have a roving eye,drink to much, put Football before her needs, are tight with money, lack commitment, is an unrepentent mommy's boy or any other reason.
And if your girlfriend decides to have your child, that you have no interest in, then allow her furfill a dream of becoming a mother.
Paying for the child, is an investment, for when you decide your child is interesting.It will give your parents a chance to be the grandparents they may love to be too. And it will help that child believe that even if you are mostly abscent by choice, they you are not a complete asshole!!!

By the way, when giving birth, the woman has to endure pain unlike anything else for sometime more than twenty four hours, they have the most private parts exposed for who ever wishes to see. Some women puke, pee and shit themselves from the strain of pushing.
Then if it seems the head is too big, she has to endure being cut open without a full general anisthetic. She will have scaring, will not be able to hold her baby straight away as she would a virginal birth. She will suffer with terrible anxieties, between the birthing room and theatre too.
If a woman goes through all that without the support of a loving partner, they deserve kindness, respect and an acknowledgement of shared responsibilty.
If child support is a serious worry, men always find ways to not paid.

[Nederland]

64. Unfair vs. Sexist

Meanwhile, my husband has been able to eat what he wants, go where he wants, do what he wants. He is a very sweet person and has made this much easier for me. But the fact remains that he has suffered no physical consequences from this pregnancy. THAT is unfair and sexist.

Yes this is unfair, but it is not sexist. The fact that nature has created a situation where only woman suffer from the burden of pregnancy is definitely unfair. However, the term 'sexist' refers to actions and situations created by people, not nature.

[NicoleM]

66. I've already said

repeatedly that I was not using the word "sexist" in the literal sense of the word. I chose that word because that was the word some men used when they were whining about having to be responsible for their offspring.

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. Plain and simple,

easy to understand and right on the money, Nicole! I haven't read all the posts yet but, let us NOT forget the PAIN of labor and the actual childbirth itself. Since this is your first baby, you haven't experienced it.... Men would never... ever... ever have more than one child if they experienced childbirth. 24 hours of labor. Pain so intense it feels like your splitting in half. Then childbirth, you CAN tear and it is the most PAINFUL thing that you can only IMAGINE, since you have no uterus...oh ya....this is one area, men should just stay out of!

Nicole! I don't mean to scare you...I'm sorry! I wish you all of life's blessings when your new little baby comes into this world! :hug:

Just ignore my post :7....it's meant to enlighten the men who want to tell women what to do with their bodies.

[zoeybug]

99. Wait a minute, here

Okay, pregnancy and childbirth can be hard - but really it is a blessing to be able to bear a child. With my first, I felt sick for a few months, and tired the whole time, but still liked feeling the baby kicking and being pregnant. Childbirth is the most difficult thing I've ever done - but dealing with pain and difficulty can make you a stronger person. Also - when the baby is born, the baby and the mother have a close special relationship, to the point where the father often feels left out.

So - pregnancy and childbirth are more difficult for women than for men, but the rewards are potentially greater as well, at least at first.

And I don't buy the "men would never have more than one child if they experienced childbirth" line. Heck, I'm surprised that so many women would.

[in_cog_ni_to]

105. Trust me,

I know the pure JOY of having a baby and just being pregnant. I waited 20 years before I could get pregnant, went through in vitro, waited to adopt for 10 years...the WHOLE kit and caboodle so, no-one was happier to be pregnant than I was. However, if all men are like MY husband...who has NO...ZIP...NADA...ZERO..pain tolerance, they would never have more than one child. My opinion comes from MY experience with my husband. Ok, maybe I should say...my husband would never in a million years get pregnant. THAT is a FACT. JMCPO

[DemExpat]

79. What I would do if I were you, Nicole....

Then in a few months I'll get to experience the miracle of childbirth. I've never done it before, but I know that odds are decent my perineum will either tear or have to be cut open. Think about that for a minute, guys. Some women tear all the way from vagina to rectum. They are at risk for permanent fecal incontenence, from what I've read.

is to not to focus at ALL on the negative, alarmist stories about pregnancies......hopefully your nausea will pass soon and you will feel on top of the world!
I never felt so sexual as when I was pregnant! :D

Birth is painful, but not unbearable, (scary too the first time) but I've found that the inner strength you gain from going through it pays off later throughout life IMO.

My first was a 24 hour ordeal, with a complete tear of my perenium to rectum - but a good surgeon will prevent any later misery.....
This also did not keep me from having my second, which was much easier!

I felt unhappy about the way the first birth went, but never did I feel I was cursed as a woman for having to give birth.
It's an attitude thing....

Read some good, uplifting books about childbirth.....Sheila Kitzinger (spelling) was one of my favorites back in the '80s....

I wish you a comfortable and healthy pregnancy in the coming months, Nicole, a good birth, and a precious baby boy or girl in your arms at the end of the journey.

DemEx

edit: Feel free to PM me if you want tips from an 'ol pro' at natural chidbirth and/or breastfeeding! :hi:

[NicoleM]

82. Thanks but

I'm not focusing on only the negatives IRL, I was trying to paint a picture for the men who don't get it.

[DemExpat]

85. I'm not at all religious, either, but I've felt sorry for men

because they cannot ever experience what is an incredibly life-altering experience IMO.....:D

GO figure....

:hi:

DemEx

[hiphopnation]

95. Hooray Nicole!

For putting it on the line like it need to be!! I too was shocked at some of the responses in earlier threads (muddleoftheroad to name one).

In a much broader scope, I feel that this argument has parallels in the race argument. When whites ask "why are you holding on to the past?" and say things like "Look at how far we've come!"

What I mean by that is, for centuries women have been demeaned, shamed, discriminated against, and marginalized. After suffarage, equal rights, feminism, and years and years of struggle they've finally forced the issue of their deicion to do what they want with their bodies and men are crying sexism?!?!

C'mon?!?! Get off it guys! To me, this is a no-brainer. Your say in the matter end the minute you decide to climb into bed and decide not to protect yourself.

If all you have to do is "pay for that mistake" (I'm loath to word it like that, but that's the essence of what some DU men have said) then you should consider yourself lucky; lucky that women don't force you to move into thier basment and work slave labor for the rest of your lives for being pig-headed, ignorant, selfish, brudish d*ckheads with not so much as a wit about them to WANT to care for that precious life, much less cry foul that you're being treated "unfairly" for being left out of the decision.

Nicole, nothingshocksmeanymore, et. al. you are right on point here. Keep up the fight against this misogyny - that is what it is, at it's base.

BTW, not that it matters, but I'm a man. LOL :hi:

[Woodstock]

122. There are some guys that don't get it here

and they never will, but there are lots who do, which is wonderful. Even though we will never get through to the ones that refuse to open their hearts and minds (the childhood issues are likely just too great) I think what we are saying here does reach out to other people.

[skippysmom]

103. thanks Nicole

I'm glad you posted this. When it comes to pregnancy and abortion, women truly do have more at stake than men do. The physical, emotional, and financial toll of bearing children primarily falls on women.

Good luck to you.

[Clete]

106. Don't forget the eighteen or more years of commitment

to raise the child you created. As much as men like to think they are involved in child rearing, the majority of the burden still falls on the mother. Men come and go. They fullfill their duty mostly by writing a check and then helping out. It is never enough. If a woman becomes a widow or divorcee, she still does 80 to 90 percent of the child-rearing. There really is no equality here.

[Yupster]

118. "Men come and go" ???

You haven't had many good experiences with men I guess?

My dad was there from day one. So was my wife's. So am I. So is my brother. None of us went.

Is this part of us being dogs and pigs I guess?

The insults on men in these threads is really eye-opening to this married guy. I really didn't know so many women were so angry and dismissive of us.

If it's this way on DU, it's probably worse in the general population, as it's assumed that DU is a pretty tolerant place.

[NicoleM]

119. How many

people on this thread have called men "dogs and pigs"? One or two? It's certainly not the majority of women. I know I haven't.

[hiphopnation]

121. I think it's part of the pendulum swing.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the issue here has parallels in the race issue. When white people say "why do you still hold onto the anger about what happened hundreds of years ago" and "Look at how far we've come!"; these are indications that we have indeed not come nearly far enough.

The same applies here. When men assume that the choice to keep or not to keep a child and the ramifications that go with BOTH decisions is easy and then cry fould if they're left out of that decision, it becomes appearent to most women that they've much further to go in advancing the femenist agenda.

It might be you who is not progressive enough. Not to knock you, you sound like an upstanding guy. But there are MANY women who are racked with pain, guilt and shame for deciding to keep or not to keep a child and most of the men they are involved with are oblivious to it. My $ 0.02.

edit: spelling, grammer

[Jen72]

125. I used the word "dogs" to describe a certain type of man.

No men in general, not men like you, who are clearly not
affraid on commitment.
The men i refered to are the bastards that knock a girl up and refuse
to help in anyway.I am about as tolerent of them as I am of the Freepers that watched our bombing of Bagdad with popcorn and beer, like a football game.

[hiphopnation]

127. Actually

truth be told I was in a situation where I got a woman pregnant. We both ruminated long and hard on the issue. In the end I felt I was not ready for a child. Neither did she, but her faith prohibited her from aborting the fetus so she kept the baby. After much pain and heartache, I told her that I would support her decision no matter what. It has not been an easy road for us, but today I have a beautiful 3yo (holding back tears) daughter whom I love more than anything in the world. She changed my life in the most beautiful and profound ways imaginable. And the mother and I are getting along quite well, though we haven't married yet.

I did not want to tell this story at the beginning of my getting involved in this post because, though relevent, I feel that the issue here is more how women are treated and precieved in this society; the underlying misogyny that most men don't even realize they have. The same goes for race. Both racism and misogyny are still rampant in this society and it angers me when people think that because of the civil rights movement in the 60's and the feminist movement in the 70's that "poof!" we've a level playing field. It's faulty. Anyway, again, my $0.02.

edit: spelling

[Yupster]

107. I feel bad for you and my wife went through

the same thing, except she wears a diabetic pump too which gave her another thing to worry about. She cried everytime her blood sugar got out of whack because she thought she was hurting the baby.

So, I can sympathize, but

that really has nothing at all to do with the question of whether a woman should be able to force a man to be a parent against his will.

In my opinion of course.

[hiphopnation]

114. Confusing the issue again

and raising the straw man. Why is it so hard to "wrap that rascal" if you don't want a kid in the first place? How long have women been told "if you don't want a baby, don't have sex."?

Why can't this standard apply to men? If you're that concerned about getting a woman pregnant chances are you will never be put in the position of having a woman "forcing" you into becoming a parent, so your defense is kind of moot.

[NicoleM]

117. I think we've demonstrated amply

that a woman can't force a man to be a parent against his will. Read some of the stories of the single mothers, or the children of single mothers, and you will see that NOBODY can force a man to be a parent if he doesn't want to.

A man's legal responsibilites toward his children are a completely separate issue. SOMEBODY has to pay to take care of the kids. I'm not going to pay to raise your children just because you don't feel like doing it. Sorry.

[Selwynn]

109. I agree

[Woodstock]

110. A man's choice begins and ends

when he leaves his present, if you will, in another person's body. I like to keep my comments rated G, so there's no other way to put it.

Choose wisely who you give your presents to.

[Book Lover]

120. Men can also use birth control

It's not all up to me, you know. Don't want to be a parent? Get snipped, use a condom, get into a trial with the new men's pill, do not engage in penile-vaginal intercourse, sign a legally-binding agreement before every sexual encounter that explicitly divests you of parental rights, engage in homosexual intercourse. What have I forgotten?

[hooligan]

128. It's threads like this that make me envy gay men.