TV ALERT: Peter Deutsch on "Hardball" TONIGHT! Terri Schiavo

[Maxplunder]

Date: 10/22/03 3:11:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
TV Alert! U.S. Rep. Peter Deutsch on “Hardball” with Chris Mathews tonight! 7:30 pm – MSNBC Peter Deutsch will join Chris Mathews on Hardball tonight to discuss the recent decision by the Florida Legislature that empowered Gov. Jeb Bush to order the reinstatement of intravenous fluids to Terri Schiavo. Congressman Deutsch spent 10 years in the Florida Legislature and was involved in the ethical, moral and legal issues regarding the “right to die.”
REMEMBER TO TUNE IN TONIGHT AT 7:30PM ON MSNBC

[Girlfriday]

1. Welcome to DU Maxplunder!

:hi:

[Maxplunder]

4. Thanks y'all

Glad to be here

[newyawker99]

2. Hi Maxplunder!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[janx]

3. How's freeperland, Max?

To: Budge

Unfortunately, I am flooded with freepmails and I am on injured reserved today. Please freepmail dandelion the same freepmail. Thanks.

OH, ONE MORE THING. WE NEED SOME BRAVE SOUL TO VISIT THE DU AND PUT THIS EMAIL THERE. Even democrats are against Terri being offed.

Subj: TV ALERT: Peter Deutsch on "Hardball" with Chris Mathews TONIGHT! Date: 10/22/03 3:11:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: [e-mail] (Peter Deutsch for US Senate) TV Alert! U.S. Rep. Peter Deutsch on “Hardball” with Chris Mathews tonight! 7:30 pm – MSNBC Peter Deutsch will join Chris Mathews on Hardball tonight to discuss the recent decision by the Florida Legislature that empowered Gov. Jeb Bush to order the reinstatement of intravenous fluids to Terri Schiavo. Congressman Deutsch spent 10 years in the Florida Legislature and was involved in the ethical, moral and legal issues regarding the “right to die.” REMEMBER TO TUNE IN TONIGHT AT 7:30PM ON MSNBC Paid for by Deutsch for Senate

Another proud PREMATURE DEATH ADVOCATE...


1,436 posted on 10/23/2003 9:52 AM MDT by floriduh voter (Breaking at baynews9.com & press Releases at terrisfight.org)

___________________________________________

To: floriduh voter; maxplunder

Will do - looking for someone who may be able to post that on DU.


1,442 posted on 10/23/2003 9:57 AM MDT by Budge ( <>< .)

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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006219/replies?comment=1436


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/finduser?user=maxplunder

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Don't worry, Max. We're keeping up with the story. And we'll be DARNED if the federal government or any state government is going to usurp our ability and our right to make these kinds of decisions for ourselves.

(Thanks for the heads up on Deutsch tonight though. Maybe he can help to restore some sanity.)

[Cocoa]

5. wow, that was fast!

good job. :toast:

I was thinking Mr. Plunder was Chris Matthews, whoring for himself for a change. :-)

[Maxplunder]

7. Hmmmm

I don't know, but I have been very impressed with CNN on this topic. FNC hasn't been airing much news on Terri at all.

PS It's just Max not Mr. Plunder

[janx]

12. Have you seen the other Schiavo threads here?

They are in both GD and LBN.

Some people agree with you. Others don't (vehemently).

[janx]

14. I talk to freepers all the time. I recognized Max from some

threads over there.

The Schiavo threads there are...well, hysterical--not in the funny sense, either.

I have never experienced such verbal abuse on any message board anywhere as I did there, and I was polite. There are some very cruel people taking part.

Not that Max ever acted that way, to my knowledge.

[Maxplunder]

16. What is your handle on FR?

what is your handle on FR?

[janx]

21. I'm not going there! They'd kick me off in a minute!

But I enjoy corresponding with some freepers sometimes. Most of them are of the "paleo" bent or are small l libertarians.

And for the record, though I noted you're a freeper, I have not and will not push the abuse button on you.

[Maxplunder]

22. I hope i don't get kicked off

just for being registered on both DU & FR

[janx]

24. I hope not too. I sure won't have a part in it.

.

[Maxplunder]

6. It's good

I just wanted to make sure the heads up on this was everywhere.
I think most everyone agrees on this

[janx]

10. I'm interested in this case...a great deal.

That a governor would deny a woman who has been in a persistent vegetative state for 13 years her right to go to God in peace is unconscionable.

Small government, Max. That's the key. Keep the government out of what should between family and God.

The Bushes don't seem to understand that idea.

[Maxplunder]

15. Well

From all the videos on various websites, I cannot see how she is a "vegetable." Seems pretty aware to me.

But I'm all for small unabtrusive Govt.

[mrgorth]

17. Great commentary on this on NPR

They had a bioethicist on saying how these people can appear to be acting consciously but they're really not. Even if she were it's clear she's in a living hell. Let her go. These people are hoping for non-existant intensive therapy.

[janx]

18. Right. People in a PVS state are missing the cerebral cortex,

but the brain stem is still intact. Take a look at this (I've been posting it everywhere):

http://seeingthedifference.berkeley.edu/schneiderman.html

Now, just a brief lesson in neurology. You have in your brain the cerebral cortex, which is actually a very thin structure on the outer surface of your cerebral hemispheres. Four to six minutes of anoxia, lack of oxygen, destroys that completely. The rest of your brain, particularly the brain stem, can survive for fifteen or twenty minutes without oxygen. That disparity accounts for what we now see in as many as 30,000 to 40,000 people being kept alive in permanent unconsciousness. Usually the cause is failed CPR, or occasionally a stroke or a motor vehicle accident of some sort. What happens is that that part of the brain, the cerebral cortex, which is us, our personality, who we are, how we think--our capacity to experience, see, hear, think, emote--that may be permanently destroyed. Whereas the rest of us, the brain stem, which gives us the ability to breath, digest, all the organ functions, that could be kept alive, and in many cases has been kept going for decades. And so that has given us this condition which was first diagnosed in 1972. It's really interesting, that that's a very new disease as far as medicine is concerned, and, in fact, it's an iatrogenic disease. Vegetative state is the condition, as we call it, but persistent or permanent is what we do to keep that condition going. So in a sense, that's a very important notion.

Now, all of us who do ethics consultations, have had the experience, and I've had several, where families have insisted that their loved one be kept alive in a permanent vegetative state, permanently unconscious. And this is a clinical diagnosis. If someone, for example, has persistent vegetative state, where their eyes may open and close and they have all sorts of reflex capacities, that's because that part of the brain stem, the reticular activating system that's responsible for sleep/wake may be temporarily impaired, but then recover. And so they're unconscious. Their eyes may open, and they sleep, but they're completely unaware. Families will sometimes demand that physicians keep such patients alive--and it's very simple, a feeding tube and good nursing care will do it. There's nothing more that has to be done, if that's the condition we're talking about.

Now, I've either been involved in or heard of cases where families have demanded that this be done, and the patient has been kept alive for eighteen months although there is no realistic chance that the patient will ever recover. I have to admit that today, hearing about embalming made me think of the parallel, that this was a family that needed to see that person in an embalmed state. It's truly nothing less than that, if you consider the person, the capacity of the person to interact.

[Maxplunder]

19. Maybe so

I can see where you are comming from on that. But even if that is the case, Starving and Dehydrating her to death is not the way to let her die. Her Husband wouldn't even let the priest preform Last Rights with her properly. How many people would complain if we started starving: animals to put them down, or criminals to execute them.

[janx]

23. True. But the lack of the cortex means that she doesn't suffer

pain. There's nothing there to register it.

As for Last Rites, I can't understand why that shouldn't happen. I heard about the priest trying to put a small piece of the host in her mouth, and that might not have been wise.

But holding back Last Rites seems a little harsh.

Not that it would matter much anyway; I think that Terri is with God as it is and that keeping what is left of her this way is really demeaning to her memory. Maybe that's the way the husband feels about it. I know he has started another family, etc., but that doesn't mean he doesn't love and respect her or the memory of her.

Also, there is such enmity between Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers that any Schindler activity is probably considered a bit suspect. They were in contempt of court a couple of times. A lot of anti-Michael information seems an awful lot like rumor to me. It's as if people have made him out to be some kind of demon, and the rumors about him grow exponentially. What if he really DID make sure she had three years of therapy before the doctors told him there was no hope? What if his recent statement is true? And what if, after realizing there was no hope, he tried his best for another two years before falling in love with another woman?

Let's review his statement:

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGA9DXB31MD.html

Statement By Michael Schiavo

Published: Oct 20, 2003


Last Wednesday, my wife's feeding tube was removed.
For over 6 years, I have struggled with the Schindlers in court. On Wednesday, I joined them in grief. I understand what the Schindlers are going through at this time. I feel the same loss.

For years after this happened to Terri, I tried desperately to find a cure for her. I went from one doctor to another. Almost all of them told me there was no possibility she would recover. Any doctor that gave me a glimmer of hope that some new treatment or therapy would work was given free reign with Terri. I would do anything to make her well.

I took Terri to California. I stayed with her while doctors performed an experimental procedure to implant electrodes in her brain to stimulate its function. I spent months working with her - hopeful of a cure. Months later, the doctors told me the electrodes were not working.

I took Terri to Mediplex, in Bradenton, Florida, which is a residential rehabilitation facility that specializes in brain injuries. She spent months there in intensive physical, speech, and occupational therapy and testing.

Finally, the doctors and therapist told me and the Schindlers they could do nothing more for her. I hired a private duty aide 8 hours a day to take Terri on outings to parks and museums trying to stimulate her - looking for any sign of life, any flicker of hope. There was none - ever.

Over the years, I had three swallowing tests performed on Terri in the hope that some of the therapies would allow her to be weaned off the feeding tube. The test all showed no change, and I was advised she could not swallow food. Even now, the nursing home staff says that sometimes Terri gags and chokes on the moisture from the swabs they use to moisten her lips.

The reports you heard from nursing home aides that Terri was responsive years ago are not true. I would give anything if they were. Those aides cared for Terri during the time that I was desperately seeking a cure for her. I was so frustrated that I could not help Terri. I am sure that I was sometimes unkind to the aides - even shouted at them. This was not because I wanted Terri dead, but because I desperately wanted her alive. I blamed myself because I could not bring her back.

It seemed to me, during that time, that the aides never did enough for Terri. Some days they did not put her makeup on. I would storm into the nursing home insisting that they do so. I knew Terri always wanted to look her best. Sometimes, the aides did not get her dressed and sitting up until late in the morning. They did not always get her hair combed. They sometimes failed to give her vitamins and medications on time. At each of those failures, I became enraged and lashed out. I felt so helpless. Each small infraction reminded me how powerless I was to really help Terri. I admit that I yelled at the aides and I am now deeply sorry for that behavior. Much like the Schindlers now, I stubbornly resisted any suggestion that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and would never get better.

I never wanted Terri to die. I still don't. After more than seven years of desperately searching for a cure for Terri, the death of my own mother helped me realize that I was fooling myself. More important, I was hiding behind my hope, and selfishly ignoring Terri's wishes. I wanted my wife to be with me so much that I denied her true condition.

Terri told me on several occasions before this happened that she would not want to live in her current condition. If we had been older, I am sure she would have signed a living will making it clear that she did not to be kept alive on tubes and machines. She never had the chance.

That left me to carry out her wishes. It has been hard. In fact, it is the hardest thing I have ever done. In the end, I did what I believe Terri would have wanted me to do.

Some people do not agree with the decisions the court made to remove Terri's feeding tube. I struggle to accept it myself. But I know in my heart that it is right, and it is what Terri wants. There is no longer any realistic hope of Terri's recovery. Perhaps there never was, but I had to try - just as the Schindlers have tried. The reality is that Terri left us 13 years ago, and none of us can bring her back.

Terri's parents and family may visit with her as much as they choose in the days to come. I, and my friends and relatives, will be there as well to spend time with Terri, as we all grieve. Please pray for us all.

[shrike]

27. My concerns also involve the feeding tube

Do we really want to go there? It's obvious this woman is not going to improve, not after 13 years. But do we, as a society, want to sanction this solution? On the other hand, what other choice is there? Perhaps her parents will be willing to look after her as is. But they'll need help, and help is expensive. There's been talk of a trust fund: is it enough to take care of her for 10 to 15 years? After it's gone, what then? Are Florida taxpayers willing to shoulder the burden of her care? This sounds terribly crass and insensitive, I know, but ...

[janx]

30. When somebody is in a PVS, removing the feeding tube

is pretty humane. S/he lapses into a coma and dies quietly, from what I've read. Also, people who die natural deaths stop eating and drinking after a time. There are natural processes within the body that are encouraged by this and actually help the patient. (Though drops of water in the mouth and around the lips help.)

To you or to me, withholding food and water sounds cruel and inhumane, but it's actually recommended by physicians and ethicists in the very final stage of life.

About the money--current reports have it down to around $65,000.

You can do the math.

[janx]

20. Max, see my post #18. PVS is really terrible because

since there is still some brain stem activity that causes reflexive motions (eye movement, grimaces, stretched smiles, etc.). These are understandably misinterpreted by loved ones and fuel their hopes.

Without the cerebral cortex, there's no way she can benefit from any more therapy. (I know the rumors are that she never had any, but she did for about three years. It's in court findings somewhere.)

[janx]

32. It's tough to see the videos, I agree.

Especially the ones with her parents present.

[janx]

13. We call Mathews Tweety because he has a huge head and

he talks very fast.

[SoCalDem]

28. And sometimes the clairol gets mixed wrong and his hair is

verrrrrry yellow....

although he really sounds more like sylvestre or yosemite sam...what with all the spluttering and spittle he tosses around when he get to full throttle..

[janx]

33. How about when he says:

HAH!

[SoCalDem]

34. My mother's parrot made that same sound...HAH !!

:)

[corarose]

8. I hate LARDBALL

Tweety and the Rethuglican party has taught me how to hate and I HATE HIM.

[Cocoa]

11. lol

I never heard "lardball" before, I like it. :-)

[corarose]

26. Did you ever notice how he looks at himself in the camera?

His head is so damn fat.

[janx]

25. You hate Tweety? I mean maybe you don't like him, but

how could you hate him? He's just a fast-talking big head!

[corarose]

9. Welcome to DU (BTW)

We refer to Mathews as "Tweety".

[SoCalDem]

29. Too bad that peter deutsch is only invited on to talk about a

poor "nearly brain dead woman", that no one wants to see suffer, no matter what happens to her..

Deutsch would be a good guest for those of us who would rather see him talk about the "nearly brain dead" *..

[janx]

31. !!!! But I like Deutsch. His take on this would be interesting.

Too bad I have to miss it.

[Dixie_Lady]

35. Thought y'all might want to see this

Father: Brain-damaged daughter responsive

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- The father who has fought for more than five years to keep his brain-damaged daughter alive said when he visited her Thursday, she turned down his kisses, saying, "Uh-uh."

"I was in front of her and I'm kissing her on the cheek, and she doesn't like that," said a smiling Bob Schindler after visiting his 39-year-old daughter Terri Schiavo.

He said he then asked, "'Do you want me to kiss you again?' She goes, 'Uh-uh. Uh-uh.' That's what I got from her."

Terri Schiavo's brain was damaged in 1990 when she collapsed from heart failure, the result of doctors' misdiagnosis. She recovered from the heart attack, but oxygen was cut off to her brain, leaving her in what doctors call a "persistent vegetative state."

Eight years later, her husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, filed a court petition to remove his wife's feeding tube as he claims his wife wanted, according to the St. Petersburg Times. The woman did not have a will.

Terri Schiavo's family fought the move, maintaining that their daughter responds to them and should be kept alive with a feeding tube.

Schindler said Wednesday his daughter is "alert, active, a live human being" and said videotapes that showed her condition moved Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to act on her behalf.....

....Michael Schiavo has not allowed the family to see Terri Schiavo's medical reports, but Wednesday he allowed them to visit her.

Schindler said when he saw his daughter Wednesday night she looked withdrawn, but "today it's just the opposite."
An ambulance returned Terri Schiavo to hospice care in Florida on Wednesday evening.

He said his daughter looked a little weak from not having food for a week, but "other than that, she really looks good, I mean, too good.

"She looks like she did before this incident with the tube," he said, adding that the family is trying to get access to medical reports on her current condition.

Asked if the husband may finally give in to the family's demands and just walk away from the entire case, Schindler said he was unaware of any such possibility, but would definitely welcome it.

"Michael Schiavo is not our primary concern," the father said. "It's to see her back to the condition she should be in."

Independent guardian to be appointed
A Pinellas County Circuit Court judge this week ordered lawyers for both sides to agree within five days on an independent guardian for Terri, as required under the law signed by the governor.

The new guardian would become Terri Schiavo's advocate in legal proceedings, but Michael Schiavo would remain the decision-maker.

If an agreement cannot be reached, the judge said he will appoint Dr. Jay Wolfson, a professor of health and law at Stetson University, as the guardian. Wolfson also works for the College of Public Health at Florida State University and the College of Medicine at the University of South Florida.
Terri Schiavo

Terri Schiavo's parents have accused their son-in-law of selfish motivations. Michael Schiavo -- who has a girlfriend with whom he has a child -- won $1.2 million in a malpractice case against his wife's gynecologist and another $250,000 in a settlement with her general practitioner. Most of that money was to go toward her treatment.

In addition, he received $300,000 for pain and suffering and loss of consortium.

Michael Schiavo has declined to comment on whether there is an outstanding life insurance policy on his wife.

Full text: http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/23/coma.woman/

As someone posted yesterday, $300,000 can get you a lot of consortium.