So...the other candidates have to stop attacking Dean?

[WilliamPitt]

1. It's primary season.

2. It's primary season.

3. Glass houses break real easy.

4. It's primary season.

====

Dean Has Ace Up His Sleeve

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/129765p-115983c.html

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean likes to present himself as a breath of fresh air: He won't join the cynical, insider political culture that he repeatedly describes in speeches as "Say whatever it takes to get elected."

So it was with considerable glee this week that a top aide to a Dean opponent informed me that the former Vermont governor has just hired killer gumshoe Ace Smith to gather dirt on political rivals.

The very same Ace Smith who ran "oppo research" for sharp-elbowed, soon-to-be-ex-California Gov. Gray Davis - "puke campaigns," in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

"Ace certainly has that jugular instinct," says an operative who has worked closely with him on Davis' campaigns.

[DS1]

1. DUCK Season!

RABBIT Season!

/sorry

[KittyWampus]

40. RABBIT Season!

DUCK Season!

[StopTheMorans]

2. when in Rome

n/t

[WilliamPitt]

3. I'm not saying he's wrong to do this

But the cries from the partisans here are getting a little preposterous.

[StopTheMorans]

5. that's why i've been out of GD for the past month or so

for the most part. was just getting sick of the hypocrisy from all sides (i.e. supporters of every candidate), and needed a break:)

[Renew Deal]

4. To be or not to be.

That always puzzled me.

[TLM]

6. I do not think the position was that they need to stop attacking Dean...

as much as it was that their attacks on Dean are lame and making them look bad.

I mean have you seen some of the quotes they are tearing apart and spining to prop up the medicare attacks?


Dean was expanding medicare in vermont to cover more people than ever... his beef with medicare was with the administration of the program, which he wanted to cut in order to expand coverage.

However they try to spin it like he wants to get rid of medicare like Gingrinch did.

[sangh0]

8. Yeah, right

Dean's supporters are upset because the attacks on Dean are weak and ineffective. They were hoping their candidate would be subjected to more crippling attacks.

Sounds like "Bring 'em on!"

[Woodstock]

12. Almost - I would like to see attacks if they are based in fact

and not just mudslinging. I figure the candidates will mudsling to try and sell the audience a bill of goods. That's politics. But here it would be nice if we could talk facts. While I support Dean, my vote is by no means a done deal. If there is a problem, let me know, but why waste time with games. At this point, I'm ready to vote for any of them if I'm so convinced. But mudslinging won't convince me.

[sangh0]

14. TLM, is that you?

Or have the other posters decided you can use the help?

[Woodstock]

19. maybe the other posters also disagree with you

has that ever ocurred to you?

[sangh0]

54. Maybe

but don't you think that TLM is the one most qualified to clarify the meaning of his own posts?

[Hep]

21. hyuck

You're right. We should WANT the criticism to be based on lies.

[revcarol]

10. You're talking about Medicaid,

a different program. Get yer facts straight.

[sangh0]

17. revcarol, stop confusing the issue with facts!!!

Didn't you hear what TLM said....It's lame! :-)

[Hep]

24. My understanding

was that he expanded both. Am I wrong? Show me!

*looks at watch*

[T Roosevelt]

7. Hmmm...

The very same Ace Smith who ran "oppo research" for sharp-elbowed, soon-to-be-ex-California Gov. Gray Davis - "puke campaigns," in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Julien Sorel]

9. If I remember correctly,

when Clark hired Fabiani, the Deanites were howling to the moon with righteous indignation, predicting that Fabiani would turn Clark into some vicious, negative beast like, well, like Dean is. Now that that hasn't happened, but Dean continues to be the same mealy-mouthed shitheel he was the day he started his campaign, it's some kind of smart move on Dean's part.

Join Howard Dean! Throw your sense of ethics and standards out the window! Lose your dignity, but keep your anger!

[StopTheMorans]

11. pot, meet kettle

if you're looking for anger, you need look no farther than a mirror :eyes:

[eissa]

15. What are you talking about?!

If anyone has conducted his campaign ethically, it's Howard! At least he has the ability to focus on the issues and talk about them for more than 2 minutes without bashing one of his opponents; something none of the other candidates has been able to do (especially that idiot Lieberman).

[Julien Sorel]

20. Please show me one instance where Clark has

bashed any other candidate. I won't be holding my breath for your apology or retraction.

Dean, of course is another matter entirely. Try looking up Dean and cockroaches, Dean and his claims of being 'from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party' Dean and his false claims of Clark being a Republican; Dean and his false claims that Clark supported the war; Dean and his attack ads in New Hampshire; Dean Dean Dean Dean...

I hope you have a better idea 'what I'm talking about' now.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

35. Sorry, I'm not.

Dean made a flat out statement: 'Clark was a Republican 25 days ago.' It was false, and Dean knew it when he said it. That is a lie. Dean never had the grace to retract it, either, as befits a liar.

As for Clark's position on Iraq, that was one statement culled out of a year's worth of work which clearly demonstrated Clark thought the war was a bad idea, and he clarified it the next day. To use that statement to pretend Clark was somehow pro-war, especially given Dean's many meetings with Clark in which they discussed the war and foreign policy in general, Dean knew where Clark stood on the war. But it was convenient for Dean to lie, so he did it.

I left one out: a week ago, Dean said 'Clark hasn't attacked me, so I won't attack him.' He then immediately trotted out his 'Clark is a Republican who supported the war' speil. It's just Dean being Dean: a sawed off, chubby little liar with the ethics of a snake.

Got any other lies you want to discuss?

[StopTheMorans]

36. "a sawed off, chubby little liar with the ethics of a snake."

nice, stick to your uniform fetishism, and I'll stick to supporting candidates based on their positions, and not how good they look primped and polished with their 4 stars on...
on edit: deleted extra word

[Julien Sorel]

39. In other words, you have nothing left to say.

Next?

[StopTheMorans]

46. no, I just get sick of the tone of your posts

i will only speak of the ones present in this thread. THey are inflammatory, lower the tone of discourse, and even when they do address a substantive issue, they do it in a ridiculous fashion (i.e. WTF cares if Dean is short? that's why i made the clark comment, it's equally ridiculous). And since you've lowered the tone, I refuse to play by your rules and answer the meaningless accusations you've thrown out. Until Clark has a chance to actually vote on some things, I'm not voting for him (unless he gets the damn nomination). I like some POLICY EXPERIENCE in politics before I trust someone, and Clark's lifetime voting record is much more Republican than Democratic (from what he's disclosed, and I'll even take his word for that). As for him waffling on the war, he did it, and it wasn't just one quote (his quote on April 10th supporting how the administration was handling the war comes to mind). Hope I didn't waste too much of the time you would have spent inventing "clever" descriptions of Dean's appearance to amuse yourself.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StopTheMorans]

48. "You then ran away from that"

but, my good man, if you look at the last post I made, I still insist that Dean didn't lie, and I stick to the claims made earlier. Even I will admit that you can grasp that that does not constitute "running away". Good day to you sir, we're not getting anywhere with this:)

[Julien Sorel]

49. You 'insist,' but provide no real evidence.

Buh bye! I hope you had half the fun I did! Is that another emotion for you?

[Julien Sorel]

29. A substantive reply.

Got any more? :eyes:

[StopTheMorans]

31. so now you've shown that you can display both

anger and feign sarcasm within the same thread, that's impressive! Do you have any more emotional states you would like to share with us this afternoon:)?

[Julien Sorel]

38. I hate to be the bearer of bad news,

but sarcasm isn't an emotion. :shrug:

[StopTheMorans]

41. oh, please, the slings and arrows are too much for me

on this bleak New England afternoon! Please accept my humblest apologies, and let me issue a retraction/correction: "Do you have any other emotions/attidudes you would like to share with the rest of us". So sorry...yeah

[CWebster]

13. The NY Daily News?

The Washington Times thread was just locked due to source and you are using a tabloid?

[Woodstock]

16. true, why not just quote Newsmax?

[sangh0]

56. Funny. You had no problem with the NY Post

when it criticized Kerry.

[Hep]

18. Have to?

They don't have to stop attacking him. They have to stop attacking him with false information.

[mlawson]

22. Did NONE of the candidates learn anything from 2000?????

Gore and Bradley chopped each other up, over and over. Does anyone think that it helped Gore later, in November??

Why the F--- can't they ALL push their own messages, and leave the other guys alone??? Negative campaigning only works when the repukes do it!! Yes, they are differentiating their messages from those of their rivals, but the apolitical masses do not see it that way -- they remember only the negatives.

[Julien Sorel]

26. The 'differentiation' is just a rationalization.

There isn't a dime's worth of difference between Dean, Kerry, and Clark on the actual issues; Dean has to lie and distort to create the illusion of difference, in fact. People run attack ads to tear the other guy down, not to 'differentiate' themselves.

[mlawson]

43. I was just being polite,

using DU PC wording. Yes, it's to tear the other guy(s) down, and it just amazes me that they have not yet figured out that it greatly harms the eventual nominee!

I am gratified so far, that my favorite, Edwards, has refrained from this practice. And gee, the others mostly let him alone as well. :o

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. Actually, Edwards Has Slammed Clark a Few Times, Too

They were a little milder than some of the other candidate's smear attempts, but they were there nonetheless.

DTH

[Woodstock]

53. agree, they all need to tone it down

they need to go after Bush first and foremost

challenge each other's views, but none of the blatant falsehoods they've been bandying about - we are too clever to fall for it, and will just end up sick of them all

[CMT]

23. The interesting thing about that thread "Gep and Kerry should stop..

attacking Dean" is that while it has over a 100 responses only 15 people contributed to it and the person who wrote it said that he wasn't a "Deanper". Very few Dean supporters actually responded so I don't think anyone can really say it is the consensus thinking of Dean supporters that Dean should be laid off by other candidates. I certainly don't. I think as you suggest that it is the primary season and Gep and Kerry have every right to attack on what they think is a legitamite reason and Dean has a right to respond to those attacks. Remember folks, Politics is not for sissies.

[Hep]

27. You're absolutely right

Politics is not for sissies. And everyone has the right to attack. But to lie when you know it is a lie is a different attack than a criticism of policy.

[w13rd0]

25. No, they don't...

....they just shouldn't act shocked when the Dean campaign responds...

[livinontheedge]

30. Wouldn't it be easier to just give the attack ad money to the GOP?

Ultimately, the Bush people get the real benefit of dems attacking other dems. Talk about shooting a hole in your own foot.

[killbotfactory]

32. The guy who started a thread saying this wasn't even a Dean supporter

The other people can throw all the eggs they want. Dean can handle it.

Although I do find it funny they are complaining about Dean going "negative" in new adds after relentlessly bashing him for over a month.

Politics are funny.

[GumboYaYa]

33. It's politics, it ain't pretty.

I'm a strong Dean supporter, but I'm not naive about politics.

These guys are playing for the big prize. If Dean can't handle the meek attempts at attacks by Gep and Kerry, he sure won't survive the Repuke machine. Let's get the negatives out there now and then let the voters decide.

I want to see Dean to go toe to toe with the other Dem candidates and let the chips fall where they may. If a different candidate wins, I'll be the first one signing up to help her or him beat Bush.

[w13rd0]

42. I know, and in interviews...

...Dean has said that much of this is to be expected, and most of it doesn't really bother him, it's politics. Heck, didn't Dean work on Geps 1988 bid or something? Furthermore, no reason one should think "killer gumshoes" aren't being retained to do a lil digging on Bush, rather than opposition.

[GumboYaYa]

45. Hey, what's up?

I went to the Meetup at Blueberry Hill last month. Were you at Bevo?

I'll be going to all of the Meetups in St. Louis in November to preach about canvassing. Hopefully, we will cross paths.

We are canvassing U City on Saturday starting at 10:00. Email me if you are interested.

[w13rd0]

51. Not much...

...I didn't go, had to work, but I was considering going to Blueberry Hill for the next one. I'll PM you on other things...

[Demobrat]

34. No. They should keep attacking and Dean should

take the high road and ignore all attacks and distortions, especially distortions. How else can Kerry win?

[FlemingsGhost]

37. Tsk, tsk... Will. You should have known better.

I come to LBN for news, and to GD for the comedy. The Clark/Dean flame wars are almost as entertaining as the infamous Dem/Green "debates."

Alas, I don't have cable...

[kentuck]

44. tsk...tsk...anybody read this article?

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/10/franke-ruta-g.html

<snip>
The smallest crowd of Howard Dean's Sleepless Summer Tour in late August consisted of about 450 people. They'd gathered at the airport outside Boise, Idaho, on a splash of tarmac surrounded by sparkling, cloudless sky. There, where the crumpled, arid desert gave way to the pine-covered Boise Foothills, amid the mingled scents of jet fuel and dust, they waited for former Gov. Howard Dean (D-Vt.) to arrive.
When he did, Dean supporter Delmar Stone approached the microphone and introduced the presidential hopeful to the crowd by way of a jaw-dropping comparison. "The last time I was this excited about someone who could change the world was when I heard about Jesus!" Stone said. "Oh, come on!" exclaimed the man standing next to me. It was such an over-the-top thing to say, seeming to reflect more than anything what a neglected bunch the Idaho Democrats are. Few national Democratic candidates come to stump in Boise, and, when they do, the beleaguered partisans get a little overexcited.

But Stone, I learned as I listened to Dean supporters around the country, was not so unusual after all. In Austin, Texas, Melissa Sternberg told me she'd gotten so excited after she caught Dean on the Charlie Rose Show in June that she'd become "born-again Dean." On popular political blogs like Daily Kos, readers routinely discuss Dean supporters' "messianic" zeal. Backers of retired Gen. Wesley Clark accuse the Deanies of promoting a "Church of Dean." In each case, the choice of words is instructive, and probably not accidental.

...more

[dsc]

50. Just curious but I remember

when Lieberman hired Gary South, a former Davis staffer, it was South who was blamed for these awful campaigns. Now it is supposedly Smith. I wonder if Kerry or Gephardt or Clark hires staffer x from the Davis camp tomorrow if staffer x won't be the responsible party then according to the media.

[Classical_Liberal]

55. When I see this tidbit published in a non-neocon rag

maybe I will take it seriously.