TRANSCRIPT of Michael Moore on Wesley Clark

[DoveTurnedHawk]

And then people say, well (in a mocking voice): "But Mike, but Mike, he voted for Reagan, Clark voted for Reagan!"

Yeah? So? So did most of America! You know? Do you wanna win? I mean, the only way you win, you see, is if you get most of America on your side. And if someone who voted for Reagan now says, "I'm joining your team, I don't believe in that any more," we have to open up our arms! This is why people don't like the left! This is why people don't like liberals! You know?

(In a mocking voice): "No, no, no, no, no, he, he voted for Reagan, no, no, not pure, not pure, don't like him, no, no!"

That's why nobody wants to join our side, we're so, like, up on our high horse! You know? What do you say to working class America, there's all these people who voted for Reagan, that now realize, they were duped! They were had! They're worse off now after 20 years of Republicanism!

You know? You, what do you say (in a mocking voice): "Nope, can't come to our side, you voted for Reagan!"

Jeez! I mean, come on, folks! You know? I don't know.

(In a mocking voice): "He was the Butcher of Kosovo!" That's the other one. (In a mocking voice): "He was the Butcher…Clark was the butcher of Kosovo!"

I've heard, I've heard an alternate version of the story, that was in the New York Times and the Washington Post last week. About why he was fired. Because he was trying to stop the genocide in Kosovo, in a way that would cost, even, that would cost, that would result in fewer civilian losses. I'd like to hear the story, I don't know, I mean, I'm just saying, I don't know, that's why I'm waiting to see, you know, what's being said here. I'd like to know.

But I'll tell you this much, folks. We're not fighting the Kosovo war right now. Don't let the professional left drag you into an argument that is a sideshow. We are fighting the Iraq war right now, that's the war we've gotta stop, and that's the war he says he will stop! That's the war he says he'll tell the American people the truth about how Bush has fought an immoral war! And that's what we need, we need that on our side.

www.liberalresurgent.com/mooreclark.mp3

DTH

1. Well, I'm still for Dean

I've got to agree with Michael about the significance of Clark's vote for Reagan.
Not to be too agreeable though, didn't he also vote for Nixon? that's a little harder to swallow.

I like Clark's positions today, but still don't see what is so distinguishable about him aside from the fact that he's in the military. (Would some Clark supporters enlighten me on this?)
Haven't we had enough of the military in this country?
Admittedly, it plays well in a general election and maybe that's what it's going to take to get rid of Bush.

[vi5]

2. I'm not a Clark supporter but.....

If he was against the Iraq war (although my sticking point is the same as it was with Dean...hypothetically talking about how you would cast a vote that isn't yours to cast is a lot different than actually being in that position and casting it a particular way)

If he is for a woman's right to choose.

If he is for affirmative action.

If he is for tax cuts only when they may sound economic sense.

If he is for shoring up medicare and social security

AND as a bonus he has the military credentials that would make a lot of undecided swing voters feel more comfortable voting for him.

Then that's good enough for me.

3. I know you're rightr

It's just that I was brought up in a pacifist family (my Grandfather was a conscientious objector in WWI, that's how far back it goes), so I have an ambivalence about the military.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

4. Here's My Take

I like Clark's positions today, but still don't see what is so distinguishable about him aside from the fact that he's in the military. (Would some Clark supporters enlighten me on this?)

In terms of Clark's positions, they're distinguishable from Dean's in at least two major ways. First, Clark supports up to a 25% CUT in the military budget, in addition to merely changing the prioritization of individual military budget line items as Dean has proposed (no other candidate except Kucinich has endorsed cutting the military budget, and Kucinich has only talked about 15%). Second, Clark supports a rollback of only the tax cuts for the wealthiest 2% (those making $200K or more), which puts him with Kerry and several others, and is in contrast to positions taken by Dean and Gephardt (roll back all tax cuts, including those on the poor and middle-class).

Another big difference is in tone, IMO. Clark is invoking optimistic visions of patriotism and national service as a way of taking back the concept from the Republicans, who have used patriotism as a way of crushing dissent. I haven't seen any other Democrat do this as well as Clark has.

Haven't we had enough of the military in this country?

I'm not sure how to take that comment.

On the military, I think Clark makes the distinction of "people, not weapons" very well. I also think he's one of the military guys on OUR side, which is a very good thing. Clark is also the only one of the candidates, to the best of my knowledge, to address the problems inherent in the military-industrial complex, describing the Pentagon as a "want machine" and he's the only Democrat with the credentials to be able to remotely CONSIDER the possibility of military budget cuts, especially with a Republican Congress.

Admittedly, it plays well in a general election and maybe that's what it's going to take to get rid of Bush.

Indeed, and that is a huge selling point for Clark, IMO.

DTH

[Bertrand]

6. Nice Post, DTH

:thumbsup:

7. thanks

for your response.
Gives me stuff to think about.
As for how to take my comment on the military, check what I wrote in post 3 about pacifism and you'll see.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

9. Gotcha

To attempt to address your concerns, Clark has stated vigorously that he fought in Vietnam and elsewhere for the right of people like yourself to be able to exercise your rights and dissent. That is a big thing with him, that patriotism in a democracy allows, in fact demands, dissent.

And while Clark is obviously no pacifist, IMO he has a much more dovish foreign policy than most of the rest of the field. He supports internationalization more than anyone, and part of his stump speech is how he supports the use of force ONLY, ONLY, ONLY as a last resort.

Most military folks I know are much less interested in sending people off to die in foreign wars (unlike the Republican chickenhawks), simply because they know first-hand the horrors of war. Clark is exactly that way, IMO.

DTH

[HootieMcBoob]

19. exactly

On the military, I think Clark makes the distinction of "people, not weapons" very well. I also think he's one of the military guys on OUR side, which is a very good thing. Clark is also the only one of the candidates, to the best of my knowledge, to address the problems inherent in the military-industrial complex, describing the Pentagon as a "want machine" and he's the only Democrat with the credentials to be able to remotely CONSIDER the possibility of military budget cuts, especially with a Republican Congress.

This is my feeling as well. He has the ability to do the "nixon to china" thing in the area of military spending, and a whole host of other issues. He could be great.

[Kahuna]

22. Clark said yesterday.. He was part of the military industrial..

complex that Eisenhower warned about. He knows everyone in it and how it works. He said that he will not approve spending just because it is rubberstamped, "top secret."

[RandomUser]

25. I really liked that comment

He doesn't equivocate about the MIC.

[DemCam]

5. I've always been opposed to generals

until Clark. He sneaked up on me...and its not his looks...although I sometimes think he's looking mighty fine.

What sneaked up on me was what he was saying about patriotism that hit a deep emotional chord in me...especially since it came from a man who had devoted his life to the service of his country. For the first time in many years, I realized I could be proud to be an American again, instead of cringing...that maybe I could wave my flag, too.

I loved Bill Clinton and thought he was the best President of my lifetime, but there was always that little taint that followed him. Was it true or not? What scandal was going to break in the next minute? I stayed both defensive and exhausted or relieved.

For me there is an idealism, a passion...an innocence? that just releases me from cynicism. I have hope when I see him...hope for something good.

I could just not care one whit about the minutia of his beliefs or who he voted for or who he worked for. He just has that certain very credible "something" that all the others lack.

Just one woman's opinion.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. GREAT Post!

You really hit the nail on the head, for me. That's pretty much how I feel as well, and I'm a damn pragmatic cynic, generally speaking.

:-)

DTH

[DemCam]

16. And there was one other realization.

Our country was attacked, making the threat of terrorism hideously real. We have to battle this world scourge. Whether we like it or not...and I don't...the military will be at work for some time to come.

Did I support going to war in Iraq? Absolutely not! I didn't even like the wholesale bombing in Afghanistan, though it at least seemed to be where the bad guys were hiding.

So...if we have to face the fact that Terrorism is on the world's stage at the moment...then why not have someone who has worked defending this country and working with our allies for years and has a deep understanding of military and diplomatic efforts in these times...why not have that man as our president?

Instead of buffoons who use world events to shape their own covert goals.

[Kahuna]

21. I voted for Nixon! I was a registered Dem...

and it was my very first vote. I voted for Nixon because of what Moore alluded to. The lefties were a big, humongous turnoff. They went out and got the weekest candidate they could find and it was a total mess. I hold that against the lefties to this day.

[poskonig]

10. I don't understand Moore.

Gore was Satan, but Clark is our savior? He isn't consistent.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Perhaps Moore "Evolved" in His Views, Just Like Dean

I don't understand Moore.

Gore was Satan, but Clark is our savior? He isn't consistent.

I cannot believe any Dean supporter is raising CONSISTENCY as an issue.

DTH

[poskonig]

12. At least Dean is a Democrat!

unlike some people (wink wink). B-)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

14. O Irony

Your post is simply delicious, especially in light of Moore's entire point as described in the transcript that started this thread.

DTH, Who's Sick of Purists

[wyldwolf]

15. Don't let the "professional left" drag you into an argument that is a ...

..side show...

13. good one!

I was going to play too and say it's probably because Gore is probably nota member of the NRA like Moore is.

[vi5]

17. I have issues with Moore but he never said Gore was satan....

And if I remember correctly he broke with Nader once Nader started campaigning in tight states which he promised he wouldn't do.

And whether it was e-mail spam drivle or not I remember an e-mail I got attributed to Moore that didn't put Gore down as much as recommend voting for Nader if you were undecided. I remember it said distinctly that "Gore is a good man and if you already plan on voting for him please do so."

Plus I think like many of us he realizes that the stakes are way too high this time around.

[TacticalPeek]

18. Moore has been educated by the aftermath of 2000.

[DemCam]

20. So true.

I remember an excruciating post he made on his website after 9/11...about the stench in his New York apartment. That event changed many of us forever...even if the piquancy recedes...there is still that instant remembering.

[Hippo_Tron]

23. Reagan used to be a liberal...

And he sure as hell wasn't one when he became president.

[Terwilliger]

24. UGH!

Well, we'll see what happens.

[RandomUser]

26. Yes, I suppose we will

see what happens.