Dean issues statement regarding General Clark's promotion

[pruner]

Statement by Governor Dean Regarding General Robert Clark's Promotion

BURLINGTON--Governor Dean today issued the following statement regarding this morning's action by the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee:

"I am greatly disturbed by the decision of the Senate Armed Services Committee this afternoon to move forward on the nomination of Major General Robert T. Clark to the rank of Lieutenant General. Maj. Gen. Clark's disastrous record as commander of Fort Campbell, KY, raises grave concerns about his fitness to serve in the 2nd highest rank in the U.S. Army.

"Under Clark's command, Private First Class Barry Winchell was brutally murdered by two of his comrades while he slept in his barracks because he was perceived to be gay. In the aftermath of this tragedy, MG Clark failed to take the necessary steps to curb the virulent anti-gay atmosphere that has been widespread throughout his tenure at Fort Campbell. Sadly, he has not even met with the parents of PFC Winchell, a young man who was trusted to his command.

"This nomination is not about Democrats or Republicans. It is about leadership and the best interests of our sons and daughters in uniform. This is about a mother's slain son and it is about holding leaders accountable for their actions.

"Today, I urge all my supporters to contact their Senators and ask them to vote against Maj. Gen. Clark's confirmation when it comes before the full Senate."

http://blogforamerica.com/

[gully]

1. Once again, Dean's at the forefront of the issues.

:thumbsup:

You can bet the others will follow soon ;)

[Pastiche423]

4. "Follow" is THE operative word

[poskonig]

2. I'm impressed!

I'm glad to see Dean still on the ball!

[annxburns]

3. General Clark .....?

For a second I thought .... wait, General Clark got promoted? I thought he was retired ...

Robert Clark, okay

Good for Dean

[pruner]

5. LOL

I intentionally used a somewhat ambiguous subject line because I figured it would draw in more people.

:)

[diplomats]

6. It worked

I thought it was Wesley Clark, too. :)

[knight_of_the_star]

8. Yeah, got me too

There have been WAY too many Clark flaming threads on here for me NOT to freak when I see something like this.

[Andromeda]

54. That's pretty sneaky, pruner...

:wtf:

[w13rd0]

12. Yeah, I'm sure we'll get at least a couple responses...

...based on the headline alone...

;)

[knight_of_the_star]

7. ok...

I want to know what YEAR this incident occured in! This could EASILY be taken out of context, because if htis was in the late 80s that this happened, there probably was VERY little Clark could have done about the anti-gay atmosphere without getting into some serious trouble from his superiors. Did anyone here think of that?

[gully]

9. Ahhhh no.

:P

[atreides1]

10. Not An Old Incident

The incident occured about 18 months to 2 years ago, it might even have been less.

So it did not occur in the 80's.

[pruner]

11. as long as it was after 9/11 it's relevant

nothing that happened before then matters anymore

:eyes:

[Cha]

13. It's all right! bush is building up a bunch

of scary memories since when the bush regime was Asleep at the wheel and they let "9/11" happen! :scared:

[Cha]

14. bushlies.com

http://www.bushlies.com

[incapsulated]

15. You got me, hehe

I was reading and thinking to myself; "Fort Campbell? WTF??"

You bad.

:evilgrin:

[Capn Sunshine]

17. First the depeleted uranium, now THIS!!!

This guy wreaks havoc, havoc I tell you !!!!!!!! It's about time that we thinking democrats......what's that ? ROBERT Clark? Who the fuck is HE?
Nevermind. :crazy:

[Julien Sorel]

16. This smacks of demagoguery.

Days before the killing, Glover and Winchell had an argument, which turned physical. Following the fight, Glover promised to kill Winchell, who had endured regular harassment about his suspected homosexuality.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781778.html

There was a fight beforehand. The guy was tried and sentenced to life imprisonment, and this is somehow reprehensible? Dean is looking for his Willie Horton. It was disgusting when the Right did it, and it's disgusting now. Astoundingly, my opinion of Dean sinks even lower.

[Hep]

18. We're all very surprised

No really, we are.

Dean made a statement, and all I get out of your reply is that you hate Dean. Nothing about what he said being wrong. They had a fight beforehand, and where was Clark to put an end to it before it bacame a murder? I don't think the best way to deal with that kind of problem is posthumously by simply prosecuting the murderer.

[Julien Sorel]

19. I think you need to read my post closer.

Clark was the base's commanding general. How was he supposed to 'put an end to it' when the kid didn't complain to anyone? It's a tragedy, but I don't see where Gen Robert Clark is culpable. It's demagoguery on Dean's part. If anything, this is an indictment of the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, but Dean is trying to get mileage out of it for his own ends. It's typical, self-centered Deanism at work: facts twisted to suit Dean's campaign needs.

[Hep]

22. Dean Dean Dean

Clark was the base's commanding general. How was he supposed to 'put an end to it' when the kid didn't complain to anyone? It's a tragedy, but I don't see where Gen Robert Clark is culpable.

There was a fight! He endured REGULAR HARASSMENT ABOUT HIS SUSPECTED HOMOSEXUALITY! Are you trying to say that it is OK for a general to not know about it? Personally, I EXPECT a general to know about that kind of thing. Show me the link that demonstrates that there was any discipline dished out to anyone in tha chain of command who didn't notify his superior.

But once again I got the point of your post. You hate Dean.

[Julien Sorel]

25. He never reported it.

How is anyone supposed to do anything if the kid never reported it? You ignore the point in your rush to defend your Dear Leader.

[pruner]

29. hard to report it when you don't know how

Fort Campbell continues to be a gay-basher’s paradise, as SLDN’s latest report amply documents. Gay discharges have skyrocketed there; gay soldiers are fleeing for their lives. Meanwhile, Clark blocked publication of potentially life-saving information about how to anonymously report anti-gay harassment. Clark must go.

http://www.detnews.com/EDITPAGE/0004/03/price/price.htm

[Julien Sorel]

32. A single op-ed piece isn't proof.

No evidence in there, just the writer's opinion.

I'm sorry, you say he didn't know how to report that he was being harrassed? Right. How about going up to someone and telling them? Does that take an inordinate amount of brains? Your friend below, by the way, claims he did complain. So which one is it? Did he complain, or did he 'not know how' to complain?

[pruner]

34. the only "editorial" in the quoted paragraph is…

Clark must go.

the rest of it, specifically the bolded text, is not the writer's opinion.

[Julien Sorel]

37. Periodically, Deanites seem to be reminded of the

difference between opinion and fact:

An example should be made of Major Gen. Robert T. Clark, who oversees Kentucky’s Fort Campbell, where Pfc. Barry Winchell was murdered.

Opinion bolded. The rest is fact.

Fort Campbell continues to be a gay-basher’s paradise, as SLDN’s latest report amply documents. Gay discharges have skyrocketed there; gay soldiers are fleeing for their lives. Meanwhile, Clark blocked publication of potentially life-saving information about how to anonymously report anti-gay harassment. Clark must go.

Basically, this entire paragraph is opinion. The writer references SLDN as supporting some, not all, of of it, but a quick look at SLDN's website didn't reveal any supporting evidence. 'Gay soldiers are fleeing for their lives.' Absurd hyperbole.

This general was subject to an extreme amount of scrutiny as a result of this incident before he was recommended for promotion. That was by a bi-partisan committee of people who weren't running for president, though, so maybe they had nothing to do but their jobs.

[pruner]

41. how's this opinion?

Meanwhile, Clark blocked publication of potentially life-saving information about how to anonymously report anti-gay harassment.

[Julien Sorel]

45. No supporting proof.

I looked on the web, and could find none, not on the SLDN site, no place. Given the writer's penchant for exaggeration and distortion, my guess is this is her attempt at interpreting something to mean what she wants it to mean. In other words, I decided to call it an opinion instead of what I think it really is.

[pruner]

46. your guess is…?

I'm really not interested in your opinion (to put it nicely).

somehow I doubt you'd be complaining if Clark (the one you're madly in love with) issued a statement about Clark (the one you think is being demagogued) that said exactly what Dean's statement said.

[Julien Sorel]

48. Totally off the point.

Of course, if 'my' Clark made the criticism, he'd know what he was talking about, unlike Dean. Different circumstance.

Since you seem to have given up on this track, perhaps you'd care to flesh out the 'didn't know how to report' bit? That one is almost as funny as the 'assholery' comment, and offers much more insight into your mentality. One of your friends claimed several times that it was reported, but he decided to disappear when challenged. You claim the kid 'didn't know how' to report it. Please, expound upon that statement.

[pruner]

49. I have no doubt he knew how to report it…

just not in an anonymous fashion.

if there was a lot of anti-gay sentiment at the base, it's likely that anyone who stood up for someone on the receiving end would find themselves in the same position.

so really, it's not a question of whether the incident could be reported, but whether it could be reported in such a way that would protect the identity of the "whistle-blower".

General Clark is either the one responsible for not providing, or blocking the provision of, the means for people to anonymously report ant-gay incidents.

as such, he's unfit for promotion.

[Julien Sorel]

51. First, you backtrack on your own statement.

Then, more opinion disguised as fact:
General Clark is either the one responsible for not providing, or blocking the provision of, the means for people to anonymously report ant-gay incidents.

And the proof of this is? And if there was such an anonymous report, how would it have prevented this murder? Don't ask/don't tell was still in place, which would have likely prevented anyone from coming forward. It should be obvious at this point that that ridiculous policy, mixed with teenage homophobia, are what was responsible for this, not this general, Dean's attempt at Willie Hortoning this issue notwithstanding.

[pruner]

52. whatever…

I'm tired of arguing about this.

I'd rather spend my time debating the relative value of sliced bread and the field of Democratic candidates.

:)

please vote in my poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=581671

[pruner]

44. periodically Clarkologists are blinded by their love for the general

and unable to discern fact from opinion.

[Hep]

35. The point isn't valid

That's just a cop out. If I knew something was going on I'd do something about it. I don't base my opinion on what Dean says, I base it on what I know of the facts. If there was regular harassment, he should have known about it. He was in charge.

[Julien Sorel]

39. Then prove the general knew something about it beforehand.

As soon as you do, this issue goes away. Until you do, you're just flapping your gums.

[Hep]

43. You mistake the written word for speech

but that's OK. I'll flap my fingers about how I think things should have been under his command. I find it ludicrous that the general wouldn't know, and I question the effectiveness of a person's command if he didn't know. So that's it. My opinion.

[Julien Sorel]

47. Figure of speech.

I find it ludicrous that the general wouldn't know, and I question the effectiveness of a person's command if he didn't know. So that's it. My opinion.

This is incredibly naive. I work in management, and I have no doubt that there is stuff going on under my nose that no one will ever tell me about, no matter how hard I pressed them, yet I am considered quite effective at my job. I know of things that my superiors will not find out about, and some of them are pretty sharp. No one knows everything -- all you can do is implement firm policies and enforce them when things are brought to your attention. From what I've read about this issue, it was handled as well as it could be, considering that the one kid never spoke up, and the other kid is serving life in a military prison.

[dsc]

26. He did complain

and the harassment continued.

[Julien Sorel]

28. Where's your evidence?

[pruner]

20. your comments smack of assholery

n/t

[Capn Sunshine]

21. After this hilarous comment gets erased, PM me for its content

[Julien Sorel]

23. LOL

Personally, I hope the comment stays. No argument, just a whine. It's fitting.

[dsc]

24. This is a pretty famous case

and Winchel was harassed for months with the bosses at that base doing not a damned thing. Clark dragged his feet with the investigation as well. He deserved to be relieved of command not promoted.

[Julien Sorel]

27. And where is the evidence?

What I read said the kid did not report it. I posted a link above. Where's yours?

[dsc]

53. Ther has been both a movie

and an official investigation, both states unequivocally that he was harassed in public by DI's, and had complained about said harassment.

[incapsulated]

31. Responsibility

It reminds me of Fort Bragg. "Nobody knew" about the neo-nazis and racists at that Fort. Nobody except everyone they bothered to ask.

I would not be suprised if this General knew there were problems and didn't give a shit. This sort of thing goes on all too much in the military. Sexual harrassment and rape in the Air Force, even after the whole blow up on that issue in the Army. Nobody cared. And when someone winds up dead, the high-ranks never get any blame.

[pruner]

33. see my post #29

n/t

[incapsulated]

36. Yep

I want these guys to finally be held responsible for what is going on under their command. As long as they can not only walk away from it, but be promoted in spite of it, it will never stop.

Dean is right, he shouldn't be promoted he should be fired.

[RetroLounge]

38. DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

Makes you kinda crazy doesn't it?

Doesn't matter who or what Clark it is, some Clarkie will jump in and slam Dean.

Headline: "Petula Clark has died"
Clarkie Response: "She was a better singer that Howard Dean."

Whatever...

[Julien Sorel]

42. Another non-response.

At least the 'assholery' comment had a plaintive quality that made it amusing.

[RetroLounge]

50. Not my job to amuse you.

eom

[RetroLounge]

40. "This smacks of demagoguery"

he said quoting Robert Novak...

[Alex146]

30. Holy $hit! I thought you meant Wes Clark!

LOL

[Eloriel]

55. The General is responsible for all that occurs under his command

There were ample stories at the time (Hint for BillyBunter: google!! Try it, you'll like it) that pointed to the fact that there was a pervasive climate of homophobic oppression at Fort Campbell. THAT was his responsibility.

Dean is right. In spades. And good on him.

Eloriel