Is America bound to become a christian one party state ?

[Kamika]

In the next 200 years or so?

Bear with me.

I often talk to a friend in Israel she tells me that the orthodox jews there (the ones wearing hats, not doing military servce etc) gets on average 9-10 kids each, while the more secular israel maybe has 1 or 2.

That means that in about 100 years the tide in Israel will switch extremely, and my friend doesnt have much hope for the country itself when that happens.

Now i applied that to America and it's pretty scary. I would dare to say that the fundie christians in the US have on average alot more kids then the more "normal" secular people, maybe average 4-5 kids, compared to maybe 1-2 or no kids at all.

In 200 years or so that would mean that the majority in this country would be fulltime christian fundies, and you can just imagine who they will vote for. And then add the normal conservatives, and I dont see any hope for this country.

Conservatives have no problem at all with this country becoming a fulltime one party state under God.

[onebigbadwulf]

1. Yes

Unless all liberals and moderates can unite under a LIBERAL COALITION, we are definitely doomed to see a religious right theocracy in the next four years.

It's scary but it's true. We must defeat this fundamentalism now.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. Not a good prospect for the young rebels in this country.

My own daughter appears to be turning agnostic. I've tried to tell her not to let other people's attempts to shove their religion down our throats interfere with her individual relationship with God, but I don't think I'm succeeding. Children can see hypocrisy better than adults and she knows that religion is being used to bully people into accepting, not just God, but submissive lifestyles.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

14. Here's an idea - START BREEDING

What I've NEVER understood - why is working for some corporation a "more fulfilling career" than raising children?

[La_Serpiente]

2. Agghh

I cannot imagine this country full of hawks.

If that happened, I don't know what I would do.

I am thinking about moving to Brazil instead of Canada. There is a province in Northern Brazil known for its "gayness". Also, it is a somewhat socialist country (Silvia Ignacio de Lula, the president, is a big free trader). However, he put in place affirmative action policies over there.

[dudeness]

3. in all honesty

i think the US..Britian and Australia already are..

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Flaw in your argument

One thing that still pervades in this country at least is religious freedom. Just because you grow up in a fundamentalist church doesn't mean you'll remain fundamentalist. I remember hearing that Catholics were going to take over the US because they had large families (no birth control) and that Protestants had smaller ones. This was one of the many anti-Catholic tirades that went around when Kennedy was running for President. I don't know that the number of Catholics in this country has increased that dramatically in the last 40 years. And I know several people who were born Catholics who have changed their religious affiliation (and I don't mean to fundamentalist churches).

A church is there to fulful the needs of its congregation. These needs include a spiritual need. Some find that the political tirades, the 'there's only one way and its the way the preacher says' sort of thing just doesn't cut it, and they go to seek spiritual nourishment elsewhere. The sweatlodge ceremony I attend includes people who were raised in very fundamentalist churches and who didn't find what they were looking for. (And this lodge is following the Dakota tradition, and is not some hybred of Christianity and Native beliefs) The people who attend the Dances of Universal Peace which we lead are from all walks of life. (We lead the Dances in Ashcroft's home town, Springfield MO, once a month, btw) Many of my Sufi brothers and sisters have come from conservative religious backgrounds.

So what I'm saying in a long-winded way is that there is hope and a good chance that the fundamentalists won't take over. Have faith in this, and, as Sharif Baba said recently, "Don't worry about politics. Worry about soul."

[Kamika]

12. I accounted for that

But in all seirousness do you really think that there are THAT many kids from the fundie families that see the light?

[thebigidea]

5. ASHCROFT: "I sure hope so."

[LARED]

6. Do you have any

evidence that

that the fundie christians in the US have on average alot more kids then the more "normal" secular people, maybe average 4-5 kids, compared to maybe 1-2 or no kids at all.

is true?

Just curious, as unless your premise is true your whole notion falls apart.

Let me point out a few anecdotal notions of my own that may cause you to rethink your position.

Catholics tend to have large families and last time I checked are not are not lumped in with the the fundies.

Minorities tend to have large families and the last time i checked not too many are fundies.

Fundie parents don't mean fundie kids.

I think fundamental Muslims also tend to have larger families than avg.

My 2 cents

[Midwest_Doc]

7. Who Votes is the Issue

If every person eligible voted there would be a clear progressive majority in this country that would continue to grow in strength.

The problem is a huge percentage of right-wingers vote, while a small percentage of progressives vote. Getting out the vote is the key to our success!

[jumptheshadow]

9. Only if they succeed in closing down the borders

There are many, many immigrants in my area who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist. And that's not including the Canadians and Europeans who tend to be liberal or secular Christian.

If, on the other hand, the fundies effectively outlaw immigration, we would definitely drift toward homogenity. However, I tend to think that the U.S. would split into more than one state if the RW fundies get that much power.

[rasputin1952]

10. No...

The one thing that seperates the US from all other nations is it's diversity. No other nation in the history of the earth has had the diverse cultures that the US enjoys.

The saving grace of the US is in its diversity; but that diversity can also be a constant bane, as each group, no matter how hard it cries for acceptance, still reverts to its core.

The Fundies are a relatively small entity, that seems large because it is so vociferous. They get the lions share of the limelight, but that in no way determines just how strong they are as a cohesive group. Just like the GOP, they talk a good streak, but when it comes down to brass tacks, they ultimately fail in their endeavors. They become too radical in their conservatism and people just plain get sick of the notion of stagnation.

Since the Fundies basically have their own notion of what Christianity is, and that notion is flawed from the begining, they have little option but to fail in their quest for domination. Most of the most vociferous of them have little concept of true Christianity, and use the religion to cover their own faults and fears. If they actually took the time to read and understand what was taught, they would have a completely different view of how things ought to be. Long lost in the Fundy ideology is tolerance and forgiveness. Long lost is the quest for knowledge and the realization that what Christ spoke of most often was hypocrisy and the problems that come along with it.

We will not become a theocracy, we will remain free to believe, or not believe as we see fit. There will be a certain amount of pressure to conform toi the bigoted views of many religions and philosophies, but resistance to such pressure is part of the American psyche. Theocracy threatens Freedom, and even the Ashcrofts of the world are too often shown to be the threats to the Freedom we know and love.

Pretty soon, I believe we will regain our rights to dignity and a government that accepts its responsibility to its citizens.

edited: darn spelling again, I need COFFEE!

[ikojo]

11. It is true that the orthodox Jews in Israel tend to have

more children than their more secular counterparts, however, the orthodox are a minority in Israel (a vocal minority but a minority nonetheless). Given the current rate of reproduction for Israel AS A WHOLE they are barely reproducing at replacement rates. The Arabs and Palestinians tend to have far more children than the Israelis. This disturbs many in Israel because if the current birthrate of Israelis and Arabs continue then Israel is likely to be a majority Arab country very soon.

Also, I don't think Fundie Christian families in the US have any more children than less fundamentalist Christian families. Of course the extreme, extreme right-wing racist white christians (the christian identity folks) try to have as many kids as possible to forestall the fact that whites are likely to become a minority in the US within 100 years.

Contrary to myth, most fundies in the US are middle and upper middle class. They are not the uneducated people portrayed in the media. Like others of their class, they tend to have small families. Most Americans realize children are VERY expensive and since most fundies send their kids to private Christian schools they know that if they have too many then they will not be able to afford the tuition and other things that go along with raising a Republican/right-winger.

[number six]

13. No..

Nothing is ever certain. The future can always be changed. The more obvious a movement gets, the more opposition it'll generate. There's a lot of quiet opposition that'll get louder as the fundies do.
If not, just come up to Canada. Particularly Calgary. We could use some lefties here.