Kucinich to petition FCC over station's airing of misleading Dean ads...

[wyldwolf]

Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich is demanding New Hampshire television stations stop broadcasting ads from rival Howard Dean.

Dean began airing new ads in New Hampshire earlier this week, criticizing opponents for not questioning the war before the campaign.

But Kucinich, an Ohio congressman, points out that he is the only candidate who voted against the resolution in Congress.

Kucinich's attorney has sent letters to the television stations broadcasting the ad. His campaign said he plans to petition the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal Communication Commission about the ads, which he calls false and misleading.

A spokesman for Dean called Kucinich's demand "misguided and unfortunate."

http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/wnne/2579079/detail.html


If the ads include Kucinich when referring to opponents not questioning the war, then yeah, they are misleading.

If they say something like "SOME of my opponents..." then they seem ok.


Thoughts?

[mzmolly]

1. I agree, but I guess it depends on how you define opponent.

Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun were all against the war, but are they considered 'opponents' at this point considering the polls?

I understand Dennis's point however.

[xJlM]

2. That's been Dean's tactic all along

Ignore what Rep Kucinich did in opposition to the war, and talk about what he would have done (as governor of Vermont?). Actually, Dean's position was closer to Bush's than to the actual stand Kucinich made against the war.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

35. Yes. Pay attention all liberals, leftists, and populists

Dean's campaign is a good lesson in how the two party system and the corporate media marginalizes our views. Dean's populist style helps hide his anti-populist positions.

[blm]

62. Hear, hear. The simple truth.

.

[ShaneGR]

3. Who says Kucinich is a real opponent?

This is NOT a flame against Dennis K! But, all the Dean campaign has to do is say, "Well, we looked at the poll results and didn't really think Kucinich was a valid opponent."

[MuseRider]

5. This isn't a flame?

How then did you mean this? He is running, he is a valid opponent. It is NOT up to Dean to decide that.

[ShaneGR]

6. Actually, it is up to him

Campaigns do it all the time...

Lets say you have 9 candidates. Your campaign is leading by a certain percentage. Perhaps four of your 'opponents' are within 20 points of you. The rest are 'also-rans' with 'no hope' of winning.

[MuseRider]

10. It is one thing

to say something about another candidate to boost yourself but it is quite another to LIE about another candidate to boost yourself. You find this acceptable? Sorry, Dean may not consider DK a "real" candidate but at least he is a better human than to do this kind of thing.

[TLM]

120. It isn;t like Dean said... "Kucinich supported the war."

He simply did not count Kucinich as an opponent, nor CMB or Sharpton.

This isn’t little league where everybody gets a turn at bat and we don’t keep score... this is the big leagues, where if you don’t make the cut, you're gone.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

128. It isn't like Dean said. "Kucinich is the strongest anti-war voice .."

of the bunch... oh yeah he didn't say that either.


TWL

[TLM]

134. He's not the strongest anti-war voice...

Maybe the shrillest, but if you measure the strength of the voice by the number of people it reaches and effectively convinces, then Dean has been BY FAR the strongest anti-war voice.

[wheresthemind]

169. Dean?

Dean spoke at Anti-War rallies? Dean led the resistance in congress and rallied housedemocrats to vote against the resolution? Dean never once wavered in his anti-war stance?

Dean is many things but the strongest anti-war voice he will NEVER BE.

[TLM]

161. Dean spoke out against the war on TV and at events...

but not at the big protest, I don't think.


"Dean led the resistance in congress and rallied housedemocrats to vote against the resolution?"

Woo boy and look how efective that was... Kucinich certianly tried hard, I'll give him that. But he accomplished what? Dean has accomplished so much more, and I find that to be a better measure of how strong a voice is.

Lets not confuse strong with shrill.


"Dean never once wavered in his anti-war stance?"

Nope.

[MuseRider]

132. There has not been a cut yet.

We who support DK are forever being told that we don't live in the real world and that DU hardly represents the real world. Does this apply to everyone else as well?

[TLM]

135. DK is polling less than 1%....

granted that's with a 6% MOE, but the fact remains that DK hasn;t got a shot in hell of wining a single primary.

[MuseRider]

144. WE ARE AWARE OF THAT!

Y'all have been pounding that info unmercilessly into our heads since the beginning of this. I DO NOT CARE. If you can take a lying candidate who needs to continually bolster his own self image by denigrating others in the party, OTHERS who are running for the office, then more power to you. I prefer a chance to vote for the first honest man I have seen in this business in years. If my vote seems wasted to you, well that is your problem, I will feel very good about it myself.

[TLM]

148. That's fine... feeling good about yourself is more important to you

than taking our country back from Bush and his warmongering ilk... that's your prerogative.


However your pipe dream is hardly solid ground upon which to base criticisms of those who are more interested in the facts and hard truth of what it takes to win our country back than entertaining your fantasy that DK is a real opponent in this race.


You call it a lie not to consider Dennis an opponent... I call it a hard truth. When were talking about massive amounts of money and resources going into political ads, there is no longer any room to afford coddling Kucinich and his ego.

[MuseRider]

152. Now that is a load

of total bullshit. We are in the primary season, I can and will vote for whoever I choose and if you think that is wrong then I suggest you are in the wrong place. Whatever I chose to do after the primary is MY business and you can rest assured I will certainly not be sharing this with you.

[tinanator]

153. those polls are BS

Im running out of fingers and toes to count ALL the numerous examples of Kucinich running away with the results. People who believe in "polls" probably shouldnt be allowed to vote.

[TLM]

167. Really can you show me examples of Kucinich running away with results

in any polls for any primary in any state so far?

[sangh0]

23. Breaking News

Reality is not based on opinion. If a candidate is "real" or not is not an opinion. If a candidate is an "also-ran" or has "no hope of winning" is an opinion. Their being "real" is not subject to opinion. Kucinich IS a REAL opponent.

Dean lies.

[maha]

116. You DO know

... that Dean is polling at 40 percent in New Hampshire, while Kunich is lumped in with those polling at less than 1 percent?

This is a Zogby poll, so you can take it to the bank ...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/10/24/national1229EDT0553.DTL

I can understand why DK is miffed, but throwing a temper tantrum is not the way to handle it. Let him give some interviews to the press and/or buy his own ads to express his side.

[Cocoa]

24. but polls are not official

and at this point they're meaningless. If you saw the focus group on C-span last night, you know what I mean.

[redqueen]

34. You saw that too?!

OMG I only saw the end but I was whomperjawed!

:wtf:

At least there was one Republican woman (the one in the pink sweater) who seemed to think rationally. :)

[MissMillie]

44. Lydon LaRouche

Is he running? If so, do you think that makes him a "valid opponent" that each candidate needs to strategize against?

[MuseRider]

53. He has declared

he must have some support, I believe he has earned the matching funds. Yes, I do. The point was not that he was strategizing against DK. He was, once again, flat out lying. Any candidate who has to lie to the public is not a candidate I will ever vote for. I know, they ALL do. No, that is not quite the case although perhaps we are getting close to that so I guess I should just "lighten up."

[ShaneGR]

56. Actually, there is difference between "lying" and "ignoring"

Flat out lying would be "Dennis Kucinich supported the war.

Ignoring is "Sorry, we forgot about DK."

[sangh0]

58. There's just one problem

It's not the first time Dean has umm "forgotten" about some of the other candidates. Dean once claimed that ALL of his Dem opponents had voted to raise taxes.

Not true, and he gave the same exact dodge - "I was talking about major opponents"

[MuseRider]

60. I find his

ignoring a candidate who he actually has to debate with the exact reason he is not only at the bottom of my list, I don't think I could ever vote for him. He lies and he ignores the things, or people who would make his high opinion of himself a little harder to maintain. If that does not matter to you then fine, vote for him. I find he is as disingenous as Bush*.

[TLM]

118. No it is up to the people ... and so far that's what they've decided

as is clearly shown by Kucinich's poll numbers and fund raising.

Should all the other candidates have to make a special effort to pretend Dennis is a top tier candidate? Or should they be allowed to focus their efforts on who is actualy in the running?

[janekat]

85. Very arrogant on Dean's part to "ignore" Kuchinich

n/t

[TLM]

121. Arrogant... or simply realistic?

Dennis Kucinich just is not at the level that would warrant being counted as an opponent. Simple as that. He is polling at 1%. Sorry but there is no reason to tip toe around Kucinich’s ego just because he wants to be treated like a contender.

You don’t see CMB or Sharpton whining about this…

[NoMoreRedInk]

158. You're right. As much as I love DK's platform....

he has no chance of winning. NO CHANCE. At some point soon, we're going to have to start shedding the pretenders so the rest of the country can hear from the contenders.

I'd bet all of my paltry net worth against a lukewarm Coca-Cola that DK will not win the nomination, and sleep very well at night.

[RapidCreek]

174. Your boy told a LIE, plane and simple.

You can twist it any way you like....but a lie is a lie. The Federal Election Commission determines who the opponants are in the Democratic primary...not you and not Dean.

Before this, I had considered voting for the man. Now that he has revealed himself to be a chikenshit equivocater, he shall not get my vote.

RC

[RapidCreek]

173. It is a flame.....infact it is worse

It reeks of pathetic, whiny, rationalization based upon equivocation and deciept....a distinctly Rovian technique.

If Dennis Kuchinics name is on the primary ballot then Dennis Kuchinic is an opponant. I don't care if he is scoring .0000001% in the polls. The Federal Election Commission not Mr. Dean campaign is the arbiter of what constitutes a valid opponant.

Dean clearly told a bald faced LIE.

[bleedingheart]

4. its just going to end up making Kucinich look bad.

why not go on Hardball and put forth his own strategy... of course he will have to shut down Matthews....but hey that's just the way the game works now.

[MuseRider]

7. Partly I think

he is trying to raise the bar on how things are done now. Why should he play by their rules?

[ShaneGR]

8. Seems like they are having a meltdown

First they don't want to do an interview because the host is being a meanie.

Then they want to sue another candidate because he won't pay attention to them.

[Desertrose]

16. No I think its about class & honesty

To use some of the arguments posters stated above...sounds just like the way a politician operates to me...

What the hell ever happened to truth? How long can we keep ignoring it in an excuse to win? If Dean ( or any candidate) has a good and valid point to make-why the need for spin???I'm really sick of lies...misstatements and partial truth....

Far as tweety, why does anyone have to put themselves in a position of ridicule and being screamed at and lied about? If we don't "raise the bar" now, we're gonna have to dig a damn deep trench to even find it!

I am more & more impressed what DK brings to the campaign...and people wonder why we DK supporters have a hard time picking a second choice. The rest are all playing the same game...it becomes more obvious every day.
There is more at stake here than "winning the game" -it is more & more about how you play it....too bad not everyone plays fair....

we need to pay attention I think, to what is really happening, and not be blinded by candidate loyalty.

Peace
DR

[bleedingheart]

26. the sad fact is that we don't have control of the media

Unfortunately DK isn't getting enough publicity. He did vote against the Iraq war and he did actively protest the war but not many, except for loyal CSPAN viewers, know him.

Politiking is ugly business and right now its about getting name recognition. I hate to say that but its so true, how much name recognition will he get by raising the bar and refusing to go on those programs? Not many people have even heard of Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy etc...

Personally I have my favorite but I will gladly vote for whoever wins the nomination...even if it is Lieberman (holding my nose)...

ps...I personally don't like how DK waffled on women's rights to choose...do you know how he voted on this partial birth abortion issue??

[ThirdWheelLegend]

42. waffling

Well a 2 year hiatus from voting on abortion issues and a personal re-evaluation of his position and spending time speaking about choice with many women...

I guess that's waffling...?

He has also vowed to only appoint SCOTUS nominees that agree to uphold RvW. I am not 100%, but I think he is the only candidate that has said that.

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_rightsreproductive.htm


TWL

[MuseRider]

47. There is a big

difference between waffling and a carefully considered change of heart. I trust the way he made the decision.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

50. dangit!

Muse, why you have to say it in two sentences. I need to learn to be more concise. :)

TWL

[blm]

61. He and Kerry both said it earlier this year.

Funny how those who bring up DK and his abortion stand have no problem that Dean pushed to deregulate electricity in Vermont for so many years. He only changed his mind when the California debacle made itself evident.

No real Democrat would have pushed for deregulation. That's Libertarian capitalism, not Democratic populism.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

65. Early on I thought it impossible...

But Kerry is actually right up there behind Kucinich with a couple others.

Unlike Dean, the more I hear from Kerry the more I respect him. I still worry about his corporate ties though.

blm, are you a Kerry supporter, if so can you maybe give me a little supporting information on Kerry? I'd like to hear more.

TWL

[blm]

67. Go to P&C

There are threads on the issues at that forum.

Your best bet is to go to his site and read his policies set out in speeches and position papers. www.johnkerry.com

It's not unusual to me to support both Kucinich and Kerry. I see them as the most liberal of all the candidates. Many are shocked to learn that Kerry has a lifetime liberal rating closest to Wellstone's of all the candidates.

Here's a start from votesmart:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=64297&mesg_id=64297

[sangh0]

66. And they won't bring up

Deans' statement that 9/11 will "require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. "

[TLM]

123. Dean pushed for deregulation so that renewable and alternative producers

Could get into the energy market… but when he saw how Enron abused the unregulated system, he found the risk too great and changed his position.

And the reason people don’t treat them the same is that being for deregulation or against it is a position were we can understand a shift in opinion… whereas to go from 100% anti-choice to 100% pro choice is a very questionable act considering how deeply held abortion positions tend to be for most folks.

[JI7]

91. John Kerry has also

john kerry has also said he would only appoint someone who is prochoice to the supreme court. and in the senate he would filibuster any sc nominee who opposes abortion rights.

[Mairead]

92. Pro-Choice. AND he spoke out strongly in favor of Choice.

It's not fair to say he waffled. He had one position, was strongly encouraged to change it, took a year to think it through, and now he is solidly in favor of Choice. INCLUDING for poor women and women using military hospitals. That's not waffling by any definition I've ever heard.

He's so solidly in favor of Choice that he was the first and for awhile the only one to state flatly that he will use Choice as a litmus test for SCOTUS nominees.

[Mairead]

93. .

(this was a hiccup)

[TLM]

122. Is it so unreasonable to say that to be counted an opponent...

One must at least stand a chance of winning at least one primary?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

126. Oh so he was just being arrogant..

and dismissing a fellow candidate.

I'll remember that if he gets the nomination.

TWL

[TLM]

129. Arrogant, or simply realistic?

How much of his time and energy and campaign funds should Dean have to devote to coddling Kucinich's ego?


And talk about arrogance… what would you call threatening to sue to force a candidate to acknowledge you as a top tier opponent in their political ads, when you’re polling at 1%?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

130. Oh I missed the part where...

Dean said, "of my candidates who are polling above 5%..."

You are defending deception. If not deception, arrogance. I am not looking for either of these in a candidate.

TWL

[TLM]

137. He didn't say candidates.... he said opponents

and to be an opponent, you have to at least have a chance at winning at least one state... and so far DK is at the back of the pack.

I'm defending reality... like it or not Kucinich is not, and never was, a top tier candidate.

[RapidCreek]

177. Man....your attempts at clever rationalization fall FLAT.

If Mr. Dean must beat Mr. Kuchinic to become president of the United States then Mr. Kuchinic is his opponant. Is that clear enough for you? If not let me know and I will draw you a picture.

RC

[redqueen]

36. Ted Kennedy won't do the show.

And I respect him for it.


edited: DK voted against the ban.

[bleedingheart]

39. I am glad to hear that he voted against the ban

[redqueen]

43. That's why a lot of us love Kucinich.

You can take the man at his word. He used to be pro-life, but when he said he changed his mind, his record shows that people don't have to worry that he's just pandering. :)

[loyalsister]

86. I don't trust him on it

The fact that the thought entered his head that an embryo should be prioritized over the potential benefits of stem cell research to existing people says a lot about where this "deeply religious" man's heart is on the subject.

[RapidCreek]

175. It's not that he doesn't want to do an interview. He doesn't

care to get into the cage of a screeching, shit throwing, chest beating monkey. Its evident Mr. Kuchinic is a man who will not suffer fools gladly. He doesn't care to entertain a fool or be in the company of one.


RC

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. Dean

The truth doesn't matter to Dean. Only winning power at any cost.

[MuseRider]

11. Exactly

and he will get my vote only if he turns himself into an honest man.

[madfloridian]

13. The ads are up at the Dean site. Watch them.

Make an intelligent decision instead of just hating Dean so much.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

17. Yeah I watched it and he ignores Kucinich...

direct quote from the ad..

"The best MY opponents could do is ask questions today, that they should have asked before they supported the war."

Deceitful.

Kucinich was anti-war and anti iraq war before any of us even heard of Howard Dean.

Dean was my number one choice before Kucinich started campaigning. Dean is now 4th or 5th at best.

It's this kind of thing that made him drop in my support.

TWL

[Bandit]

31. I find these two statements humorous

Kucinich was anti-war and anti iraq war before any of us even heard of Howard Dean.

Dean was my number one choice before Kucinich started campaigning. Dean is now 4th or 5th at best.
:crazy:

[ThirdWheelLegend]

32. explain?

I was a Kucinich supporter in February 2002, after I read his Prayer for America speech, but Dean was a candidate BEFORE Kucinich.

So my statement is correct. In February 2002 I supported Kucinich and his anti war stance. And I had heard of Howard Dean.

My second statement. Dean was my first choice early on, before Kucinich had decided to make a run. Kucinich became my first choice and then Dean was my second. As time goes on and I learn more about Dean and see ads like this he is dropping in my personal rankings.

Humorous?

TWL

[TLM]

124. Kucinich isn’t an opponent...

any more than Larouche is an opponent.

[shance]

25. LOL!*** And Kucinichs stunt doesnt reak of doing anything to WIN??

Now THAT was funny.

:)

[Mairead]

94. "Stunt" You think objecting to an outright lie is a "stunt"?

Don't let your partisanship strip you of the ethics you need to be human. You should sneer at Dean's dishonesty, if you're going to sneer at anyone.

[TLM]

125. There's no outright lie.... Dean did not say "Kucinich suppored the war"

He simply did not count the lower tier candidates as opponents.

Should he have to make a special caveat in all his ads to coddle Kucinich and pretend that Kucinich isn’t polling at 1%?


And yes calling a press conference to beg for attention by threatening to sue over an add that simply didn't acknowledge him as a serious candidate, is a stunt. And sadly typical shrill cry-baby behavior from Dennis. This kind of crap is why he’s not a contender.

[RapidCreek]

180. Well unless I am mistaken...

he must beat the lower tier candidates in an election to win the nomination, mustn't he? That being the case, the lower tier candidates are his opponents.

Your boy told a lie...and he got called on it. The only shrill cry babies I'm hearing are those making inane weak, attempts to obfuscate this clear and simple fact. A person of integrity admits when they have fucked up and takes their lumps.

RC

[RapidCreek]

178. Calling someone on a bald faced lie is a stunt?

Is Mr. Dean pulling a stunt when he calls Mr. Bush on his dishonesty? If so, does that stunt reek of doing anything to WIN?

Using you logic the answer to both those questions would be and emphatic YES!

What is funny...down right hilarious infact, are your inane attempts to defend a man who clearly told a lie. You talk about stunts that reek of doing anything to win.

RC

[Loonman]

12. Dean and Kucinich should run together

Yogi and Boo-Boo - 2004!

[Dover]

14. Dean would LOVE to steal Kucinich's thunder.

Afterall, Dean didn't have to prove himself regarding his stance on Iraq...and next to Kucinich his "loner anti-war warrior" stance gets dilluted considerably.

Shhhh....Dean likes to pretend Kucinich doesn't exist.
Sure Dean...and if you cover
your eyes no one can see you.

[theemu]

82. Kucinich doesn't have thunder

No momentum = no chance to win.

Sorry, try again.

[loyalsister]

88. Yeah right

The only people who take DK seriously are on this board and other fringe left. Although I do know some anti-choice dems in my area who LOVE him.
He's not a serious candidate. He serves a purpose, though. He makes the others look totally moderate, and more appealing to middle America.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

110. support that...

"Although I do know some anti-choice dems in my area who LOVE him."

I have to call you on this BS. In fact I would garner this to be a fabrication just to slam Dennis Kucinich. I know shitloads of people that are PERSONALLY Pro-life and adamantly PRO-CHOICE. Kerry and Kucinich are the only two candidates that have said that upholding RvW would be a litmus test for appointing SCOTUS justices.

"He's not a serious candidate. He serves a purpose, though. He makes the others look totally moderate, and more appealing to middle America."

More ridiculous slamming. Yeah middle america hates UHC and loves soldiers dying for oil. I could go on...


TWL

[loyalsister]

113. a congressional candidate

for the ninth district in Missouri in 2002. Dick Deichmann ran for congress and Kathi Mayhew was his campaign manager. She's working on the Kucinich campaign now. I (along with most of the self respecting women who are Democrats here) voted Green in 2002 because he's anti-choice. He LOVES DK, though.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

115. hmmmm

"Although I do know some anti-choice dems in my area who LOVE him"

some is more than one Missouri candidate for office.

Thing is I know ... well let's make that everyone that I know who supports DK is pro-choice.

About 90% of my friends are DK supporters. None are anti-choice as you put it. Some may be personally pro-life, but isn't that their CHOICE.

TWL

[TLM]

127. Thunder? LOL!!!! THUNDER?

I've had farts that were louder than Kucinich's thunder.

[CWebster]

15. Petty and complaining

Kucinich's worst trait is that he exhibits juvenile behavior.

[Desertrose]

18. No ...he stands alone in truth

and fairness.....
again...why must Dean works so hard to make us believe he thought all this stuff up & is the lone standard bearer...?

if he has the truth behind him...why spin? why partial truth? why mislead?? Oh I forgot- his campaign money is buying the ads so he can spin all he wants....I keep forgetting how the "game" is played...silly me.

Frankly, I'm sick of games and would like to be treated as a grownup- just the facts would do nicely, thank you.

I don't see being honest and all you say & do as being juvenile...
Peace
DR

[ThirdWheelLegend]

19. thanks DR

Well said.

BTW go watch the ad...
http://www.howarddean.tv/v2/streaming_pages/wmp/ad-iraq_256k.asp

In my post above I put the DIRECT quote..

"The best MY opponents could do is ask questions today, that they should have asked before they supported the war."

For anyone who knows anything about DK and his history on speaking out against the war, this statement by Dean is pure BS.

misleading as heck....

Dean just lost more points with me.


TWL

[shance]

22. If DK stands "alone in truth", why is he pulling such a calculated stunt

If Dean were doing this, I would say cheap shot, even a little whiny, crybaby ish.

Kucinich is getting greedy here and cmon you guys, in this instance HE is the one obsessed with winning. Im tired of people not being willing to look at the truth about their candidate.

This in my opinion was a dumb move by Kucinich, because he has shown now hell do whatever it takes too, which in and of itself is not bad, although I keep wishing he would focus on Speaker of the House. Talk about a necessary person to take that position and really re-shape that branch.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

27. Did you watch the ad??

You must not have, or do you have Dean blinders on.

"The best MY opponents could do is ask questions today, that they should have asked before they supported the war."

That is the direct quote from the ad.

He doesn't say SOME, he doesn't say, "but Kucinich and Al were against it also"

He MISLEADS with a halftruth.


You say:
"Im tired of people not being willing to look at the truth about their candidate."

I won't touch it. :)

TWL

[Cocoa]

30. I don't think this is a stunt

This rings true in two ways.

First, Kucinich makes a perfectly valid point about his opposition to the war. A significant number of members of Congress voted against the war, but of the candidates running, he is the only one of that group.

Second, regarding what it says about Dean, this is similar to the charges made by Kerry and Gephardt that Dean represented himself inaccurately on medicare.

[CWebster]

51. The way Kucinich is dealing with it is infantile

Mommy! Mommy! Dr. Howie got it wrong! Dr. Howie dissed me!

Wellstone, for example would've handled it with the diplomacy and humor

[Mairead]

95. I repeat an earlier question: are there 2 people posting under 'CWebster'?

Because there are times when 'you' sound positively rightwing.

[CWebster]

106. Occasionally devil's advocate...

but not so much a baiter as some troll-like types lurking about these parts.

;-)

[Zorra]

20. Dean should stop

making inaccurate statements regarding other Dem candidates. He is losing my respect; I am beginning to question his integrity. He's definitely not gaining anything by doing this. Kucinich would not be challenging Dean's ads if the ads said "Some of my opponents...". And despite the apparent fact that Kucinich, Braun, and Sharpton are way behind in the polls, they were against the war, and they are still challengers to Dean for the nomination.

Here is an example of an inaccurate, misleading statement he made about Wesley Clark:

September 29, 2003 -- Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean yesterday blasted new 2004 candidate Wesley Clark as "a Republican until 25 days ago" who has become the "desperation" candidate for establishment Democrats.

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/6773.htm

While it is apparently true that Clark has had considerable republican leanings in the past, this statement seems inaccurate to me.

I like Dean, and if I were a Dean supporter, I would encourage his campaign advisors to stick to the facts. Because I like Dean less than I did yesterday, and other folks are going to feel the same way.

[bleedingheart]

28. they should all stop it...

to pick on Dean alone is unfair... all of them have been nit picky with one another...

the only ones who remain out of the crosshairs are Braun and Sharpton.

[Nazgul35]

21. I think the biggest problem is...

that Dean knows Kucinich's campaign is over and Dennis doesn't...when he refers to his opponents...I am sure he means those who poll more than 5%....

[ThirdWheelLegend]

29. Way to win my support....

:eyes:

[theemu]

83. Way to face reality...

Kucinich can't win. You know that, deep down in your mind, even though your heart doesn't want your mind to tell you the truth.

[Nazgul35]

131. sorry...

was having pain today and was kinda cranky.....

Dennis has nothing to be ashamed off...our country should be ashamed that he is not being considered due to our shallowness as a people....I hopw that Kucinich and his supporters will get behind Dean if he comes down to the last two candidates....i'll work my ass off for Dennis if he gets the nod....

[Clark Can WIN]

33. I find it more telling that Dean uses his ads

To attack the other Democratic candidates. I used to like him, but I gotta say, he lost me over the last 8 weeks or so. His ad looked smarmy imo.

[rucky]

37. Good Publicity Move for Both Candidates

DK gets his stellar record out there, and Dean gets more publicity, too... a-la Fox vs. Franken.

Unfortunately, this is what it takes to get DK some exposure. All in all not very damaging. Funny it happening between my top 2.

[quinnox]

38. Good for Kucinich

Time for Dean to be called on his b.s.

He has consistently thrown mud at all the other Dems, acting as if he is the One True Dem to lead the party to the promised land. What a phony Dean is, I hope Kucinich calls him on this misleading ad at the debate on Sunday.

[Mairead]

98. "What a phony Dean is"

I think you've just captured in a nutshell my objections to him. That's what it is: to me, he comes across as a phony, a fake. From his chickenhawkery to his lies and overnight 'evolutions', I have no confidence that I can believe anything he says or trust any position he claims to take.

But even worse--if that's possible--is the way so many of his followers here seem to act like junior-high groupies rather than thoughtful adults. Maybe they actually are, who knows. They attack other people as though it's all life-or-death, but they accept everything about him as uncritically as though there were nothing more at stake than who buys the next round. That's really frightening, when you think about it. We could end up with another Smirk in office, only with a 'D' label on.

How nice for us.

[redqueen]

40. Politically speaking

This will not help if he gets the nod. How many 'restatements of statements' has Dean been forced to make now?

If companies doing 'restatements of earnings' is accepted as fraud, then what does this look like?

I agree with other posters here... I used to support Dean, then switched to Kucinich with Dean as my second. He was still second, but now... I don't know.

:(

[chimpymustgo]

48. Lies and the lying liars who tell them: Howard Dean will say ANYTHING

to get elected. Is anybody keeping a list? Karl Rove is...

[MissMillie]

41. Kucinich is right, but...

But Kucinich, an Ohio congressman, points out that he is the only candidate who voted against the resolution in Congress.

only because Graham dropped out, and Clark, Dean, Mosley-Braun, and Sharpton don't have a vote in Congress.

So instead of being 1 in 9 to vote against it, he's really only 1 of 4 candidates who had the opportunity to vote against the war and did. He's not as unique as he's trying to claim.

Every candidate is going to get their spin in, and against Kerry, Dean will use the spin that Kerry voted for the war. I don't think his ads were aimed at Kucinich.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

45. I dont think so either..

but does that make false statements okay?

Out of the '4', Kucinich has been the most vocal and active.

TWL

[MissMillie]

52. I don't know that it's a false statement

unless Dean used the word "all".

I think the average Democrat can see that Dean is strategizing against Kerry and Gephardt.... probably two out of 3 of his closest opponents.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

54. let me paste the quote again ".. my opponents.."

DIRECT quote from the ad, I watched it several times to get it right.

"The best MY opponents could do is ask questions today, that they should have asked before they supported the war."

Is Kucinich not his opponent? Or is he being even more arrogant and dismissing Dennis Kucinich.

Either way, Dean loses points on my personal scorecard.

TWL

[Mairead]

104. "Dean didn't have a vote in Congress"

But most of the evidence indicates that if he had, he too would have voted for it, not against.

The evidence being (a) that right up through the Conason interview for Salon, Dean was in favor, and (b) he's all for handing Smirk the new 87G pocket money. Dennis, on the other hand, was against the invasion and massacre taking place, and is now against feeding the occupation that's creating new terrorists every day.

And I don't think it's by any means clear that Clark would have voted against.

[Tinoire]

46. Good for DK - It's time we help him and start complaining about this

to all the media outlets that are presenting this mis-leading information.


Dean had better apologize soon if he expects certain votes should he win the nomination. Things like this are only confirming my initial impression of Dean and it wasn't a very good one.



Power to the people!

[blm]

57. The media has been complicit in this subterfuge since February.

They always labeled Dean the liberal, antiwar candidate when he was NEITHER liberal or antiwar. While Dennis Kucinich was ACTIVELY seeking to stop the war and speaking in front of millions he was IGNORED by the media who trained all their attention on Dean, crediting him as the ONLY one speaking out against the war. The centrist Dean was never actually against the war itself, but supported the IWR with the Biden-Lugar amendment. A fact that was lost on many.

[sangh0]

59. And Dean has exploited that

and still doesn't seem to realize that the media is setting him up for a big fall.

[JohnKleeb]

63. Ive thought stupidly in hindsight dennis should have ran earlier

but remember when Dean was catching all those eyes, Kucinich was trying to stop the war in the house. BTW of course Dean didnt say all but it seemed like an implication to me. Christ all that damn Kucinich bashing I saw, hopefully it will subside but damnit it sure seemed like an implication to me.

[demrebel]

49. Dennis poll numbers in dem poll - ZERO!!!!

Shapiro Research Group, a (D) outfit, has the following Georgia poll. MoE +/- 6. No trend lines. (Men | Women)

Undecided 37 (33|40)
Clark 12 (17|9)
Lieberman 11 (11|11)
Gephardt 10 (11|9)
Dean 9 (9|10)
Sharpton 7 (9|6)
Braun 6 (2|8)
Edwards 3 (2|3)
Kerry 2 (3|2)
Kucinich 0

[Paulie]

55. MoE 6%

OMG.... with all those canidates around the MoE, WHO THE HELL KNOWS what the real numbers are.

[Mairead]

99. "with all those canidates around the MoE"

Exactly. It's nothing but noise. EARLY noise.

[TLM]

133. We may not know how bad Kucinich is doing....

but we can say for sure he's not a contender... he won't win one primary in one state.

That means he's not an opponent in my book.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

136. Hmm are you undecided?

You have posted that Dennis isn't a contender on this thread...6 times? 7?

But you have obviously made up your mind. If the polls are correct and Dean is leading, then all of the other candidates are not opponents using your system. Might as well just say "My opponents are all gaybashing homos nazi warmongerers peacniks.."(just to cover all bases)

Then we could argue all day that since Dean is leading he has no opponents.

According to the election law, Kucinich IS an OPPONENT.
Dean is presenting a LIE to the undecided voter.

TWL

[TLM]

138. No according to election law, Kucinich is a candidate...

so is larouche. Doesn't make either one an opponent.


"If the polls are correct and Dean is leading, then all of the other candidates are not opponents using your system. "

Not at all... my system is that you have to have at least a chance of wining at least one state... which kucinich does not.

[RapidCreek]

181. Gee...looks like that guy Undecided is the only Candidate in

Georgia.....wonder how he stands on the war?

RC

[killbotfactory]

64. Dean is worse than Hitler and Stalin combined.

With a little bit of Pol Pot thrown in for good measure.

[Bushknew]

77. LOL

that's a little much, killbotfactory.

thanks for the laugh. :-)

[ThirdWheelLegend]

78. sarcasm is fun

But you have a choice..

A)He makes a false statement in a televised political ad.

B)He is being arrogant and dismissing DK as an 'opponent'

Either way... is this a good thing or bad thing?

TWL

[killbotfactory]

81. With a side of Genghis Khan Chutney

He was responding to direct attacks from Kerry, Gephardt, and Lieberman. He was addressing them. Everyone knows it. I don't see it as a big deal.

I guess he could include a footnote which says (criticism does not apply to Kucinich, Braun, Sharpton, or Clark), but there's only 30 seconds he has to work with.

[Mairead]

102. Or he could tell the simple truth

You know, something like 'My opponent Dennis Kucinich has been speaking out against the war for almost 2 years. The best my OTHER opponents could do is ask questions today...'

Or would that be too hard for him, do you think?

[TLM]

139. Yeah Dean should have to devote half his 30 second ad...

to codling Kucinich and doing his campaigning for him...


And how arrogant and dishonest of you not to include CMB and Sharpton, who also were against the war, in your statement.


Clearly you're just lying or being arrogant by not including them as well.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

108. Phew what a relief!

I thought he was being dishonest.. but I never thought about the fact that he only had 30 seconds. I guess deception is ok when you are trying to budget time.

?!

TWL

[Mairead]

100. Do you know something we don't ?

Because the only thing we're saying is that he doesn't hesitate to tell obvious lies. Did he give up doctoring because he killed lots of people or something? Or are you just trying to deflect attention from the obvious lie he told?

[artr2]

68. I guess we could call this thread "the also-ran -

poor me masturbation thread" All of these DK supporters just wanting some publicity for their man. Your "candidate" polls what? 1 or 2%?? Please! Dean doesn't need to include DK because I have a better chance to win the WH that he does. You DK fans will be the ones that will give all the ammo to the repukkks when Carl launches the shit tornado after Dean wins the nomination. You DK supporter will probably vote green rater than vote for a democrat. So could I say that DK supporters are closet Bush supporters. OOPS, I guess this is all unsubstantiated but that’s where 90 % of the stuff you Kerry, DK, Red& Clark supporters get your shit to smear Dean with. You find the pettiest stuff to bring up too. OH guess what!!! Dean burped & farted at the same time and DIDN'T say excuse me!!!!!!!!! I guess I have to support someone else now. I couldn't possibly vote for someone so fucking rude. That's how most of you sound. Yada yada yada. To quote Bartcop "bite me"

[MuseRider]

70. Ya know

you Dean supporters can be the nicest people in the world. Some of you I have a great deal of respect for because you have spent a lot of time learning your candidate and his policies. You argue for him well and I admire that. Some of you admit his faults but you honestly still support him. We can argue policy all day long, respectfully. Then there are the Dean supporters who question nothing, argue by demeaning others and really have nothing substantial to say but you sure have fun being really snotty and mean. You go right ahead if it makes you feel better, you have lots of company.

[blm]

75. You are SO much nicer

than I am.
Civility is all I can muster up most days.

[MuseRider]

76. I NEVER said that

not once but the post I was refering to was about all I could take today. If I offended you I did not mean to, I honestly do not remember if we have ever really talked back and forth but if you had not been civil I probably would have remembered. Please, I meant the part about the Dean supporters in the first part of the post. It is the stuff I was responding to that really makes me wonder why a poster who would say that stuff does not see how he/she is doing exactly what the post was complaining about.

[blm]

96. Whoa...I really meant what I said ;) No sarcasm.

You really were being much nicer than I.

[MuseRider]

107. OH!

Well then thank you. I was not feeling particulary nice today so I was real touchy there.

[TLM]

140. Oh look you didn;t include CLark fans in your statement about who is rude

so clearly you are either lying or being so arrogant as to not include them.



Sucks having your whiny double standards used on you, don’t it?

[MuseRider]

146. Because I wasn't talking to you

I was responding to a Dean person. Doesn't suck at all when you pay attention.

[TLM]

149. Oh but i am a Dean person....

and the fact you dismiss me as not being a Dean person, proves you are either being arrogant or lying.


Wow... that whiny crap really can just apply to anything you say, can't it?

[MuseRider]

154. I was responding to SOMEONE ELSE!

Jesus, I don't care if you are supporting Mother Mary. I was responding to someone else, who is a Dean supporter. NOT TO YOU! Look, I am so very sick of this, I have not seen one thing that you have said that is anything more than mean spririted tripe meant to do the very thing I have just done and that is blow up. I have been voting for a very long time and I have never in my life seen such a move to "join up" than I have during this primary. I will not be joining you or if I do eventually I will not be sharing that with you all or asking your permission to join. Next time you want to call me names at least try to make sure I was at least talking to you before you lay into me.

[TLM]

170. So was Dean.... namely Lieberman and Kerry.

Dean wasn’t responding to Kucinich in his ad. Yet, you attack Dean for not making special efforts to include some disclaimer about Kucinich’s position in his statement... and I am simply holding you and the other Kucinich supports attacking Dean, to the same ridiculous standard. Not addressing someone in a statement not responding to them, according to you folks, is arrogant and dishonest.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

71. Does anyone want to take this one?

Maybe we should use this rant as Dean's campaign slogan. Sure to draw in alot of votes.

You go Deanie!

Oh yeah let me quote the ad again...

"The best MY opponents could do is ask questions today, that they should have asked before they supported the war."

Yeah you whiny DK supporters just because either...
a) Dean is making another false statement again
or
b) He is being arrogant and dismissing Dennis Kucinich as an 'opponent'
...get it together you whiny losers and vote for someone who might make some false statements once in a while rather than that rude loser DK!


TWL...oi vey

[MuseRider]

73. LOL

Your reply was MUCH better than mine. LOL good one, I got pissed. I TRY really hard not to get that way but sometimes.....That makes about 6 times today. I do not like to get this angry. I think I will go for a while.

[TLM]

141. Maybe I can put this in terms that you'll like, since you like Dennis...

Kucinich is polling at 1%...

HELLOoo!

[RapidCreek]

182. SO WHAT?

RC

[w4rma]

69. Yet another negative attack on Dean.

…
ATTACKS BY FELLOW DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES ON GOVERNOR DEAN

STARTING SEPTEMBER 1

Democrat hopefuls rip chief rival Dean; Kerry, Lieberman turn up heat on front-runner - AP, 9/1

Kerry slams Dean - Boston Globe, 9/1

Democratic White House Hopefuls Focus Attacks On Dean - The Bulletin's Frontrunner, 9/2

Kerry launches campaign, takes aim at Bush, Dean - Seattle Times, 9/3

Kerry Changes Stance, Takes On Dean New Campaign Tactic Highlights Differences Between Candidates - Boston Globe, 9/4

Rivals rip surging Dean - on paper; Democrats blast him in debate handouts - Dallas Morning News, 9/5

Lieberman Leads Attacks On Dean In First Debate - WSJ, 9/5

Dean's Quick Rise Makes Him Target Of His Own Party - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/7

Lieberman Criticizes Dean About His Remarks on Israel - NY Sun, 9/8

Taking a risk, Lieberman takes on front-running Dean - AP, 9/9

Edwards Critical of Dean Over Race Remark - AP, 9/10

Lieberman, Kerry rip Dean; Dems turn feisty in 2nd debate - Boston Globe, 9/10

Gephardt rips into Dean on health care - AP, 9/12

Presidential Candidate Congressman Gephardt Unleashed A Stinging Attack On Rival Howard Dean - FOX News, 9/12

Gephardt Attacks Dean on 2 Social Programs - NYT, 9/13

Gephardt accuses Dean of backing GOP policies - Baltimore Sun, 9/13

Gephardt criticizes Dean for past positions - Des Moines Register, 9/13

Gephardt plays hardball with front-runner Dean - Manchester Union Leader, 9/13

Gephardt Shifts Attacks to Dean - WP, 9/13

After Climbing To The Top, Dean Discovers He's A Target Rivals Set Sights On Front-Runner - Boston Globe, 9/14

In A Shift Of Strategy, Kerry Takes On Dean - Boston Globe, 9/14

Gephardt is latest to attack Dean - Chicago Tribune, 9/14

Gephardt Aims At Dean, Linking Him To Gingrich - St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/14

Kerry rips Bush but adds Dean hit - AP, 9/15

Gephardt Steps Up Criticism Of Dean, Says He Agreed With 'Gingrich Republicans' - Frontrunner, 9/15

Gephardt: An Attack A Day Keeps The Doctor At Bay? - Hotline, 9/15

Dean becomes a target - Newsday, 9/15

Gephardt Uses Web Site to Criticize Dean - AP, 9/16

Gephardt: Moredeanbashing.com - Hotline, 9/16

Kerry Openly Criticizes Dean's Stance On Tax Cuts For Middle Class Families - Frontrunner, 9/16

Still under attack, Dean goes easy on his rivals - AP, 9/17

Kerry Steps Up Attacks On Dean Over Trade - Frontrunner, 9/23

Kerry Attacks Rival Dean Over Protectionism - NYT, 9/23

Despite interest in Clark, Dean is still top target of other candidates - Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/25

Among the 10, Two Are Tested the Most; Newcomer Clark Avoids Serious Gaffes; Dean Withstands Sharper Challenges - WP, 9/26

10 Democratic rivals debate national woes, attack well-financed Dean and ignore newcomer Clark - Knight-Ridder, 9/26

Democrats spare Clark in his first debate and go after Dean - AP, 9/26

Democratic Candidates Focus Attacks On Dean In Primary Debate - Frontrunner, 9/26

Clark survives debate, as hopefuls target Dean; Candidates' attacks include a comparison to Gingrich - Dallas Morning News, 9/26

Debate Rivals Target Dean - Hartford Courant, 9/26

Debate: All Eyes On The General, All Attacks Aimed At Dean - Hotline, 9/26

Gephardt, Kerry attack Dean over prior views - Washington Times, 9/26

Dean Is Targeted by Rivals - LA Times, 9/26

Bush, Dean under attack in 10-way Democratic debate - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 9/26

Fellow Dems Diss Dean As Sparks Fly In Debate - NY Post, 9/26

Attacking the Leader; Debate barbs aimed at front-runner Dean - NY Newsday, 9/26

Party unity? The candidates were united, in going after Howard Dean - Phila. Inquirer, 9/26

Dean Takes The Heat From Rivals - Baltimore Sun, 9/26

Clark Debut Doesn't Change Democrats' Focus on Dean - NY Times, 9/27

Democratic rivals target Bush -- and Dean - Salon.com, 9/27

Gephardt attacks Dean Medicare record - AP, 9/29

Democrats: Candidates Criticize Dean's Record On Medicare - American HealthLine, 9/29

Gephardt Compares Dean's Record On Medicare To Gingrich's - Frontrunner, 9/29

Gephardt: Takes His Sparring With Dean To The Sunday Shows - Hotline, 9/29

Attacks on Dean may leave voters dizzy - St. Petersburg Times, 9/29

Dean Rivals Try To Turn His Comments On Key Issues Against Him - Frontrunner, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean For Bush Pact - NYT, 10/2

Rivals Target Dean's Blunt Comments - WP, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean Over '93 Nuclear Waste Accord - Frontrunner, 10/6

Kerry maintains attacks on Dean over Medicare - DMR, 10/7

Kerry: Still Hammering Away At Dean On Medicare - Hotline, 10/7

Clark, Dean Are Targeted in Debate - LA Times, 10/10

Gephardt roasts Dean on past political moves - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 10/12

Mutual Threat Unites 2 Rivals Opposing Dean - NYT, 10/12

Gephardt and Kerry unite against Dean - IHT, 10/13

Dean Continues To Draw Fire From Rivals At Des Moines AARP Forum - Frontrunner, 10/16

Other Candidates Again Target Dean; At Iowa Seniors Forum, He Is Chided for Views on Medicare, Bush Tax Cuts - WP, 10/16

'Divers' Dedicated to Dig Dirt on Dean - AP, 10/21

Edwards raps Dean on health plan - Manchester Union Leader, 10/21

Kerry Criticizes Dean Oversight of Vermont Egg Farm - AP, 10/22
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001964.html#more

[ThirdWheelLegend]

72. So the ad is perfectly fine?

This thread started about a misleading ad.

Apparently in your book it is not a problem and just another in a long line of ATTACKS on Dean.

I am not sure how Dean running a misleading ad turns into an attack on Dean.. but interesting analysis.

TWL

[sangh0]

79. It's a Republican ploy

Commits all sorts of misdeeds, and when your opponents point them out, cry "All they do is criticize"

[TLM]

142. The ad is at worst, insensitive to Kucinich’s ego.

Not counting Kucinich as an opponent is about the same thing as referring to a retarded kid as retarded, instead of saying he’s “special.”


Dean is all about the hard truth… and Kucinich not being an opponent of note, is the hard truth.

[janekat]

145. He just gives us so much ammo....

[TLM]

150. Which you then take and use to very effectively

shoot yourself in the foot.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

74. now we cant have that.

This thread made it to page 2 :P

Kick!

TWL

[sangh0]

80. "misguided and unfortunate."??

Though I'm sure Dennis appreciates the advice concerning how his complaint will be perceived, I have to wonder why Dean's campaign had nothing to say in defense of their ad's accuracy.

Nevermind.

[janekat]

84. Kuchinich "People have the right to expect better from a standard-

bearer of the Deam Party."

[poskonig]

87. I'm convinced! I'm voting for Kucinich now!

Kucinich needs to give voters a reason to vote for him. If I were to switch my vote from Dean, it would go to Kerry, and this unsubstantive attack does little to change my mind.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

89. Kucinich Is 100% Correct Here

Dean's ad is misleading. I'm disappointed but sadly not surprised that so many Dean supporters here are defending him on this.

DTH

[mzmolly]

97. Misleading? I dont think so, Deans opponents are not those

polling at 1-2%.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

103. lol, was this sarcasm...?

You responded to a post where someone says they are surprised that so many Dean followers are defending the fact that he either LIED or DISMISSED Dennis K as an 'opponent'. And then you defended him by trying to dismiss the other candidates.

Either way it is wrong and a bad move...
and the Deanies still see no fault.


TWL

[artr2]

156. So he dismissed him?

What's the big deal? Dean tells it like it is and if you don't like it don't vote for Dean. It's that simple. But if you really cared about your candidate why aren’t you out handing out fliers, doing voter registrations. I volunteer substantial chunks of my free time to my local Democratic party. I support my candidate with a portion of my purse. And occasionally I come in here and other chat rooms to fight for my guy. Just like you are fighting for yours. So can I truthfully say that each one of us believes that his guy (or Girl) is the absolute only person to defeat the BFEE and to get our country back to the citizens of it? And we are going to fight like hell because we believe that if the BFEE wins, it is the end of America.
So some of you may not respect me for what I have said in the past but if you are going to be critical of my guy, you better not be thin skinned because I am going give you back as good as you gave me.

[TLM]

160. THey seem to think Dean should have make some special effort

to include Kucinich's positions in his ads which were directed at the top tier candidates. Dean is not wasting time or money campaigning against Kucinich and CMB and sharpton... because they might as well not be in the race at all in terms of their poll numbers.

They are in the race only to raise visibility of some issues, and that's great, but now Kucinich is acting like Dean should have to spend extra time and money to coddle Dennis' ego and pretend he's a top tier guy.

[CWebster]

90. In the case of Clark swooners

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Your motives are transparent.

[mitchum]

101. So...The mayor of Vermont just forgot about the former mayor...

of Cleveland? That's just rude.

[Mairead]

105. "Mayor of Vermont" Nice one! :-)

Dean's supporters quite often seem to forget how small his responsibilities as governor really were.

[JohnKleeb]

109. Vermont and Cleveland are about the same size population wise

btw Ive really tried to be fair damnit but shit like this makes it hard for me, I tell you this, maybe Dean did mean only some of his opponents supported the war but he worded it horribly, and thats why I dont like this. We seem to forget that it was Dennis Kucinich not Howard Dean who worked his butt off trying to prevent the Iraq War Resolution from passing, to my knowledge most of the democrats in the house about 2/3 voted against IWR. So this time last fall and winter when Dean was gaining his support by being against this awful war, Dennis Kucinich was trying to do his job as a congressman to stop the war too.

[Paulie]

111. And He Did It Making Every Vote in the House

100% voting record. He's paid to be in the House, even during the campaign, he's still doing it.

Dennis Rocks!

[w4rma]

112. Kucinich was working very hard in the House to prevent this resolution

from passing.

Dean was working very hard campaigning for president against the resolution. Dean was much tougher and clearer than Kerry was (and is) on this invasion, IMHO.

Gephardt and Lieberman worked very hard to PASS the Iraq war resolution. I think Edwards might have also, but I haven't researched him enough.

Clark told the AP that he would advise Katrina Swett (Dem candidate for the House) to vote for the IWR if she was in office.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3306270,00.html

[ThirdWheelLegend]

114. But its ok that he lied in an ad?

It's all nice and well and appreciated that he was anti-iraw war. He still made a misleading deceptive ad.

Has the Dean campaign issued an apology or pulled the ad yet?

TWL

[mitchum]

164. I wish I had coined that (but I didn't)

It is good (and will be damning)

[TLM]

117. I feel bad for Kucinich, but this is just lame on his part.

He is desperately grasping as straws at this point.

Look at the offending line... "The best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before they supported the war."

Kucinich, CMB, and Sharpton didn't support the war... Dean isn't talking about them.

The very worst you could accuse him of is being dismissive to the guys who aren't top tier. Yeah it may be rude, but we really can't afford to coddle poor Dennis by pretending he's a real contender.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

119. Dumbfounded...

"Yeah it may be rude, but we really can't afford to coddle poor Dennis by pretending he's a real contender. "

That's the attitude we want in a President? Don't we already have a condescending attitude in office? Well sort of, except that guy doesn't try and pretend to be on the same team.

Truly dissapointed in the reactions from Deanies here.

TWL

[TLM]

147. Listen, you have the luxury of indulging your fantasy that DK can win…

Dean does not. Dean has a few seconds to get a point across in direct response to attacks from Kerry and Lieberman. Are you seriously suggesting he should have to set aside time in his ad to treat Kucinich with kid gloves and point out that the guy polling 1% wasn’t for the war and that he’s not talking about him?

Jesus Christ… maybe he should just donate his whole fucking ad to stroking Kucinich’s ego for him? And I notice not one of the Kucinich supporters who are throwing a fit over this even mentioned CMB or Sharpton who were also against the war.

Obviously, by your standards that means since they only mentioned Kucinich when talking about who Dean should have to acknowledge as being anti-war, they are all arrogant and lying, since they neglected to include CMB and Sharpton.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

151. I promised myself

I was done with this thread.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KUCINICH'S EGO. IT HAS TO DO WITH:

A) Dean lied
or
B) Dean arrogantly dismissed a fellow candidate HE deems unelectable

Both seem perfectly acceptable to you.

I hope I am done with this thread.

Early on... my personal choices for candidate...

1)Dean.. 2) the rest
after Dennis started running
1)Kucinich 2)Dean 3)the rest
later
1)Kucinich 2)Sharpton 3)Dean 4)Braun 5)the rest
after Dean's SS age mis-statement(well thats the nice word it was given)
1)Kucinich 2)Sharpton 3)Braun 4)Dean 5)Kerry 6)the rest
time goes on... after the latest ad lie and after I learn more about the candidates
1)Kucinich 2)Sharpton 3)Kerry 4)Braun, Edwards others 5)Dean and Clark

Kerry has been moving up for me, Dean has been going nowhere but down. To you these 'non lies' may not matter, but to me these 'lies' do matter.


TWL

[ima_sinnic]

155. Dean didn't "lie"

DK is as much an "opponent" as Lyndon LaRouche, Carol Moseley-Braun, and Al Sharpton. There are other candidates too, you know, and there will be right through Election Day 2004. Every election probably since George Washington's time has had obscure people known only to a handful of people who run as write-ins. There are also the perennial Communist and Socialist Workers candidates. Are these people "opponents"? I always thought of them as interesting people who were using the opportunity to get a message out and also gauging the ups and downs of public reaction to that message--but the real race is among the few at the front of the pack. Just like any kind of race, when the frontrunners outpace the others, those others are no longer "opponents."

[RapidCreek]

183. Yea keep telling yourself that.

he must beat the lower tier candidates in an election to win the nomination, mustn't he? That being the case, the lower tier candidates are his opponents.

You say - Just like any kind of race, when the frontrunner's outpace the others, those others are no longer "opponents." Have you ever watched a running, automobile or bicycle race? Evidently not. If you had, you would be aware of the fact that everyone in a race is an opponent until someone crosses the finish line.....last I heard that hasn't happened.

Your boy told a lie...and he got called on it. Trying to rationalize what he did is nothing short of pathetic. A person of integrity admits when they have fucked up and takes their lumps.

RC

[Terwilliger]

157. You know, if you feel that way

shouldn't Dean go after Dennis? Clark? Kerry? Shouldn't they tell him to shutup and get out of the race?

If that's what they should do, then why don't they say it?

[TLM]

162. Why would he need to "go after Dennis"?

When he is polling so low... same with CMB and Sharpton. They're already out. The guy at the head of the race doesn't worry about the guy in last place... he worries about the guys in 2nd and 3rd.

Because the guy in last place isn't "in the race" as much as he is just "on the track."

[Democat]

143. Dean is stupid for attacking Democrats, Kucinich is stupid for this too

This whole mess just makes Democrats look like wimpy idiots.

[Dover]

159. Dean is really foolish to alienate Kucinich supporters. If Dean

were to maintain his lead, and Kucinich doesn't make it through the primaries, where do you think Kucinich supporters would go? Many might have gone to Dean.

Same goes for Dean supporters. What a terrific group you are too, if this thread is any indication. (sarcasm intended).

[TLM]

163. What all 12 of them?

[Desertrose]

166. I am always amazed at the

downright obnoxious arrogance of some Dean supporters.....

Did someone apppoint you the final word on DK support? No I didn't think so....

...all this nasty attide crap says more about the character of the poster than the one he attacks....
Peace
DR

[Mairead]

176. "says more about the character of the poster"

Too true, DR. Well, the obnoxious ones are just kids...for some it's part and parcel with the pimples and the raging hormones. They haven't learnt yet how to behave as adults, and it shows.

[JohnKleeb]

171. Actually oddly enough if Dennis were to lose even before this

I didnt have Dean in mine as my 2nd choice.

[genius]

165. All candiates should stand up for truth and against Howard's lies

Dean makes all Democrats look bad like Bush makes the Republicans look bad.

[lostnfound]

168. I've contributed to both, so now I'm MAD at BOTH n/t

Dean definitely should NOT have treated Kucinich like that, and Kucinich shouldn't treat us like that, the Democrats who want our candidates to show more solidarity.

[dkf]

172. A ha

From the Dean Blog:

Do NOT worry about Dennis Kucinich's hissy fit. I'm a constituent and have campaigned for Dennis. This is SOP for him. He never has money for campaigns so he threatens lawsuits whenever he gets his panties in a bunch in order to get earned media.

He plays the angry, 'can't get no respect' everyman when it's convenient. It's kinda troll like in a strange sort of way. Trust me on this one I've seen it in Cleveland a million times.

Posted by wendy in cleveland at October 26, 2003 12:55 AM

[ibegurpard]

179. Lame

Talk about parsing...Kucinich is grasping at straws.

[REP]

184. Kucinich Is Making An Attempt At Getting Some Publicity

Attacking one of the most popular and talked-about candidates would be a clever way to try to get publicity, but all it will do is show Kucinich's bad temper, shrillness and total lack of humor. I'll be surprised if this story is more than a One Day Wonder.

Kucinich's only opponent is himself. Even the fawning article in The Nation made him look humorless, petty and bad-tempered. Odd to see the one who speaks of a Department of Peace lose his cool so often.