How many DU Kucinich supporters actually think he will...

[NoMoreRedInk]

win our party's nomination?

I love the guy, but I don't think he stands a snowball's chance. What do you think?

[goforit]

1. Only time will tell!!!...........Anyway Bush will steal it again!!!

But will the people stand for this a second time is the questrion!!

We need another polling system that will counter check the other!!!

Got any ideas?

[NoMoreRedInk]

2. I totally agree that Bush will take it by hook or by crook.....

I was talking about the Dem nomination. Can he win that? Honestly.

[thebigidea]

3. like, totally!

Like, it would be so gnarly to NOT EVEN BOTHER running a candidate! Bush is like, just so unstoppppppable!

[RapidCreek]

23. Not with support like yours he can't.

How the hell is it, do you think, that the candidate you love, wins a nomination?

You say that you love the guy, which would lead one to believe that you love what he stands for. Love infers, first and foremost, devotion. Yet, your words indicate a clear lack of devotion to Mr. Kuchinic and that which he stands for. Thus, your assertion "I love the guy" is disingenuous at best.

I get quite a charge out of Democrats who suggest Mr. Kuchinic epitomizes everything a Democrat should be, while simultaneously claiming that he is unelectable and not worthy of support for that very same reason. This mindset is indicative of those who operate under the arrogant and mistaken impression, they have cleverly disguised as pragmatism, their lack of moral conviction, integrity, devotion, fortitude, ambition, intellect and persuasive ability. All of these qualities are necessary in a political winner. His success, however, depends on these qualities being reflected in those whom he depends upon for support, in all its forms. The quantitative proportions of each, depend upon the level of virtue that winner and his or her supporters posses.

It's really this simple...if you and the rest of the Democrat's, would prefer to marginalize then abandon a candidate who projects those virtuous qualities which you claim personify the Democratic Party and instead give your support to a candidate who does not, then the candidate who does not, will win. Will you, though? Will the Democratic Party?

I think we all need to ask ourselves....Are we Democrats or Equivocrats?


RC




For those who are unfamiliar with the word Equivocate

Merriam Websters Dictionary Definition

Main Entry: equiv·o·cate
Pronunciation: i-'kwi-v&-"kAt
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ing
Date: 1590
1 : to use equivocal language especially with intent to deceive
2 : to avoid committing oneself in what one says
synonym see LIE

[ThirdWheelLegend]

edited title .. Amazing post

I edited the title because it was silly and did not convey how much I really liked your response.

Thanks for a great post.

GO DENNIS!!!

Cheers,
TWL

[RapidCreek]

28. Your Welcome TWL!

My pleasure.

RC

[Mairead]

30. Beautifully said!

You captured it in a nutshell. If those who say they think his policies are great put their money where their mouth is, he will win. But if the most they give him is lip service while giving money and energy to some less-preferred candidate, then it's anyone's guess what will happen.

[Abe Linkman]

4. No chance at all. He blew it from the get-go.

Kucinich made the fatal mistake of trying to get the BIG Mo going thru positioning himself to appeal to the anti-War crowd. The public at large is uneasy with anti-War candidates, and besides, there is a huge audience of dissaffected Americans who feel our standard of living has been rapidly slipping away. He should have based his candidacy on an appeal to THEM.

[RapidCreek]

25. You mean anti-war candidates like Dean and Clark?

He has based his candidicy on the plummting standard of living...Why do you suppose he asserts at almost every turn his intention to kill NAFTA and end our participation in the WTO? For shits and giggles?


RC

[tinanator]

29. you're thinking of someone else

Kucinich actually IS anti-war. And very popular with the informed public. he can win more than the nomination, because he isnt Coke or Pepsi. He's the real thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. You said that on the other thread a while ago

and I answered you there, and you're still wrong.

He has gotten the most publicity for his anti-war stance, and rightly so, but his platform is loaded with economic proposals.

[Ardee]

61. So america is pro war?

I will never ever believe that, and neither does Dennis thank you.I support him with my time, my money and my heart and soul and whether or not anyone thinks he has a snowballs chance in hell makes no never mind to me. This is one voter who votes his conscience and whose vote is not cynically for sale.

It ismore important that the truth be heard, whether or not some think it to be a losing strategy because, very simply, not to speak the truth is to perpetuate the lies. Replacing Bush with another version of a corporate toady gains us nothing.

[rucky]

5. No...but I'm still voting for him n/t

[ThirdWheelLegend]

6. Interesting no Kucinich supporters ..

think he will win! LOL never expected that.

Ok since I am the first Kucinich supporter on the thread.(ON EDIT: Rucky beat me!)

YES, I think he will win.

My only doubts come from within the party and here at DU. The AMAZING amount of apathy disturbs me.

It's kind of funny, but not really. If I had a nickel for every time someone posted something to the effect of...
" I really like Kucinich the best..or..I really agree with Kucinich the most... or... Kucinich represents my views the best...", followed by,"But he is UNELECTABLE so I support XXXXX".


MAN I WOULD BE RICH! Well at least could buy alot of beer.
What's funny/not funny about it is that he would be perfectly electable if all these people would realize it's a myth that is made real by buying into it and if they would just vote for him...argh!

Anywho

GOOOOO DENNIS.

TWL

[bobthedrummer]

7. My family is voting for him in Wisconsin Feb. 17th, lots of people are

and you are spot on about voting ThirdWheelLegend.

[Desertrose]

9. Hey..I just found this thread....

wasn't sure I even wanted to look at it....today has been quite the day for those to rag on Dennis!!

what amazes me is this -if he is so unelectable and so far behind...why is everybody so intent on trashing him.........hmmm...I mean why bother???? Like they just want to make sure we know he is unelectable and there for won't "waste" a vote on him. Anyone follow that logic?

But I agree TWL.....I think he has a way better shot a winning than anyone ( 'cept for some of us DK supporters )think...

Yes I think he can-will win the nom...and beat *

Go Dennis!!!
Peace
DR

[ThirdWheelLegend]

14. I am ashamed to admit..

but I belive I have spent over 8 hours on DU today!!!!!!!!!!!
What a way to spend my day off... sheesh!

It has been one hell of rag-on-dennis day! :)

GO DENNIS!

Thanks DR and BTD



p.s.
I spent the day.. Defending Kucinich and dealing with that whole Dean TV spot. Man could a Dean supporter ever just admit he may be wrong ONCE. I can help... Dennis is wrong about flag burning. There maybe that will help loosen up a Deanie :P

TWL

[Padraig18]

52. Fair enough

I'll concede the ad was, at minimum, poorly worded---DK is obviously an opponent, just like any of the other 8 are; anyone with as much $$$ as Howard has should hire a better media firm to produce the ads.

As for the 'rag-on'DK' day, it was just his turn in the barrel; tomorrow will be someone else's turn. DU is cyclical like that, I've noticed--- the attacks tend to come in concentrated waves. DK should be in the clear for a while, until his 'turn' comes up again. :P

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

16. still think Dems won't vote to bomb Tehran?

:shrug:

[IranianDemocrat]

21. Ya the Dems suck.

Time to vote for St. Ralph and make everything better. What the hell is your point?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

22. maybe that there is a DEM worth voting for...

and a whole hell of a lot of people just blow him off and insult him.

That might be it, but nah you are definitely right!

COME ON EVERYBODY LETS GO VOTE FOR NADER!

Shit I am gonna cheat and hack the machines to make everyones vote for nader but only to -1 of Bush's! HAHHAHA Greens are the devil!

I'm better now!

TWL

[RapidCreek]

26. What is yours?

Thus far you've offered absolutely nothing of substance.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

17. Thank you for showing ..

the arrogance and disrespectfulness of Clark supporters.

I guess that's my only logical reply.
And also this will be my last reply to this subthread.

Have a nice day/night/afternoon.

TWL

[Mairead]

33. "If I had a nickel"

Yes! I've calculated that if I had even a dollar a month from every person I've ever heard say 'DK's views are closest to mine but he can't win so I'm supporting X instead' I would have all the income I'd ever need for a comfortable life.

[LeahMira]

60. You are right...

What's funny/not funny about it is that he would be perfectly electable if all these people would realize it's a myth that is made real by buying into it and if they would just vote for him...argh!

Unfortunately it seems that people like to say that they voted for the guy that eventually won... more than they like to say that they voted for the guy that they wanted!

The country goes plodding along, never changing course in any significant way, because the guy that is least different from the incumbent is the one who gets the nod. That's why I think that Lieberman will eventually get the nomination, and although I am going to be seriously disappointed if that happens, we could do worse I guess.

As long as Bush is defeated, we all really win. That's bottom line.

Still, wouldn't it be great...

[youngred]

62. The problem is

the odds of that myth being overturned are so slim that it doesn't look possible. I'm working for him and spreading the word to try and overturn it, but I don't have terrible amounts of faith in that heppening.

[jiacinto]

8. The reparations comment has all but ended his campaign

nt

[Desertrose]

11. ......and thus spake

.........jiacinto....

boom boom boom boom boom boooom...cue the theme from 2001!
(sorry couldn't resist.....but you get the idea.....)
:evilgrin:

Peace
DR

[greendog]

10. I think he'll win a few states ...

After the first few primaries it will become obvious who the eventual winner will be. Corporate money will stop flowing to the percieved losers and they'll drop out.

In a two person race DK will garner a lot more attention. Many will find his message appealing. Others will be dissatisfied with the mainstream candidate and vote for DK as a protest.

I think he'll win several of the later primaries and go to the convention with a few delegates. Perhaps he'll be able to influence the party platform.

[Cat Atomic]

13. Kucinich is very progressive, and supporting him can help steer

the other candidates leftwards. Do I think he can win? I have no idea. But I like what he stands for, and guys like Leiberman apparently need visual aids to entice them away from the right.

[Terwilliger]

15. I dont think I think so...

but I don't know for sure

[ulysses]

41. I think, therefore

I am. I think. ;-)

See you next week, bro!

[caledesi]

18. Kucinich is done. nt

[snoochie]

19. Asking if we think he will is asking us to play psychic games.

No point in that really, is there? Unless you're into sports and stuff, and then you just really enjoy trying to predict this or that and then act all smug if you're right and you can feel all superior to the ones that were wrong.

It's essentially meaningless.

But this isn't meaningless. I see in this election an opportunity. A golden, shining opportunity when most people are going to be so fed up with bush and so ready to hear and respond to Dennis's message of hope and all the ideas he has for improving our lives, that not only will he absolutely slaughter Bush, but he'll have coattails like FDR's and we'll take back Congress too!

All we have to do is get his message out to everyone currently being pummeled with info on the other candidates 24/7.

Do I think he will win? I don't know, I don't play those games.

Do I think he can?

Hell, yes!

[genius]

20. I do

All it takes is for everyone to vote their conscience.

[RapidCreek]

27. Some people have no concience

and deep, deep down inside, the believe Rush is right!

[Padraig18]

32. And some Democrats...

...with consciences don't happen to share DK's visions.

[Terwilliger]

34. Nor Kerry, nor Dean, nor Clark

whats your point?

[Padraig18]

35. My point is simple.

The inherent assumption that if 'we' (non-DK supporters) would simply vote our consciences, we would support DK instead of the candidate we do support; it's there, it's said here at DU all the time, and it's arrogant and condescending as hell. It irritates me and the supporters of other candidates here at DU all to hell.

Who died and made DK the sole bearer of truth and light, and who made his supporters the arbiters of what is or is not a 'real' Democrat? It's beginning to wear very thin...

[Terwilliger]

38. well, it's early yet

there's a year to go...hell, 6 months before we know who will emerge

It's. Just. Getting. Interesting!

[JohnKleeb]

40. That it is Terwill

I for one hate this train of thought, I know it will damn hard for him to get the nomination but I think its worth it, if we had been thinking like this in 1991-1992 we would have Tsongas or Cuomo, I am just saying frontrunners arent always the nominee, and I know Lieberman/Kerry were the original ones. Yogi Berra once said it aint over till its over, and you know what I believe thats true, even if we arent polling the best, anything can happen, besides the ideals live on, I am one of the few who doesnt hate idealism.

[Padraig18]

43. I don't like these sorts of threads either, tbh.

Another reason sorts of these threads irritate me is because they're not really an invitation to openly discuss the question; they're simply "Please nod and say yes" posts. That goes for whoever posts them, be they pro- or anti-DK.

[Terwilliger]

48. Is that like supporting Clark when his positions aren't clear?

that sort of thing?

[Padraig18]

49. Huh? Ask a Clark supporter. n/t

[Padraig18]

42. Hehe

"Interesting" is a good word to describe it. :hi:

[JohnKleeb]

44. No I meant "that it is"

God I hope I could walk good today without pain, I am tired although I got a good amount of sleeep and sore on parts of my arm and knee. Just hope one day that the shit that makes our country awful will just disappear, how I yearn for the future yet at the same time wish to see the past.

[charlie]

45. Hey, look for thebigidea

He's bringing a video camera. Wouldn't it be great if you wound up in one of those bent hallucinations he posts here?

Be careful, John. Enjoy your day and let us know how it went...

[JohnKleeb]

46. Yeah sure

I am probably one of the few who is going that is here now, being that I live near and I bet some of the others arent up.

[snoochie]

55. That's a mistaken assumption, then.

"The inherent assumption that if 'we' (non-DK supporters) would simply vote our consciences, we would support DK instead of the candidate we do support..."

No, these kinds of messages are not aimed at all supporters of other candidates. That's the detail you leave out in your assumption. This type of message is specifically for those who say they would prefer Dennis, but they better vote for X because the smart people said to.

That would be forfeiting what you believe because, IMHO, you've been effectively scared away from supporting the candidate you actually prefer.

This DK supporter feels this kind of sabotage of progress chips away at the meaning and intent of Democracy and call me a nut but it nearly breaks my heart.

[RapidCreek]

57. I am not a supporter of Dennis Kuchinic

I may be at some point. The more people make noise about his "electibility", the more closely I look at Dennis. Particularily when "electability" is a term those people purposefully use to disguise with a benign, palatable term, their strongly held belief that superficial traits are the cardinal qualifier of a candidates validity. To me, this sort of rational, is clearly condescending, arrogant, ignorant and if one calls oneself a Democrat, hypocritical. In an elementary sense, it reminds me of the man who, on a rainy day says "I can't fix the roof because it is raining" and on a clear day, "There's no need to fix the roof because it isn't leaking". In any case I will vote my conscience when the time comes and conscience has little to do with false pragmatism.

RC

[neebob]

24. I can't say I think he will win

but I think he can and I hope he does.

[eridani]

31. Can he? Yes. Will he?

Whothehell knows? Either we manage to overcome the marginalization effect of the media by organizing under the radar, or we don't. In the best of all possible worlds, he wins the primary and the general election. What happens to his 10 point agenda then? Nothing--unless people who are for his agenda take active citizenship roles in making it happen. Win or lose, what his supporters are doing right now needs to be done either way.

Universal health care instead of the Bush tax cuts is supported by 72% of the people the Pew Foundation interviewed, including 51% of Republicans! How goddam mainstream is that? Yet DK's agreement with the mainstream position is painted as marginal lefty hoohah--by the same jackasses who insure that the only way Physicians for National Health Care found to publicize the survey was to link to AlGODDAMJazeerah!!

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/september/aljazeerah_reports_r.php

The same media couldn't be bothered to report that the California Senate passed Single Payer--even California media! Google Kuehl and 'health care' and all you get is a bunch of activist websites. (The recall has probably shitcanned bringing the bill up in the Assembly.)

This kind of whiteout is obviously a huge barrier. We'll either overcome it or we won't, but I for one am not giving up until Dennis does.

[JohnKleeb]

36. No but its worth trying for

I know it will be very hard but if we got hope and work hard and worked we could get more.

[bleedingheart]

37. I like his ideas but I find it unsettling that my boss in Cleveland won't

support him and that is Kucinich's home turf and my boss is a democrat...

[Terwilliger]

39. he has a history

http://www.clevelandmagazine.com/editorial/thismonth_features.asp?docid=363

Lots of info in this article.

[LWolf]

47. Who knows? It's early yet.

And there are currently 9 contenders.

Do I think he can? No doubts.

Do I think he will? I hope so.

Do I think the attempts to defeat him early with the "electable" crap are credible? Hell no.

[bywho4who]

51. Kucinich

The media has the power to make or break this thing. WE all know who has the media in there corner. The peanuts are scared to death of this man bottom line.

[newyawker99]

53. Hi bywho4who!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[youngred]

54. I don't think he will

but this is my way of telling the party how I feel without voting third party. Dennis is a great guy whom I think would make a great president, but its not going to happen

[juajen]

56. I hoped from the beginning that his candidacy

would change the thinking in our party and move it leftward. I think his candidacy has done well in this regard. I hope it will still make a difference.

No, I do not think he will get the nomination. I hope he makes a good showing in Iowa and I hope he runs for the senate in Ohio and becomes the new conscious of the Senate. Go Dennis! You are a marvel.

[ShaneGR]

58. Well, I'm in Ohio, Kucinich's home state

And I can, without a doubt, tell you he is not going to win this state. Period. Not going to happen. He doesn't have enough support in his home county, let alone the southern and rural areas of the state.

[Mairead]

59. I think it's significant and warming that more and more people

are saying 'maybe' rather than 'hell no'. Perhaps it's only that most of the knee-jerks have stopped auto-twitching every time they see a DK thread, but it's welcome any road.