when the margin of error exceeds your score in EVERY poll…

[pruner]

it's fair to say that you're a less than marginal factor.

[Don_G]

1. More Simply

Less than marginal or a piece of shit to the less educated.

Why the question? Did Dimbo have a new poll?

[pruner]

2. it's in regard to the Kucinich-Dean debate

n/t

[ThirdWheelLegend]

3. so therefore

this clears jesus, I mean Dean of all possible lies or deception.

Yay another blame the messenger thread!

TWL

[pruner]

4. that's not the point

what I'm trying to say is that there's no reason to expect Dean to view Kucinich as an "opponent"… they're playing on completely different fields.

sorry to have to be so blunt, but Kucinich is a bottom-tier candidate… and he's at the bottom of that tier.

Dean is the fronrunner… his "opponents" are the people fighting him for that position. Kucinich is not one of them.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

5. well I have a different view and you won't like it

because it is a LIE. And that is the straight truth.

You may not see it that way because you are a Dean supporter, so you 'understand' what he 'meant'.

But this is a primary with 9 candidates.

THERE ARE UNDECIDED VOTERS who see NINE candidates that they can vote for. Dean is encompassing them all in his ad.

That is MISINFORMING the voters, by LYING to them.

Your reasoning doesn't even work if everyone was polling 0% and Dean had 99%, because there is still one percent undecided! So he would be LYING to that 1%.

TWL

[JackSwift]

7. No, get the facts right

there are 9 candidates for the Democratic nomination that the press and each other give the time of day to. There are 100 candidates for the Democratic nomination in any given presidential election year. (And no, I don't know who any of them are. But Harold Stassen used to be one of the Republicans who ran every year, and he was one of the more credible ones, having been a governor.) And you've just set a standard that you are going to treat all of them with equal dignity, including the hundred wacko ones. Just cuz you and I think they are wacko doesn't mean they are. These people are pure as the driven snow: they take no money, they spend no money, it's just a vanity run. Now I think that Kucinich should be given a place in the debates and I don't think the wackos should be. But I can see the point of people who say he shouldn't be unless he can raise his poll numbers or money. I don't agree with them, but I see their point. I think that the bottom tier dems add a lot to the race. Except for Lieberman. He's a Dennis Leary.

[charlie]

6. Haha

Yeah, I'm sure that's what the audience for that spot is naturally going to think: "Yes, Governor Dean has been the only vocal opponent to the war, except of course for those other three I can't remember the names of standing on the stage with him in every debate. But I know better to count them, so he's right." Sure.

Dean knows what he's doing. It's politics, for pete's sake, just own up to it and forget it.

[w13rd0]

8. You are correct...

...I see no value in even getting upset or commenting on this. Yes, Kucinich has been a vocal opponent of war. Dean did not mention him, and I didn't expect that he would. He referred to "his opposition" for the primary, and quite frankly, Kucinich isn't, not insofar as these issues are concerned. Is Kucinich in favor of the Iraq war, the Bush tax cuts? If he isn't, why is he offended that he isn't included in that group?

[charlie]

9. Heh. There it is again

This parsing over the definition of who's a real opponent is disengenuous. Even the most out of touch voter occasionally watches TV, listens to radio, reads the news, and hears about the "9 Democratic hopefuls." In the televised debates, there's 9 candidates on the stage, and they're not all Howard Dean. 8 of them are his opponents.

Dean "did not mention" Kucinich? He didn't mention anybody. He just finessed the records of three opponents by implicit exclusion. Dean wants the anti-war mantle solely for himself and he's doing what it takes to get it. That's politics, and he's playing it. I can accept a Dean supporter calling it no big whoop, but the contortions some are going through to shoehorn a select few candidates into "real opponent" status, so as to innoculate Dean from charges of political gamesmanship is amusing.

[w13rd0]

10. You are right...

...it's parsing language, and it's not because I'm saying Dennis isn't a "real opponent", I'm saying that Dean's criticisms DIDN'T APPLY TO DENNIS. Good golly, do you want Dean to do a televised serenade to DK? I'm not minimizing anyone's candidacy, I'm saying that it is wise for Dean not to mention anybody, because that's just giving them free publicity, like saying "Dean, Dean, Dean" while walking away from an interview. Absolutely it's political gamesmanship, and hell, I don't want to innoculate Dean from charges that he's capable of political gamesmanship, because we'll NEED political gamesmanship to defeat Bush.

I'm not a Dean supporter that "thinks of him as the new vanilla Jesus" or considers some of his statements, positions or policies beyond reproach. But there's not another candidate out there with a lick of a chance at beating Bush with a campaign that is more receptive and responsive to the voices of its supporters. I've watched the campaign listen and respond to the concerns and questions of its supporters, on issues large and small. It's a campaign that's been aggressive, dynamic, vocal and fun.

At no point in the past few months have I ripped on DK, I respect the principled stances he takes and the opposition to Bush he's voiced, but unlike many here, I don't find myself most closely aligned with him on the issues. I think that those making much noise about this should recognize that this is political gamesmanship coming from DK as well...

[charlie]

11. Okay

...do you want Dean to do a televised serenade to DK?

Ha! Sure, that's what I'm asking for... c'mon, you know better than that.

You're positive Dean's criticisms didn't apply to Dennis. But the message wasn't just for you, it was for the public, savvy and ill-informed alike. His message did apply to Dennis. It could've been something like, "I, Howard Dean, was sticking it to Bush back when it mattered, before we got into this quagmire, etc, etc..." (See? No mention of DK or anyone else), but that wouldn't achieve the desired result -- some knucklehead watching the next debate and saying, "Look there Wilma, that's the only guy with enough gumption right out of the gate to hit Bush for this Iraq mess."

At no point in the past few months have I ripped on DK...

Same here. I've never slagged Dean. This criticism is for these instances of silly spin trying to hold him above political tactics.

...should recognize that this is political gamesmanship coming from DK as well

Could be. I don't know if petitioning the FEC is wise or anything more than trying to extract maximum publicity from this. But you should recognize that of the two, it's Kucinich (and AS and CMB) who have a genuine grievance.