This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed

[ShaneGR]

I realize there is another thread on this event, but I feel a HEALTHY dialogue is in order about how this rally was held. Yes, I have some criticism. No, I do not think the rally is necessarily a bad thing. I expect some flaming, but perhaps I can explain my problem.

The organizers of this rally advertised it as a march about 3 things:

1. Bringing our troops home.

2. Spending the money we are spending in Iraq on Americans.

3. Protesting John Ashcroft, and the Patriot Act.

This sounded great to me! I actually checked into going myself, but unfortunately I was unable to attend.

But, I'm watching the rally on TV and I have to admit that I'm kind of glad I didn't make it to this one.

There have been plenty of speakers talking about Iraq, the Patriot Act, and Bush. A lot of them were very good. I LOVED THE RAGING GRANNIES! I was also very impressed by some of the veteran group speakers. There were also a couple good speakers focusing on deficit spending and getting our tax dollars to work in America, not to work in Iraq.

The BIG problem is that those speakers message, which generally stuck with the 3 Goals of the rally, has largely been drowned out by several factors:

1. The organizers presented an unbelievable amount of speakers from special interest internet sites. Over half of the speeches have ended with "Go to our website." I was particularly fond of all of the free mumia people.

2. The organizers have presented foreign born speakers to account for around half of the overall talking. So in between talking about the 3 main goals of the rally, we hear about American atrocity in the Philipines, South Korea, North Korea, the Middle-east, South America, Central America, Nexico, Africa.... You name it, they found someone from one of those countries. And a few of the speakers openly talked about working with groups who are involved with the Iraqi Resistance (That group shooting at our soldiers.) I was also surprised to find that the South Koreans have forgotten the North Koreans INVADED THEM, not us. And those Phillipino activists had nice red headbands.

3. The organizers did a poor job of prepping those speakers, they should have been told NOT TO SCREAM ALL OF THE TIME. There are microphones, screaming from beginning to end just scares people.



So, my main problem is that they advertised one kind of event, and provided another. If the anti-war movement is going to garner ANY kind of momentum, it has to stick with basic principles that ALL Americans are interested in. Telling Americans that nothing they have ever done is positive, does not solve anything.

[papau]

1. That is what I saw also - Answer pulls folks - but what is the agenda?

I am a Dem - not a US basher.

What Bush is doing sucks - but the US is not all evil, the way these folks made it sound.

I think the father the Dem party is from these folks, the better.

[bpilgrim]

107. How Can WE Expect to WIN When We Eat Our Own?

i think yall watch too much teeVee an expect everything to be STERILIZED and CONTROLLED just like the madison ave boys have trained us to expect.

we need to wake up and get in the REAL WORLD...

It is a RALLY

post protest images in the GALLERY...
http://bbs.globalfreepress.com/coppermine/

peace

[Scott Lee]

124. Calling a spade a spade

I didn't get, from the rally, that the USA was "all evil" at all. What I saw was a very hard, very relevent slamming of a government policy that needs to die no matter which party is in power. That policy is Manifest Destiny, which implies it is the USA's right to invade and occupy any country at any time for any reason.

As a Democrat, do you feel that Manifest Destiny is "our" right, and a good policy? In a world of shrinking resources and blooming population, is it even a practical idea, let alone an ethical one?

BushCo has merely taken this foul ideology and amped it to it's next level (Preemptive War). The marchers were right on target to denounce this sick and twisted way of interracting with the rest of the world. Not only are Manifest Destiny and Preemptive War morally bankrupt policies, but they are serving to do the opposite of their intention - they are making us more isolated and the number of our enemies grow.

I salute the brave people who marched in D.C. Let this not be the last gathering we see on this issue.

[Name removed]

305. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Neecy]

2. I agree

If we're going to truly build a movement, it needs to have a laser focus on THE WAR, not on Cuba, or Nicaragua, or the Phillipines, or anti-Zionism.

I realize that the point many of these speakers had was to draw historical parallels to the current US actions in Iraq. However, it was lost in a rage of anti-US rhetoric and militant solidarity to the Iraqi Resistance movement (which couldn't appear because they're so busy shooting RPG's into our troops).

Still, I give them credit for mobilizing and doing something. Perhaps it's time to have a march organized by left-center Democrats where some of our representatives can actually attend and not have to associate themselves with 'unity' with North Korea, or f*ck Bush chants. It's up to us to do that, we know the DNC won't bother.

[bandy]

16. I agree...

I kinda felt left out as a Dem desperately wanting our troops to come home NOW. Still - just them being there in such great numbers makes a better statement then me sitting on my butt at this puter. My hat is off to all who made a showing at this event. Just wish they would get the new coverage they deserve.

[Ardee]

153. Living in paradise

must be very nice if a bit mind numbing......

Of course the US foreign policy is going to come under attack, dont you understand what our government and our corporations are doing to the rest of the world? We overthrew one dictator yet support and do business with scores of them world wide. We are perceived as the devil out there and it is because folks here, as amply represented on DU,cannot stand to hear or bother to understand that the criticism is valid.

The problems we face are global in nature and the solutions to those problems will come from coalitions formed world wide.

[Neecy]

172. how patronizing

I understand quite well, because I 'bother' to understand the critcism, both through education and travel.

Because I do 'bother', I had this sentence in my post: "I realize that the point many of these speakers had was to draw historical parallels to the current US actions in Iraq." I realize this, but I wonder how many others were able to connect the Phillipino speakers with some historical context? Or were the red scarves and shrieking a little confusing to many viewers? There was no education involved, just incoherent ranting and raving, along with a healthy dose of constant hostility to the United States and pleas of amnesty for a cop killer. I didn't find it necessarily illuminating, but then, I didn't need to since I've 'bothered' to dig deeper than slogans when it comes to serious criticism of US foreign policy in the last century.

The problems are indeed global, but the most pressing problem must be solved by the American people. We either fall to this dictatorship another four years or we organize and defeat it. Glorifying cop killers seems an odd way to go about this.

[Ardee]

181. sorry you feel patronised

but it doesnt seem to stop you from BEING patronising now does it? as in:
"If we're going to truly build a movement, it needs to have a laser focus on THE WAR, not on Cuba, or Nicaragua, or the Phillipines, or anti-Zionism."

It would seem that you patronise both the voting public by underestimating their concerns or their intelligence in understanding how american actions overseas impact us at home as well as patronising, by ignoring, those directly impacted by our avaricious corporations acting through american military force.

If we fail to coalition build then we are isolated and alone, where is our power then?

[Neecy]

190. I'm being realistic - are you?

The issues I'm hearing about involve the war, the economy, and Ashcroft. I have yet to hear a massive public outcry about Mumia, American colonialism in the Phillipines, or Cuba. Totally off the radar screen for the average American voter.

I hardly think that's patronising. I think it's simply fact.

[Ardee]

252. That is a shame

That you have heard no outcry against american imperialism, or against our ridiculous policies vis-a-vis Cuba seems to me to be either rather curious or leads me to believe that you self censor, like most folks turn off their hearing when a commercial comes on perhaps you turn off yours when an issue with which you have no empathy is discussed.

That many in America may be unfamiliar with the facts of our foreign policies, that many americans may be ignorant of the peculiar and possibly illegal actions of the police and the prosecutors in the Mumia case, as well as in the cases of many, many poor and minority folks tried and convicted after manufactured evidence or extorted confessions were used is a truism. But that does not make it unworthy of speaking to, in fact, it is part and parcel of that which concerned and active folks are trying to change here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I see , again and again, from centrists like you( and that term is not meant as epithet), the desire to carefully censor the political message , to pick and choose which issues we engage our fellow americans on, as if they were children unable to handle the truth. I believe that those who spoke "off topic" were, in reality on message.

The mess we are in now, the powerlessness of the democrats, the losses in congress all stem, in my opinion, from the exact same philosophy that you proffer here. It is long past time to hold ones tongue, it is long past time that the Bush administration be challenged ,constantly ,vociferously and passionately. It is long past time to stop sweeping injustice under the rug. I refuse to accept your definition of my fellow americans as heartless and stupid.

[Neecy]

258. gee, where to start?

I have absolutely no reason to 'self-censor'. While you may live in a bubble, I live in the real world and there's simply no mass movement to 'free Mumia' or to rehash events in the Phillipines that occurred 100 years ago. And you have no damn right to judge my empathy.

In the real world I live in, I know three families who have sons in Iraq. Do you think they give a shit right now about Mumia? About Coca-Cola in Nicaragua? About deconstructing American foreign policy in Cuba? They can barely friggin' sleep at night.

I never said that 'your' fellow Americans are heartless and stupid. They're too busy working longer hours because of layoffs in their companies, they're worried about health care, about the constant message of fear that comes out of this administration, about tuition costs....you know, what real people face. Every day. And I can tell you that 'your' fellow Americans, far from having their hearts opened at yesterday's display, were more likely offended by the nonstop degrading of their country.

The 'philosophy that I proffer' is one of challenge to the Bush administration. I just don't use radical-socialist methods to do so.

[maha]

189. How to Re-Select Bush

Yes, once again ... Those of us old folks who marched against Vietnam can tell you how, time and time again, people supposedly on "our side" diluted our message and blunted the effectiveness of the antiwar movement with a lot of peripheral messages that weren't of interest to many of us.

And, sad to say, for this reason the anti-Vietnam war movement was the best advertising Richard Nixon had. It went a long way to getting him re-elected in 1972,

Merits or non-merits of the Mumia issue aside, please consider this: most of the people who went to DC today did not go there on behalf of Mumia, but on behalf of getting the U.S. out of Iraq.

When small factions hijack a major protest like that for "off message" messages, they are using the other people assembled in a dishonest way -- a lot of people there may not have wished to be associated with the Mumia cause. And, the "off" messages dilute the Iraq message and thereby blunt the effectiveness of the protest. A damn shame.

Further, you can bet Karl Rove had operatives in that crowd getting pictures of the best "lefty" stuff they could get so that they can smear the whole anti-Iraq-war movement in the minds of middle America. That's an old Nixon trick.

Do you WANT to give Bush four more years in the White House?

All I can add is, if you don't understand what I'm saying, PLEASE DO NOT COME TO NYC NEXT YEAR FOR THE GOP CONVENTION. A streetful of "free mumia" signs will get Bush four more years for sure.

[Ardee]

256. selective memories

I believe that the protests against that war, which drew me like a magnet after my return from Nam, were largely responsible for our withdrwal from that war. Further I believe that ,no matter who spoke at those ralies, no matter what actions were taken during those protests, Nixon and his loyal media would have painted a bleak picture of them, would have distorted the impact of them, just as some now distort the impact of the current demonstrations.

Here a hint for you madam, bold face type does not a truth make.Your opinions are exactly that, as are mine, or anyone elses here or anywhere. You believe that a handful of signage will swing the next election, I believe that that opinion is best undefined as I cannot do so politely.

What I will deal with is this cowardice I see everyhere among democrats. If we were to judge our society by the opposition put forth by the democrats one might conclude that we live in a perfect place and at a perfect time. The only opposition I see to Bush is coming from those you castigate as "off message". It might have escaped your notice, as you probably couldnt be bothered to march yourself, imagine consorting with the riff-raff,but there was plenty of stuff about Iraq, plenty of stuff about domestic policies as well, you know, all that stuff that democrats are strangely and conspicuously silent about.

I do not care for the "safe" course of action, in the mid term elections that course took the party onto the reef.In the coming election the democrats, should they continue to take the safe and silent course , will once again fall short, and it is they and not a few damn signs, that will ultimately be responsible for another four years of Bush.

[bearfartinthewoods]

318. it's also probable that rove had people in the crowd

<b>displaying</b> "the best "lefty" stuff they could get so that they can smear the whole anti-Iraq-war movement in the minds of middle America."

That's also an old Nixon trick.

but hey...if people don't want to hear anything from those of us who have been through this before and learned from it, what are we to do?

hang with answer....they have been soooo successful, haven't they?

[markses]

3. I partly agree

Well, actually, I only agree about the screaming. The microphones were sufficient.

At the end of the day, if you don't like it, go ahead and organize your own march. Simple as that. These folks put in the effort and the man-hours and the funds, they get the stage. Don't like it, don't go. Or go to a different event.

At the end of the day, it is a coalition. COALITION. That means many interests under one umbrella. For ANSWER, that means a bunch of different interests get to speak. Don't like it? Don't go.

Does it hurt YOUR version of how the thing should go down? Well, maybe it does. So what. You don't get to say what they can do with their time. Don't like it? Tough.

Now, as for a reasonable dialogue, I agree. If you think you can get a centrist march together that is clearly focused and addresses only those issues you want addressed, I fully urge you to work toward that goal. I think you can do it. Sitting home and sniping at what others do, however, is not particularly productive for anyone. But you are, of course, fully entitled to do so. If I don't like it after this comment, I won't read the thread.

[RebelOne]

6. I partially agree with you

but at least the message is going out to the American public about the injustice and illegality of this war.

[Paschall]

20. Thank you, markses

Good comments.

I wonder if some of these whiners have ever done any political activism before. COALITION is the word.

[laura888]

141. bingo - we have a winner!!!!

your comments were right on... I went to the march, and altho it was loaded up with issues, that was alright with me.

When we march down toward the capitol building, with the one problem we all agree on - IRAQ - we are showing our POWER. And we did just that. So I'd say the thing was a giant kick-ass success!

If other organizers can get 1000+ people together - great.

[NJCher]

4. do you seriously think middle America was watching this?

No way.

What they'll see are a few seconds of clips on the evening network news of people marching in the streets (if that). End of story.

The type of people who will be watching (on the C-
Span rerun, for example) are people who probably know about the evils of America's foreign policy.


Cher

[matcom]

5. middle amerikka doesn't watch CSPAN

doubt they even know of its existence

[pocoloco]

7. Took the words right outta my mouth!

[IndianaGreen]

9. Middle America is interested in hearing about Kobe or Scott Peterson

Middle America finds it inconvenient that the workers at some grocery chains are picketing to protect their medical benefits from being gutted by the corporations. How dare they interfere with their shopping?

[aquart]

24. Maybe you want to contain your contempt for your countrymen?

Hard to win people over when you're looking down from such a tall ivory tower.

[IndianaGreen]

29. When the Ken State peace marchers were shot by the Ohio National Guard

The "middle America" that you speak of, cheered the guardsmen and blamed the kids for getting shot.

I have no illusions left about this country. We are no different than the Germans of 1933-34.

[drdon326]

I have no doubt, Indy

that it was perfect for you.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. I Doubt "Middle America"

cheered the carnage at Kent State.... Most folks saw it as a tragedy....... The kids being shot at were about the same age as most of the Guardsmen....

[IndianaGreen]

58. 58-percent of Americans blamed the students

Within a week of the shooting, a Newsweek poll indicated that 58 percent of Americans blamed students for the deaths at Kent State. Only 11 percent blamed the National Guard, which was ordered to Kent State by Governor James A. Rhodes ''to eradicate the communist element'' on campus.

Nixon was elected in 1968, saying he had a secret plan to end the war. In truth, he had no clue.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/050300-103.htm

I don't need a link to tell me what I knew to be true at the time. The public at large sided with the draft dodgers in the Ohio National Guard that fired on the students.

[burrowowl]

63. I was in France

when the KS students were shot.
It was after May 68 when deGaulle was ousted for even thinking about sending tanks to Paris to quell the riots and demostrations.
I was terribly shocked. I didn't believe it at first, then one teacher showed me a newspaper. They said how can the government do this?
Let's say that being part Mexican and having lived in various places in Latin American, I knew how they could do this.

[Donna Zen]

126. I was there

....and heard the good town's people say: "They should have shot more of them." I saw a WWII veteran run after a young woman who crying and he punched her. I had to beg an older woman who lived near me for a ride home because I couldn't get to my car. She made me lay on the floor in the back. When I arrived home, many of my neighbors were sitting on their porches with guns trained on the houses of students.

The news was all about how "we brought it on ourselves." Kinda like rape.

People had been sold the myth that the hippies were out to destroy America. If they knew in their hearts that killing middle class kids on an American middle class campus was wrong, they still could not give up the myth.

[bearfartinthewoods]

171. you left out the why part

middle America was opposed to the students and the anti war movement because of the connection to the communists and socialists and marxist.

i spent years with and within the movement. it's the same story now.
the anti-war movement lost control of the movement to the leftists and middle America noticed.

[maha]

211. Yep. Sounds like you're right. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

217. Are you sure that you weren't with the Young Americans for Freedom?

Because that's what the YAF used to call those of us that opposed the war.

[bearfartinthewoods]

262. yes, i'm quite sure

i wasn't yaf. i also wasn't a communist, socialist or marxist.

nor were many of the people with whom i worked. but many of the 'spokespeople', the most visible and vocal were and the label tainted the movement for a long time.

[diamond14]

310. some dead students were not even protestors...they were going

to their classes when the National Guard killed them...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

147. I was a college student at the time of Kent State

and IG is absolutely right about the reaction to the shootings.

A lot of people were horrified, of course, but a lot of people also thought that the students "got what they deserved," even though some of them weren't even demonstrating but just hit by stray bullets.

The youth culture of the late 1960s-early 1970s appalled a lot of middle American types, and the hatred for and stereotyping of anti-war protestors was really disturbing.

[Ardee]

155. Thank you Indie

I feel less alone now......Kent State was the turning point in my political awareness, it still hurts and anger me to this day.

[LiviaOlivia]

11. I watch C-SPAN. I am "Middle America"

I watch C-SPAN and my family and many friends watch C-SPAN.

[Bucky]

17. Part of the problem

Part of the problem with the anti war movement--the reason it's not getting any traction with the public even though a majority of the public now thinks the war was a bad idea--is that people who are the leading voices opposing the wars do stupid shit like spell American as "Amerikka".

Well, at least you didn't use 3 Ks.

Most people love their country and want to support the ideals that it represents. If you attack the country and imply that America is an inherently fascist country, you repel the people I would assume you want to win over to our anti-war side.

This makes the president's side seem all the more attractive to any person who might happen across your essentially hateful message. Even though the president doesn't actually practice the ideals of America, he at least pays lip service to them. Little wonder the responsible left keeps losing elections: the radical left keeps making us look stupid.

[IndianaGreen]

22. America is an inherently RACIST country

and always has been a racist country, from domestic policies to our foreign policy, we have always favored the interests of people that looked more like white Europeans.

Just look at the disparate treatment given to Jessica Lynch compared to the one given to the other members of her unit that were less "white" than her.

[Bucky]

45. Thank you for illustrating my point. MLK was from America, too

If you choose to look at the world through a very narrow lens, you're not going to have much perspective. How can the country that fathered Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, Bill Moyers, Bill Clinton, Bobby Kennedy, Shirley Chisolm, William Jennings Bryan, Al Smith, WEB DuBois, and Barbra Steisand possibly be an "inherently" racist society. Unless, of course, you believe along with some radical conservatives that liberals aren't "real" Americans.

Get some perspective, young man.

[noiretextatique]

MLK was assasinated in racist america, also

and in case you've forgetten, some of his ancestors were slaves. :wtf: does people being "born" here have to do with whether or not this country is inherently racist? i think it's YOU who needs some perspective, bucky,

[shanti]

52. excuse me, but

the u.s. IS a racist country...the problem is that middle amerikkka (ha) thinks they are NOT racist and are not about hearing it. mlkjr knew this too, he just went about it in a different way.

ever hear of white privilege?

[Zhade]

79. Yeah - I mean, election theft nevers happens with the GOP, right?

NT!

[Ardee]

159. It is long past time to wake up

The ideals of America include lynching blacks from trees, incarcerating the poor because they have no money for attorneys not because they are guilty,robbing the working class of health care, dignity and, often, their pensions.It includes the murder of countless third world citisens either through military intervention or unsafe factories. American ideals include inequitable distribution of wealth and power.

Unles and until a majority of americans are forced to face the fact of this textbook image that you maintain , whether through blindness
or a fear of alienation, there will be more of the same, there will be no cvhange. we hear this stuff repeatedly here at DU and from our elected representatives and I for one am sick of it.The popularity of Goerge W Bush stems from the cowardice of the democratic party and little else. In the absence of an opposition to his agendas and policies the american people are forced to believe him. Even without any balls from our opposition party ( thats an unfunny joke) more and more people are "getting it" every day.Imagine if there had been a concerted effort all along to expose the lies of Bush and company?

It is simple cowardice to assume that the majority of americans will reject the truth, it stems from the fear of loudmouths like Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Reilly, and not from any axiomatic truths about the average american being a war mongering supporter of inequality .

[maggrwaggr]

227. "the radical left keeps making us look stupid" I agree!!

Did you see some of those pictures from san Francisco?

How is anybody supposed to take that shit seriously?

They make a joke out of the protest. It's sick and it's sad.

[bearfartinthewoods]

319. link? eom

[diamond14]

311. 'Dissent is the HIGHEST form of Patriotism'...(Thomas Jefferson)

.

[Lars39]

19. For the folks not plugged into the internet, c-span & the other political

shows are the only way they have to try to keep up, so showing the protests on c-span isn't a totally lost cause. :shrug:

[John_H]

121. Yes they do. In fact, my sense of C-SPAN callers is that they are

mostly "middle americans."

[Selwynn]

167. I am middle America

and I watch C-span.

[E_Zapata]

8. And therein lies the problem with International Answer!

I caught their drift months and months ago.

They are expressly interested in anti-americanism (with good reason) BUT to use the fury of actual americans is disingenuous.

We are being used by them.

But, worse, we are allowing them to dictate our platform. And that's OUR FAULT.

It was ANSWER who got the ball rolling, and all these great organizations of ours just sort of follow ANSWER's beat. Not cool.

The american leftist public is so friggin disorganized and lacks cohesion and momentum on its own. And that's why we find ourselves in the mess we are in.

And on here.....we just bitch and moan and write letters (and that's all great)......but it doesn't get the job done.

This protest should have taken place at the end of the summer when the bush cards first started to fall (where are the WMDs? was in all the mainstream papers and news outlets). And we let that opportunity vanquish. And then ANSWER comes around......plans this.......and it's the only game in town.

So, we have to live with it. OR get organized. When we will become a cohesive force, I wonder? There are so many children who are relying on us......and we are failing them.

So, I don't berate ANSWER......they are taking care of their agenda, and they intuitively and brilliantly figured out how to tap some pretty fierce energy among the american populace.

I know I don't want to get involved with a strictly anti-american movement. I am pro-american.....I want to SAVE this country and improve it.....which would involve taking care of the ANSWER agenda, but not in their terms.

And frankly, ANSWER gives us a bad name...just corroborates what the conservatives say about us. Totally uncool.

[goobergunch]

12. Excellent post. (n/t)

[Neecy]

14. I hear you

So, we have to live with it. OR get organized. When we will become a cohesive force, I wonder? There are so many children who are relying on us......and we are failing them.

Right now, the best we seem to be able to accomplish is individual activism. On November 8th, I'm signed up to canvass in a "Door to Door, One Year Before" program with my state Democratic party to register more Democrats well in advance of the election.

Now, I'm wondering - why? To elect more Democrats who will vote for more billions of dollars to Halliburton, or will give * sanction for another imperialistic attack on Syria/Iran?

It's tough. I'm a lifelong Democrat who feels totally helpless within my own party. Perhaps an angry, mass March on congress on behalf of registered Democrats is the only answer.

[Lars39]

23. OK, I just found out something new. ANSWER is an international outfit?

This is NOT the organization we need to have representing us. It comes off as being too disorganized and off-topic. What comes to mind is a marital spat, where one of the couple drags up everything instead of discussing the topic at hand. Very counter-productive.

[Ardee]

160. disorganised huh?

They seem to be the only group organising at all...They were responsible for the organising that led to the anti war protests prior to the invasion of Iraq you know. Where the hell are these more civilised or more politically correct groups and what are they doing, hiding under their beds with the democrats?

It was ANSWER that showed just how many were against the invasion of Iraq after all if only by providing the means to demonstrate.I would gladly have marched under the auspices of any other group providing the permits and the speakers but there werent any.

ANSWER is a coalition of socialist groups, some more than a bit esoteric to be sure but they are the ones doing something while all to many here are simply complaining and bad mouthing their efforts.........

[knight_of_the_star]

169. They also are pretty poor in a strategic sense

I just got back from the march in San Diego and we had about 300 people there. Not too bad of a showing, but we could have broken 10-15k if most of the marchers in this part of the country hadn't been shipped off by ANSWER to march in Frisco. It MAY be impressive to march hundreds of thousands in one spot, but the mainstream perception of Frisco is such that it wouldn't matter if we had 3 million marching there, it would still be thought of as because, "they're a bunch of liberal wackos anyway." We have to organize something INDEPENDENT from ANSWER that appeals to mainstream America, an organization that doesn't alienate middle America the way that ANSWER does. That and their timing could have been SOOOO much better than it was! As was already posted, if htis was done in August when all the shit was hitting the fan, we could have gaiend HUGE support! ANSWER just strikes me as a group that wants to make a HUGE splash and doesn't care how or what that splash does for this country. They know how to do it, but they don't seem to have down the art of strategic planning. If we had say 25-30k people in LA, Sacremento, SF, and SD today instead of JUST 50-100k in SF, that would have had MUCH more impact because it was more widespread. The rally I was at was organized by United or Peace and Freedom (oddly enough ANSWER doesn't have a link to them. I wonder why :eyes:), the ENTIRE focus of our rally and march was that Bush lied, people died, and that the war in Iraq is wrong. Nothing else. And it DID play over pretty well. When I was watching ANSWER's speeches on C-SPAN this morning, the speeches WERE good, but they were coming from groups that are TOO far left of center for the average American to accept. We have to organize INDEPENDENT of ANSWER so that we can REALLY appeal to the people, we have to organize this like a WAR, not like just a few loud screams! We are at WAR with the Bushies, and we have to act like it, not like we want to say EVERYTHING and get NONE of it done!!!

[La_Serpiente]

10. These guys

are more on par with communists, socialists, and possibly anarchists (I'm not sure).

Anyhow, the group NION is probably more inline with the moderate anti-war crowd.

[EastofEdon]

13. would the people who complain about

these marches, organise something they thought more fitting? Well they haven't so far.

edit to add: Mind you, there have been an estimated 20.000 deaths in Iraq since the pre-war demonstrations. What's keeping you folks from organising?

[laura888]

144. absolutely - anyone complaining should step up to the plate! n/t

n/t

[Don_G]

15. I Partially Agree

The main focus is to get different groups to agree on achieving a common goal with a central message like the Rethuglican Party did with Nixon, Regan and both King Shrubs.

Why don't we focus on that inital goal and let the different groups fight for their specific agendas after elections in the Senate and Congress like they do in the UK and every other democratic nation in the world?

[kentuck]

18. A positive or negative ?

I think it shows the diversity of the left.

[Paschall]

21. Are you really bent out of shape about the red headbands?

Sheesh. In the sixties it was Afros. I guess you maybe got over that. So there's hope, huh?

[ShaneGR]

25. Here's the problem....

We are AGAINST the war in Afghanistan. And now to present our case as to why, we have a 20 year old girl from the phillipines screaming about US aggression 40 years ago. Oh yeah, and she's wearing a red head band.

[mandyky]

26. Glad to hear I was not the only one shaking my head

about some of the rally -

1 - Why yell and scream when you have microphones?

2 - Mumia is hated by police all over the land - his name should be mentioned sparsely, if at all.

3 - I would not mind them mentioning websites and coalition marches upcoming between groups, but the message at peace protests should be messages of peace, for the most part.

4 - In case anyone from middle America IS listening, it would be best to keep the Iraq invasion the main point. Total world peace is something we cannot get to from where we are. As much as I was against the invasion of Iraq, I feel we are stuck now in Iraq, unless we want them to have a civil war. I think donors would be more generous once we oust shrub.

[pschoeb]

27. The rally is just what it said, but you weren't involved enough, to read

to go or help organize so why complain? you can certainly disagree with what it was organized around, but trying to say it did what it did not say, is quite false.

your main statement at the end is

"So, my main problem is that they advertised one kind of event, and provided another."

This is totally false, you were just too unmotivated to read more than a sentence or listen to some soundbite on TV or something, couldn't be bothered to go to some "special interest" internet site to read what the march was organized around.

If you read the Call to Action it's pretty clear, but some people only look for the quick one sentence summation of what an event is supposed to be. Here is the Call to Action in full. Notice how it talks about the people of the world uniting against US militarism, notice the section talking about fighting against US "preemptive war" strategy, and talking about all the other countries this could effect and the need too include them.

http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o25/index.html

CALL TO ACTION:
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 25
International March on Washington DC

Gather at 11 am at the Washington Monument

MASS MARCH ON WASHINGTON TO SAY:
Bring the troops home now
End the occupation of Iraq
Money for jobs, education & healthcare - Not war

The people in Iraq want the U.S. occupation to end. The U.S. soldiers in Iraq want to come home. On Saturday, October 25, tens of thousands of people in the U.S., joined by delegations from countries around the world, will go back into the streets to demand End the Occupation, Bring the Troops Home Now! Under the banner, "The World Unites Against U.S. Militarism," the demonstration, marching from the Justice Department to the White House to the Pentagon, will also demand an end to the looting and destruction of social programs by the Bush Administration.

The Bush Administration lied to the people, to the Congress, and to the United Nations as it raced to wage war against Iraq. The Bush administration is now carrying out a cover up of its lies and deceptions.

Every day, people are dying as a consequence of this illegal occupation. Every day human misery expands in the drive for world Empire and corporate globalization. Every day, vital social programs that serve and protect working people in the U.S. are being destroyed as the Bush administration cynically manipulates the slogan of the "war on terrorism" to carry out the social transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top. It has served as a public relations ploy for their Robin-Hood-in-reverse politics. Stopping Bush's war abroad and his war at home is a matter of life and death. None of us has the luxury of waiting. The time to act is now.

Tens of thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of U.S. GIs have been killed and maimed. As the anger of the Iraqi people will inevitably grow, the body count on both sides will sharply increase.

As the anti-war movement predicted, the Iraqi people view U.S. forces as colonial occupiers, not liberators. U.S. troops, frightened by the hostile environment and encouraged by the racist climate created by the military brass, are killing and being killed in a war that serves only the interests of U.S. oil monopolies and corporate elites - George W. Bush's real constituents. U.S. soldiers and their families are now realizing that high government officials, mostly millionaires who shuttle between corporate boardrooms and government posts, are using U.S. troops as a private security detachment for Corporate America's plunder of Iraq's oil riches.

The October 25 International March on Washington will include delegations invited from countries around the world whose banners will represent resistance to the threat posed by the Bush Administration's hyper-aggressive "preemptive war" strategy. The Bush Administration has also just won approval from Congress to proceed with the creation of a new generation of tactical nuclear weapons explicitly designed to be used in the Third World in coming conflicts. The march will demand an immediate end to this new nuclear arms race.

As we continue the movement in opposition to the occupation of Iraq, we must also oppose the daily threats against the people of Palestine, Afghanistan, Iran, Korea, Cuba, the Philippines, Colombia, Liberia, Zimbabwe, and all others that are targets of the Bush administration.

The demonstration will be followed on October 26 by an assembly with international delegates from the global anti-war movement to assess and strategize challenging the Bush Administration's war drive and the component assault on civil rights and civil liberties taking place in many countries under the cloak of "national security" laws, including the Patriot Act in the U.S.

THE WAR AT HOME

The Bush administration will spend $2.7 trillion in a vast expansion of the U.S. military-industrial apparatus, while eliminating or severely cutting taxes for Corporate America and the one percent of the richest part of the United States population to the tune of $1 trillion. The administration is pursuing a calculated strategy to create a fiscal crisis inside the United States so that lawmakers will be compelled to cut or eliminate social programs for which there will no longer be funds.

Pentagon officials now admit that they intend for the U.S. to maintain at least 150,000 troops in Iraq for the "foreseeable future," while the cost of the U.S. war in and occupation of Iraq is nearly $4 billion a month, a "burn rate" that will also continue.

The government of the richest country in human history is spending more for war than any government in human history and has its troops stationed in more than 750 military installations and bases located in more than 130 countries all over the world. This is the means by which the Bush administration, the Pentagon and Corporate America are advancing the goal of Empire.

The rapid expansion of U.S. militarism under the Bush administration is not only a threat to the people of the world, it is a calculated assault on the standard of living and rights of working people. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz have a plan to destroy every social reform that has been achieved since the 1930s. What are they seeking to destroy or privatize? Social security, medicare, medicaid, public education, affirmative action, civil rights, women's rights, reproductive health, l/g/b/t rights, environmental protections, and any other programs or social rights that are perceived as either a restriction on corporate power and profits or are a focus of attack by the ultra-right's political program. Under the Bush Administration, the war at home has also meant a rise in attacks against communities of color. Police brutality against the African American and Latino communities in particular have escalated, from New York City to Ohio and across the country.

The October 25-26 weekend is also the second anniversary of the signing of the so-called Patriot Act authorizing political arrests, indefinite detentions and domestic spying. As the Bush administration - which only came to power due to massive racist disenfranchisement and voting fraud -- violates international law it has been systematically engaged in a campaign of division and repression in the United States including a wholesale assault on the Bill of Rights, institutionalization of racial profiling, and aggregation of near dictatorial powers to the Executive branch. The demonstration will be a political challenge to the attack on civil rights and civil liberties and the expansion of the system of repression in the U.S. and in countries around the world which have also adopted new repressive National Security laws.

The people of the world went into the streets unparalleled global mobilizations before the war started. On October 25, we will go into the streets again. The anti-war, civil rights and social justice movement, whose ranks are being joined in ever increasing numbers by the family members of military personnel and U.S. veterans, can create the effective political force that will end the occupation of Iraq and bring the troops home immediately. It was only the people's movement that ended the invasion and occupation of Vietnam and it will be the global people's anti-war movement that will help end the U.S. occupation of Iraq.


***************

The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition was formed in the days after September 11 by progressive organizations and people in the United States who recognized the need to take immediate action in response to the Bush administration's headlong rush to war and the racist attacks against the Arab and Muslim communities in the U.S. The Coalition organized the first national demonstration against war and racism following September 11 on September 29, 2001, which brought 25,000 people into the streets of Washington DC and 15,000 in San Francisco. The Coalition has worked to build an anti-racist, peace and social justice movement, including mass mobilizations on April 20, 2002 (in support of justice for Palestine) and October 26, 2002 (the first demonstration in opposition to the war drive against Iraq), and the first global day of action against the war in Iraq, January 18, 2003, when millions of people around the world took part in simultaneous demonstrations, including a half a million people in Washington DC. The Coalition coinued to organize mass demonstrations in February and March and began the campaign against U.S. occupation of Iraq in April, 2003.

Its national steering committee represents major national organizations that have campaigned against U.S. militarism and intervention in Latin America, the Caribbean, the Middle East and Asia, and organizations that work towards social and economic justice and civil rights for people inside the United States.

[Lars39]

48. So a potential viewer of the rally was supposed to have read up, or

visited the special interest sites to know what was going on at the rally? I'm running this thru my "elderly Dad" filter, and it just doesn't wash. If a viewing isn't self-explanatory to the unaware or unread, it isn't going to make sense to them.

[pschoeb]

74. Huh? your post makes no sense

sgr2 was complaining that the rally didn't reflect what ANSWER supposedly said the rally was about before hand, I'm saying it did. My post had to do with supporting the rally by attending. SGR2 said he was thinking of attending but was glad he did not, he said that ANSWER falsely represented what the rally was about. I'm saying he is wrong and ANSWER advertised the rally to be just what it was.

If you were just viewing the whole rally, I think it larglely covered all the themes in the Call to Action. Therefore anyone watching the rally caught the diverse themes of the rally, and wouldn't need to go to the ANSWER site to find out that was what the rally was organized around(but I was talking about information available before the rally began on what the rally was about). One could argue that all(or even most)of the themes won't resonate with Middle America, but obviously even SGR2 misconstrued understanding(one he thought would resonate more with middle America) of the rally wasn't enough to get even him of his ass and to the rally. It seems middle America might only be woken up when it directly and devastatingly concretely effects their own life, and often by that time it is much too late. ANSWER is going for an international response, one can argue against that approach or organize a different approach, but such an approach would by definition be different than targeting middle America.

My note on "special interest" sites was sarcasm, all internet sites except search engines and media portals are "special interest". I was joking that it would have taken sg2 five minute to have found out the organizing themes of the rally before the rally, by going to the site of the rally sponsors and organizers.

Patrick Schoeb

[Lars39]

80. I am looking at this thru the eyes of the people I know that watch c-span,

but aren't plugged in to the internet. A person shouldn't have to be well read on the subject; in fact if the point of the rally was to educate, it got pretty confusing for a while.

[pschoeb]

123. Possibly it could be confusing

And that could be a valid criticism of the actual event. But often explaining diverse perspectives on an event like the Iraq Occupation and what it means and the root causes can be complex. Should the complexities of events never be talked about in public so as to not possibly confuse people? if someone actually watched the whole rally on C-Span(really long), could they actually say they don't have enough time to try to do some more research if they were confused.

To take a different example, Should the Democratic Party not have different politicians with differnt views, should they all be in lock step to one theme? Should they never have an event where they discuss in public their different perspectives, and what they think are different main problems?

Interestingly enough if ANSWER kept to keeping it really simple and slogan like, and consistenatly appealed to "middle America themes"(whatever that is, I guess they could use some kinda consumer advertising techniques, "keep it simple and sexy"),without ever expanding or informing on wider perspectives, there would get the opposite complaint. That these leftist groups were trying to subvert middle America into supporting their agenda, by not informing them of their whole background.

Patrick Schoeb

[burrowowl]

67. Thank you!

n/t

[maha]

192. Now I'm glad I didn't go.

ANSWER always did make me twitchy, but I considered going because United for Peace and Justice was involved too. UPJ did a great job with the New York City protests in February and March.

It sounds like we need not to have any more mass protests organized by ANSWER.

[pschoeb]

259. It was a coalition rally

And I think it was a good idea for this rally. Other protests might be only United for Peace and Justice(UFPJ) or only ANSWER.

I certainly have more in common with UFPJ, like their organization better, and am involved with them. But for this national rally I think it was good to include all groups and get as big a showing as possible(besides it hard to exclude people who want to come). If UFPJ had said No ANSWER people, they would have had their own rally and march, and then the media would have been happy to broadcast segments nonstop, about the growing divide and the dissolution of the antiwar groups and the bitter infighting and lack of unity. Also I think Americans need to learn coalition building and group interactions. Constructive criticism is good, but sectarian bickering sucks.

I prefer UFPJ for structural reasons, they have an elected steering committees as well as national assemblies, working groups, and try to be representational, not only is the goal good, the structure should enliven democratic participation. I beleive UFPJ had priority in planning this rally and all their speakers went first.

Mostly I have seen complaints by people who couldn't be bothered to work with any of the groups or even attend(armchair activists suck, much like armchair generals and back seat drivers). I could see if you were hesitant about the belief that the Iraq Occupation is wrong, or our troops should be sent home, but if not, why not work with UFPJ?

I see on this board many times people telling me that regardless who gets the Dem nomination, I need to hold my nose and vote Dem. What's different with this? ANSWER hardly controls the antiwar movement, and it's only a temporary coalition for a rally, not the Presidential election. But many who say they are avidly against Occupation, say this is a stumbling block to their attendance.

Patrick Schoeb

[Upfront]

28. I hope

the average voter was watching football today. If they saw this show it will cost us votes. It was unreal.

[ShaneGR]

30. Yeah, the freepers are celebrating

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1007938/posts

They're calling for CSPAN to replay it as many times as possible.

[Samaka 3ajiba]

230. Good Coverage on al-Jazeera

Perhaps the march was wasted on "Middle America", but I don't think it was a completely lost cause. I watched a lot of coverage of the march on al-Jazeera, and I think it conveys the message to the Middle East that not all Americans are war mongering drones and that this administration is actually acting without the blessing of most of Middle America. If the coverage was the same on other foreign channels, it multiplies the effect of the message, letting the people of other nations know that they're not the only ones protesting.

I think some posters here need to manage their expectations. As large as the protests were prior to the war, they didn't stop Bush & Co. from invading Iraq. This protest will probably not lead to the troops coming home, or "Middle America" being mobilized. That said, I think these marches do have positive impact on solidarity between the people, which will eventually overshadow the insults and strained diplomatic relations between governments.

Frankly, given the record of those dems who voted for the war, and their virtual castration, I don't feel most candidates from either party are serving our interests as a people, or the interests of mankind. I'm not going to bitch and moan about ANSWER. Our politicians regardless of their stripes, haven't put up half the effort. I could give a shit about winning elections or winning over the hearts of Middle America by whispering sweet jingoistic nothings to comfort them. At this point, I can sleep peacefully at night knowing I've voiced my dissent which is all I am pretty much empowered to do. Even my vote hardly means anything at all anymore.

[arcane1]

286. as if I'm worried about what dumbasses who post like this think:

"Maybe they could tape a picture of Rachel Corrie on the front bumper, appearing to be just about to slide under the wheels?"


:eyes:

[ShaneGR]

323. Who said that?

Just wondering.

[laura888]

146. My sad suspicion is that it was the fault of media coverage...

... I was at the rally and the event, and found it powerful and moving. Many elderly people, veterans against the war, family members of 9/11 and others made their presence known.

I felt the power of the people's outrage. If you did not get this from watching TV, I strongly suspect it was a problem with coverage.

[bearfartinthewoods]

320. whoaa....it's pretty hard to blame the media

when you have cspan airing all the speeches from beginning to end.
we are lucky the speeches didn't get coverage by the 24/7's

[Kathy in Cambridge]

31. Free Mumia! Free Leonard Pelletier!

And the usual International Answer stuff. I think a lot of today's message was drowned out by their pet causes. I commend them for organizing these events, but in order to attract 'the radical middle' and a wider audience, constantly labeling the US as evil is not a unifying rallying cry.

[ShaneGR]

32. Free the Hurricane!

Oops, he got out. Nevermind.

[Neecy]

37. free Patty Hearst!

*oops* Same mistake.

[ShaneGR]

42. Free OJ!

Oops.

[Melinda]

33. Good fucking grief - who do you think the LEFT are anyway?

This was not a DEMOCRAT event organized by the DNC. Here is ANSWER'S ADVERTISED platform for today's events:

Every day, people are dying as a consequence of this illegal occupation. Every day human misery expands in the drive for world Empire and corporate globalization. Every day, vital social programs that serve and protect working people in the U.S. are being destroyed as the Bush administration cynically manipulates the slogan of the "war on terrorism" to carry out the social transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top. It has served as a public relations ploy for their Robin-Hood-in-reverse politics. Stopping Bush's war abroad and his war at home is a matter of life and death. None of us has the luxury of waiting. The time to act is now.

Tens of thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of U.S. GIs have been killed and maimed. As the anger of the Iraqi people will inevitably grow, the body count on both sides will sharply increase.

As the anti-war movement predicted, the Iraqi people view U.S. forces as colonial occupiers, not liberators. U.S. troops, frightened by the hostile environment and encouraged by the racist climate created by the military brass, are killing and being killed in a war that serves only the interests of U.S. oil monopolies and corporate elites - George W. Bush's real constituents. U.S. soldiers and their families are now realizing that high government officials, mostly millionaires who shuttle between corporate boardrooms and government posts, are using U.S. troops as a private security detachment for Corporate America's plunder of Iraq's oil riches.

The October 25 International March on Washington will include delegations invited from countries around the world whose banners will represent resistance to the threat posed by the Bush Administration's hyper-aggressive "preemptive war" strategy. The Bush Administration has also just won approval from Congress to proceed with the creation of a new generation of tactical nuclear weapons explicitly designed to be used in the Third World in coming conflicts. The march will demand an immediate end to this new nuclear arms race.

As we continue the movement in opposition to the occupation of Iraq, we must also oppose the daily threats against the people of Palestine, Afghanistan, Iran, Korea, Cuba, the Philippines, Colombia, Liberia, Zimbabwe, and all others that are targets of the Bush administration.

http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o25/index.html

THIS is ANSWER:

We join with people all over the world in condemning the horrific killings of thousands of persons in the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Our most heartfelt sympathies and condolences are with those whose loved ones were lost or injured on September 11, 2001. At this moment, we would all like to take time to reflect, to grieve, to extend sympathy and condolences to all. But we believe that we must do more. We must act now.

We are assembling International A.N.S.W.E.R. to call for worldwide rallies against war and racism. On September 29 (2001), there a national march and rally at the White House in Washington DC, as well as marches on the West Coast of the U.S. and around the world. We call on all people of conscience and progressive organizations to take up this call and organize rallies around the world.

Unless we stop President Bush and NATO from carrying out a new, wider war in the Middle East, the number of innocent victims will grow from the thousands to the tens of thousands and possibly more. A new, wider U.S. and NATO war in the Middle East can only lead to an escalating cycle of violence. War is not the answer.

We must also act against racism. Arab American and Muslim people in the United States, in Europe and elsewhere, as well as other communities of color, are facing racist attacks and harassment in their communities, on their jobs and at mosques. Anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism is a poison that should be repudiated.

http://www.internationalanswer.org/call.html

Answer was on the front lines after 9/11; ANSWER has been the organizing force behind ALL major public anti-war events since 9/11 -- ANSWER NEVER advertised one kind of event and then provided another -- they are and continue to be exactly who they are and you'd do well to learn about them and their history.

And you might want to check out the history of Students for a Democratic Society while you are at it.

[Neecy]

34. depends on how you interpret 'the left'

To lump some of the extremism we heard today with the left isn't quite accurate. This is the far left, a radical-socialist movement that doesn't allow for much diversity in thought.

[ShaneGR]

36. doesn't allow for much diversity in thought.

Yup

[Melinda]

39. Please provide examples of said "extremism"

"This is the far left, a radical-socialist movement that doesn't allow for much diversity in thought."

Please provide examples in support, thanks.

[Neecy]

49. be glad to...

Since I've had quite a bit of contact with the far left in San Francisco over the years.

Here's an experiment - try disagreeing with anyone on that stage today about their support of Castro (or any third-world leftish dictatorship), their hatred of Israel, their anti-capitalism, or statements such as "America is an inherently racist society" as though we're all in lockstep with the Klan, and step back and prepare to get blasted. In fact, I daresay you wouldn't be given the chance to even complete a sentence.

[noiretextatique]

59. perhaps you should organize a "moderate" march

i predict it would draw about ten people.

[Neecy]

62. I disagree

There are many moderates who oppose this war, the looting of the economy, the taxpayer-funded war profiteering of the Bush cabal, the far-right agenda that's being rubber-stamped by the Republican Reichstag.

Are moderates more likely to travel hundreds, perhaps thousands, of miles to attend an anti-war rally? No. That's why working within our own communities means more, in the end, then 'free Mumia' rallies.

[noiretextatique]

157. thanks for proving my point

10 people...max.

[Melinda]

61. On THAT stage, Neesy? You can get the same opinions right here.

Is Sharpton pro-Castro, Neesy? Can you cite one individual or organization that was there today that is PRO-CASTRO or do you mean pro-CUBA?

Did you observe hatred of Israel or hatred of Israel policies? Granted, many there are anti-capitalism, but ALL? I know better.

And American institutions ARE inherently racist but that is not the same as saying all Americans are.

Again, today's march was composed of well over 650 different organizations, as well as thousands and thousands of individuals belonging to no organized movement, but who attended because they are opposed to this war. And holding that the views espoused by a 'radical' few equals a collective 'extremist' voice is the same as holding that all republicans are neo-con's.

The one common thread running through today's march is the opposition to the illegal and immoral war in Iraq, and that is the united message that a few here have unfortunately decided to toss to the side.

[Neecy]

72. thank you for proving my point

Oh, of course - being pro-CUBA is an entirely different proposition than being pro-CASTRO...you know, the guy who was praised today for offering free health care and education to all Cubans (just not the vote).

And of course, the racist and genocidal policies of the Israeli government has nothing to do with the Israelis, who elected the government in the first place. We just hate Sharon. Okay.

You're right. Sorry for speaking.

[Forkboy]

76. wow

:crazy:

[Melinda]

82. I'm sorry you are unable to differentiate Neesy.

You see things in Black and White, and I see in colors - big difference.

Given your reasoning, ALL muslims hate ALL Americans since WE ALL elected Bush and put him in power; ergo this war and all its consequences is the direct fault of ALL AMERICANS.

:eyes:

[Neecy]

91. I'm sorry you're unable to understand sarcasm

Which is what my comment regarding Israel was.

And actually, it's because I see things in colors, and not black and white, that I'm not drawn to the far left thought police.

[Melinda]

98. Again, you have provided no evidence of "far left thought police"

just your opinion. How bizarre that the concept of Big Brother (think "newspeak") would be co-opted by a member of DemocraticUnderground and attributed to the left...

I mean, TOTALLY bizarre.

[Neecy]

108. not really

Perhaps my experience with the far left differs from yours. Perhaps the individuals I've known (friends of mine, so my concepts aren't as Orwellian as you might think) are more radical than you are, or the people you know. I've listened. I also know, from my own acquaintences, that to defy some of the cherished platforms of the far left is like heresy.

This isn't to say that I don't share some of their beliefs. I think that our trade policies are criminal, and are creating a permanent underclass in the third world, as well as creating an environmental disaster outside of our borders. I believe we live in a corporatist state. I think, in the end, the only answer is going to come through massive civil disobedience.

But where I don't agree - I've learned to just shut up or get shouted down.

[Ardee]

162. well your contact makes you an expert on the left I guess

I certainly hope you remained disease free from that contact......

[markses]

92. LOL - In a thread complaining about diversity of thought

The others are accused of not allowing diversity of thought?

This thread has become a comedy, where the true petty tyranny of the so-called moderates (there is no "moderate" positions - all positions assert their hegemony with equal ferocity) shines forth in all it's blood-drenched glory.

You're a bunch of sick fuckers.

[Neecy]

100. LOL

You're a bunch of sick fuckers.

So, in your quest for diversity of thought, this is what it comes down to?

[markses]

114. You got it

Be as diverse as you want. It's still fucking sickening.

The difference is that I don't pretend to equanimity while practicing violence. You do. You twist.

[Neecy]

117. practicing violence?

Now that's a novel concept, as is the 'you twist'.

To claim that I 'practice' violence is nothing more than a ridiculous smear.

[IndianaGreen]

38. ANSWER is only one voice. Here is another socialist point of view.

Hands off Iraq! Withdraw all US forces from the Middle East now! Build an antiwar movement based on the international working class!
Statement of the Socialist Equality Party
24 October 2003

The Socialist Equality Party calls on workers and young people to oppose the US occupation of Iraq and demand the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of all American military forces from the Middle East and Central Asia.

We oppose the substitution of indirect colonialism through the United Nations for direct American rule. All foreign forces must be withdrawn from Iraq and the Iraqi people freed to decide their own fate.

The only international involvement in Iraq should be the provision of massive economic and technical aid, financed by reparations paid by the United States and Britain, as well as by countries such as France, Germany, Japan and Russia that supported the preceding 12 years of economic blockade that devastated Iraq’s economy.

The SEP demands an investigation into the background of the decision to go to war, which should include the criminal indictment and prosecution of those government officials in the United States and Britain who plotted aggressive war against the people of Iraq. On the basis of such an investigation, reparations to Iraq should be combined with compensation to US soldiers and their families for the deaths and injuries caused by the decisions of the Bush administration.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/oct2003/iraq-o24.shtml

[Melinda]

40. You are right, of course - thanks IG. :-)

[drdon326]

41. Excuse me...

is this the same wsws that defended slobo??

[ShaneGR]

43. Ding Ding Ding

We have a winner!

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

53. better than liking right-wing sites I suppose

what do you think?

[IndianaGreen]

73. Milosovic has yet to be convicted in court

As a matter of fact, his defense seems to be doing rather well knocking doing some of the allegations that have been lodged against him.

It is ironic that the United States has rejected the Yamashita precedent that is cited by the author of the article below. Under Yamashita, people like Tommy Franks and Wesley Clark would find themselves sharing a cell with Slobo.

OBSERVATIONS ON THE FORTHCOMING MILOSEVIC TRIAL
Professor Anthony D'Amato
Northwestern University School of Law
JURIST Contributing Editor

Milosevic has been indicted for murder, deportation, and persecution. Whether or not he eventually seeks legal representation, the critical factor in the tribunal’s eventual decision in his case will depend upon the judges being able to write a persuasive opinion finding him guilty. The opinion has to persuade outside international lawyers first of all, and then through them the world media. It has to make a moral case against Milosevic, demonstrating that the undoubted commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity that took place in former Yugoslavia in the decade of the 1990s was, in some significant part, Milosevic’s moral responsibility.

I emphasize morality here because legal technicality will not be enough in a huge case of this kind. The tribunal certainly cannot say that Milosevic is guilty just because war crimes were committed on his watch, for that would would discourage anyone from ever serving as a head of state. However, the nearest precedent to Milosevic’s case comes fairly close to saying as much, at least on a conventional reading. The Yamashita case, decided by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and affirmed, via a petition for habeas corpus, by the United States Supreme Court, is the leading case of ‘command authority.’ General Tomoyuki Yamashita arrived in the Philippines on 5 October 1944, when it was in chaos. Yamashita ordered Real Admiral Sanji Iwabuchi to evacuate from Manila, a city which in Yamashita’s judgment had no military value. Instead Iwabuchi dug in, and shortly thereafter his troops were cut off by Allied forces and Filipino guerrillas. The Japanese naval forces trapped in Manila went into an orgy of rape, pillage, torture, and murder of the civilian population.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew27.htm

[ShaneGR]

105. OMG, I cannot believe what I am seeing

I know a girl named Ines, her family fled to Germany from Bosnia in the early 90s. Her brother was executed near Sarajevo, along with a couple thousand other young men.

Show her your 'evidence'

[bpilgrim]

111. thats why some choose to look the other way

can't handle the TRUTH yet yall wonder why we are in this mess today.

peace

[IndianaGreen]

115. An anecdote is not evidence

Despite more than 100 witnesses and thousands of hours of phone intercepts and TV recordings, not a scrap of evidence showed Milosevic ordering crimes that left more than 200,000 dead in the Balkans. A picture emerged of him running his regime like a Mafia don, working through a handful of confidants who were given verbal orders that left no paper trail. 'Nobody gives an order to go and murder somebody and puts it in writing,' Goldstone told The Observer . 'It's all done with nods and winks.'

The trial hit more snags with frequent bouts of sickness from 62-year-old Milosevic, suffering from the strain of refusing to use defence lawyers in a court he does not recognise. Colds, flu and high blood pressure have seen two months of trial time lost.

But many share Milosevic's sense of victimhood, insisting he should not be jailed for the crimes of others. Nothing less than direct evidence is likely to change their minds.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/milosevic/story/0,10639,953376,00.html

I actually believe in the Yamashita precedent. I believe that those that exercised command and control are responsible for whatever atrocities their subordinates committed, even when they were committed against orders.

I think that Slobo is guilty. I also think that Bush, Clinton, and Ariel Sharon are guilty of human rights violations and war crimes in Iraq, Kosovo, and Lebanon respectively.

Let's try them all!

[Imajika]

95. Since the wsws....

...is taken seriously by almost no one, what they have to say borders on the irrelevent.

I do not know if the wsws defended Milosvic, but if they had to take a position, a murderous dictator on one side and America on the other - you can almost certainly count on the wsws taking the side of the murderous dictator. According to the wsws, nearly everything that has gone wrong or will go wrong in the world is America's fault. There is virtually nothing the wsws can't find a reason to blame America for. It is quite laughable really.

Being for world socialism, the wsws sees the United States as the worlds biggest enemy. A giant capitalist American economic engine exposes socialist economies as utterly uncompetative. Over time, uncompetative economies collapse, thus rendering the wsws philosophy and agenda as little more than an outdated, outmoded curiousity. It is pretty clear to most people that socialist command and control economies don't work, but some ideologues are determined to hang on to the fantasy. Others even delude themselves into thinking places like Cuba are a model for the world - nevermind that its economy is in shambles and is nearly completely unproductive.

Regulated capitalism works, socialism of the kind the wsws supports is a dismal failure.

In the meantime, you can count on the likes of the wsws treating America as public enemy number one.

Imajika

[IndianaGreen]

103. There is no such animal as "regulated capitalism"

What you have is capitalism with enough scraps of socialism to prevent the natives from storming the castle with their pitchforks.

Why settle for scraps when we can have the whole thing?

[Imajika]

119. Because you can't have the whole thing....

"Why settle for scraps when we can have the whole thing?"

Because it doesn't work. I know your a true believer, but at some point your going to have to recognize that command and control socialist economies are flat out uncompetative, overly bureaucratic, completely lacking needed consistant innovation - and at the end of the day just do not work.

You remove incentive from people and they just won't do much. You can shout all the slogans you want about power to the worker and the poeple, but at the end of the day human beings almost always try to better themselves, take away their ability to do so and they will quit making much effort at anything other than protecting their own little lot in life. This is precisely why socialist economies crumble. The only way to keep a socialist economy going is to take away people's right to vote for change. It is why communism and democracy do not go hand in hand.

"What you have is capitalism with enough scraps of socialism to prevent the natives from storming the castle with their pitchforks."

No, what you have with regulated capitalism is a recognition that the free market generates the best economic growth. The key to regulation is to level the playing field as best as reasonably possible, and use some of the wealth generated by a capitalist economy to help out the disadvantaged and truly needy.

That is the problem with the GOP, they want the capitalism part that generates such a powerful economy, but they don't believe in using a portion of the wealth it creates to lift those in poverty or promote the general welfare of society.

In theory, socialism sounds wonderful. But reality just has a way of shattering utopian theories. In practice, with socialism, all too often all that happens is powerful bureaucrats and politicians replace rich business people at the top of the food chain. The poor may see some benefit initially, but as the economy crumbles under an unworkable system, everyone with the exception of the politicians whom rose to power end up much worse off.

Imajika

[Euphen]

151. Not to get too far off topic here, but

the WSWS's point of view is hardly as simplistic as you seem to think. The WSWS shouldn't be confused with the type of idiotic radicals at ANSWER, and has always been against the kind of anti-americanism we are seeing at this march. Take this article for example:

Anti-Americanism: The “anti-imperialism” of fools
By David North and David Walsh
22 September 2001

<snip>

To present “the US” as some predatory imperialist monolith, as Raven and others do, can only confuse and disorient. It not only serves as a barrier to genuine internationalism, it overlooks the contradictory character of American history and society. What does it mean to “dislike the US”? What sort of social element speaks like this? The United States is a complex entity, with a complex history, elements of which are distinctly ignoble, elements of which are deeply noble. The US has passed through two revolutions—the American Revolution and the Civil War—the mass battles of the Depression and the struggle for Civil Rights. The contradiction between the democratic ideals and revolutionary principles on which the nation was founded and its social and political realities has always been the starting point of the struggle for socialism in the United States.

The US was, if one considers the relationship between theory and politics, the product of the great Enlightenment. It established political principles, embodied in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, rather than religion or ethnicity, as the basis of national identity. This origin of the nation in the struggle for abstract ideals—democracy, republicanism—reverberated across the globe. The American Revolution played no small role in inspiring the events that transformed France a decade later.

Even after 200 years, the United States is still fighting through the political and historical implications of its own founding principles. The American population, polyglot and highly diverse, is obsessed with ideological problems, although its approach is often maddeningly pragmatic. As the popular response to the Bush hijacking of the 2000 election demonstrated, there remains a deep commitment to elementary democratic principles. A low level of class consciousness and the failure of masses of Americans to generalize from their experiences, however, provides the ruling elite the opportunity to play on precisely these democratic notions in order to blind layers of the population temporarily as to the true nature of its plans. For Bush and his ilk “defending freedom and democracy” is merely a code phrase for the right of the American elite to have its way around the world. To the ordinary American citizen, these words mean something quite different. The sinister reality of the US government’s new “war against terrorism,” with its grandiose aim of reorganizing an entire region of the world in line with American geopolitical interests, will make its way into popular consciousness providing the necessary work is conducted by socialist internationalists.

In many ways all the vast problems in the struggle for socialism find their most complex expression in America. How could that not be the case? If one cannot find points of departure for a higher form of social organization in the US, in what corner of the globe are they to be found? What’s more, the individual who sees no basis for socialism in America clearly has given up on the prospects of world socialism altogether. The Marxist has always been distinguished from the common or garden variety radical by his or her deep confidence in the revolutionary potential of the American working class(my italics). In this regard, the US ruling elite has a much greater insight into the true nature of American society than the blinkered radical. The American bourgeoisie inveighs night and day against socialism and communism, in a manner far out of proportion to the threat currently posed by the socialist movement in the US, because it understands or at least senses instinctively that in the most advanced capitalist society, all things being equal, socialism offers such a rational and attractive alternative.

-----------------------

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/rads-s22.shtml

The WSWS did not oppose the war against Yugoslavia due to Anti-Americanism or support of Milosivec, but out of a Marxist analysis of the social forces behind it. To your average middle-class radical, with a simplistic, black-and-white view of the world, oppostion to US imperialism can only take the form of support for it's enemies, which is why organizations such as the Worker's World party and it's front ANSWER find themselves supporting petty-tyrants like Kim-Jong Il and Fidel Castro.

[goobergunch]

44. I know about ANSWER

And I'm not a big fan.

Agreed that this is not a Democratic event. However, it will be percieved as such by others.

[Melinda]

54. Not necessarily a bad thing

especially considering that the majority of those participating most likely vote democrat.

BTW, the Co-Sponsors of today's events are United For Peace, a coalition of more than 650 individual organizations across this country. Multi-cultural diverse, this is homegrown activism at its best.

[goobergunch]

57. See #30 and #34 (n/t)

[Melinda]

71. So what? they did the same last March w/NYC and Feb in DC...

as well as in October of 2002. As a matter of fact, it was their laughing at last fall's march that led FreeRepublic to hold their own event next to ours in DC earlier this year... remember their HUGE rally of 10 or so freepers? Remember Kristin?

Daschle and company are complacent and the freepers laugh.
I don't give a flying fuck about freepers and neither should anyone else.

[BurtWorm]

120. Minor quibble: Democrat is a noun.

Democrat used as an adjective (Democrat event, Democrat party, Democrat Senator), is a FREEPERISM, GODDAMMIT!!! So please refrain from making this grammatical error.

Thank you, kindly.

:hi:

[bearfartinthewoods]

321. i keep hearing this complaint and repeatedly asking

if this is a regional thing. i wish i had a digicamera so i could take a picture of the 4X6 foot VOTE DEMOCRAT sign that i pass everytime i go to m MILs.

[drdon326]

35. The WWE had more believeability.....

mumia
cuba
n. korea
puerto rico
the obligatory israel bashing
phillipines

just f**king compelling

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. These groups are part of the coalition

and as such, should be welcomed as allies in the struggle to stop the U.S. occupation of Iraq. I saw their speeches as brief "commercials" for their particular causes, but they didn't lose sight of the main message. Also, having a variety of messages made the speeches more interesting for the crowd that stood there more than two hours.

As far as their particular messages are concerned, I didn't agree with all of them, but a lot of the seemingly "irrelevant" ones were extremely relevant, even if the connection isn't obvious.

Take the example of the protestors from the Philippines, whom one poster was so sarcastically dismissive of. It is relevant because Bushboy has said that he sees the Philippines as an example of how to build democracy. The Filipinos were there to say, "Think again."

You may not have liked hearing what you heard today, but maybe that's because you needed to have some illusions punctured, and that's always painful.

Besides, if you ever get seriously into an issue, you begin to see that there's no such thing as an isolated problem. The more you delve into a problem, the more you find that it is inextricably connected to other problems.

[Ardee]

164. Yes lets be selective as hell....

The democrats couldnt win the mid term elections, traditionally a walk in th epark for the opposition party, yet here we see such political snobbery ,we see folks attempting to pick and choose their allies...welcome to another four years of Bush and it wont be Nader's fault it will be yours and all those like you.....

[Democat]

237. How many Answer people are going to vote Democrat? Very few.

They are on the left, but I doubt they aren going to help us win in 2004.

[laura888]

240. wake up! there's a movement brewing while your piddling over...

..."what's best for the democratic party."

The democratic party is going to be left behind in the dust.

Besides you don't have anyway of knowing the voting records of the 50,000+ (grandmothers, veterans, etc, etc.) at the rally.

[Neecy]

263. reality check

Um....this is a Democratic site. Meaning, the majority of us are Democrats and therefore it's not unusual to have concern over what's best for the Democratic party.

[LibInternationalist]

55. And that is why I didn't go

despite being only a metro ride away -- I went to the large anti-war one in DC in February, I think, and the same ridiculous lack of focus happened

[WoodrowFan]

314. Same Here (kinda)

I refuse to be taken as a supporter for the American-hating lefties in ANSWER. I hate Bush. I hate what he and the RWers are doing to my country! I hate that they are committing evil in the name of the US!. But my country is not evil, not every thing we do is evil, and not every third world country is a sainted victim of the US!


(Plus, I had work to do!)

[Minstrel Boy]

56. My take on the demo, as a leftist,

is that I regret that so much of what I heard was off message. I wasn't able to catch much, and though there was nothing I heard that I disagreed with, I deeply regretted the loss of focus. Yes, US policy towards Cuba is reprehensible, but that's not why the tens of thousands have assembled today. It ought not be a platform for a grab bag of grievances, some of which a good portion of the crowd may not share, which may dissuade them from marching again.

War? Bad. Iraq? Out. Keep it simple, campesinos.

[livinontheedge]

60. I pray to God the truly "swing" voters didn't see this demonstration.

What was the point of this demonstration? No really, did the protestors truly hope to sway public opinion? Or did they merely want to vent. I fear all they actually accomplished was to turn off the very, very few moderates who might have been watching C-Span. I've never seen so many people on emotional steroids. I would have loved nothing more than to have had our talking points presented by sensible, articulate, and CALM speakers. This sure makes it easy for the wingnuts to paint us as hysterical whacko extremist hippies. I'm sure freeperville is BEGGING C-Span to replay this protest over and over and over and over.

[Forkboy]

64. 2 things

1-none of us should give a wet fart what the Freepers think about anything.
2-let the Freeps call CSpan...maybe they can replay the Freeper rally with all of ten people there immediately following.

[livinontheedge]

77. You missed my point . . . this plays right in to Karl Rove's strategy

He wants to paint all democrats as anti-American hippy extremist appeasers. This might have helped him.

[Minstrel Boy]

89. Don't worry so much about Rove;

worry more about the Democratic Party getting its own shit together.

This rally wasn't branded "Democratic," and opposition to the war certainly doesn't come with a DLC copyright.

"Hippy extremist appeasers" is pretty funny. But those most guilty of appeasement belong to the Democratic leadership, who have conceded so much ground already to the greatest threat to world peace, that bastard in Al Gore's house.

And "extreme"? Well, extreme times.

[Forkboy]

93. but we'll be painted by Rove,Inc no matter what we do

so we might as well at least stand up for what we believe in,be ourselves and let the chips fall where they may.The other option seems to be to pretend to be something we're not.

This,to me,seems to be the main split I see in the Dem Party right now.There's a core group who feel that the Dems can only lean so much to the right without losing their identity,and there's a core group that feel that things are so bad that political expediancy is the best answer to get us back on track.

I can se points to both sides in the arguement,but I admit I more than lean to the first group.I feel the Dems are losing their idendity (quickly) by having a message that boils down to "Vote for me,I'm not as bad as the other guy." We need to stand for our liberal beliefs (and both the centrists and leftists DO share a major chunk of these) more vocally,more forcefully and with more passion.

This rally,while not being as focused and/or presentable as many would prefer,does these things I mention.

[Beaker]

85. Don't worry- not too many truly "swing" voters watch C-SPAN anyway.

It takes a pretty hardcore politico to tune in the droning, and they're usually pretty partisan, one way or the other.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

149. Don't assume what the swing voters want

The left is always warned against assuming that the swing voters want anything other than vague and fuzzy Republican Lite.

By the same token, conservative Dems should not assume that swing voters will be turned off by what they saw of the demonstration, if indeed, they bothered to watch it at all. (I doubt that your average swing voter is interested enough to sit through two plus hours of a rally about an issue that isn't high on their list of priorities.)

If swing voters are truly swing voters, then they are a diverse lot, and some of them may have their eyes opened.

I know, because it happened to me during the Vietnam War. Things that I heard at a campus rally suddenly made sense.

[Tinoire]

291. Who on earth gives a flying F about swing voters?

Swing voters are so confused they probably can't differentiate a Leftist rally from a Freeper rally.

I HOPE they all see it- it might wake some of them up because they're going to start waking up SOON as soon as the boys start coming home with that thousand yard stare in their eyes.

Why would you care more about chasing a few votes from confused people than encouraging more Leftists to return to the Democratic Party with whom they have a lot more in common?

I'm a Democratic Leftist Pinko Commie granola-crunching yoghurt slurping faggot- the base of my party and if the swing voters don't like it, they can lump it! Let them stick to the articulate CALM speakers like Powell and that quivering Condi sack of Rice. The cold bodies of dead American soldiers should be calm enough for them.

The last thing we need in the Democratic Party are more people who can't think and/or who care more about appearances than substance.

[E_Zapata]

65. Check out my thread.....maybe a good idea?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=590116

[Lars39]

70. Yes, I like the idea.

Especially with Mari's suggestion of emphasis on the military families, etc. If ANSWER can do it, why couldn't DU? The question is, would the notion get the pro-ANSWER folks' noses out of joint, by even suggesting that we by-pass that organization?

[grasswire]

78. I'm sorry

I've said this from the beginning.

Is the goal of the march is to influence America to repudiate Bush policy? If so, affiliation with organizations seen as extremist fringe nullifies any benefit. It's simply too easy for the media to dismiss the protests as old grievances.

An effective march against Bush policy would look like the protests one sees in other parts of the world. People dressed in serious clothes, in solidarity on the issue.

Remember, people of color didn't make progress through puppets and face painting and stilt-walkers. They had one message. And they marched with serious determination, focused on one goal.

[Forkboy]

66. "This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed"

You're just hanging out with the wrong crowd :evilgrin:

[Q]

68. Considering a majority of answers on this thread...

...it's no fucking wonder why the Democratic party is in the MINORITY.

- Bush* is guaranteed a win with this type of mush.

[ShaneGR]

75. Wah, no one agrees with us....

Down with the Democrats! Huh?

[livinontheedge]

84. NO! Up with democrats!!!!!

Down with "events" that hurt our ability to attract enough voters to beat Bush. This is not the way to get our message out to swing voters. If people only want to vent, do it away from the cameras. If you want to PERSUADE undecided voters to our cause, then you need to present your issues in a calm, dignified, respectful manner. Screetching doesn't win you many new friends.

[drdon326]

88. Yeah....but they did have great RAPPERS

THAT really added to the festivities.

[bpilgrim]

122. where you there?

rap is a great way to deliver a message far and wide.

http://globalfreepress.com/mp3/AntiBush/daveyd/paristrack_what_would_you_do.mp3

thanks for passin the word :toast:

peace

[Democat]

238. How many Answer supporters vote for Democrats?

How many of them vote at all?

[laura888]

242. do you also ask "how many voters were at M.L. King's march..."

on washington in the 1960's" ??

Oh those civil rights people - they're just a fringe group.

I'm not a huge ANSWER organizer or anything - I just think they did a hell of a job on organizing the march.

You should be proud of them - shame on you.

[bpilgrim]

69. it was a RALLY, folks are usually OUTSPOKEN and LOUD at a RALLY

second, there wouldn't even be a RALLY without the internet.

third, it is our foreign policy that has led to this mess it is good to hear from foreign perspectives on how it impacts real peoples lives.

i don't see any problem with it.

peace

[Tinoire]

292. dupe

[Tinoire]

293. Those complaining the loudest had no intention of going so

their distaste is no surprise.

Make no waves... Nothing to see here... America is fat and happy...

:shrug:

So happy I went and raised a RUCKUS for all the people who couldn't make it.

[diamond14]

312. IMO, it's a joy that all hateful spiteful nasty DUers stayed home...

such downdraft would have spoiled a beautiful day, with a lot of community oriented people who really CARE about America...

IMO, some DUers posting on this thread should cut down on their oxycotin intake...such a nasty bunch of arm-chair critics, too lazy to get up off their asses for anything important (whether they organize it or others organize it, there will always be those draining the effort as much as they can)....

[Beaker]

81. Those "Free Mumia" people make me sick!!

why don't they just conduct their own marches and protests on their own terms, and quit butting in on everyone else's?

The guy is a confessed, guilty Cop Killer.
He should be in jail.
IMHO, cop-killing should be one of the very few crimes that should be allowed to carry the death penalty.

I understand that they have their 1st amendment rights, but out of common courtesy, if they want to participate in a rally, they should stick to the topic at hand.

[IndianaGreen]

90. And those Democrats that voted to ban "partial-birth" abortion

make me terribly sick.

That means YOU, Evan Bayh, asshole from Indiana!

[Blitz]

158. How about the asshole from South Carolina?

Does he make you terribly sick as well?

[IndianaGreen]

163. Bayh is the asshole that I voted for 5 years ago

and he is the asshole that I won't be voting for when he runs for reelection next year.

As to why John Edwards managed to be AWOL on this vote, I can only point out that his colleagues Joe Lieberman and John Kerry both voted to protect women's reproductive rights, and for that I am grateful.

When it comes to women's rights, Lieberman and Kerry deserve our commendation.

When it comes to gay rights, I will have to point out that Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards, and asshole Bayh are sponsors of S. 1705, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2003.

[Blitz]

209. My mistake

I had a brain cramp. I meant to say "the asshole from West Virginia." I did not mean to attack Edwards who, I believe, would have opposed this bill.

[G_j]

277. try again, Edwards is in NC n/t

[Blitz]

290. I know where Edwards is from; I was referring to Robert C. Byrd

eom

[Loyal]

212. THIS CONVERSATION IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION!

WHY DO YOU TURN EVERY CONVERSATION INTO A BASH EVAN BAYH THREAD ABOUT HIS PBA VOTE? JOHN EDWARDS WAS ABSENT BECAUSE HE WAS BUSY THAT DAY, AND HE HAS VOTED AGAINST THE PBA BAN PREVIOUSLY. :mad:

[IndianaGreen]

216. Take a Prozac

support Lilly as Bayh and Mitch Daniels do.

[Loyal]

229. IG, stop acting stupid.

Resort to ad hominem attacks if you must, and let it shine through that you cannot handle direct attacks on your threads.

[Tinoire]

289. Oh yeah... Let's pretend people like Evan Bayh & his admirers

aren't part of the problem! Let's keep everyone in the dark about who all the enablers of this mess are.

The names of Evan Bayh and his collaborators are coming up at these protests- it does my heart PROUD to see that so many people are aware of the sad reality that the cancer is present in the Democratic Party also.

People like Bayh need to be denounced and differentiated from honorable Democrats at every possible opportunity since America since repitition is apparently the key with cement-headed and/or uninformed people.

SF had several signs denouncing the DLC specifically. It did my heart proud.

[Gemini Cat]

109. Why cop "killers"?

"IMHO, cop-killing should be one of the very few crimes that should be allowed to carry the death penalty."

Why should the "cop killers" be one of the 'few' who take the final dance with the needle?
What about soccer moms who murder their children? Cops have a choice in being a cop. Children on the other hand, have no choice.

[Beaker]

132. Cops are a symbol of authority, and law and order-

the "thin blue line" that protects us from living in anarchy. Yes, thay made the concious choice to become police officers, and not to sound corny, but- to put their lives on the line in service to their community. Those people not willing to respect their authority need to be made an example of, and deserve no place in society, even prison.

Call it a 'social contract'.

By the same token, I would be for extremely harsh sentences, possibly even the death penalty in extreme cases, for corruption/abuse of authority by police and/or elected officials.

As for mothers that murder their children- That's usually a pretty good sign of some kind of mental instability that needs treatment, not execution. Besides, locking her in a cell and letting her think about it for the rest of her life is probably an even worse punishment, if that's what you're looking for.

[durutti]

133. Authority is Not Always Legitimate

If police are enforcing an unjust social order, then isn't it possible to conceive of attacks against them as just, at least in some circumstances?

And let's be honest. A lot of cops don't give a rat's ass about service to the community. They're bullies.

[Beaker]

138. "Unjust Social Order" is best addressed at the ballot box-

not by killing cops.
As to the 'dirty cops' yes they do exist, and yes some of them are bullies and assholes, and as I tried to point out- they should certainly be dealt with harshly.
But I still like to believe that most of them have the best interest of the general public at heart.
but then maybe I'm just naive...I don't have all that many run-ins with them, and by far, the biggest share of the ones that I've seen at events seem to be nice enough.

[durutti]

129. Wrong

why don't they just conduct their own marches and protests on their own terms, and quit butting in on everyone else's?

Because single-issue politics is a dead end. Every issue ties into every other issue.

The guy is a confessed, guilty Cop Killer.

Certainly not. The original police report by officer Gary Wakshul who was with Mumia the entire time through his arrest and medical treatment stated, "during this time the Negro male made no comment."

Three other people claim to have heard Mumia confess.

One is security guard Priscilla Durham. Durham testified that in the hospital, Mumia said that he shot Daniel Faulkner and hoped he died.

This testimony has been refuted by Durham's half-brother, Kenneth Pate, who filed a declaration stating that "I read a newspaper article about the Mumia Abu-Jamal case. It said Priscilla Durham had testified at Mumia's trial that when she was working as a security guard at the hospital she heard Mumia say that he had killed the police officer. When I read this I realized it was a different story from what she had told me."

Instead Kenneth Pate states in reference to her court testimony of hearing Mumia say: "I shot the motherf---er and I hope he dies." That he asked her, '"Did you hear him say that?" Priscilla said: "All I heard him say was: 'Get off me, get off me, they're trying to kill me.'"

In the affidavit Kenneth Pate also states, "She said that when the police brought him in that night she was working at the hospital. Mumia was all bloody and the police were interfering with his treatment, saying 'let him die.' Priscilla said that the police told her that she was part of the "brotherhood" of police since she was a security guard and that she had to stick with them and say that she heard Mumia say that he killed the police officer."

Officer Gary Bell didn't claim that Jamal said anything until two months after the fact.

Doctors who were with Jamal from the time he got to the hospital testified that he was "weak...on the verge of fainting", and that they didn't hear him say anything that could be interpreted as a confession.

Perhaps you're referring to Phillip Bloch, a prison volunteer who claimed that Mumia confessed to him. Yet Bloch wrote a letter to Mumia after Mumia supposedly confessed, expressing belief in Mumia's innocence.

[Beaker]

137. I've NEVER seen "Free Mumia" as an 'advertised' cause-

of any protest/demonstration that I've attended...and yet, somehow, they always manage to ooze out of the woodwork and from under their rocks, and claim a part of the event as their own.

Do you happen to know- how many multi-issue events do the "Free Mumia" people actively sponsor each year??

As to the actual mumia content of your post-
I skipped over it, as I have seen way more than enough from both sides, and made my mind up quite awhile back that he's exactly where he belongs. It is one issue, like abortion rights(I'm pro-choice) to which my is made up, and closed off to further input.
Sorry.

[jiacinto]

188. Mumia did kill Faulkter

It's sad that some people choose to elevate this man to a hero level.

[Monte Carlo]

83. Do you know what these protests need? FOCUS!!

I believe that focus, more than anything else, is what we are lacking in these protests. All these causes are great and everything, but put them all together and you get a muddled, distorted sound through to the rest of the country. It seems as though there is no central authority.

We need to focus on ONE issue at a time in these mass gatherings. We need a message that cuts like a knife, with as little meandering as possible.

IT'S A SMALL PLANET, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.

[Monte Carlo]

87. IT'S A SMALL PLANET, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER! - our message.

Just a suggestion. "We really don't care much for Bush" is great, but we need to agree on an alternate course for this country.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. The event

was cathartic for the participants but it probably scared 95% of the people who watch it....


A bunch of lefties acting crazy is a right wing wet dream just as the Freepers embarassing themselves with their events is a left wing wet dream....

[Q]

94. Nah...the FReepers 'wet dream' is the do-nothing Dems...

...who are too frightened to anything about their King George. They must love how YOU worry so much about how THEY think. But that's the Dem party in a nutshell these days. We can't do THAT...what would the RWingers think? We can't offend the RWingers. Oh, my.

- The same thing was said about US when we marched and rallied against the Vietnam Police Action. Now we have a group of NeoDems calling AMERICANS who protest against Bush and other concerns 'extremists'.

- Hell...you can't tell Republicans from the NeoDems without a program.

[Melinda]

101. "Hell...you can't tell Republicans from the NeoDems without a program."

Scary stuff Q -- and oh, too true. :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. Au Contraire

I could give a hoot what freepers think.... They marginalize themselves as well as the folks on tv today... Joe Six Pack thinks they're both crazy....

By the way I do care what Joe SixPack thinks cuz him and his missus will be electing the next pres...

[laura888]

199. wrong - I was at the event - Joe SixPack WAS there

there were representatives from EVERY demographic group - I swear!

[sleipnir]

96. That's always the problem with ANSWER rallys.

[msanger]

97. Just got back from the rally

and it was the same story as in the rallies BEFORE bush invaded Iraq. The speakers were loud and I think ignored by most particpants and there was the same mix of young radicals, old radicals, clergy, unions, and everything else you could think of.

People attended the rally to make their oppostion to bush visable. That ANSWER organized it tends to be seen as an inevitable bad "by product."

Anyway, the energy was good, I pumped into a coupld of DUers - and everybody there got a little more energized.

[drdon326]

99. Which RAPPERS song was your favorite?

it really fit in soooo well.



eosarcasm.

[Forkboy]

104. They should have gotten Jethro Tull

[drdon326]

106. I might have even gone.

you DO seen to remember alot.....

oh, thats right....you put it in my file.
that explains it. lol

[Forkboy]

135. I'm guessing a cool band

is the only way to get you to stand up for a progressive agenda.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

113. Eminem

Snoop Doggy Dog

Dr. Dre

Missy Elliot

would have been preferable......





or maybe P E....

[RebelOne]

152. Right on!!!

Jethro Tull, great group.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

288. Prime Meridian

[durutti]

110. Wrong on Resistance & Korea

1. The organizers presented an unbelievable amount of speakers from special interest internet sites. Over half of the speeches have ended with "Go to our website." I was particularly fond of all of the free mumia people.

I've been to a few ANSWER rallies, and I think they have too many speakers, period. I'm pretty critical of ANSWER generally; but going to an ANSWER rally is better than not going to any rally, IMHO.

2. The organizers have presented foreign born speakers to account for around half of the overall talking. So in between talking about the 3 main goals of the rally, we hear about American atrocity in the Philipines, South Korea, North Korea, the Middle-east, South America, Central America, Nexico, Africa.... You name it, they found someone from one of those countries.

Good. This serves to raise awareness. They might have overdone it a bit, but there is a place for such things at Iraq-focused events.

And a few of the speakers openly talked about working with groups who are involved with the Iraqi Resistance (That group shooting at our soldiers.)

Arrrgh! O.K., now you're just making me angry...

I pity the American soldiers who have to go to Iraq. I think that the most we can do to support the troops is to demand that they're brought home.

However, I don't support the occupation of Iraq. U.S. soldiers are enforcing that occupation. The Iraqi people have a right to violently resist occupation. I'm sorry, but I'm not rooting for U.S. soldiers in Iraq. I wish that no one had to die. But U.S. troops in Iraq are Redcoats. They're legitimate targets.

I was also surprised to find that the South Koreans have forgotten the North Koreans INVADED THEM, not us.

Ah, the textbook propaganda version of history...

The Korean War was almost exactly like Vietnam. It was just as unjustified. We just don't think of it that way because we didn't lose it (which really tells us something about the American ideology, I think).

There was one Korea. There was no North and South until the nation was carved up by the Americans, who didn't want the Soviets to take all of the country. As soon as the Japanese were defeated, the South Koreans established a democratically elected People's Republic of Korea. Shortly thereafter, U.S. troops poured into the South and smashed the newly formed government.

The South Koreans overwhelmingly wanted to be part of the North. The North's attempt at reunification was a just war against U.S. imperialism.

[ShaneGR]

125. Nice revisionism about Korea.... here's what actually happened

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/kowar/un-rok/un-rok.htm

United Nations and Republic of Korea Forces --
Overview and Special Image Selection

For all but the first few days of the Korean War, the United Nations provided crucial military help to sustain the Republic of Korea (ROK) in its struggle against armed aggression from the north. Of the combatant UN states, the United States provided by far the vast majority of forces on land, sea and air. However, by the conflict's end there were more ROK ground troops in the battle line than those of all other nations combined. The most senior UN commanders were always Americans, though some flag and general officers from other countries held important subordinate operational posts.

Ultimately, fifteen other UN members sent armed forces to participate in the conflict. First into action, and always providing the greatest total numbers, were the British and other members of the Commonwealth, including Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa. A Royal Navy or Australian light fleet carrier was generally present, along with one or two RN light cruisers and several UK/Commonwealth destroyers and frigates. British and Commonwealth ground and air forces were also numerous and in the fight early, with the land contingent building up to division strength. Royal Marine Commandos provided UN commanders with a distinctive, and extensively used, coastal raiding force. The British and Commonwealth countries, given the size of their contribution, also used their own aircraft, weapons and equipment, unlike the other UN forces, which mostly had U.S. weapons and materiel.

Other nations providing forces included brigade or regimental size ground elements from Turkey, Thailand and the Philippines. Belgium, Columbia, Ethopia, France, Greece and The Netherlands sent battalions and little Luxembourg contributed a company. Some of these countries also were represented by small numbers of warships, often former U.S. Navy vessels, and by aircraft. Denmark, India, Italy, Norway and Sweden had medical units in the combat zone. The contribution of the Japanese, still under Allied occupation when the Korean War began, included many invaluable LSTs and inshore minesweepers, plus a significant contingent of merchant ships, stevedores and other hired support personnel in and around Korea, plus the extensive base system in the Japanese home islands.

The Republic of Korea Navy fought hard from the beginning of North Korea's invasion, scoring some very significant successes against enemy efforts to land troops behind UN lines. ROK minesweepers were active throughout the war, helping open ports and keeping coastal waters clear for logistics and gunnery ships. Through the war, the ROK Navy steadily grew as more personnel were trained. The United States transferred five frigates (PF) to Korea, plus many smaller patrol ships, landing vessels and minecraft. The ROK's ground forces and its small air force were also intensively developed, reaching a point where they could be counted as the equal in many ways to the best from abroad.

[LittleApple81]

128. Colombia, not Columbia n/t

[durutti]

131. So?

This doesn't refute anything I said.

Korea was one nation. The South wanted to be part of the North. The U.S. sent troops to smash the South's left-leaning government. The imperialist powers divided Korea. The North's war to reunify Korea was right. Hell, without the int'l presence, there would have been no war -- the South would've joined the North voluntarily.

[ShaneGR]

134. Dude, you are all over the place... the leftist south wanted to what?

Uh, the Communists (FAR LEFT) in the north invaded the socialist-capitalists in the south. Not the other way around.

You've got it completely backass backwards.

[TreasonousBastard]

112. I guess you missed last year's...

which was pretty much the same thing, but a lot larger.

A.N.S.W.E.R.'s ties to radical left and communist organizations was exposed and discussed ad infinitum back then. The same objections to Leonard Peltier and Mumia getting more speech time than Iraq were made, even though most of the people there seemed to agree with many of the speakers. Some of the speakers were there just as part of the deal supporting the coalition.

But, hardly anybody really cared about the speakers. Most of the people were there to show their extreme displeasure with Shrub and the impending hostilities. The idea was to have a lot of bodies showing just how deep that displeasure was.

I was there with two groups last year, and we all ignored the speeches, wanting to get on with the marching and our own yelling. The media completely ignored the speakers, and gave very short shrift to the whole thing, not even sending anyone to cover it, except for C-SPAN. Then, they realized how big it was, and talked a little about it being the largest demonstation since Viet Nam, but still ignored the speakers.

Look at the signs-- not many Mumia signs there, but a lot of Shrub Sucks and Fire Rummy stuff. Last year No Blood for Oil was the big one.

A.N.S.W.E.R. is great at organizing, except for the porta-pottie problems, but they do have their heads up their asses about some things. A lot of them are 60's born radicals who never went any further. They still have Ramsey Clark up there, even though he's been brain dead for years.

I'll still go to their rallies, 'cause they turn out the biggest, but I'm going on my terms and my agenda-- not theirs.

[rasputin1952]

136. Ahhh...the voice of reason pops up...

I agree. After the Rally, the marching and the signs were the big draw. It is to show a massive amount of bidies that oppose the admin's absurd crap that counts.

I have a problem with people shouting and screaming, they look like idiots, and act like fools. That's their problem. as for Mumia, I couldn't care less. About the last thing we need is another murderer running around.

Some speeches were good, some sucked, such is the toll speeches take.

i would have loved to be there, but alasd, it was not to be. If I got bored with the speechifying...I would have gone to some of the monumnets I haven't seen in years. DC is a great place to go to!

In any case, ANSWER put boots on the ground, and that is what counts. The signs were anti admin, and that is what counts! People showed up out of dedication to getting rid of bush & co. That is where the boots on the ground count.

:kick:

[Mandate My Ass]

150. Amen

I just got back home from DC. I'd have to say 9 out of 10 signs there were anti-bush, anti-war, anti-imperialism, anti-PNAC, anti-hegemony, anti-PATRIOT ACT. The crowd *was* composed of middle America.

So some other groups were heard from. The core audience *of thousands* were there to voice their displeasure with Bushco. Amen.

[Blue_Tires]

116. back from the rally

Some good points...I admit that after Sharpton spoke, many of the later speakers seemed to drone on and repeat one another...but by that time, half the crowd was already on the march...The cuba faction and the phillipine faction did come up on stage more than once...

[John_H]

118. I agree for the following reasons

Had a great time , especially meeting several DUers--but found myself thinking what folks in my hometown might be thinking if they flipped on C-SPAN.

1) The message was diluted by other issues that may turn off people who otherwise may switch to the ant-war side. People having doubts about the war would have been moved by the mothers of soldiers, by the activists proving how domestic funding have been hurt by war funding, and by the folks talking about the greed of the war profiteers. These people may not be concerned, or even be sympathetic to the "cuban 5," the death row guy, pro-North Korea activists, or the socialist workers' party. Why run that risk just because you want a captive audience at the march?

2)it gives the freeper types ammo--let's face it: some of the speakers were over the top and way out of the mainstream.

Sure my emotional response is fuck them if they can't handle speakers screaming about the opression of the transgender community. But let's think for a minute.

Remember, vietnam didn't end until middle america got on board. We need to keep our eyes on the main prize--even if it means we have to compromise our ideals on issues that don't have a shot at creating the mass appeal we need.

We have powerful arguments against the bush junta and their war, arguments that have the potential to resonate with huge numbers of people. Let's not rob these arguments of their power just to provide a forum to issues that may be important to many, but quite frankly, are not nearly as important as stoping thge biggest evil enterprise on the planet.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

127. Yeah but to wait for middle America to turn off their TV and organize it

would be too late.

Maybe middle America needs to take responsibility for their actions or LACK thereof.

[johnfunk]

130. International ANSWER is not the answer to getting the message across

I saw much of the rally, which though very well-intentioned was a fiasco of too many messages and a few unforgivable gaffes -- including the near-dissing of Viggo Mortenson.

International ANSWER is just plain not the answer for getting the strong three-pronged "Stop the war, support our troops, we want regime change at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in 2004" message across -- especially that of support for troops and veterans. That issue is ripe for stripping from the GOFP.

And yes, I agree with many of the causes that were plugged today. Too many of those causes, however, scare the fence-sitters.

I believe DU and a number of motivated DUers should look at sponsoring an antiwar protest in DC -- and solicit the help of a handful of liberal Democrat "establishment" types (such as James Carville, Leon Fuerth, John Podesta) along with a few nonestablishment Web types who have had successes in organizing events (such BartCop, Jeff Koopersmith and The BuzzFalsh Boyz. Between a few of these guys, you'd see a tight rally featuring activists, A-list celebrities, and prime politicians.

Not only that, but with former club owner BartCop involved, it's a slam-dunk that the sound system would be better -- the amount of distortion and overload, even for an outdoor event, came across unacceptable and amateurish to this recording and radio producer...

<edits in red.

[bpilgrim]

139. GFP is putting up a new group collaboration site

the other was too slow...

At a Glance

MimerDesk is a web-based collaborative learning and groupwork environment designed for a wide variety of uses such as personal management, computer-supported collaborative learning, carrying out projects, and setting up communities. Its main strengths include a very customizable group system which allows many groups to work simultaneously on a shared database with tools like Projects, Calendar, Tasks, Forums, Links, Chat, Reviews, Voting, Files, Instant Messages, Profiles, and many more.

We are the MimerDesk.org staff and our mission is to coordinate the development and testing of MimerDesk by providing the back-end for all the tasks involved in this project.

This includes the complete MimerDesk.org site, its contents, community environment and the processing of bug reports and feature suggestions. We make sure that the project is developed following the project's own guidelines and according to standards.


Features


Powerful information sharing

* Share task items with other users
* Share calendar events with groups and other users
* Chat with other users in realtime through a web based chat application
* Send instant messages to groups and individuals
* Use file attachments together with text in the Forums
* Share files with other group members using a graphical file manager interface
* Receive forum posts directly in your e-mail inbox
* Search for any information in MimerDesk with the search tool


Great tools for personal time management and organization

* Track your list of To-Do items with the task manager
* Task manager has priorities and due dates for the categorized task items
* Manage your contacts with the contacts tool that supports categories
* Save your personal files to the file manager in easy-to-use folders
* MimerDesk helps you identify your documents
* Organize your appointments and time with the calendar application
* Use daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and event specific views in the calendar
* Convenient summary of all the relevant information on the desktop
* Customize your working space to fit your information needs
* Automatic archiving of the instant messages
* Synchronize your Palm PDA with MimerDesk
* Easily organize meetings with the meeting planner


Make contacts with groups and individual users

* Search the user directory for interesting people
* Upload your picture and fill your profile for other people to see
* Send and receive messages instantly
* See online users and last users logged in, including users in the same groups you
* Send an instant application to join a group
* Invite users to join your group with invitation messages
* Add your frequent MimerDesk contacts to a friend list which you can use whenever you are communicating with them


Flexible group work

* Use review system to archive, review, recommend and comment books, wines, food or anything else useful to other group members
* Arrange polls for group members on topics you are interested in
* Share files inside groups
* Use powerful message forums for any kind of work. In the forums you can link files, user profiles and multimedia content in addition to normal formatted text
* Use different type sets in forums to allow allow people to work analytically with information
* Create and manage your group with easy to use admin tools
* Use file manager revision control capabilities to keep track of your file versions
* USe file manager file locking features to work with others on the same files
* Get everything nicely summarized on the group desktop
* Invite new users to join the group and remove old group members easily
* Create a schedule for your group with the scaleable calendar application
* Create a searchable database of useful links to other web sites with descriptions
* See other online group members
* Use project manager to organize your team work
* Evaluate and follow the team work with different GANTT charts
* Share contacts with other group members with the shared address book


Useful admin tools

* Create new user accounts and assign access rights
* View sessions
* Convenient summary of all the relevant information on the admin desktop
* Track users currently logged in
* Add users directly to various groups
* Categorize users in a user tree so it will be easier to manage loads of users
* Define and create available type sets usable in discussion forums
* Manage and edit all groups
* Add many users directly from a file containing the list of new users
* Manage TV-Broadcast of MimerDesk information if you have installed monitors in your organization
* Edit the MimerDesk login page to hold what you want


Easy to use

* MimerDesk interface looks the same for every application
* Once you learn to use one tool you are able to use the rest of the tools
* Icons visualizing different parts and items
* Jump from tool to tool with the fast navigation menu
* Move from group to group with just one click
* Online documentation available
* Each category's info page describes the function of every tool in the category
* The interface looks the same with all popular graphical browsers on all operating system platforms
* Multi-lingual support. Currently supports finnish, english, spanish, italian, estonian, german, norwegian, portuguese, russian, thai, dutch, galician, chinese, french and swedish.
* Update your timezone information while you travel to get the times displayed correcly in your local time


Advanced Application Programming Interface (API) for developers

* Sophisticated translation support
* A full set of easy to use functions to work with databases
* Session management
* Hiding the main interface creation
* Automatic form handling including file uploads
* Making user submitted information secure
* Template system
* Various utilities such as browser detection and file size formatting
* Modular design, easy to add new functions
* Basic time functions like calculating the difference between two dates
* Functions for handling logging, instant messaging etc.
* Identifying image sizes
* Text parsers to support urlifying and I-tags
* Firewalling to prevent some hosts access certain tools
* Functions for initialization and reading the configuration
* Simple functions for generating HTML elements to avoid using HTML tags in your code


...and much more.

I wanna partner up with progressive sites and individuals who want to work online collaberatively which will allow us to organize and focus online.

DU me if anyone interested in joining :hi:

peace

[Malva Zebrina]

140. I watched it and could not understand half of what was said

too much screaming, gesticulating, and apparently crazed, fanatic people up on the stage with different agendas. The rap music was totally incoherent. I applaud those who took the time and the money and who marched and know this is all that can be done right now, because no one else is doing anything else, and people are rather apathetic to doing anything on their own, so will join in here to these other causes just to get the message across, but there was more than one message here--and that is what is disconcerting to me--the pics of the march later were good, but somehow, also bland, lacking energy and apathetic. I have no real right to criticize, since I did not march, but perhaps this input from an interested observer will be worth something. It, the march, did not cut it--and it did not cut it with some of my neighbors and friends who are progressives and I think that is unfortunate--these rallies may be more harmful to the cause than helpful.

[Q]

168. "screaming, gesticulating, and apparently crazed, fanatic people"

- What an awful thing to say. You should be ashamed.

[Malva Zebrina]

175. well I am not--LOL

why should I be ashamed of something that I honestly perceive? I am past that age where I need to think I should be ashamed of what I perceive. If you are still ashamed of your perceptions, then that is your problem, I am not ashamed at all as to what I have posted. What I saw , and I watched the entire thing on C-span, was what I have posted and that is that I could not understand half of what the speakers were saying because they spoke too fast and some even spoke in a language I could not understand--and half of them were gesticulating while speaking something I could not understand and many had other agendas other than protesting the continued occupation of Iraq. What else do you want me to do or say? I discussed this with a couple of my neighbors, and they agreed that a lot of the speakers appeared to be fanatics for a particular cause that they were not concerned about nor involved in and that they could not understand much of what was said either--including the rap group. :shrug: and these neighbors are progressives who do not vote Republican. There needs to be something changed here if these protests are to reach all in the Democratic party and if we are all to subscribe to this agenda, well I will say that some of us will drop out from supporting the protests sponsored by these groups, because we do not care about Mumia and his message from prison at this time--we are concerned about Bush and his arrogance and his unjust and illegal wars.

[Blue_Tires]

225. what happened with mortensen?

I remember him being announced, but for some reason all the sepakers appear as a blur in my mind...The only people I remember well are sharpton and the Mexican father whose Marine son was KIA

[ulysses]

300. ok - couple of things

I believe DU and a number of motivated DUers should look at sponsoring an antiwar protest in DC -- and solicit the help of a handful of liberal Democrat "establishment" types (such as James Carville, Leon Fuerth, John Podesta) along with a few nonestablishment Web types who have had successes in organizing events (such BartCop, Jeff Koopersmith and The BuzzFalsh Boyz. Between a few of these guys, you'd see a tight rally featuring activists, A-list celebrities, and prime politicians.

How many would we get?

How many would we get if we banned everyone wearing "weird" clothes?

What's the likelihood of getting James Carville to headline a protest?

[Tinoire]

307. No thank you

OMG- you can forget that one right off the bat. Activists like me are NOT insterested in genteel DLC watered down, vanilla flavored, activities. The time for that group to have organized any anti-Bush activities was over the last few years- you know, a meeting here or there with Daschle and all the other enablers!

Thank you no. I'll stick to the grass-root amateurs who value susbtance over packaging. Screw the fence-sitters who are too asleep to have caught on by now!

Had they come out to the ANSWER marches when they first really took off 1.5 years ago, they might have influenced the tone then!

Oh yeah... let's just hand over the reins of this grass-roots effort to the establishment! I've been with ANSWER for several years as have the majority of DUers who march and we have experienced no discomfort.

The only ones who seem to be discomfitted by ANSWER's marches/rallies are the pro-Israel people who want to keep pushing the pro-Likud propaganda that the occupation of Palestine has nothing to do with this war and the Conservative Dems who really don't like all this noise about "power to the people" and other such populist sentiments.

[Donna Zen]

142. Success?

The questions:

Do we want to put our energy into a successful rally?

Was this rally successful?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

If our goal is a successful anti-war rally, then what is ANSWER's goal?

Many have mentioned the need for focus. I wasn't there, nor do I have cspan, but from the comments, it sounds as if the anti-war message, the anti-bush message, and a call for a new American vision were blurred or lost altogether.

Rallies are part theater. It sounds as if the audience will be confused--if we're lucky.

[laura888]

145. no - I was there, and the message was NOT lost...

thousands carried signs ABOUT THEIR INDIGNATION ABOUT BUSH AND THE WAR IN IRAQ and marched toward the capitol. And there must have been over 10,000 marchers. 98% of the signs were about Iraq, Rumsfeld, Halliburton - THE STORY WE ALL HATE.

If that's your definition of success, then it was a success.

Laura

[NoMoreRedInk]

143. I agree****

nm

[RebelOne]

154. Me, too

I watched the whole thing on TV. There is no way that the * administration could ignore this rally and march. Wish I could have been there.

[no name no slogan]

156. I hope you're not trusting the media's interpretation of this event

Sure, it may have been organized by ANSWER but there were thousands of people there who had nothing to do with them, but were opposed to the war.

The American media is once again doing its usual horseshit job of covering these things by focusing on the "wackos" in an effort to make them seem "un-American" and "not mainstream", while ignoring the majority of "normal" people who just happen to believe the policy of this nation is wrong.


Don't drink their Kool-Aid, think for yourself. Don't believe what they're telling you.

[Melinda]

161. American media?

Gosh, I didn't realize Sgr2 was a member of the media. </sarcasm>

Know what's wrong with "this picture" as presented? The majority opinions proffered here are based on perceptions of a televised rally and NOT not the actual march, and most certainly not by those of us who have actually participated in like events.

AFAIAC, you're too soft on the media. Thousands upon thousands rocked today. :)

[SoCalDem]

165. The dichotomy of messages....(at rallies, marches)

From the standpoint of "middle america"


republicans...

morality... (vague, but still an emotion filled word)
religious...(misused, but hightly effective as a wedge tool)
personal responsibility...(cloaked racism/classism)
patriotism...(more loaded language,but effective)

They scream these "qualities" from the rooftops and they emanate from every tv and radio in the country.. They have no real application in any of their legislation or in their daily lives, but they are the watchwords of the whole republican "movement".. People, in general, would agree with ALL of these "talking points".. We all know that most people do not read papers, or serious books, so they would like to see themselves framed as holding ALL of these qualities as their own..

democrats...

free Mumia...(most people do not even know WHO he is, and when they find out thst he case involved the death of a cop, they do not line up o his side.. remember...people are too "busy" to delve into matters of unfair trials..(if that is the case here)...

America is an evil imperialist/capitalist force... (this is actually partly true, but again, people do not see themselves as evil, nor do they want to be associated with a group preceived as evil..)

gay rights.. (sure we all know that people should ALL have the same rights, but there are dems in middle america, who, even with gay people in their OWN families, still find the whole issue as "distasteful and shameful")..

---

We are NOT organized, and we probably NEVER will be, because we have so many issues and we have allowed ourselves to be on defense for so many years.. Our leaders have taken the comfy backseat, and are satisfied to stay there, because they are too afraid of being identified as a person with an opinion..an agenda..a philospohy.. They are content to "ride out the storm" every election season, as as long as they stay in office, their objective has been met.. The fact that they never really accomplish anything for their constituents does not seem to bother them in the least..

It's the carrot/stick dilemma...no matter how fast you run, you will never get any closer to that damned carrot..and they know it..

Groups like ANSWER get attention because the right WANTS them to be noticed.. Our side is so despearte for attention, that we align ourselves with ANYONE who gets a chance to speak up.. We do this because our own leaders do not speak up on our behalf.. The right just loves this, because they get to frame us by the "company we keep".. We do not agree with all that ANSWER stands for, though, and again we are on defense, trying to separate out the bits that we DO agree on.. This only complicates the issues more..

The Dems should have been in the streets in November 2000, and we should have stayed there until * felt so much heat he was forced to be the bipartisan guy he claimed to be, but we backed down.. We ALWAYS back down, and they know it..

Until the people we elect start taking some real chances and start LEADING the protests, instead of hiding in the shadows , hoping that no one will notice them, we will be forced to climb into bed with anyone who will at least pretend to love us, even if we wake up alone, and feeling used..

[Imajika]

176. That is a great post SoCalDem

"The right just loves this, because they get to frame us by the 'company we keep'.. We do not agree with all that ANSWER stands for, though, and again we are on defense, trying to separate out the bits that we DO agree on.. This only complicates the issues more"

Great point. Good post.

Imajika

[Neecy]

177. totally agree

We are NOT organized, and we probably NEVER will be, because we have so many issues and we have allowed ourselves to be on defense for so many years..

We *aren't* terribly organized, but there have been a few times when the bullshit gets so out of control the dam breaks. I remember, after 11 years of Reagan/Bush, the fury of the San Francisco protests during Gulf War I. Thousands of us, without a formal organization, massing downtown after dark, shutting down intersections, getting clubbed and arrested by the always-brutal SF cops around Union Square.

Nothing organized. No 'free Mumia' rants. Just thousands of us, drawing chalk body outlines on the sidewalks, singing, chanting, peaceful until the cops got vicious and then we fought back.

I think it's very possible that such spontaneous outbreaks will start happening in major US cities very soon. And perhaps then we'll stop being on the defense.

[Democat]

239. Good post

Democratic leadership sucks and must be replaced.

[goobergunch]

284. Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

[qanda]

166. I posted this in another thread that was locked

Here goes:

I just got back from the rally. And it kind of hurts that there are so many willing to complain about what took place when there is no other venue open to us to express our thoughts and ideas. The right wing sets the agenda, controls the agenda and forces their agenda upon us. They don't worry about how radical it is or how it may offend someone. What's more radical than dropping 35,000 bombs on a country the size of California?

The reason the movement won't go anywhere is because there are too many people sitting around complaining and pissing in the corn flakes of those who are getting off their butts and doing something about their anger. I am NO leftist, but I actually thought there was a great range of speakers there today. Some people do try to get their own agendas and messages across, but the central theme is that they all feel screwed by this administration and the powers that be.

Please pardon the rant, but I read some of the posts about the rally on another thread and it really burns my butt that I was out there for hours with my two children trying to take my country back and all I hear when I get back is how terrible it was. I'm sorry that it was a disappointment to so many. But since you didn't like what you saw, it is time to start your own rally and I wish you luck in your endeavor to please everyone!

[nostamj]

170. i was there too

and, frankly, I just too damn tired to read 170+ posts. but I get the gist.

there were some 'fringe' speakers. but most were on message. there were too many speakers and too much redundancy by the end.

it was a HUGE turn-out, a beautiful day, I got to (finally) meet some DUers I've always wanted to meet.

maybe you had to be there. it was OVERALL a very positive event and utterly damning of all things bush...

[Q]

173. Thanks for your dedication, nostamj and pbl...

...It makes me wonder how many of the 'complainers' showed up? Probably none.

- It takes a lot of time, energy and money to organize any event of this size.

- I attended the Vietnam rallies in DC...and they were just as 'disorganized' as this one. Such is the nature of the beast. And just like this event today...most of the people attending were there to protest the injustice of the government.

- Thanks again for your participation. It's too bad the complainers were more concerned about how it 'looked' rather than listening to the message.

[nostamj]

179. ya had to be there Q...

it was an extraordinary turn-out. i'm not a young man, and frankly, i'm beat. it takes time, energy and money to attend an event like this (i took amtrak from NYC with a friend)

what was televised on c-span, was a fragment of the entire event.

what a turn-out. what diversity.

best chant in the actual march:

WHAT DOES DEMOCRACY LOOK LIKE?

THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!

to me, it was not about speakers in the 'rally'

it was about the spirit in the MARCH

maybe, you had to BE THERE.

(next time.....)

[laura888]

182. I was there, and I found it totally positive and moving

hearing the massve amounts of people yelling and drumbs beating from down the street - it was like thunder.... waves and waves of people. They just kept comin.'

I took almost 4 rolls of film and will post them soon.

[maha]

201. Eyes on the Prize.

"I attended the Vietnam rallies in DC...and they were just as 'disorganized' as this one. Such is the nature of the beast. And just like this event today...most of the people attending were there to protest the injustice of the government."

The anti-Vietnam War movement had two major accomplishments -- the election of Richard Nixon and the re-election of Richard Nixon.

I was in college in those years and participated in a few protests myself, but I saw time and time again that the bigger, messier protests actually frightened "middle" Americans more than the war did and drove people into the arms of Nixon and CREEP.

Let's not make the same mistake again. Mass protests might be very self-gratifying for those who attend, but they may be counter-productive to the Cause. Perhaps we need to find other ways to protest the war and occupation of Iraq than taking to the streets.

[MaidinVermont]

174. working with groups who are involved with the Iraqi Resistance

"(That group shooting at our soldiers.)"

Sick. Sleeping with ANSWER will destroy what's left of the democratic party. Sick.

[bigtree]

195. proof please,

that ANSWER supports groups who are shooting at our soldiers.

To accuse them without providing proof is "sick".

[MaidinVermont]

205. ANSWER allows speakers that support those shooting at our soldiers.

Watch CSPAN and prepare to be sick.

[Melinda]

206. Again, please provide supporting evidence of your claim.

[MaidinVermont]

210. You'll need to watch the CSPAN coverage

Sorry but I don't have a copy of it on tape.

[Melinda]

213. You also don't know what your are talking about.

Lose the filter and open your ears next time you watch the replay; No one called for or advocated violence toward our troops -- no one.

[MaidinVermont]

221. Oh but I do know of that which I speak

If a speaker expresses support for the resistance forces that are killing our soldiers then that support is an advocation of the violence being massed against our young men and women trying to bring democracy to Iraq.

We all have filters but the mesh of mine appears to be larger than the filter you have. So, unless you can give me a good reason to "lose" mine while you retain yours I must insist to resist your demand.

[Melinda]

219. You are either ignorant OR you are dissimulating.

If the first, research non-violence, A.N.S.W.E.R, and UPJ and then get back to us.

[MaidinVermont]

228. I'll take dissimulating over ignorant

But if given the respect of self diagnosis I'd choose...

When you say I got a problem that’s a certainty
But I can put it all right down to eccentricity

[laura888]

207. what are you talking about?

please back up your inflammatory statements with names and proof of your allegations.

[MaidinVermont]

214. See CSPAN for the speakers against our soldiers

Charlie Sierra Papa Alpha November - CSPAN

[0007]

249. I watched c-span and enjoyed

what I witnessed. So why to do YOU tell folks to be prepare to be sick?

Sounds like your not into humanity, but just love to criticize, 'eh?

[Democat]

241. Anti-war does not mean anti-American or anti-Israel, and we need strategy

It seems that many of these groups and speakers are more interested in emotions than results.

We need to win an election to make changes, not just yell about every little thing that makes us mad.

The left needs to learn to be tactical.

The right had a public relations problem with the anti abortion movement for a while, where they sort of got out of control and started hurting the cause more than helping it. I wonder if ANSWER is turning into our public relations problem.

[laura888]

244. no - they did a hell of a job organizing the march.

and as someone posted earlier (I'm stealing his phrase) - I and millions of americans are jumping out of our skins because of what's happening to our country!

We go to work every day like good boys and girls, and listen to C-SPAN and gripe on DU.

Today was a day when we could shout our views from the rooftops and possibly be heard. Some things are WORTH shouting about.

[Tinoire]

295. This was anti-war & anti-occupation

If pro-occupation Israel supporters want to organize a rally where they think they can separate the two issues, please suggest AIPAC organize their own separate march where they can continue pushing the propaganda that Israel's occupation is a noble endeavour.

We refuse to separate the two and I was pleased to see the SF rally swarming with activists from Jewish Voice for Peace and Jews for Justice!

Under the current circumstances, anti-war means anti-American government and anti-Israel government. There will be no white-washing here!

[Tinoire]

294. Chalabi supporters?

Good thing Occupation Watch ( www.occupationwatch.org )was there to speak up pre-emptively strike your myth!

Sick. Sleeping with the enemy will destroy what's left of the Democratic Party. Sick

PS. Please capitalize Democratic Party- it is a custom to capitalize the name of your party- unless you intend to insult it, that is.

[John_H]

178. On balance, I guess ANSWER is necessary evil, but let's be honest

with ourselves: The presence of the "other" groups ain't all about the righteousness of their causes. They're allowed to hitch a ride on the bandwagon for two reasons: crowdbuilding and money.

The Death Row Transgendered Workers for the Five Cuban North Koreans don't get their 90 seconds on C-SPAN, they don't bring their people out and they don't write their check.

It's the same as any union, political, and even religeous rally.

[laura888]

196. So the presense of the non "on-message" folks makes the march bad?

I was at the march, and did not find this to be true at all. It was absolutely clear that the reason all were there was because of everyone's outrage over Bush & Co.

[John_H]

266. not at all

I was there too, and you're right, it was clear that the main focus was the war.

Yet the problem with the Cuban Palistinians for the 5 Transexual Native Peruvian Workers is not only that they're not on message.

History tells us that only the mainstream, not the fringe, create major policy shifts. Now, I love the anti-war radicals--they're the soldiers, the movers and shakers who get the balls rolling. But there comes a time when we have to recognize that the mainstream, even though we want to throttle them for their closedmindedness, won't want to be associated with folks that in their view want to close their companies, save "cop killers," love fidel, think they're KKK members, etc.

We can say fuck em', those corn pone assholes, and go about our merry way. But in my view, you ain't gonna beat the folks at Halliburton doing that.

[screembloodymurder]

302. I agree

If you think you should control free speech at a rally, you should be working for Bush.

[okieinpain]

180. it reminded me of the wellstone memorial. good idea, bad

presentation.

[Ardee]

183. Posting from a locked thread

Im taking the liberty of posting this from KoKo who was, I assume, attempting to get a message across by creating a new thread contrary to DU rules.I think it important and equally important is the contradicting the attempt of the vichy dems to create a meme that liberal opinion is rare and unheeded......:

KoKo01 (1000+ posts) Sun Oct-26-03 01:22 AM
Original message
Even though ANSWER/United for Peace may not be all we would want, we have

Edited on Sun Oct-26-03 01:35 AM by KoKo01
to give them credit for giving us "A BIG VOICE" in the "Anti-Iraq Invasion and Occupation" Protests!

"If you Build it--They Will Come!" And "ANSWER/UNITED FOR PEACE" gave us (who couldn't handle getting the permits and organizing on a website) have managed to do this for us.

We may not all like or agree with the "screamers" and "fringe groups" who speak at these Demonstrations, but one has to give them credit for being there when we needed them. Today's "Finge Group," may be Tomorrows Big Movement!

It's not easy to organize these big events. And, one always has to worry about "violence" breaking out. But, they manage, somehow, to do a good job. And while "Free Mumia," and "Free Palestine" screamed at me (hearing it on C-Span) is not my "cup of tea" it still is what I need to listen to....until the "Peace Protests" can organize on their own.

So....we need to be aware that it's the voice we have...and be thankful it has been there for us!

On Edit: Since my posts on this keep getting locked, I keep trying to make my point.

Thanks to those who posted on my other threads who understood what I was getting at. I hope that the Mods will read this post and not say I'm trying to start a anti-thread.

I think we need to thank those who "Invited us to this party." (a paraphrase of Al Sharpton.)

.........only the donkey knows.......


In the absence of the Democratic Party from the war against Bush and all he stands for I welcome the role ANSWER plays in publicising the injustices whatever they are wherever they are found.....I remember distinctly the criticisms of those who protested the Viet Nam war, they are strangely similar to those who object to these current demonstrations.....they were wrong then and they are wrong now!

[bigtree]

184. Start your own movement

It's hard to do what these people do. They work hard. And even if their interests were tangential they showed up to support our cause.

They might not get your vote, but they showed up. That counts.

The World can see from our rally that America is not completely dominated by warmongerers. That in itself is a great achievement.

Thank you to all who stood with us.

[nomaco-10]

185. The rally was a real disappointment

to watch for me as well. Your analysis was right on. The speakers were yelling and had no real message and failed to inspire the crowd as far as I could tell. Raging disidents from all over the world and the tepid voices of the apologists left me disappointed and embarrassed by this gathering. You can't tell me that there aren't some passionate, articulate people that could have been recruited to speak out against the war and resonate a message that could have reached middle America.
I kept thinking, well, shit, Fox News will have a field day with some of these clips. Also, somebody needs to get the word out, you don't have to look and talk like it's 1967 to get the anti-war message out, different decade, different war.

[bigtree]

193. What a load of tripe. Who the hell cares what FOX does?

You would reject people who would support your cause because they don't sound like you or look like you, or say what you want them to say.

That sounds like your group will be a tiny one. And not very interesting.

This anti-war movement is bringing together many diverse groups from all walks of life. We need to listen to the concerns of others in the world. We can learn from their struggles and draw strength from our solidarity.

That is what a movement looks like.

This is what democracy looks like!

[screembloodymurder]

303. That's because 90%

weren't there for the rally. We went to march. The message is in the march.

[laura888]

186. I was at the rally and watching C-SPAN now - the march was GREAT!

...my impression is that the rally was much like DU - many viewpoints - but all rally around their strong beliefs that Bush and Company are committing major crimes.

I did not find the various speakers distracting. It was understood that all had a common cause.

I think we have some naysayers in the crowd who have some agenda against the organizers....

[jiacinto]

187. Good point

But you won't be able to convince certain people here who love to "Blame America First".

[laura888]

191. c'mon on now - we all know your pro-Israel views...

...obviously, you have a problem with ANSWER's concern with the Palestinian cause.

[jiacinto]

197. I've heard that

they are a Marxist group.

And I am proud to be Pro-Israel.

[CivilRightsNow]

208. I have a problem with the Anti-Israel cause being pushed at a US Rally

that was not billed as a Pro Palestinian Rally.

I have a problem with the PollyAnna syndrome that seems to be eroding any hope we have of getting things changed.

I want to say this. I dont think that any of us have a problem with any of the people that got off their ass and went to the rally. I think we are all glad you are doing something. I think what we have a problem with is the dilution of the message by the organizers of the event. So please, keep that in mind as you read the criticism. We arent bitching about the protesters.. we are bitching about the multimessages.

Having said that, I agree that it should be about the marching.. about the people getting out there and showing their collective togetherness. Perhaps the biggest downfall of this protest is that there were way too many speakers. They should have let the voices of the people from the streets and the the signs speak for themselves.

I think that if Answer wants to do this, they should have booths for the fringe elements where they are able to educate and pass out literature. Perhaps even have a series of sit ins at the different booths for those who wanted to attend.. for those who came for that specific message. But like it or not, these events are getting press, I know it isnt much, but it is something. We need to make sure that in that press, the message is not diluted. We need to make sure that the people realize that you can be a patriot, you can question, without hating.. without demonizing. Because I think the majority of this movement does love this country, if they didnt, they wouldnt be out there protesting.. they wouldnt care. We just want to get it back on the right track and freeing Mumia doesnt amount to a hill of beans in comparison.

Im a very liberal person and it made me cringe when I saw all of the fringe elements... because folks, there is a bigger picture here. And those fringe elements are just giving more fuel to the fire of those that want to label us as antiamerican, crazy liberals. I think that is what everyone has to learn to see. Let's take care of big picture and then work on making the rest of the pieces fall into place.

You guys are all correct, they put alot of effort into this and it is essentially their message. They have the right to do whatever they want with it. But Im sorry, the turn out looked rather poor and from those Ive spoke with who were there, they were very disappointed considering the protests we had at the start of the war. If we can organize, if we can appeal to the common denominator with truth and love, then I truly believe that the turn out could be so much better. The news clips wouldnt have anything negative to show to demonize us and maybe, just maybe the message could be heard by more then just the choir.

I truly believe that we need some help to organize an event of that magnatude from some of the folks who were doing in during Vietnam. All of the former sit-in, protest and flower children that I know all say the same thing. That they started with a great message, a great unity.. but in the end, the message became so diluted, there were so many factions fighting for recognition... that it all just unraveled. We need to learn from them.

We also need to learn from society, we need to learn from business. The grassroots movement is, IMHO, doomed to failure unless it can take the best of itself and the tactics of business and power structure and meld that into a cohesive strategy.

Maybe Im way out in left field but, do organizations like this send out mad press releases and letters to:
Arlo Guthrie
Beastie Boys - In a World Gone Mad
Ani Di Franco
Pearl Jam - Bushleaguer
Country Joe Mc Donald
Chumbawamba - Jacob's Ladder
Micheal Franti
Rage Against the Machine
John Cougar Mellencamp
Paula Cole - My Hero, Mr. President
Johnatha Brooke - War
The Compassionate Conservatives
Green Day - Life During War Time
Lenny Kravitz - We want peace
Live - What are we fighting for
Little Big Men
John Kasper - We're the Enemy
Maeran
REM - The final straw
Black Eyed Peas - Where is the Love
Cat Stevens
Saul Williams
Bruce Springsteen
Steven Taylor
Sonic Youth - Youth Against Facism
Mudhoney - hard on for war
Ben Harper - remake of redemption song
Sheryl Crow
Dave Matthews
Bono
Jello Biafra
Dead Presidents
Chuck D
Felonious
Rakim
Jurassic 5
Public Enemy
Talib Kweli
Wyclef Jean
Nas


(Many many more small artists that would love to get some play time at the sites below)

http://www.protest-records.com/mp3/index.html
http://polsong.gcal.ac.uk/songs.html
http://www.daveyd.com/commentarylantiwarsonglist.html

Poets
Amari Baraka
Georgia Mae
Saul Williams
Smokey Robinson - http://www.poetology.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63
Ras Baraka
Suheir Hammad (AMAZING Lady) http://www.flashpoints.net/first.html
Jessica Care Moore
Beau Sia
Julia Butterfly
(There are many more.. Ill have to get the names)

Actors and Actresses
Susan Sarandon
Tim Robbins
Martin Sheen
Robert Redford
Woody Harrelson
Jennifer Anniston
Brad Pitt
George Clooney
Ben Affleck
Sean Penn
Jessica Lange
Janeane Garofalo
Danny Glover
Alec Baldwin
Kate Hudson
Julia Roberts
Richard Gere
George Carlin
Robin Williams
Garrison Keiler
John Stewart

Writers: Al Franken, Micheal Moore, Molly Ivins, Kalle Lassen, Jim Hightower, William R. Pitt, Noam Chomsky, Ariana Huffington, Paul Krugman,David Corn, Sheldon Rampton, Joe Conason, Paul Begala, Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, Hunter S. Thompson (Many more)

There are so many left off of this list. Do they invite craft people and those then sell goods like antiwar tshirts, flags, etc? Do they invite alternative news sources like, MotherJones, TheNation and AdBusters? Do they air movies like Amy Goodman does on Democracy now? Great documentaries that people never have the chance to see or rent? There are so many attractions we could have that would attract such a wider range of people.. why are we wasting it on diluted messages?

Do none of these people respond and that is why we get stuck with FreeMumia folks and various ProPalestine groups? Do the organizers of these events simply not care about getting any additional people to join their causes? They just want to have a get together for all the people that already believe?

Don't get me wrong. I think standing in a group of people with that much love and desire to change things is powerful. But if you've never been there, you have no idea how powerful that consciousness is. I think that is why those that attend arent seeing the importance of the image portrayed to those that didnt attend.. to those that might have been inspired to attend the next one. These protests should be a building process.. a wave building in momentum, not cresting alone on the shore.

There have got to be some people around here that have organized before. Let's get this going. If I've gotta wade out there into the unknown by myself, Ive got no other choice. But I know there is a better answer out there that we can come to from learning from the past.

[laura888]

235. Anyone who reads the basics knows ANSWER's position on Israel

and people came anyway - go figure?

[Tinoire]

297. ANSWER is anti-imperialism, ant-war and anti-occupation

They were protesting against the Israeli occupation of Palestine before this war had even begun and people like me were proud to be associated with them because the themes are common- you can not separate one from the other. If anything, Israel's occupation of Palestine has a LOT to do with this war so it would be a tad bit hypocritical to pretend it didn't.

You are welcome to help organize anti-war marches that do not focus on Israel's brutal occupation and people like me will attend anyway but please do not disparage ANSWER (which I notice with appreciation you tried not to).



Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. - Martin Luther King

[CivilRightsNow]

304. I agree with that cause too. But...

My point is that I see no point in preaching to the choir instead of delivering a FOCUSED and undiluted message that can reach more people.

I understand that palestine and israel have alot to do with this. I understand they are a sympton of our foreign policy. But do you think your average american does? Do you think you average american can even understand that you can be patriotic and not agree with our government actions?

Why do we want to alienate those people by reading them the end of the book before the rest? Let's teach them the tangible basics they can understand first. Why do we want to alienate them by pushing not only that message, but radical versions of that message?

I think ANSWER's causes are worthy. I just dont think that in this scope they are the most useful of the press that they are getting and the people they could be attracting. I also recognize my core issues are very different from theirs and alot of my fringe issues are their core... Im not saying they are wrong in their messages.. just that, I wonder if we could try to save the US, before we save the rest of the world. Because I love this country, I think that it is in peril, regardless of israel and palestine and mumia and the phillipines. And I think that we fall victim to the same PollyAnna syndrome our govt militarizes instead of keeping our focus here at home.

And yes, I do realize these people are Americans. I do not doubt their patriotism. I just feel that dilution just cant be done right now. Your mileage my vary.

[Tinoire]

332. I understand your concern and would agree if we had time

but (and we agree on this) the house is already burning and all of these causes are so related that if you ignore one, only focusing on the most obvious one, then no matter how well you put out the large fire, another one will start raging in another corner and take over. ANSWERS approach is to get people as educated as possible and as quickly as possible.

Half the Europeans have labelled the US & Israel as the biggest threats to World Peace according to a poll requested by the European Commission. You and I both know why this is. The ZOA & ADL's handwringing hysteria to disassociate the I/P conflict from 9-11 and now from the Iraq war has fallen totally flat and they are still going out of their way to minimize the importance of that "unimportant internal squirmish". That unimportant internal squirmish got planes flown into our buildings, gave Bush just what he needed to advance a police state, started 2 wars already where too many innocents are dying and is about to start more. How can we disassociate that these issues from the situation we are now in when they are the cause? How can we ignore homelessness when and joblessness when we protest the billions being wasted on imperialistic expansion? I fear that if we do that, we will never wake people up and I see that reason as the main push to splinter all the issues. The Corporate elite doesn't want people putting this all together... Now that the Iraq War is a done deal, they're perfectly ok with people protesting it- what they don't want is people understanding being so awake that they will derail the coming ones. If their operatives can convince people

1. to stay away from these rallies for fear of Communists (of all the silly reasons)

2. to remain closed to any information they pick up because it's either marxist indoctrination or anti-Semitic

then they will have won totally.

If they can dilute the message enough under the pretense of just focusing on ONE item (Iraq) then they can be sure that once Iraq is no longer news, and people no longer attend, that important information about Palestine, Latin America, Racism, etc will NEVER reach the masses and they know it. That's what this entire effort is about.


That's my take. I understand your point but IMO we don't have the time.

Europe is already way ahead of us on this one again. I'm tired of seeing us so mired in ignorance.

[bpilgrim]

198. there you go again using right-wing propaganda

why do you enable the rw? :shrug:

:hi:

peace

[qanda]

194. Can we please close this thread

And open a new one (with the same title-- part 2) to continue the discussion? I think the voices of those who were actually at the rally should be heard on this subject and it's pretty hard to get a word in edgewise after 190 posts.

[ShaneGR]

200. LOL, I didn't realize this many people would reply

Maybe we can get 400.

[bpilgrim]

202. nice troll

:toast:

peace

[Rex]

203. Really? The MOST bizzare event you have ever witnessed?

You must live in a shell...by the sea... :eyes:

[diamond14]

222. or under a rock.....or in a city sewer pipe.....nt

.

[Pastiche423]

204. Don't get out much, do you?

[Ignoramus]

215. The creeping plague that is stealth republicans

What I'm reading is just so sad and unfortunately typical.

A demonstration is an informal gathering of like minded people. A demonstration demonstrates something instead of going through normal channels. Demonstrations exist because the demonstrators do not feel that conventional channels are adequate to express their concern. A demonstration is not a jointly signed agreement. It is not a planned performance.

The demonstration today in SF was wonderful. I think democracy in action is great. I think those of us who give a shit, feel we have to mobilize. I myself feel like I'm leaping out of my skin regarding the state of the world. How people can be more concerned with issues of political purity than to allow themselves to join with others in opposition, I have a hard time understanding.

Why are there so few people? What has narcotized so many people. Are the media whores that effective?

Probably the stealth republicans and their tendency to cast retarding negativity into anything that might result in actual change, contributes a bias to the culture of liberally minded people.

If the toads here did actually witness a movement that is focused only on "palatable" political issues, I suspect they would become uncomfortable with that and ooze their retardation further right along the left-right straight jacket of their political bias, so that they would then be croaking that we must back off of opposing military aggression or else we'll offend people.

I don't usually agree with every idea that is expressed by people in an informal assembly, and I don't agree or know about all the things that people in ANSWER promote. But, certainly if support for ANSWER would imply that I am lending support to any idea held by any member organization, such support would be more virtuous than supporting the democratic party which using the same implication would mean that I support US hegemony, military aggression, apartheid, torture etc.

Some random things. Yes, screaming into a microphone is annoying. If I speak at a demonstration I will keep that in mind. If you want to boldly go where no equivocator has gone before and help speak at one of these informal gatherings, maybe you will also want to avoid yelling.

I'm also baffled by the complaints about yelling though, because I can not remember a time when demonstrations did not involve people yelling from the podium. Recordings (involving the use of microphones) of earlier presidents had them yelling from the podium. I think this is just normal, if unnecessary, for speakers who are addressing a spontaneous or semi-spontaneous assembly of people. It's not a lecture, it's an address to people in a demonstration.

I frequently get this sense that some bizarre amnesia has come down on people these days. You don't remember demonstrations from earlier in your life? Maybe those vapor trail stories are true... Maybe it's mad cow...

Another explanation for why people might yell is that they are not as jaded as the toads. Slaughter is actually pretty emotional and horrifying for those of us who give a shit.

Another thing, I keep reading people using the term "our troops", in a context which just grates on my nerves, as in "they support the iraqi resistence who are shooting at our troops". I am not a national supremecist, so I can't say "our troops" in a context where it only serves to convey the idea that they are somehow more valuable because they're from this territory.

I don't like american troops getting shot at. I don't like american troops carrying out the occupation of Iraq either. In a situation where american troops are acting as tools of the aggressor, if you endorse the actions of those troops, just because they are from here, you are the worst type of bigot.

Anyway I think I have an answer now for an earlier question. One reason why we suck is because some of us are stealth republicans who introduce disease and decay into our struggle.

[Forkboy]

226. CHA-FUCKIN-CHING!!!!!!

:thumbsup:

[ShaneGR]

231. LOL

Yeah, I'm a stealth Republican. A stealth Republican who has never voted for even one single Republican. A stealth Republican who has volunteered on over ten Democratic campaigns (Currently 9-3 record in Ohio, and soon to be 11-3).

Look, if being a Democract means supporting communist sympathizers from North Korea or Cuba, well, I guess pigs are flying out of my ass.

[diamond14]

255. now, calling us communists...NO, we are PATRIOTIC AMERICANS

seems that you belong with a different group or on a different board, where you could be happier and more people of your opinion would chat with you...

[Neecy]

265. another reality check

seems that you belong with a different group or on a different board, where you could be happier and more people of your opinion would chat with you...

He's a Democrat on a board entitled "DemocraticUnderground". Now, I know that the far left is involved here, which is fine, but it's a little arrogant to tell him that he 'belongs with a different group' when he's simply here posting on what I assume is a board that welcomes Democrats.

It's sad when Democrats are shouted down by people who hate the Democratic party, who vote Green, who scoff at whatever we say or do. Perhaps we do need to find 'another board' where Democrats are actually welcome, and you all can change the title of this one to better reflect your views.

[drdon326]

269. Excellent post.

couldnt have said it any better.

[Neecy]

271. thanks

I'm just getting tired of it. If you're a Democrat, you're called a 'sick fucker', accused of 'decay', being a 'stealth Republican', playing 'the race card' contributing to genocide and 'filtering' it out. And this is just a sample of the atrocities we've been accused of in this thread.

This is just going way off the bullshit meter. I'm tired of the smug moral superiority because I don't support freeing a cop killer and I don't subscribe to socialist or Marxist theory. If this disqualified me from participating on a board that used to be comprised of a core of Democrats (many, I'm sure, who have been chased off by these bully tactics) then perhaps this board needs a new title, because the one it has now is sure as hell misleading.

[diamond14]

275. "communist sympathizers from North Korea or Cuba" is inflammatory

insults to REAL Americans who do STAND UP with OUR military families...


...IMO there are people here who belong elsewhere...this thread STINKS of racism, bigotry, and hatred for America and American values...

[drdon326]

Where do you see ......

"racism and bigotry"??

[Neecy]

278. uh-huh

When all else fails, some here play the trump card of 'racism and bigotry'. Just more of the same tactic that's been deployed throughout this thread.

[WoodrowFan]

316. HEAR HEAR

The far left has never been democratic (small 'd') despite all their protests about "equality" and "human rights." They are no better than the freepers who spout "American Right or Wrong."

Oh, and I have voted for a repub exactly ONCE in 25+ years, a local city auditor in a small college town (Athens Ohio) who was so much better qualified than the Democrat that even the local lefty-alternative paper endorsed him! That's IT. No other repub, not ronnie, not shrub sr or jr, not for Congress, Senate, Governor, Judge, state rep, state senator, mayor, city council, school board or even dog catcher. If I'ma stealth repub than so is 90% of the Democratic Party.

[Neecy]

264. I wanna hear more...

Mr. Stealth Republican who works to elect Democrats, about the 'disease and decay' you inject into the 'system'.

Fellow Stealth Republican here, who has worked to elect Barbara Boxer, another 'stealth Republican' who oddly enough votes against Republicans the vast majority of the time. She obviously needs to get with the 'stealth' program! And I spent the better part of a year working in the Dukakis campaign, another 'stealth Republican' who thought the card carrying-member of the ACLU smear was just a screamin' laughfest! Imagine a 'stealth Republican' belonging to the ACLU! I'm still gigglin' over that one.

I won't even go into the other 'stealth' Republicans I've campaigned and worked for, because we all know they're a sneaky way for us to advance the Republican agenda and we don't want to tip our hands too much.

[drdon326]

270. Really.....

if your not to the left of karl marx or joseph stalin,
the obviously youre a stealth republican.

[laura888]

234. EXCELLENT POST - ca-ching

One of your gems that I agree with whole-heartedly:

"I think those of us who give a shit, feel we have to mobilize. I myself feel like I'm leaping out of my skin regarding the state of the world. How people can be more concerned with issues of political purity than to allow themselves to join with others in opposition, I have a hard time understanding."

[Yupster]

218. Bush hopes to win the next election in

Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. They are all states he just barely lost to Gore.

When you look at a protest like this, ask how people having dinner in those three states are understanding things from seeing the protest on tv, or more likely, seeing a 30 second news report about it on tv.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

250. Exactly......

Do we want to vent or do we want to win?


It was rallies like yesterday that created the atmosphere where Nixon was elected and reelected....


As John Lennon said....

".... When you go carrying picture of Chairman Mao you ain't going to make it with anybody anyhow...."

[Shigley]

220. Of course it was dumb

Yeah, ANSWER is screwed up. I may be a lefty, but I'm not an idiot, and they are.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

223. Then again

You may not be.

In any case, I'm glad you were able to straighten this out for all of us after we floundered for 200-someodd posts. You were a real light in the darkness.

[laura888]

233. It was not dumb. I heard 50,000 people were there.

I was there and it was a very powerful event. I watched it on C-SPAN and the cameras captured the thousands of masses of people from every friggin demographic group.

If ANSWER was able to provide C-SPAN with these typs of shots - well I'd say they were extremely successful.

[diamond14]

224. "This DC rally is the most exciting event I have ever witnessed"

and if there are DUers who were too damb lazy to GET UP OFF THE COUCH and come to one of the rally's...and STAND WITH OUR SOLDIERS...and walk with OUR military...then IMO, those who are too lazy to participate ought to shut up and thank those who did...

I was very very honored to walk for a while in the DC March, with an 84 year old man from Ohio, slowly moving along with his walker, a WWII prisoner-of-war survivor...and I don't consider that soldier to be radical or anything other than mainstream America...and if that's not good enough for all you lazy people here, who sit on your duffs and criticize others without even reading about the March or participating....then I guess nobody can please you ever...

[laura888]

232. Excellent post - "Our soliders" and "our military"

Those in this forum should stop bashing "our troops."

[jonnyblitz]

236. WOW..i just got back and I cant believe the whiney comments

on this thread. I met some outstanding DUers for the first time today and it looks like I am glad the ones that have posted on this thread stayed the hell home. :puke:

[lebkuchen]

248. Nice photos

I love the visual effect of the protests.

[Democat]

243. Anti-war does not mean anti-American or anti-Israel, and we need strategy

It seems that many of these groups and speakers are more interested in emotions than results.

We need to win an election to make changes, not just yell about every little thing that makes us mad.

The left needs to learn to be tactical.

The right had a public relations problem with the anti abortion movement for a while, where they sort of got out of control and started hurting the cause more than helping it. I wonder if ANSWER is turning into our public relations problem.

Sorry for the double post. I replied to another poster accidentally.

[laura888]

245. No - they did a helluva job organizing the event - you should be proud

I and millions of americans are jumping out of our skins because of what's happening to our country! (thanks to another poster for the excellent phrase I'm stealing here)

We go to work every day like good boys and girls, and listen to C-SPAN and gripe on DU.

Today was a day when we could shout our views from the rooftops and possibly be heard. Some things are WORTH shouting about.

[Malva Zebrina]

246. well

this is an interesting thread--I see name calling Du'ers, I see thread nannies,I see those who would misrepresent what another has posted, then after making them appear to be some sort of a monster with the misrepresented quote, follow with the tch tch, you should be ashamed mantra , simply because someone has an opinion!!! and that opinion does not fit in with the regulars here or with others who are full of adrenalin after marching in Washington--!! - what is going on?

I don't speak for others, but I for one am not an automatic joiner that would jump on the bandwagon for the sake of being in with the crowd--any crowd. It seems to me, after reading the thread, there is some kind of a disconnect between the perception of the C-Span depiction for those who watched the march on TV and those who attended in person. I think that is at the bottom of this whole controversy. Could it be that those who were there in person, missed what was going on on the stage? Could it be that those who saw only the TV presentation, missed the benefits of the comaraderie necessary to get a strong movement going?

[laura888]

247. Many did not attend because of ANSWER's position on Israel

Some here are bashing the event because they want to discredit the organization for that reason alone.

[Q]

251. The bottom line...

...is that the world is better off because of this protest/rally.

- I detect a hint of bigotry on this thread...as though the problems of 'brown' people aren't as important as that of White Americans. That Americans shouldn't be interested or bothered that our country is ravaging and exploiting every third world country on the face of this planet...simply because we can.

- The 'extremists' on that stage represent the oppressed, the forgotten and the anger that's formenting in this world. It's a shame that some of you can't understand that...or think that they're plight has nothing to do with the Bush* Doctrine or America.

[Malva Zebrina]

253. You are making assumptions not in evidence

everything is not that black and white. Some persons, who are progressives and liberals and who are against the Bush pre-emptive attack, have not made any decision on those other issues--such as the Mumia, or the Palestine issue. Perhaps they chose not to agree with you that these are repressed people until they have a chance to review the facts--some do not blindly follow until they can check it out. This rally, however, in combining it's agendas, forces attending protestors to tacitly approve of the entire thing--and the notion that they should be grateful fot it, is absurd. I agree that parts of the protest were directed against the occupation of Iraq, but at times it appeared to me that ANSWER was taking advantage of the huge crowd to have it appear as if all of those people were pro-palestinian and all wanted to free Mumia, and the other leftists movements the speakers advocated in other countries. Many who would protests against Bush, simply do not know if they want to be included in the others, for one reason or another, none of which anyone has a right to make a judgement . I am leery of propaganda--leftist as well as right wing--there are others like myself who are not Republican-- they are not socialist, communist, or any other "ist"-- using the race card against these many sincere progressives diminishes your intelligence--I don't think it needs to go there.

[laura888]

257. I disagree - the race card is a factor here, somewhat....

many of the posters complaining here say that "middle america watching on CSPAN" would not be able to relate to the speakers at the event.

Could it be, perhaps, that part of that is because many of the speakers were black? (maybe)?

[diamond14]

260. most of the dead soldiers are WHITE...these are middle Americans (pics)

it has been so different than Vietnam, where BLACK soldiers were killed in higher numbers....but in Iraq...there are mostly WHITE National Guard and Reserves being killed...this time, OUR Black soldiers, are in the USA, and NOT in Iraq....IMO, there will come a time when middle-America will explode in rage too...that time may already here....and in an interesting role-reversal...BLACK people and their leaders were there to bring home the mostly WHITE troops in Iraq....



open your eyes and LOOK...this is middle America !!!

[Melinda]

280. Do you have supporting data? Black deaths in this war are @20%

vs. 10% in the Vietnam war. Most of those who died in Vietnam were white too - not black. This article seems to undermine your assertion that there are less black deaths in Iraq than there were in Vietnam:

Nearly a fifth of the fatalities among U.S. troops in the current war in Iraq are black, which will be the highest cost African Americans have paid in any of America's wars if the trend continues.
There are also indications that Hispanics may be over-represented among the war dead, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study.

This isn't the result of minorities being assigned to dangerous duty in front-line units. Elite combat troops like Special Forces units and the Green Berets are disproportionately white, military experts said. The U.S. Army's dash to Baghdad forced supply convoys occasionally to traverse enemy-held territory in southern and central Iraq, leaving minority troops assigned to logistical units vulnerable.

The study found the race of 19.4 percent of all fatalities in which race was able to be determined was black. African Americans represent 13 percent of the U.S. population and 20 percent of all military personnel.


http://www.redding.com/hold/20030411hold076.shtml

Death as a result of war seems to currently be much higher proportionally among African-Americans today then they were during the entire Vietnam war. Unless the stats are available from the first months of the Vietnam war, it would seem impossible to actually compare the two events in terms of which "race" died in greater numbers during that tragic fucking "war".

Any idea what proportion of the US is caucasian?

I wish I didn't feel a need to address this issue at all... why is the race card being raised again?
Oh yeah -- bizarre rally, needs must understand why. :shrug:

[Q]

261. My mistake...wasn't responding to you...but the board in general...

- But...I saw no indication that anyone was forcing you or anyone else to accept the rally in it's entirety. That's just silly. It's like saying you have to agree with every candidate who shows up for a debate.

- Some of you have taken a few issues on which you disagree and have used them to trash the entire rally. They can't agree to disagree and leave it at that...they've convinced themselves they see commie conspiracies and radicals and brown people jumping up and down.

- What I see on this board is a trend towards conservatism. There are fewer 'progressives' on this board than you may think. Some people don't know what the word means...and have co-opted the ideology only to water it down until it becomes indistinquishable from conservatism.

- They are the same people who refuse to accept the obvious reality that the 2000 election was actually a coup. The same ones who belittle us when we refuse to 'move on' about 9-11 or act reluctant to participate in the bipartisan date rape going on in DC.

- BushCo is literally destoying Ameirica...and everything WE have worked for decades to build for ALL Americans. I realize that some of you would prefer a white bread rally where you wave flags and eat apple pie...but it's beyond all that now. The Bushies have won and now have full control of our government and the American media. Democrats have been cowed and hide in the shadows...lashing out at those brave enough to speak out in no uncertain terms.

- America has become the scourge of the earth under GWB* and gang. We buy cheap products made by children and slave workers in other countries...but we don't want to concern our little brains about where this stuff comes from. The exploited hold rallies and join with concerned Americans to fight against the Bush* regime...and all some of you can do is criticize instead of listening to them.

- Some who call themselves 'progressives' are little more than fence-sitters...waiting to see which way the wind will blow. They should save the Left the grief and join the other side where they'll feel more comfortable.

[diamond14]

254. there were banners in Hebrew...there were Rabbis....there were

many many religious people of all faiths at the March, there were also people of many nationalities...at that March were AMERICANS....if someone would not come because of their religion or their background....then that's their problem...it is not the problem of the BRAVE Americans that stood up to BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW !!!

[CivilRightsNow]

301. You are one smart enchilada :)

I think that about sums it up.

[gristy]

267. This thread is long

I was there. Just returned to Boston after taking the overnight Amtrak Federal from Union Station.

The screaming speakers were terrible. Until Ramsey Clark spoke, I didn't listen and preferred to walk around behind the stage along Constitution Ave. So did many thousands of others. Clark's speach was excellent and far too short.

About 20-40 RW'ers showed up with these HUGE signs. They amassed a block away and then marched up into the group behind the stage. Tensions rose until ANSWER security pulled off a very impressive move. They had "deputized" a lot of people and put them in reflective vests. Well about 30-40 deputies surrounded the RW'ers, 2 rows deep and shoulder to shoulder, and then proceeded to shout and "guide" them across the street, where the police then took over the job of keeping them seperate from the rally. This defused the whole situation.

The NY Times estimated the crowd at 10,000. They said they measured the number of people who crossed a mark (300-400) on the march in a minute, and then multiplied that number by the time it took everyone to cross that mark (30 minutes).

[ShaneGR]

268. Good eyewitness account...

If the media says 10,000, and the organizers say 100,000.... I would say it's probably 25,000.

[qanda]

272. If you didn't listen then how do you know what was being said?

I got a lot out of what I heard. Anyway, I think some of the perception about screaming is very cultural in nature. I am Black and my mother is the Pastor of a Pentecostal church. We grew up with the same type of fired-up speaking in church. The majority of speakers did not scream, but were passionate about what they were saying. Anyway, I enjoyed my experience at the rally. I'm sorry your experience wasn't so good.

[gristy]

274. I said the screaming speakers were terrible.

I could have been more clear by saying that I thought the screaming speakers were terrible because they were screaming. So I didn't listen to them for the most part. I enjoyed the rally and march very much, thank you.

Crowds were great.
Lots of good lookin' ladies.
Beautiful day.
Ramsey Clark.
Goo Goo Dolls Fans For Peace.

Interesting sidenote: DC police drive everywhere with their lights and sirens on. They don't know how to stop for a red light. Very curious.

[diamond14]

273. DC Police Chief Ramsey said there were 50,000....(link)

-snip-

Ramsey estimated that the event drew 40,000 to 50,000 people.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17636-2003Oct25.html

[gristy]

276. That's a nice article in the Post

Here' the link to the NY Times article Protesters in Washington Demand Iraq Withdrawal

<snip>
Organizers in Washington said that 100,000 people took part in the rally. But a close inspection put the number who marched past the White House at about 10,000 to 15,000 people, with about 200 to 300 demonstrators a minute passing an observation point during the march's half-hour peak.

I've got half a mind to get some friends and count the crowd myself next time. It's just horrendous that you have the Times estimating 10K, the Post estimating 40K-50K, and organizers estimating 100K. At least the Times summarized their methodology in their article. I have a method (similar to the Times but with additional features and safeguards) which should give a very, very accurate count. But it takes about ten people.

[noiretextatique]

279. most americans are too lazy to get off their asses

to even bother watching the news accounts. i think you and the others who find these rallies, replete with screaming 'foreign born speakers' "bizarre" should organize a nice, moderate counter-rally (like the freepers do) with nothing but white, "american-born" speakers (who don't scream). i'm sure it will be a BIG success.

[jonnyblitz]

298. good post!!!

I agree. Let them have their own little DLC rally!! What a friggen milquetoast yawner that would be!!

[GOPBasher]

281. You're right, and this is not good for our image.

Like another poster said, "I'm a Dem, not a US-basher." I don't like the fact that reasonable people who are against the Iraq War (such as myself) now have the image of being among the radicals who oppose every single thing the US has ever done. It pisses me off, and it hurts our party.

[Scott Lee]

283. Are you a military hegemonist?

It's interesting that you equate aggressive, imperialistic US policy with being "pro-American". Do you want to take another crack at that, or is that what you meant to say?

[Melinda]

285. Oh, well stated!! And a belated welcome to DU from me to you!!

:hi:

[Scott Lee]

327. Thank you, Melinda

cheers

[GOPBasher]

287. Did you read my post?

I've been against the Iraq War from the time of Bush first hints that he was hell-bent on bombing Baghdad. However, I don't think that every single thing that the US has ever done is evil, like some of the people at the rally. And the point is, the organizers of the rally should be honest about ALL of the things they're protesting, not just some of them. I'm sure that tons of the people at this rally wanted only to protest the Iraq War and the Patriot Act, not the other 50 things they spoke out against. Thus, the organizers exploited the presence of these people for other causes. That's not right.

[jonnyblitz]

296. I dont think so. I was there I and I think you highly exaggerate

how much these "other" themes were emphasized. You people need to realize this wasnt a DLC event and the two main groups sponsoring the event I am sure think the Democratic Party is as much part of the problem as the current administration and I agree...

[laura888]

306. yes - that's right. I was there, too, and I agree...

...the non- "on-message" folks were definitely NOT a distraction from the main central message of BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.

This message was repeated over and over, over the microphone, on signs, in chants, in shouts, in poems, etc. etc.

It was far from being lost.

[Scott Lee]

328. I certainly did read your post. So I ask again...

Are you pro-hegemonist?

I'm not intentionally being beligerent, but trying to get you and others to see that the sick ideologogical tenets behind the Iraq War are the real problem; the current "war" only being the latest outbreak of the disease.

When do we go after the virus itself?

When do we check our own attitudes on military actions, especially interventions?

When do we reassess our place in the world, and our relationship with other peoples and cultures, in order to retool it as a cooperative relationship among equals rather than a paternalistic, bigotted, supremist, racist high handedness?

You cannot cure the disease by putting non stick tape over the atrophying wounds.

[G_j]

282. well thanks

to many of you for making me feel completely hopeless. I can't believe there are folks here who even have a problem with puppets!
One thing that has always been a distiction between the RW drones and the left is a joy-like, celebratory quality reflected in diversity and color.
So now ABB dictates we need to match the drab colorless qualities of the dittos? I've protested in DC since the Viet Nam days and there was ALWAYS a colorful, radical alternative quality to the crowds.
Now we are supposed to give that up to? I ask you how long will it be before there is no distinction?

[Tinoire]

309. Does it surprise u that the Centrists & Conservative Dems are saying this?

That is their entire platform isn't it? Diluting the message of the Left, weeding out all our "fringe" causes of liberty and justice for all, and not scaring the Freeper neighbours horses so that the neighbours can enjoy their afternoon nap while the rest of the world is oppressed by that napping class.

Well you know what G-j? WAKE THEM UP I'll be damned if I'm going to be quiet and let the Centrists usurp and dilute yet another movement!

I'm fighting to take my party back from them and part of that fight is being accomplished at those ANSWER same anti-war, anti-Imperialism & anti-occupation marches with the other proud "Leftist retards".

I shall no longer compromise to their ridiculous plantation sensibilities while people are dying and being oppressed!

What an arrogant attitude. No surprise though- it's the same attitude that says we can not afford to elect a real progressive because the "swing voters won't like it.

To hell with the swing voters and the horse they're trying to ride in on!

[WoodrowFan]

315. A Thank You Note from Karl Rove

Your note is EXACTLY what he wants to hear.

[G_j]

326. apt reply

I was unable to get back on this thread after my post because it's just sooo long. Now that I'm on a different computer I can reply.
What strikes me, though nobody would dare say it, is that middle America (or who ever we are supposed to be impressing) have a problem with non-whites also. Take the argument to it's logical extreme and we'd make sure our rallies were all white also.

I'll also be damned if I'll stand down either. You know they made a big deal about SDS and other organizers of the Viet Nam protests, I suppose we should have not attended those either. :shrug:

[Ksec]

299. I saw it and it was an embarassment

Please. It looked like a freak show.

[demgrrrll]

308. When I read the C-Span was going to cover the event I felt that

it probably would be covered poorly and with their usual bias.
I didn't think the coverage would be fair. The people who actually attended and participated in the protest seem to have a very different feeling about what transpired than the people who watched the protest on television. Do you remember watching the protest on C-span when Bush was installed? They turned down the sound and did not really report on what was going on. The network news was even worse, making inane comments and ignoring a major groundbreaking event. That was the initial disconnect between the media reporting on protests of any sort and I do not think anything has changed,in fact I think things have become worse. Why would anyone expect the media to give a fair representation of anyone who protests against this regime?
Thanks to all of you who took the time from your undoubtedly busy lives to travel great distances to take a stand against fascism.
Thanks from the bottom of my heart.

[jiacinto]

330. It was more than embarassing

It was downright offensive.

[screembloodymurder]

313. Democracy is bizarre by definition.

If you want conformity, if you seek control, censorship, militaristic regimentation then go to a Bush rally.

[bread_and_roses]

322. I am with you

and Ardee on this one. What makes anyone here think that ANSWER is answering to a mainstream Democratic Party agenda? And I am appalled at the contempt and disregard for a black man on death row on a conviction about which there are serious questions. So it's OK to sacrifice justice to win the Presidency for the Democrats? I am not a Democrat, I make that plain, but I am working right now for Democrats in local elections and will work for the Democrat candidates in next year's election, but without illusions. There is global rage at the US right now, and the more that Americans are informed of it, the better. I do not for a moment believe that ordinary Americans support the death and destruction our policies and politicians support around the world. The international peace and justice movement owes no dues to the American Democratic Party and does not march to its' tune, nor should it.

[ShaneGR]

317. OMG, this thread is BACK

I had no idea it would end up being such a hotly debated issue. 300 some posts.

Anyways, I was very happy to see the mainstream press didn't do any reporting on the fringe speakers, and instead seemed to focus on the marchers.

[bpilgrim]

325. so how out of touch some are...

just like the establishment :hi:

peace

[Loonman]

324. Hmmm. I can't support that

Supporting Iraqi resistance fighters?

I don't like commies, either.

I oppose the Republicans, but we could keep better company than this.

[jiacinto]

329. Did they unlock this thread?

nt

[ShaneGR]

331. This thread was locked?