My friend quit her church this week (again)

[bluestateguy]

A few months ago I reported here about a freind of mine who quit her church in frustration because the pastor would say at the pulpit that George W. Bush was chosen by God for the presidency, that Islam was a religion of false promises, and that the war in Iraq was an opportunity for Christians to convert Muslims in Iraq. She quit that church and joined one she thought was more moderate and non-political, but as she told me when we talked today, here hopes were dashed. The pastor had a thing for denouncing Islam as "satatnic", "evil" and "pagan". According to her, in private conversations this guy often said that Muslims would "burn in hell" if they did not convert to Christianity. People need to know that this kind of stuff is going on inside fundamentalist churches all across America.

[Liberal Veteran]

1. Does she let the church know why she quit?

She should. She should tell the pastor to his face that she goes to church to worship God, not listen to a tirade against people of other faith.

[Maddy McCall]

6. If it is a church with an advisory board like deacons...

she needs to address them too, and tell them why she quit. Deacons don't like pastors running members away from the church...tends to decrease the amount that they see in the offering plate on Sunday morning.

[loudnclear]

11. Our very on madras...

We won't face up to what is being said in our own churches and synygoges
and religious schools. But it is every bit as hateful as what we say the Muslims say in their mosques and schools.

[izzie]

25. These people should state reason and then leave.

If nothing else it will make some of the others think if the fundamentals can think.Most seem to be like drunks holding on to an empty dream.They are Bush's base so this blind believe, they are right about everything, makes reason hard.

[karlschneider]

2. Most people do know. They fall into various categories:

1. Fundies and other knuckle-draggers, who agree.
2. Moderates of various religions who don't particularly care.
3. Progressives/liberals who realize they cannot educate morons.

There may be others, I am in # 3.

[Clete]

3. Why is she joining fundamental churches?

There are plenty of good Christian denominations out there that actually preach Christian values, like loving your neighbor, helping the poor, rendering to Caesar what is Caesar' and to God, what is God's (church and politics should never mix). You should steer her over to the Liberals Like Christ website.

[Maddy McCall]

7. In my opinion, the hatred towards Catholics that is preached there

and by that website's creator is as bad as the hatred toward Muslims being preached in the fundy church mentioned in the thread-starting post.

[Clete]

8. Are you talking about Liberals like Christ?

I didn't see any Catholic hatred? Of course I didn't look that close either as I'm not particularly interested in Christianity.

[Maddy McCall]

9. Can you search this website's archives and look at some old threads

in which that website's creator has venomously attacked the Catholic Church?

Yes, he has a vindictive hatred of all things Catholic and is never too bashful to expound on it.

BTW, I am not Catholic, but have felt the hairs rise on the back of my neck as I feel defensive of my DU brothers and sisters when their religion is being attacked by him.

edited: misspelled word

[Clete]

10. Okay, I'll look again.

[Maddy McCall]

16. Here are some DU archived threads:

"Jesus was an anti-clerical bigot who hated Jews"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=504697

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=198248#200225

"How will Catholics respond if their hierarchy denounces Kucinich ?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=203963


"Why I'm an "anti-Catholic bigot""
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=189789

"Secret 40 yr. old Vatican pedophilia document REVEALED"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=135999

And this all came from a very brief search.

[Clete]

18. Truthfully as an ex-Catholic myself

I don't think there should be any sacred cows above criticism. I think the poster was pointing out what is corrupt about the Church, but calling it a hatred like the fundies who applaud the death of Matthew Shepherd, who was tortured and killed because he was gay, isn't what this poster is saying.

I think a lot of his rants are more due to a lack of writing skills than hatred of the Church.

[Maddy McCall]

23. Smells like hatred to me...

and he is an admitted Catholic-hating bigot. That's enough information for me to decide that, if the guy is brave enough to label himself such, I don't have to do it for him.

To each his own, but I would never recommend his site to someone who is having difficulties with her own church. I can't see how a website grounded in anti-catholicism will help someone who is considering leaving a protestant church.

[Clete]

24. Well, I think his idea of what Christ really stands for

is valid. Since this woman obviously is a Christ worshipper, she really needs to go to a congregation that preaches true Christian values. I also meant to say that I didn't think he hated Catholics but the corruption of the Church and much of it is very politically corrupt.

[Maddy McCall]

26. I didn't realize he had a patent on that...

The Sermon on the Mount has always been interpreted as a liberal statement.

But, anyway, as I said before, to each his own. I can't stand his inflammatory thread starters, which he does purposefully, to get as many people's attention to direct them to his website. He does this at the expense of others. And while he, and many others--he by no means has a novel take on this--, perceive christ as a liberal, it would behoove him to be a little more "christ-like" in some of his PERSONAL attacks on other DUers.

JMO...and by the way, I love your signature and Xena photo.

[blondeatlast]

31. You can search his posts here to find the same vitriol.

[Clete]

32. You guys I really don't want to because I don't care.

If I made a mistake recommending the site I am sure the lady in question will figure that out for herself from these posts. She seems to have her head screwed on right by questioning the two churches she has quit.

[leesa]

20. They hate everyone who is not themselves.

Sick people.

[janekat]

27. Yes - they think that Catholics are akin to devil worshippers - LOL!

[Clete]

34. Well, I could tell you a thing or two about how the

Church operates, but I won't because this isn't the place for it. No, and they don't worship the devil.

[Maddy McCall]

35. Well, then, it appears blatantly obvious why you are such an avid

supporter of the Rev. No more needs to be said.

[Clete]

37. Did I say I was an avid supporter of the Rev?

I never did and don't put those words in my mouth. I am an avid admirer of the Dalai Lama, but I would no more join his religion than the Revs. However, I will repeat again what I said. I don't give a fuck about Christianity or 99% of the religions that pollute our civilization.

I can relate to the Christian woman wanting to find a Church which is closer to her conscience and beliefs than the ones she has been attending. I only suggested the website because it seems a little more "Christian" than many, although I don't recommend it as the end all and be all. Personally there are many other sites, non-Christian and not even connected to any religious institutions that have more spirituality in them than any of the Christian sites.

[blondeatlast]

29. Amen to that!

[mlawson]

4. It sounds like she is sticking to the same denomination.

And one church in it is the same as the others. I suspect I know which one it is, too.

If she wants to ENSURE that a church will not bash other religions, and support bush, there is always the Universalist Unitarian Church.

[Ilsa]

5. I think she should warn him

(facetiously speaking) of the possiblility that they could lose their tax exempt status if the pastor continues on his political endorsements and tirades.

Our local newspaper has a Saturday Sermon column every week. Occasionally it is the turn of the Imam. There are always a few letters to the editor the following week trying to "set the record straight" about whose religion has the "real God" and how to get to heaven.

Fundies. Can't live with 'em. Can't burn them at the stake.

[mhr]

15. When The Revolution Comes, Roasted Fundies Will Be Choice Quisine

A nation divided cannot stand long. The schism in America will be the fall of America.

The corporate interests will not back down.
Consequently,
The media interests will not back down,
The political interests will not back down,
The right wing fundies will not back down.

Pretty soon the left wing will no longer tolerate political subjugation, and will not back down either!

We are heading toward a cliff of social, political, and economic collapse.

This truth is observable by all.

One would wish it were not this way, yet one sees this inevitability clearly.

[Gman]

28. Unfortunately, I think you're right on the money

I also see no other way. It won't happen in our lifetimes. But I think in 100 years, this country may not exist.

[TrogL]

12. Time to switch denominations

and give up fundamentalism, evangalism and literalism.

Give Episcopalean a shot.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. She needs to join one of the following denominations:

1. ELCA Lutheran (not Missouri or Wisconsin Synod, which are located all over the country)
2. Episcopal
3. United Church of Christ
4. United Methodist
5. American (NOT Southern) Baptist
6. Unitarian-Universalist (although it sounds as if they might be too non-Christian for her)

There may be others, but these are the liberal churches that come to mind.

There's no reason to remain loyal to a denomination that offends you.

NOTE: She may meet this suggestion by saying that she wants to belong to a "Bible believing" church. You need to cure her of this meme by explaining that denominations 1-5 also believe in the Bible, but not literally.

If she is insistent, suggest the Mennonites, who are fundamentalists with a social conscience.

[Clete]

14. My favorite if I needed to worship a Christian God

are the Quakers or Friends. They are peacekeepers, not racist and not sexist. They also are kind to animals.

[greekspeak]

17. Take care on the United Methodist Church

The congregations and ministers vary widely in their beliefs. Some United Methodist congregations are very open and accepting, some, like the one in which I was raised, are very conservative and preach hellfire and damnation. NOTE...I am not dissing this denomination; I am speaking as a former Methodist from experience with the congregation.

[Clete]

19. A methodist friend of mine told me they were

against dancing, too. :shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Not all of them

There are many kinds of Methodists. The United Methodists are usually okay.

But seriously, if she is sick of the pastor making partisan political statements like that from the pulpit, she should sic the IRS on them, since tax-exempt organizations are not allowed to make partisan political statements.

I have heard Lutheran and Episcopal clergy talk about issues in general terms, such as we should not discriminate, we should honor the earth, we should help those in need, that we should seek peaceful means of resolving conflict, etc. I have NEVER heard any of them say that any particular leader was anointed by God or that God belongs to any particular party.

[greekspeak]

22. Good luck with that

Its a new day in America, with new rules and new kinds of enforcement of the law. I'd say you'd get laughted at if you reported this behavior to the government.

What is really sad about this is that these ministers are using people's true faith in God and exploiting it to support an unholy alliance between big business and conservative Christianity. Teaching people to hate non-Christians. I am sure that Jesus would love that.

Funny too how these kinds of ministers and Christians are the first to persecute and also the first to scream that they are being persecuted. Often they are persecuting at the same time they are crying persecution.

[janekat]

30. Yes - the mennonites or quakers are probably perfect for her

she should stay away from those fundamentalist and reformed churches.

[Clete]

33. Why are you equating mennonites with Quakers?

As a matter of fact many of our DU'ers are Quakers and they are very liberal. They march in protests and they work on liberal candidates campaigns. Mennonites want nothing to do with government from what I can see so I don't know why you are comparing them. I know that Richard Nixon was raised a Quaker and evidentally the teaching didn't stick with him, but the practicing Quakers don't preach the hatred the fundies do.

[janekat]

41. Thought the mennonites and quakers were kind of similar

I'm admittedly no expert. I knew someone who had belonged to both churches. She was sort of a "hippy" but at the same time was pretty religious.

[Clete]

42. Mennonites keep women in their place. Quakers treat women

as equals. Anyone male or female can conduct a meeting.

[TreasonousBastard]

47. Quakers, Mennonites, and Church of the Brethren...

are the three Historic Peace Churches, but are not the same in their theology or practices. Mennonites and Brethren are often associated with the Amish, but many are most definitely not Amish.

Quakers do not fall into any category, actually. We have no dogma or required beliefs, although we are generally considered Christian, and most of us have at least some traditional Christian beliefs. Almost all of us try to have what would be considered as the "better" Christian values in our lives and actions. We have been pretty much barred from from the Council of Churches because we refuse to put on paper all that stuff about Jesus as the Son of God and the only way to salvation.

I worry a little about getting a reputation for evangelizing about Quakers, but it is something that a lot of people might consider looking into. Many people are looking for some sort of spiritual community or experience, but can't put up with the traditional religions and their rules and dogma. Quakerism isn't immune to rules and dogma, but many, if not most, meetings pretty much let you find your own way. The unprogrammed silent worship of most FGC meetings has no liturgy or clergy, and is more of a group meditation. Quakerism is far more concerned with living the present life, and worries little about defining God or what roads lead to hell.

We are growing, albeit not all that fast, and many people, like myself, have found the RSOF to fill a particular spiritual void without the aggravation of being preached at or told why we are going to hell.


http://www.mennoniteusa.org/

http://www.mcc.org/
is a Mennonite service organization, which might be of interest

http://www.brethren.org/

http://www.quaker.org

http://www.quakerfinder.org
plug in your state or zip code, and find a Quaker meetinghouse near you.

http://www.afsc.org
is the primary Quaker service organization.

http://www.fcnl.org
is the Quaker lobbying and legislative organization

[Clark Can WIN]

36. Sometimes it goes on in non-fundie churces too

Our church secretary recently used her access to the church email list (which is meant only for prayer and praise requests) to spread this

http://www.foxyworks.com/ACLU-Crosses.htm Which if you go looking you run into sites like this:

http://www.americasvoices.org/archives2003/SeeseD/SeeseD_022803.htm

" Spit in the face of the scum that joins the communist/leftist American "Civil" (read Criminal) Liberties Union and its support of the murder of the unborn, the pampering of criminals, endless frivolous lawsuits to support deviant sexual behavior, the teaching of sex education in all its deviant forms to school children, its support of teaching Islam in California schools while fighting to keep a Bible off the premises of any public building, and the diehard persecution of Christians. These sleazes would burn the portrait of Washington praying at Valley Forge and replace it with a vision of Lenin's statism.

The ACLU is filled with lawyers, who for the most part are an evil, warped, egotistical bunch of communists and socialists, blathering nitwits, anti-Americans who want to bring down everything for which our fighting men died, and to whom those crosses symbolize the American Christian heritage of Bible freedom. The ACLU members cannot tolerate the Bible, the Cross or Jesus Christ ... and they certainly hate, en masse, His followers. "



and this from a no thunder, no lightning quiet little UMC. I blame her more than the church, and she's not our minister but it was still offensive and I let her know it. Didn't get a response.

[Maddy McCall]

38. That church secretary should be FIRED

for using a church email list to spread her PERSONAL POLITICAL views. IF your pastor has anything that resembles a backbone, he should admonish her publicly and make her email an apology to everyone to whom she originally emailed that. I am astonished that she is getting away with it!

[Maddy McCall]

39. And, I forgot to say that I hope you copied that email that you sent her

to the minister, too. He needs to be informed of this, and he also needs to get feedback from members who signed an email list to stay informed of CHURCH events, news, etc., not to be subjected to the secretary's POLITICAL views.

[Clark Can WIN]

46. Oh I forgot to mention

that this email was stretegically placed in a transition period, between pastors.

I will turn her over to the big dogs if it happens again, and I did save her email.

[sam sarrha]

40. she should check out Buddhism...... the gods have their realm and we have

ours. they suffer their problems and we suffer ours, actually ours aren't as bad as theirs. That was really comforting to me having been tortured, tormented and molested by the Fundamentalist Christian Extremists from age 5 till i ran away.

[Clete]

43. I think she wants to remain a Christian.

Christians do believe that Christ is the son of God and you're not going to change that, but the biblical Jesus wouldn't recognize what these Churches say he stands for.

[carpetbagger]

44. What town in Texas?

I know of some churches throughout the state that preach traditional or traditional liberal Christianity without the extracurricular activities.

[zbdent]

45. SHOULD HAVE GOT THE PASTOR ON VIDEOTAPE - EVIDENCE!!!

And yes, I did mean to scream this.

That should have been copied and sent to all Dem candidates in her area, along with a quick one over to the IRS.

That would be fun.