Moderation and A.N.S.W.E.R comments on SF protest.

[not systems]

This is a vanity thread based on my reaction to
going to the SF protest today. I didn't see it on TV and
I am not addressing DC at all.

It seems like moderation and street protests are
mutually exclusive in a many ways.

If we waited for a wholesome enough and moderate
enough protest movement that is digestible by nascar
dads or who ever people think are the "swing" voters,
we might wait forever.

The fact is that without groups like ANSWER I don't
think that there is much of an antiwar movement.

In SF today I would say the Act For Change Working Assets
was the most sucsessful at getting a "main stream" antiwar message out.

Their signs which I used read:

"How many lives to the gallon?"
"Support the troops. Bring them home"
"Register to vote for peace."

These were effective at projecting a marketable sound bite.

Rather than rag ANSWER I suggest people project their
messages like Act For Change did by showing up with free
quality signs and handing them out to all takers.

Today their was a large "red" faction but if you look
at history an honest liberal will recognize that "leftists"
have fought the good fight for many issues long before
more "middle of the road" people joined in.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. Thank you

I agree, and I wanted to say so, and to agree with you before this gets locked. You'll note that pro-ANSWER threads are locked almost immediately for some reason.

ANSWER did a wonderful thing today with this rally. They've gotten a great deal of undeserved negativity and scorn from this forum.

Thanks for your post.

[MaidinVermont]

3. undeserved negativity?

Hardly. People are free to feel as negative or positive as they feel deserved. They went too far IMO this time.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[DisgustipatedinCA]

10. IMO, they didn't

Who went too far, and in what way?

[laura888]

15. absolutely! This forum has some problem with ANSWER.

I went to the DC rally and found it a great success, despite posts on this forum to the contrary.

[MaidinVermont]

2. Having speakers for the resistance that's killing our soldiers

is going too far. If the Dems ever connect with these folks then it's the end for the party. It was sickening.

[Melinda]

5. Which speakers represented those killing our troops?

I'd appreciate knowing the particulars, thanks.

[MaidinVermont]

11. I'll have to tape the cspan rerun to get the names

It was there. Speakers calling for support of the resistance against American soldiers. Sorry, I'm not supporting that type of sickness.

[Melinda]

13. "Support of the resistance against American soldiers"?

Specifically: Did you hear calls for violence against our troops?

[MaidinVermont]

18. Supporting the resistance against American soldiers

sure looks violent when they bomb jeeps and shoot our soldiers while they are trying to help rebuild democracy in Iraq.

To me supporting the resistance against American soldiers is calling for violence but I could just be more sensitive than some and misheard it.

[not systems]

21. Please don't high jack this thread.

It is not about DC or CSPAN at all.

You can post whatever you want.

But your unsupported slander of 25000 people who
want to bring these guys home and out of harms way
is offtopic.

Not that it would ever stop someone from flaming away.

[papau]

16. In DC -speaker in solidaritywith Iraq freedom fighters/resistance fighters

Plus load of speeches that the US is rotten, the US in history has been rotten, etc.

I turned it off.

I'm glad they could get 25000 in DC to come out - but I suspect "bring them home" was the crowds point - not "let us now shit on the US",

IMHO

:-)

[Melinda]

22. Perhaps speakers from International Action Center?

Nah, they wouldn't call for death to our troops - they advocate against violence. IAC is quite pro-resistance to all US occupation and domination worldwide though, and one can see how they advocate resistance here:

http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/resources/

[not systems]

9. Were you at the SF protest?

That is the topic of this thread.

What are you talking about?

I have no idea what speaker you are talking about.

You will not have to worry about Dems getting connected
with the protest because they were not there.

Kucinich had a booth and a hand full of Dean supporters
like myself were in attendance.

I over heard one guy talking up Kerry to a Kucinich supporter.

That was it. This was a mostly "red" and "green" event
with a large number of antiwar people focusing on getting
rid of Bush in 2004 and ending the war.

Edited to not say FOX news.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[active_in_ca]

6. Turnout today was disappointing

I attended every major SF march since this time last year and watched the crowds grow to monumental proportion - hundreds of thousands in February and March. Today was unimpressive - I would have thought we would see many more folks. I guess apathy is setting in yet again.

I was surprised that at the park there were so mamy socialist this and communist that tables - these are not really values I want to stand alongside.

But I agree, without them, who else will step forward and organize these events. Sure as hell not the Dem congressturds... So for that I commend their efforts, and I support them with donations at each of these events.

[JanMichael]

17. You mean "Values" like Workers Rights, Human Rights?

Really?
Sorry for your dissappointment.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[SoCalDem]

19. The dichotomy of messages....(at rallies, marches)

SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Sat Oct-25-03 05:03 PM
Response to Original message

165. The dichotomy of messages....(at rallies, marches)

Edited on Sat Oct-25-03 05:07 PM by SoCalDem
From the standpoint of "middle america"


republicans...

morality... (vague, but still an emotion filled word)
religious...(misused, but hightly effective as a wedge tool)
personal responsibility...(cloaked racism/classism)
patriotism...(more loaded language,but effective)

They scream these "qualities" from the rooftops and they emanate from every tv and radio in the country.. They have no real application in any of their legislation or in their daily lives, but they are the watchwords of the whole republican "movement".. People, in general, would agree with ALL of these "talking points".. We all know that most people do not read papers, or serious books, so they would like to see themselves framed as holding ALL of these qualities as their own..

democrats...

free Mumia...(most people do not even know WHO he is, and when they find out thst he case involved the death of a cop, they do not line up o his side.. remember...people are too "busy" to delve into matters of unfair trials..(if that is the case here)...

America is an evil imperialist/capitalist force... (this is actually partly true, but again, people do not see themselves as evil, nor do they want to be associated with a group preceived as evil..)

gay rights.. (sure we all know that people should ALL have the same rights, but there are dems in middle america, who, even with gay people in their OWN families, still find the whole issue as "distasteful and shameful")..




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are NOT organized, and we probably NEVER will be, because we have so many issues and we have allowed ourselves to be on defense for so many years.. Our leaders have taken the comfy backseat, and are satisfied to stay there, because they are too afraid of being identified as a person with an opinion..an agenda..a philospohy.. They are content to "ride out the storm" every election season, as as long as they stay in office, their objective has been met.. The fact that they never really accomplish anything for their constituents does not seem to bother them in the least..

It's the carrot/stick dilemma...no matter how fast you run, you will never get any closer to that damned carrot..and they know it..

Groups like ANSWER get attention because the right WANTS them to be noticed.. Our side is so despearte for attention, that we align ourselves with ANYONE who gets a chance to speak up.. We do this because our own leaders do not speak up on our behalf.. The right just loves this, because they get to frame us by the "company we keep".. We do not agree with all that ANSWER stands for, though, and again we are on defense, trying to separate out the bits that we DO agree on.. This only complicates the issues more..

The Dems should have been in the streets in November 2000, and we should have stayed there until * felt so much heat he was forced to be the bipartisan guy he claimed to be, but we backed down.. We ALWAYS back down, and they know it..

Until the people we elect start taking some real chances and start LEADING the protests, instead of hiding in the shadows , hoping that no one will notice them, we will be forced to climb into bed with anyone who will at least pretend to love us, even if we wake up alone, and feeling used..

[w13rd0]

25. In all fairness...

...if you want to cite examples of the "far left" agenda, you should mirror with the "far right" agenda, rather than citing the "moderate" 'wingnut' agenda.

morality... (vague, but still an emotion filled word)
Ministry of Vice and Virtue

religious...(misused, but hightly effective as a wedge tool)
John Ashcroft, see above

personal responsibility...(cloaked racism/classism)
Return of segregation, unequal penal and judicial system, trickle down economics

patriotism...(more loaded language,but effective)
Nationalism and unilateral action

Once again, this is the whole issue of controlling the dialogue of debate. The instances of the "far left" agenda you cite are specific examples of more general concerns.

"free mumia" - judicial and penal equity
gay rights - ok, what of it?
us is evil imperialist/capitalist - concern for economic and social justice that applies to everyone worldwide

[SoCalDem]

27. That's preciselty my point..

groups that we align with are FAR LEFT, so anthing that the rightwingers portray themselves as, in public, "seems" moderate..

we all know that the underbelly of the republican party does not display its reptilian self in public..

Their public face is very demure and wholesome, using those attributes I listed..

Turn that rock over and you will find the racists, the gun nuts, the doctor-killers, the militia-types, the corporate thieves, the slime-bucket toters..

Those are the ones they keep hidden behind the little cookie-cutter blonde Stepford women, or the Gary Bauer wannabees.. These are the front people...

[cally]

24. Sorry we did not meet at the protest

I think the SF protest was a huge success. I spoke to many diverse folks who just want to end the war and bring the troops home. Protests always have communist and socialist groups. THEY turn out and usually have the best, and most organized, chants. I enjoy marching beside them. You would be amazed at the number of Veteran's For Peace shirts and signs I saw.

I don't always listen to the speakers because I often can't hear them. But usually, many leftist causes are discussed. I don't always agree with a speaker but it makes me proud to be part of a community that allows diversity. I never thought a protest march should limit free speech from progressives.

[not systems]

28. I saw a lot of veteran also.

I also saw outreach on issues for conscientious objectors in the booths.

I don't get bent out of shape if I hear or see one thing I disagree with.

I am also proud that SF has a dynamic and active
community that allows even an economic moderate and
social liberal like myself to protest without getting
tested for ideology at the gate.

It was a very diverse crowd and thats why I love it here.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

29. You make me wistful

I was able to attend several of the San Francisco rallies and marches earlier this year, and last. Alas, I'm in a different part of the country now. I went to a smaller gathering today, and I'm glad I did, but several times I wondered what was happening on Market Street. It sounds like there was a good showing. Bravo!

[KoKo]

26. I worry that "average Americans" will get used to the "body count." It's

beginning to worry me that we will go "back in time" to the early days of Viet Nam..when no one noticed the count until it got so high that they could see former classmates names and cousins and friends were dying.

Today, with the Volunteer Army, it's not so easy to notice, and when the media announces a death or two after awhile it just becomes another number, boring, to those who "bore easily."

I would never be in favor if the "draft" coming back, but worry that the "shock value" of this immoral and illegal (to me) war will somehow become "yesterday's news," with Kobe, Kobe, Kobe all the time.

Unless we have ways to mobilize "anti Iraq Invasion over lies of our P-Resident" how will we keep the memory of those who are dying alive?

If ANSWER/UFP can help us do that....we have to go with them. We aren't getting help from our party as SoCal points out in her comments here. What other alternative do we have?

[not systems]

30. Apathy is setting in.

I agree as the numbers rise week by week the individual
deaths are getting less and less attention.

The "shock value" has weakened. People are able to
accept incremental horror with great adaptation.

I don't know how to keep people awake to the deaths in Iraq.

I fear that it might fester on for years or decades
even assuming a new president next year it is
posable that it just continues on. The pressure
against pull out gets greater as our buisness intrests
get more established there. Also the deaths of
our troops creates a feadback where the sacrifices
to date justify the next ones.

I don't see much help coming from the Democratic party
after only 11 votes turned up in the senate against the
blank check bill.

I hope that will change after our 2004 candidate gets selected.