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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 09:50 PM
Original message
Compare Democratic candidates' positions on Iraq
Explanation: I've created kind of a cheat sheet -- the nine candidates in alphabetical order, links to their web sites with brief synopses of their positions on Iraq taken from their web sites (exception is Al Sharpton; I couldn't find anything about Iraq on his web site). If supporters of a particular candidate believe I am misrepresenting that candidate's views, please leave comments.

I am posting this here because I'd like some editorial feedback. I particularly want to hear from Gephardt supporters, because it was very hard to find information on his plans for Iraq on his web site; maybe I missed it. Also I'd like to hear from Sharpton supporters who can point me toward an article or speech or statement made by Al Sharpton to fill in the blank.

The point of this is to make it easy to compare the candidates on this one position. Here's the link:

http://www.mahablog.com/2003.10.19_arch.html#1067101540679

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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for posting this
This is very helpful. Good work.

Sharpton's web page, last time I looked, was not the most useful for finding out stuff on.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Thanks for the link! n/t
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sharpton at today's DC Rally
said we should bring the troops home ...

he's right, of course ...
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Girlfriday Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I love Al, but
Edited on Sat Oct-25-03 10:03 PM by Girlfriday
his speech today at the rally was less than inspiring. IMO


oops, spelling
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. yup
same read here ... he seemed a bit off his game ...

a little too much shouting and not enough of his biting, insightful wit ...

still, he was dead on about the war ...
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I need to dig up one of the debate transcripts.
I believe he made some statements in the debates, but I haven't had a chance to root around and find the transcripts. I just want to be sure that whatever I post for him is what he said, and not what somebody else says he said.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. Not quite accurate on Kucinich
He doesn't suggest "we dump the whole mess on the UN and skeedaddle". His position is the US would fund the reconstruction. In addition, he's aware the US withdrawal has to be negotiated. If the UN refused to step in (unlikely), I would guess he would have the US stay and oversee the accelerated return of Iraqi sovereignty.

Here's another link you might want to look at. Earlier than the one on his website, but is shorter and clearer.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/oh10_kucinich/030728Iraqst.html
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. OK.
Edited on Sat Oct-25-03 10:58 PM by maha
For the sake of lurkers, here is a link to the Kucinich plan we are discussing here. Please read it for yourself and make up your own mind about its merits.

http://www.kucinich.us/statements.htm#100903

He doesn't suggest "we dump the whole mess on the UN and skeedaddle".

That's what his plan amounts to, if you're honest about it. Notice this was a parenthetical comment.

His position is the US would fund the reconstruction.

Sort of. After going through a long list of what he says the UN will do (fat chance), he adds at the end, "The US owes a moral debt to the people of Iraq for the damage caused by the US invasion. The US will also owe a contribution to the UN to help Iraq make the transition to self-government." That doesn't quite add up to "the US would fund reconstruction." However, I will make some revisions.

In addition, he's aware the US withdrawal has to be negotiated.

He doesn't SAY that. His stated position is, "The President must go to the UN and announce the US intention to hand over all administrative and security responsibilities to the UN. The UN would help Iraqis move quickly toward self-determination." The word "announce" doesn't suggest negotiation to me. "Request," maybe, but not "announce."

If the UN refused to step in (unlikely), I would guess he would have the US stay and oversee the accelerated return of Iraqi sovereignty.

No guessing allowed. If the candidate doesn't explicitly SAY something, I don't PRESUME to know what's in his head. I didn't make presumptions for any other candidate, and I'm not doing it with Kucinich. Also, I think it is EXTREMELY doubtful the UN would go along with the plan as presented. They might agree to some of it, but not all of it.

He's made some very, very huge (and IMO, wildly unrealistic) assumptions about what the UN will do and how quickly they will do it, and there doesn't appear to be a Plan B. If there IS a Plan B somewhere, please provide a link, but please show me something from Kucinich himself.

Here's another link you might want to look at. Earlier than the one on his website, but is shorter and clearer.

Didn't help. Didn't tell me anything new.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Maybe you should read the link again (or for the first time)
It clearly states, "Negotiations for an exit must begin now." It also clearly states, "Finally the Administration, which unwisely ordered the bombing, must fund the reconstruction." And if guessing (or reasonable extrapolation from a person's career) isn't allowed, you should simply say (if you're attempting to be fair), Kucinich hasn't stated what his position would be if negotiations fail.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/oh10_kucinich/030728Iraqst.html

<edit>

“The United Nations must be brought in. Negotiations for an exit must begin now. An exit agreement with the United Nations must involve the US letting go of the contracting process.

“The UN must also take over management, accounting and distribution to the Iraqi people of Iraq’s oil profits. Additionally, a transition from UN control to self- determined governing structure by and for the Iraqi people must be planned. Finally the Administration, which unwisely ordered the bombing, must fund the reconstruction.

more...



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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. To be consistent
You should point out that Braun and Sharpton were opposed to the war. That's clear. Really much clearer than the opposition of Clark and I would argue Dean as well.

For all the candidates, Project Vote Smart has a good collection of speeches, statements and interviews with a handy search feature.

Here's an older statement by Sharpton from a Face the Nation interview:
First of all, I would try and heal the rift that we have cause with allies in the United Nations and those that may not be allies. I would aggressively move toward trying to find common ground with those that are members of the United Nation to have a multinational strategy toward reconstruction. I think that the rhetoric we've heard from the president this week is the exact opposite of what we need. In fact, I will be calling on the president today to apologize to the American servicemen and their families for what he said.

As you said, I'm in Los Angeles. For the president to say, 'Bring it on,' almost like daring and provoking Iraqis to kill American soldiers, he sounds more like a gang leader in South Central LA than one that is trying to institute a policy of democracy and reconstruction in the world. I think what we must do is show the world we want to be partners in progress, not bullies in warfare.

Yeah, it's not directly about the about the $87,000,000,000.00, but it's not the Rev.'s fault reporters haven't asked him this and reported it, and since he was marching today with Conyers you can pretty much imagine what he thinks. Anyway, although some anti-war protesters have made an issue of it, the question of the $87 is not the same question for each candidate in the primary, and I guess you realize that from like the way you've used Clark's statements. So if it's generally about exit stragety or future plans, then you should quote Sharpton too on that, and perhaps think of framing it more generally to be fair to all the candidates, if that's your goal.

Finally, if you're going to paraphrase, and you care about being objective and fair, you've got to be extra careful. For instance, your readers might not know that Braun opposed the war, and honestly, whenever she's asked, that's like something she always says. And like there was a big "however" preceeding "We don't cut and run" and it reads like that on her web page, which you linked to.

Now if $87,000,000,000.00 is the question you really want to have asked and answered by all the candidates, here's Braun's full response from the debate at Pace University:
I stand with the mothers of the young men and women who are in the desert in Iraq and who, right now, are in a shooting gallery without even sufficient supplies to sustain themselves. And so it is absolutely, I think, critical that we not cut and run, that we provide our troops with what they need and that we not just blow up that country and leave it blown up. We have a responsibility. Following in on that responsibility means we will have to vote some money. The estimates vary as to what that is. Almost a year ago, I called on this president not to go into Iraq, and I called—I called on the Congress not to give him the authority to go into Iraq. And at the same time, asked the question, 'Mr. President, how much is this going to cost?' He didn't answer the question then. He's not answering the question now. But I believe it's going to be important for us to come up with the money to make certain that our young men and women and our reputation as leaders in the world is not permanently destroyed by the folly of preemptive war.


Notice the beginning "I stand with the mothers." This was a point highlighted in the Braun campaign's press release, so if you want to be fair, I think, you have to consider that as a critical aspect of her reply. And notice the last bit, "the folly of preemptive war." Say that you want to focus on what's in the middle. If you strip out rhetorical points of emphasis like openings and closings, and still want to be fair about it, then you should be careful in your paraphrasing that you don't totally omit those points or present an argument as something other than what it was.

This is tricky. Dick Gephardt has also said "American's don't cut and run." The key is context. IIRC at one debate that was like the first phrase out of his mouth in answer to a question about the $87,000,000,000.00 request. So I think it's something that he has emphasized, and Braun of course has emphasized that point, but how would you characterize their telling differences?

I just noticed for instance on the Gephardt page some really outstanding quotes highlighted:
I'm seeking the presidency because foreign policy isn't a John Wayne movie, where we catch the bad guys, hoist a few cold ones and then everything fades to black.

That actually sounds like some of the other things he's been saying since "Enough of the phony macho rhetoric." But, at that time as you note he was still calling himself quite honestly I believe a supporter of the war. Hmmm. What to emphasize, what to emphasize.

I don't know Maha, you've done a good job of finding some relevant statements and bringing them together. You characterizations of the candidates could be fairer in my view, but it is very difficult, and at least you have provided links and a springboard for further discussion.
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