The Pope/The Vatican and their political impact - article from The Nation

[Woodstock]

Many of the policies coming from the Pope/the Vatican conflict with those of the Democratic Party in America. Of course, I've never understood those willing to dismiss the Pope's fundamental position that women are societally inferior to men. But I'm completely befuddled by those who either dismiss or don't bother to learn about his positions on birth control and condoms that have cost so many people their lives. Although many in the church want to see reform (including me), the prospect is dismal, as the pope has stacked the deck of those who will choose his successor with arch-conservative cardinals. The political positions of the Vatican GREATLY affect many of the people in the world, including our own nation, but the health of those in third world nations is most seriously impacted, as is shown in this article:

From the respected liberal political publication, The Nation:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031103&s=pollitt

...According to "Sex and the Holy City," in Africa, where HIV infects millions--20 percent in Kenya, 40 percent in Botswana, 34 percent in Zimbabwe--Catholic clergy, who oppose condoms as they do all contraception, are actively promoting the myth that condoms don't prevent transmission of the virus and may even spread it. The Guardian quotes the archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, as saying: "AIDS...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." Thus is a decade of painstaking work to mainstream and normalize condom use undone by the conscious promotion of an urban legend.

...It's all very well for David Brooks {conservative editor of the Weekly Standard} to mock those who critique the Pope for his "unfashionable views on abortion," as if 78,000 women a year dying in illegal procedures around the world was just something to chat about over brie and chablis. But add it up: a priesthood as male as the Kuwaiti electorate--even altar girls may be banned soon, according to one recent news story--no divorce, no abortion, no contraception, no condom use even within a faithful marriage to prevent a deadly infection.

It's bad enough to argue that condoms are against God's will while millions die. But to maintain, falsely, that they are ineffective in order to discourage their use is truly immoral...

[Padraig18]

1. This weeks "Bash the Pope" thread...

:eyes:

[kalian]

3. OK, ok...how about "bash the Vatican week"...

better? The Pope is not behind this...the Vatican was. Better?
:eyes:

[Padraig18]

5. Whatever...

:eyes:

[kalian]

21. How about another pair of eyes....

:eyes:

[Woodstock]

4. Please address the issues

There are FACTS presented. Please discuss how you feel about these facts, instead of dismissing them.

Please note, I am a woman and a Democrat, and I consider these positions to be the opposite of our party platform. I am also a Catholic, by the way, and lots of us disagree with these positions, as well.

[Padraig18]

7. For the 148th time, or for the 1st time *this* freakin' week, do you mean?

This has been beaten to DEATH! What was your point in re-posting this open invitation to a flame war? Don't care to read back through the OTHER 148 threads discuissing it? :eyes:

[Woodstock]

9. I've spent a huge amount of time here - way too much, in fact

and only remember one thread on the pope, in which anyone who said anything but praise was condemned.

Please direct me to the other thread where Pollitt's article was discussed (and is it still near the top?) On DU, I want to discuss what someone in a respected liberal publication (The Nation) wrote in a recent article.

[Padraig18]

11. You've not paid much attention, then...

... if you think there was only one.

[Woodstock]

13. Facts please

Please provide the links where Pollitt's article is discussed.

[Padraig18]

16. The *ISSUE* has bgeen discussed repeatedly!

I don't give a rat's ARSE if someone ELSE wrote and article about it. Same whore, different street corner, ffs!

[arwalden]

44. Oh now THAT'S Productive...

Now that we know how YOU feel about it... why is it fair to suggest that others be prevented from expressing how THEY feel about it?

I wasn't aware that each topic had a shelf-life of only 24 hours.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Woodstock]

6. I presented an article from a respected liberal publication

for discussion. You are characterizing this as such, not me. (And once again, you are getting personal with the insults, not me.)

[VermontDem2004]

10. I can't understand why the Pope is untouchable

Reagan is on his death bed but he still gets critized by many DUers, to me the Pope is just another person, he is not untouchable and critism of him is translated into insulting and bashing.

[jiacinto]

12. Maybe because I am Catholic and respect the head of

my religion. He is someone sacred.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VermontDem2004]

22. Yes interesting comparison

I know republicans who are OUTRAGED when we critize their "fearless" leader.

[Lefty48197]

25. If you're comparing the Pope to Jerry Falwell

then you're gonna fry in hell.

[VermontDem2004]

27. I guess I am frying in hell as we speak

[kalian]

28. Is that with or without sarcasm...?

[Woodstock]

15. I am Catholic and I want to talk about it

This is a liberal Democratic board, and he as the head of state of the Vatican, sets political policy that affects a lot of people, including those in this country. This political policy is in direct conflict with those of our party platform.

[Lefty48197]

26. The Pope has been a tireless advocate for PEACE

is that in opposition to your political beliefs?

[kalian]

29. Peace...no....

Reprodcutive rights...different issue.

[Woodstock]

31. I brought up the things I disagreed with

these are very significant issues that cost many, many people their lives

they are in direct opposition to our party platform

and worthy of discussion

[arwalden]

46. Okay... fine... but that's not what we're talking about here.

-- Allen

[VermontDem2004]

18. Not everyone is catholic

And some people do have a problem with some of the positions he has taken on very important issues to them. He is not someone sacred, he is just another person, he inhales, he sleeps, he eats, and so on, he is no different then you and me.

[JVS]

42. And his policies affect more than just Catholics as well

Everyone has a right to criticize the Pope

[cliss]

8. I took a class on health issues recently,

and the instructor informed us that medical health professionals predict that by the year 2030, 1 out of every 2 Africans will be dead. AIDS will be the killer.

Isn't there anything we can do for these people?

[Democrats unite]

17. Yes there is something we can do...

Get rid of the catholic church. Problem solved.

[kalian]

20. I wish it were that easy....

I really do...

[Woodstock]

23. In a way that is happening - people are leaving

So many of us don't like what is happening. It's a shame.

[JVS]

43. Does Vatican II need a Reformation II?

[Liberator_Rev]

47. I'm one of the thousands of priests who left because...

as soon as Pope John XXIII was cold, the Conservatives took over again and started undoing the Reforms it had taken CENTURIES to achieve. There were even bishops who left. Things are still getting worse rather than better.

[kalian]

19. Unfortunately....

I don't think there is the "will" on behalf of the elites.
Africa is the next stomping grounds...its rich in natural resources
that have yet to be fully exploited. Imagine if the majority of the
population were wiped out or about to be wiped out when you send in
the corporations/military... How much "easier" it would be not having
to deal with "locals". :eyes:
Sad...but true...

[Democrats unite]

24. I think you just hit the nail right on the head

eom.

[Padraig18]

30. Hmmm...

News Flash! The head of the Roman Catholic Church is dissing the use of condoms in a society which is culturally-resistant to them, preferring to teach abstinence and monogamy instead!

Film at 11:00! Also, dog bites man! :eyes:

[kalian]

32. And those same cultures....

DO NOT comprehend abstinence and monogamy! Like DUH! :eyes:
What are you trying to justify? A white man's beliefs on a different
culture/race?!
Dude...21st Century....remember?

And one more little thing: these same cultures believe that having
sex with a virgin will "cleanse" them. So...in my book, I'd rather
try to impose the use of condoms in order to protect the victims.
The Catholic Church is getting IN THE WAY here by removing a potential
disease barrier as an OPTION.
Its about CHOICE...and the Church is NOT providing that option.

Abstinence and monogamy are archaic concepts that have NO correlation
to the prevention of disease control.

[Padraig18]

33. Does the phrase 'teaching pigs to fly' ring a bell, DUDE?

It makes about as much sense to criticize the RCC for opposing condom use as it does to berate pigs for not flying... This post was, is and will continue to be nothing but flame bait. :eyes:

[Woodstock]

34. yes, you have been flaming me, Padraig18

but others want to talk about people dying in Africa for no reason

something, by the way, our own pResident, goes along with - he is also opposed to birth control

I am sure you are also deeply concerned about how the religious right and the Vatican are contributing to AIDS deaths with misguided policy - please at any point feel free to comment on the facts I have brought up

[Democrats unite]

36. Woodstock, you bring up some very good valid points.

Please don't hold your breath waiting for an answer, I doubt one will come.

IMHO people trying to defend the Pope (and not very good at it) they seem to sound just like freepers defending bush, and both are full of...

[Woodstock]

39. thanks!

[Padraig18]

37. It's not 'flaming' you to point out that *this* is flame bait. n/t

[VermontDem2004]

38. It may be

But there is no excessive capitilization, no cursing, no cheap shots or whatever, the post looks like it brings up some valid points and I think they should be discussed but if you don't want to discuss there are other threads in which you can discuss other topics in.

[arwalden]

45. Glad You're Here Woodstock. Excellent Points!

It's sad that others want to CONVERT this thread into a flame war... and then criticize it for being a flame war. Go figure!

Best I can come up with is that instead of arguing the points... or instead of IGNORING the thread, they would rather shut off all debate by trashing the thread and accusing others of gratuitous Pope-bashing. Others suggest that "it's been discussed" already and imply that it's not worthy of further discussion.

I think it just makes them uncomfortable to have to answer tough questions and for their conservative leaders to be held accountable for flawed, misguided, and unethical policies. Quite frankly, I see no justifiable excuse for substituting doctrine for sound medicine and science... but I'm always willing to listen.

Only thing is... I don't hear anything other than the equivalent of "shut-up! shut-UP!! SHUT-UP!!!".

That's disappointing.

-- Allen

[kalian]

35. Huh?!

Open the parachute dude....

[Padraig18]

40. My feet are firmly on the ground, thanks. n/t

[Woodstock]

41. another article - Bush Admin. & the Vatican team up to block condoms

The Vatican and Bush are partners at opposing birth control/condoms and this is having a negative impact on the war against the spread of AIDS.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030203&s=block&c=1

...Together, joined by the Vatican, these culture warriors {the Bush Administration} fought to purge the world of comprehensive sex education for adolescents, restrict STD-prevention and contraceptive information to heterosexual married couples, and redefine "reproductive health services" to exclude legal abortion.

Most of the 3,000 activists and diplomats in attendance came to New York intending to negotiate broader definitions and commit more services to young people, who are becoming infected with HIV at the rate of five per minute, according to the UN. Instead, they had to fight tooth and nail just to hang on to language already on the books. "The United States really hijacked the whole session," says Françoise Girard of the International Women's Health Coalition. ..

Then came the real weapon of mass destruction, as far as women's rights are concerned: On November 1, Bush announced that the United States was considering withdrawing its support from the landmark agreement reached by 179 countries at the 1994 International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo. For the global women's movement, the ICPD is considered a watershed event--the first time an official connection was made between population control and empowering women with information and contraception. With the Fifth Asian and Pacific Population Conference in Bangkok looming in December--a regional meeting for delegates to review the advances made in implementing the ICPD, not to revisit its basic principles--the United States was threatening to oppose the document unless all references to "reproductive health services" and "reproductive rights" were deleted.

But this time the Administration miscalculated. "They really overplayed their hand," says Françoise Girard. At an especially revealing moment during the December 11-17 showdown in Bangkok, US adviser Elaine Jones, an international relations officer in the State Department, took the microphone to express her country's--our country's--insistence that natural family-planning methods be emphasized in the conference document, offering her own experience with the Billings method of birth control (which involves checking the viscosity of one's own cervical mucus): "I've used the Billings method for ten years," Jones announced, "and it works." As titters spread across the room, one of the first of many responses came from, of all places, Iran. "Well, I'm an Ob-Gyn," said the Iranian delegate. "I have to tell you that natural family-planning methods have a very high failure rate. And by the way, it says so in all the textbooks that come from United States." ..

[Liberator_Rev]

48. Enough of the Pope's billion sheep are here to shut you up.

You'll find, Woodstock, that there are more than enough of the Pope's flock right here at DU to stiffle any criticism of "His Holiness". Consider yourself lucky that Padraig18's been the only one trying to gag you here.