Question for southern baptists Democrats

[Blue_Roses]

I don't want this to be a flame thread, so please be serious and nice...I've already had a rough morning in church.

I just moved to another state and my spouse and I are looking for a church that "fits" for us, but mainly one our kids can enjoy. I was raised in the south and still live in the south. Our parents had us in church every Sunday--southern baptist of course, however, my parents have always been Democrats, as I too. I stopped going to church for a long time, but started back randomly a couple of years ago, but one thing I have noticed is how it has become a Republican love-fest at a southern baptist church.

This morning we visited a "southern" baptist church,and as usual we got the same all song and dance about homosexuality is wrong and Bush is right to push marriage. It was all I could do to sit there and not get up and walk out, but I wanted to hear the "punchline," at the end. His punchline came in the form of an endorsement for "President Bush" and how wonderful he is to support this union, but also to go vote at www.family.org and tell our senators how we shouldn't support "gay marriage." That's where I felt once again, I had been suckered. I don't care about what others do behind closed doors.

How do you stay a southern baptist and why? I had some wonderful times in the southern baptist church I grew up in as kid, and that's what I wanted for my kids, but I just can't stomach this right-wing crap.I've been trying to ignore this since leaving church this morning, but this is nawin' hard on me. I told my spouse we wouldn't be going back.

I don't know where we belong...

What are your thoughts and any advice?

[La_Serpiente]

1. I am not a Southern Baptist

But I'll just give you my opnion anyway.

I have read stories over the past decade of how the leadership of the past was filtered out and a new group came in. They basically took away the localism of their churches, and placed a stranglehold on them.

Jimmy Carter left the church a few years back because of the way it was dealing with it's members.

That's all I know.

[WillyBrandt]

3. the right was to disassemble anyhthing non-right

why do you think the attacks on both liberal and centrist institutions: the ny times, pbs/npr, universities, non-crazy theological seminiaries, liberal churches, etc.

The Christian Coalition is obviously a political organization, but it also works to change in ways outside of elections themselves. It seems to change the political nature of churches. Step 1: Make non-politicla churches political. Step 2: Make sure those new political churches are right wing.

It's no accident.

[Blue_Roses]

4. I remember that now

Jimmy Carter was a southern baptist and left. Maybe I need to email him.

[madrchsod]

2. if it were me

i`d look for a mixed black and white church-there must be some down there-at least they wouldn`t be fronts for the bush klan....

[GOPFighter]

5. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist church...

...that's why I'm now an athiest.

Do you know any people at work who share your politics? If so, ask them where they worship.

[Blue_Roses]

6. No

I'm unemployed at this time. where can I find those who are as disgusted with me at the way the southern baptist church has shifted?

They are indeed a political force in itself. Almost so, that it is scarey.

[eleny]

You might start by looking for a Yahoo group...

for Democrats in your state. By doing a search for <your state Democrats>, a group might turn up. http://groups.yahoo.com/

Good luck!

[swinney]

7. SOUTHERN BAPTIST ONLY MAJOR RELIGION TO ENDORSE SLAUGHTERHOUSE IN IRAQ.

southern baptist vote Republican.

Rev John Hagee on Bush--"I am glad we have a President with a backbone not a wishbone". Hagee chooses to ignore --
DRAFT DODGER
CRIMINAL MILITARY DESERTER
CRIMINAL ABORTION ACCESSORY
CRIMINAL COCAINE SNORTER
CRIMINAL DRUNK
CRIMINAL BUSINESS CROOK
PATHOLOGICAL LIAR
ALLEGED ADULTERER
ALLEGED WOMAN ASSAULTER

BACKBONE JOHN???????????

these people are sicko.
Problem. Most are ignorant. Intelligent ones are dumb(ignorant of info)

[Bertha Venation]

18. questions

You wrote, "southern baptist vote Republican. . . . these people are sicko. Problem. Most are ignorant. Intelligent ones are dumb (ignorant of info)"

Not all SBs vote or are Republican. Why do you say "sicko?" Why "ignorant?" The latter I wouldn't completely disagree with, as many are ignorant in the most literal sense of the word. But the generalizations you've used are troubling.

[jody]

8. Please consider these positions and forgive the Methodist Church for

one of its members.

QUOTE
The Natural World
All creation is the Lord's, and we are responsible for the ways we use and abuse it. Water, air, soil, minerals, energy resources, plants, animal life, and space are to be valued and conserved because they are God's creation and not solely because they are useful to human beings.

The Nurturing Community
The community provides the potential for nurturing human beings into the fullness of their humanity. We believe we have a responsibility to innovate, sponsor, and evaluate new forms of community that will encourage development of the fullest potential in individuals.

The Social Community
The rights and privileges a society bestows upon or withholds from those who comprise it indicate the relative esteem in which that society holds particular persons and groups of persons. We affirm all persons as equally valuable in the sight of God.

The Economic Community
We claim all economic systems to be under the judgment of God no less than other facets of the created order.

The Political Community
While our allegiance to God takes precedence over our allegiance to any state, we acknowledge the vital function of government as a principal vehicle for the ordering of society. Because we know ourselves to be responsible to God for social and political life, we declare the following relative to governments:

The World Community
God's world is one world. We commit ourselves to the achievement of a world community that is a fellowship of persons who honestly love one another.
UNQUOTE

[Blue_Roses]

10. Ironically Bush goes to a Methodist church

Laura is a Methodist and Clinton always went to a southern baptist church...I've always thought that was hilarious.

I've considered visiting a Methodist church.

[jody]

13. That's why I asked you to forgive the Church for one of its members.

Ken Lay was or is also a member of the Methodist Church.

The United Methodist Bishops were very outspoken in opposing AWOL's war against Iraq.

[polmaven]

24. And the Bishops asked to meet with Bush

and were turned away! This "deeply religious" man refused to meet with the Bishops of the church to which he claims loyalty. God told him to do what he did, you see, and what would the Bishops of his own church know about God's will?

Jody, you are right about the United Methodist Church. While it does have its fundamentalist wing, there are some very liberal individual churches there as well.

My own UMC pastor is a woman, married to a UMC pastor of a church in a nearby town.

We are a "Reconciling Congregation" which has chosen to make a deliberate statement to our homosexual brothers and sisters that they are welcome with us for who they are.

I agree, Jody. Devrc243 may be happy at a UMC church

[pllib]

9. Lived most of my adult life in South,

although I am a Catholic, it is hard to not live in a small town where the populatin is 70% + Baptist and not learn something about it. There has been an unfortunate move in the Southern Baptist Convention to enforce unity of scriptural interpretation (ie, a fundamentalist one), that strikes me as being antithetical to the whole notion of individual interpretation of scripture, under the guidance of the Spirit, that has been the hallmark of Baptist theology. Anyway, a number of Baptist churches have left the SBC, particularly those in larger communities - you might investigate those. You could also look into a Methodist church - Methodists are somewhat more liturgical than Baptists, but tend to be more social justice oriented. The other mainline Protestan demoninations (Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian) are also more "liberal" in their overall approach than some of the more fundamentalist churches (Church of God, etc.).

Good luck.

[Rowdyboy]

11. "Recovered" southern baptist with some thoughts...

I was only Baptist a few months as a child after they scared the hell out of me in Vacation Bible School. Later I joined the United Methodist church until my early 20's when I stopped going altogether. Twenty years later, when I needed to find my faith again, I settled on the Episcopalians as the most socially conscious, liberal of the mainstream protestant denomination. As a gay man in a rural southern community I have been welcomed which says a lot for these people.

As to how liberals remain southern baptists, I can only give one example. My best friend at work was a married southern baptist who went only because of her husband. She completely rejected church doctrine and laughed at the idea that wives should be subservient to husbands. Its like Catholics who practice birth control and support homosexuality-one can call himself/herself a member of a faith while not necessarily accepting all the tenets of the religion.

on edit: Be careful if you choose to visit a Presbyterian church. Some years ago, conservative dissidents revolted and split the church. Many southern churches went with the fundamentalists. Presbyterian USA is the mainstream, liberal majority. Presbyterian Curch in America (founded 1973) are the fundies.

[Blue_Roses]

14. You would have just "loved"

this morning's service. I honestly thought that Bush was gonna come out from the back choir loft and praise this preacher for this endorsement. It was so blatently obvious.

[Rowdyboy]

16. Believe me, there are MANY better options

than southern Baptists for people with a conscience. Mainstream Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutherans, and Episcopalians are all far more socially conscious and politically aware. When our priest preaches on social issues, he's always very liberal. He's deeply involved in racial reconciliation, and has been a consistent advocate of gays in the church. I live in a rural town of 15000 and attend a church with a membership of approx 100 (at least 8 gay)

[DarbyUSMC]

12. Doctrine wise, you know what you believe. Were I you,

I would get out the yellow pages and let my fingers do the walking. Go through the churches that you agree with in Christian doctrine. If you don't know their doctrine, call and ask that first. After that, go through the list and call to find out their stand on preaching on what political party is right or wrong or bringing biased views of political groups into the worship services. Maybe you could try a community church that has more of a social Gospel and doesn't rock the boat regarding controversial topics. They are called "feel good" churches. They generally don't convict your conscience about anything; they start right on the dot and end on the dot(whereas evangelical services can go on for as long as the Spirit is leading the congregation); there is no altar call because nothing was preached that would change anyone's heart. If you were raised in a Southern Baptist church, I doubt you'd really like that. In fundamental churches the Word of God is what is preached and the congregation lives by that. There are some preachers who say that God is in charge and we'll let Him worry about matters of the world. However, more will emphasize the scriptures and how they are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, just as Christ is. That would concern homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, divorce, women in authority, and many other issues that many would find uncomfortable to deal with. A Methodist or Presbyterian church (not all of them) might be more along the lines of what you are looking for. At any rate, I wish you well in your search.

[Blue_Roses]

17. thanks

appreciate the insight.

[Bertha Venation]

15. wasn't sou. bap., but

I grew up baptist just the same. Went to a Baptist college -- had to sign a pledge: no drinking, smoking, dancing, playing cards (not just no gambling, we could not play cards), or going to movies or theater shows -- yet in the dorm is where I had my first lover. I finally rejected fundamentalist Christianity at 23, but couldn't come out of the closet til I was nearly 30. What a stranglehold that church has on its people.

My mate's parents are Southern Baptists and Democrats. But they believe wholeheartedly that, with the exception of their daughter and me, and their daughter's ex, that homosexuals are destined for hell. We are the exceptions.

So there are Democrats who would buy in wholly to the sermon you heard this morning. Sorry I have no advice for you, though. I hope you'll keep us posted on your search. (Where are you living now, may I ask?)

[Blue_Roses]

20. I moved from Texas

to Arkansas, but was born and raised in Louisiana...and no, I'm not a glutton for punishment and yes, I do have all my teeth, at least for now!

I did find out that the preacher was from Texas as well, so that explains alot too!

[pasadenaboy]

19. you need to go to an American Baptist church

Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter left the Southern Baptists to become American Baptists. They are peace and justice oriented, unlike the Southern Baptists.

[Lars39]

21. Some Southern Baptist churches are members of the American Bapt.

association, too. Found that out when I was trying to dig out email addresses for a media blitz. If there is a church you are interested in, try looking up their webpage first. Some of them are really eye opening. :scared: I've got heavy-duty Southern Bapts missionaries in my family that I just try to avoid. Very hard to have rational conversations with them. :(

[Blue_Roses]

22. I know the feeling. I have a brother-in-law

who is a minister in Texas and what a jerk he is

[LeahMira]

23. Sorry that happened...

It was all I could do to sit there and not get up and walk out, but I wanted to hear the "punchline," at the end.

I wish you had walked out with your spouse and children, right in the middle of the sermon. I understand your curiosity, but next time maybe consider why you should pollute your brain with more of such garbage? A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and all that.

I certainly have no idea where you belong. You are more than welcome to visit a synagogue any time, but I know what fits me doesn't fit everybody. Just shop around until you find a congregation that welcomes you and that is a fit with what you believe. Actually, it's a good experience to visit various congregations... you learn a lot and get a lot to think about in the process!

I'm wondering two things, however. Is it possible that the service you attended is not typical? Might it have been a visiting minister or something? And also, I'm wondering how the heck they get away with a tax exempt status when the minister is endorsing Bush? Isn't that mixing politics and religion?

[Bridget Burke]

25. "An Ecumenical, Liberal Baptist Congregation" in Houston

It's Covenant Church on Caroline Street. Driving by, I've noted the beautiful, simple architecure--award-winning, according to the website. There are links to associated churches:

http://www.covenanthouston.org/

The Southern Baptists were originally strong believers in separation of Church & State. They thought that having influence over Government could lead to Government having influence over their Church. This changed in recent years--about the time the Republican Party in Texas was taken over by activist Christian Fundamentalists. (Just being a Fundamentalist is one thing--wishing to live by what you perceive as the fundamentals of your faith--the Amish & Mennonites are examples. Trying to force everybody else to follow those fundamentals is something else again.)

There may well be a church in your area where you can keep what's best of the old ways. I hope that you find it.

(I was raised Catholic. The first time I saw the inside of our local Baptist Church, my first thought was: Who stole all their stuff?)

[LizW]

26. I understand where you are

completely. It would be nice to be able to go to church where your family goes, but in the current climate that exists in some churches, it may be impossible. I was brought up Southern Baptist by Democratic parents. My parents were liberals, opposed the Viet Nam war, were socially and eologically conscious, etc. My mom always worked and always had an equal say in the family's business.

We were Southern Baptist because that is what the family had always been. Of course, it was not until the late 70's and early 80's that the fundamentalists took over the SBC and began to encroach on the autonomy of local churches and began to demand allegiance to right wing positions. Also, around that time, the Christian Coalition began to encourage churches to get into politics. I left the Southern Baptist church around 1982. My younger brother also left. My older brother bought into the conservative agenda and is a pretty full-fledged fundy now. My mom, now a widow, has been in this church so long that she can't imagine going anywhere else, so she just ignores what she doesn't agree with. She's in her seventies and pretty much says and does what she wants anyway. I think her age allows her a certain amount of respect in the church, so they leave her alone.

I've fought the battles many times of having family try to get my husband and me back into the Baptist church. It's been over 20 years and they still try. What can I say? I'm not going to subject my children to that, and I'm not going to spend every Sunday biting my tongue and gritting my teeth and pretending to believe what I don't believe.

On the other hand, I have a friend who is a liberal Democrat and she and her husband found a Southern Baptist church that they like. It is definitely NOT overly conservative. They have women deacons and women regularly teach Sunday School and speak in services. (All of which is contrary to the very conservative and fundamentalist Southern Baptist Convention directives.) The reason this particular church is this way is because of the minister. He is very liberal, and so the church is liberal. They have had many run-ins with the more conservative churches in the area over the role of women in the church. When the Southern Baptist Convention fired the missionaries who would not sign the statement (I can't remember what it is called) that says the woman should be subservient to her husband, this church raised money and found housing for several couples who had lost their livelihood.

Anyway, the point is, you might be able to find a Southern Baptist church that you like, but I think you have to visit and see what the individual church is like. Don't be afraid to ask blunt questions of the church leaders. You'll know pretty soon if it's not the place for you.

I'm thinking of visiting the local Unitarian Universalist church. I've been interested in it for some time, but I know it may be totally unfamiliar to someone raised Baptist.

Good luck in your search.

[Blue_Roses]

28. Your family sounds alot like

mine growing up. My mother always worked and my dad was very liberal in his thinking. Our church was NOTHING like what I'm experiencing these days and I thoroughly enjoyed my childhood going to that church. That is what I would like for my kids, but I see times have definitely changed.

You sound like you know first hand my dilema. If it was just me and my husband, I wouldn't give it a second thought and change religions next week. But with my kids involved, I've got to make sure I make a decision that is best for them. I know that there are many other good religions to check into, but I guess we always go with what's familiar. HOWEVER, endorsing or "propping up" a political figure while standing in a church pulpit IS NOT familiar.

I'm gonna sleep on it and deal with it tomorrow. Isn't that what we say in the south!

Thanks so much for your input.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. Change religions.

JMCPO

[mitchum]

29. How are Southern Baptist Churches able to keep the tax-exempt...

status, when their ministers are nothing but red-faced partisan political shills?

[Blue_Roses]

31. well, look at who they are supporting

that's the giveaway

[Liberator_Rev]

30. Before your search, take the "Belief-O-matic" test

Beliefnet is a very interesting site that offers among other things a great quiz to help you find the best fit with the religious groups that are closest to your personal belief system, as to opposed to where accident of birth and the like may have placed you. Check out
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html .

Then, keep in mind that there's very little "quality control" in churches, so they vary tremendously one from another and even the same church varies a great deal from one clergy leader to the next.
My own United Methodist Church, like many other denominations, can be fairly Liberal in the North East and the West coast, but quite conservative in the deep South and middle America.

[WoodrowFan]

32. Try the American Baptist Church

At least they ordain women so I don't imagine they can be too far right!

http://www.abc-usa.org/


BTW, I'm Presbyterian so I can't say much else about this Church, don't know much about it.