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OK, Dem candidates, tonight you debate on FOX. Are you ready?

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 03:47 PM
Original message
OK, Dem candidates, tonight you debate on FOX. Are you ready?
Edited on Sun Oct-26-03 04:14 PM by TruthIsAll
Then put on the gloves and start fighting Bush, for once.

1- Remember how Judy Woodruff of CNN treated you at the last debate. So, learn your lesson. Take control from the moderator. Al Sharpton knows how to handle this verbal abuse, but do the rest of you?

2- The three retired CIA who appeared before the Senate Dems on Friday virtually accused Bush of Treason in this unprecedented leak. These guys gave you an opening. Now, who will follow-up?

3- The $87BN for Iraq is mostly going to Halliburton, Carlyle and Bechtel in order to rebuild what Bush destroyed in his preemptive War for Oil. Mention it. And tell us why some of you voted for it. We could use that $87 billion right here. We have more than a few roads to fix and lives to save.

4- Bush is stonewalling on the 9/11 investigation. He is afraid to realease the documents on the saudi connection and on his Aug. 6 CIA briefing. Pound on it. What about the 9/11 victims suit and James Baker representing the Saudis? Who do you think Bush is rooting for?

5- Over 50% of the troops (conservatively) think this war is a crock of Bushit. Some are already going AWOL. Do you think they are justfied in doing so, being that their Commander-in-Thief did exactly that went he walked away from the last YEAR of his National Guard duty rather than take a physical?

6- A recent Nobel-rize winner in Economics has referred to the Bush tax policy as a "form of looting". What about it? If he said it, and Gore said it, will you say it?

7- As Bush ratings continue to fall, there is fear that there soon may be another Trifecta "event". What is being done to prevent this? Or will they just LIHOPA (let it happen on purpose - again)?

8- One of you is a sure winner if all the votes are counted. They were not counted in Georgia 2002 or Florida 2000. The Holt bill is pending in Congress to force all voting machines to produce a paper trail, verified by the voter. Diebold and other Republican touch screen manufacturers are against this. What good are all these debates if this most important issue is not even addressed by all of you?

Now, check out Florida today. Jeb Bush said on Friday he could suspend Broward Supervisor of Elections Miriam Oliphant, but only if she fails to comply with a two-week deadline to "improve her office and meet the recommendations in a highly critical state report".

Miriam has been doing a great job for the Dems in Broward county and is fighting the installation of those paperless touch screen voting machines. The Repubs are getting ready to steal Florida again. And you guys probably don't even know about this. Well, stand up for Miriam.

9- By the way, will just one of you mention that the facts are indisputable and none of you would be running for president if Bush had not stolen the election from Gore. Bush only won the SCOTUS vote 5-4. He lost by 539,000 officially; but really, we know it was over $2 million, before fraud.

10- At least 15 world-class microbiologists have met their untimely and violent deaths in less than one year. The odds of this occuring are at least a trillion to one. Any thoughts on who may be responsible?

Ok, that's it. Will this debate turn into another disaster, or are you finally ready to rumble?
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is Tonights Spectacle A "Theme" Debate?
Are the questions going to be limited to one category?

-- Allen
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Is that really a picture of Mrs. Bucket
er,,,Bouquet, of course, in your sig line? Or is it someone else I ought to recognize but don't?



:hi:
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes... that's Patricia Routledge
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. What time on FOX?
I liked your write up on issues that need discussed! True, v. true.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. 8:00 EST
on Faux."Encore" at midnight.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Thanks! (nm)
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:06 PM
Original message
Right on, TIA
Frankly, I would love to see a free-for-all. Couldn't happen to a "nicer" network.

Take the gloves off guys and girl. Let it rip!

Again, what time does this come on?
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jenk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. will FOX let the Larouchies in today?
you know FOX is just dying to screw this up...
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MASSAFRA Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Know the answers to the tough questions...
What is your favorite movie?

Don't let the moderators maneuver you into attacking each other. The real enemy is Bush!

I hope just one person says that there is a traitor in the White House for leaking Amb. Wilson's wife's name.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Can the candidates work the phrase 'fair and balanced'
into an answer? I would enjoy that.

I'm going to call you on two points--the odds about the microbiologists and Diebold being a 'Republican manufacturer'. Both are a bit "rich"...any links/support?
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The odds are analagous to the JFK assassination of...
Edited on Sun Oct-26-03 04:26 PM by TruthIsAll
15 witnesses out of 1000 dying mysteriously in one year. I did the computation. Its all probability mathematics. I will provide a link shortly.

I assume that there are 1000 world class microbiologists. If there are more, the odds are lower, but still outrageously high that these deaths were not due to a coincidence.

Here is the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=6304
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Don't buy it
at least not without more data.

Problems:

1) Oversimplification of NSC Statistics.

You accept the average NSC death rates without acknowledging that deaths for microbiologists from suicides, homicides, and accidents is certainly far higher than the statistical norm which includes children, shut-ins, and the elderly.

2) Group of 'world-class microbiologists' is defined after-the-fact.

If you want to show me a sealed letter that has the names of the microbiologists you have written down and sent to yourself in 2002 we might be talking. Otherwise members of the group are easily (and likely) manipulated ex post facto to fit the premise.

Your Poisson distribution is very impressive but there really is a much easier and more foolproof way. How many 'world-class microbiologists' died in 2001-2002? That will get us a long way towards seeing whether there is any basis for conspiracy theory here.

:tinfoilhat:
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Its not only that they died, its how they died (murdered, suicided).
You can disagree all you want, but the numbers don't lie.

I will agree, the assumption that there are 1000 microbiologists is only a raw guess on my part (to take advantage of my JFK analysis).

BTW, Do you agree with the JFK numbers? You should.

For your info, this spate of deaths has been noted and is quite unique. I will google for you, but you really should do some homework first. Like I did.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. 16 microbiologists died mysteriously in 4 months: 11/2001- 3/2002
Edited on Sun Oct-26-03 07:43 PM by TruthIsAll
Sure, just a coincidence...In FOUR months?

The mysterious deaths of top microbiologists since 9/11
... The Very Mysterious Deaths of Five Microbiologists ... world-class microbiologists died between 9/11/1 and 3/2/2, and on 6/24/2 yet another microbiologist was added ...
www.whatreallyhappened.com/deadbiologists.html - Similar pages


1.November 12, 2001: The beginning of numerous mysterious deaths of renowned microbiologists. A good place to start learning about this is a Globe and Mail article, which calls these deaths a "tale only the best conspiracy theorist could dream up" yet hard to explain (The Memphis Flyer also provides a good overview, but is much more speculative: ). The first dead microbiologist is Dr. Benito Que, 52, was "an expert in infectious diseases and cellular biology at the Miami Medical School. Police originally suspected that he had been beaten on November 12 in a carjacking in the medical school's parking lot. Strangely enough, though, his body showed no signs of a beating. Doctors then began to suspect a stroke."

2.November 16, 2001: Dead microbiologist: Dr. Don Wiley, 57, disappears during a business trip to Memphis, Tennessee. He had just bought tickets to take his son to Graceland the following day. Police found his rental car on a bridge outside Memphis. His body was later found in the Mississippi River. Forensic experts said he may have had a dizzy spell and fallen off the bridge. Police will only say, "We began this investigation as a missing person investigation. From there it went to a more criminal bent." "Wiley is seen as one of the world's leading researchers of deadly viruses, including HIV and the Ebola virus." Wiley worked at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute at Harvard University, and was an expert on the immune system's response to viral attacks. He was widely regarded as the nation's foremost expert in using special X-ray cameras and mathematical formulas to make high-resolution images of viruses. The FBI is monitoring the I

3.November 21, 2001 (B): Dead microbiologist: World-class microbiologist and high-profile Russian defector Dr. Vladimir Pasechnik, 64, dies of a stroke. Pasechnik, who defected to Britain in 1989, had played a huge role in the development of Russian biowarfare, heading a lab of 400 "with an unlimited budget" and "the best staff available." He says he succeeded in producing an aerosolized plague microbe that could survive outside the laboratory. He was connected to Britain's spy agency and recently had started his own company. "In the last few weeks of his life he had put his research on anthrax at the disposal of the Government, in the light of the threat from bioterrorism."

4,5,6.November 24, 2001: Three more dead microbiologists: A Swissair flight from Berlin to Zurich crashes during its landing approach; 22 are killed and nine survive. Among those killed are Dr. Yaakov Matzner, 54, dean of the Hebrew University school of medicine; Amiramp Eldor, 59, head of the haematology department at Ichilov Hospital in Tel Aviv and a world-recognized expert in blood clotting; and Avishai Berkman, 50, director of the Tel Aviv public health department and businessman.

7.December 10, 2001: Dead microbiologist: "Dr. Robert Schwartz, 57, was stabbed and slashed with what police believe was a sword in his farmhouse in Leesberg, Va. His daughter, who identifies herself as a pagan high priestess, and three of her fellow pagans have been charged." All were part of what they called a coven, and interested in magic, fantasy and self-mutilation. The police have no motive as to why they would have wanted to kill Schwartz, who was a single parent and said to be very close to his children. Schwartz worked at Virginia's Center for Innovative Technology on DNA sequencing and pathogenic microorganisms. He was "a brilliant scientist who had a gift for explaining complex scientific subjects in simple language."

8.December 14, 2001: Dead microbiologist: Nguyen Van Set, 44, dies in an airlock filled with nitrogen in his lab in Geelong, Australia. The lab had just been written up in the journal Nature for its work in genetic manipulation and DNA sequencing. Scientists there had created a virulent form of mousepox. "They realized that if similar genetic manipulation was carried out on smallpox, an unstoppable killer could be unleashed," according to Nature.

9,10.January 2002: Two dead microbiologists: Ivan Glebov and Alexi Brushlinski. Pravda reports that Glebov died as the result of a bandit attack and reports without explanation that Brushlinski was killed in Moscow. Both were "well known around the world" and members of the Russian Academy of Science.

11.February 9, 2002 (B): Dead microbiologist: Victor Korshunov, 56, is bashed over the head and killed at the entrance of his home in Moscow, Russia. He was the head of the microbiology sub-faculty at the Russian State Medical University and an expert in intestinal bacteria.

12.February 11, 2002: Dead microbiologist: Dr. Ian Langford, 40, is found dead, partially naked and wedged under a chair in his home in Norwich, England. When found, his house was described as "blood-spattered and apparently ransacked." He was an expert in environmental risks and disease and a senior Fellow at the University of East Anglia's Centre for Social and Economic Research on the Global Environment. One of his colleagues states: "Ian was without doubt one of Europe's leading experts on environmental risk, specializing in links between human health and environmental risk... He was one of the most brilliant colleagues I have ever had."

13,14.February 28, 2002 (B): Two dead microbiologists in San Francisco: While taking delivery of a pizza, Tanya Holzmayer, 46, is shot and killed by a colleague, Guyang Huang, 38, who then apparently shot himself. Holzmayer moved to the US from Russia in 1989. Her research focused on the part of the human molecular structure that could be affected best by medicine. Holzmayer was focusing on helping create new drugs that interfere with replication of the virus that causes AIDS. One year earlier, Holzmayer obeyed senior management orders to fire Huang.

15.March 24, 2002 (C): Dead microbiologist: David Wynn-Williams, 55, is hit by a car while jogging near his home in Cambridge, England. He was an astrobiologist with the Antarctic Astrobiology Project and the NASA Ames Research Center. He was studying the capability of microbes to adapt to environmental extremes, including the bombardment of ultraviolet rays and global warming.

16.March 25, 2002: Dead microbiologist: Steven Mostow, 63, dies when the airplane he was piloting crashes near Denver, Colorado. He worked at the Colorado Health Sciences Centre and was known as "Dr. Flu" for his expertise in treating influenza, and expertise on bioterrorism. Mostow was "one of the country's leading infectious disease experts" and was associate dean at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center. Three others died in the crash. Mostow's death bring the total number of leading microbiologists killed in a six-month period to at least 15.

August 11, 2002 (E): The New York Times has an article on the mysterious deaths of numerous microbiologists, and strongly argues the entire thing is a coincidence. Says a professor of statistics, ''We can never say for a fact that something isn't a conspiracy. We can just point out the odds that it isn't.''


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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I'm not saying it's not a conspiracy
I'm just saying that your argument is not particularly convincing. Numbers do not lie but the their interpretation certainly can. For example, it seems to me (and I admit I'm unable to back this up) that there could be 5-10,000 microbiologists in the world of the stature mentioned in your post. Also, two older ones were caused by apparent health problems (stroke) and three died in the same accident. Does this skew the odds? You bet.

I choose to look at it from the other side as well--what are the odds that tens or hundreds of people could launch an international conspiracy of this magnitude and successfully keep it under wraps?

I leave you with two quotes:

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
"Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead." - Benjamin Franklin
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Diebold
They are a major source of campaign funds for Republicans. It's public access information.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well fine but
public access information is worthless without a source. :eyes:
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. it's easy to find...
Edited on Sun Oct-26-03 04:47 PM by Neecy
But ask and you shall receive. There are a number of sites where you can look up individual or corporate contributions.

<http://www.tray.com/fecinfo/>

<http://www.opensecrets.org>

Opensecrets.org is a little better organized, and is really a treasure trove of information.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. thanks! n/t
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. And I called you back on both points..
Diebold Voting Machine Owner Committed To Give Votes To Bush in ...
... Diebold spokeswoman Michelle Griggy said O'Dell - who was unavailable to comment personally - has held fund-raisers in his home for many causes, including the ...
www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. this is great stuff
And to follow up on this point:

"6- A recent Nobel-rize winner in Economics has referred to the Bush tax policy as a "form of looting". What about it? If he said it, and Gore said it, will you say it?"

The tax cuts - as well as the 87B for Halliburton - are being looted from the Social Security Trust Fund (and now the military pension fund). Gore was mocked by the media for his promise to put Social Security in a 'lockbox' to prevent exactly this kind of plundering. What will you do in a new Bush era of record deficits to restore the Social Security 'lockbox'? Will they emphasize and expand upon the Great Republican Crime Spree when it comes to Social Security?

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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I Hope I Am Wrong
but I perdict an attack Dean party. If only our candidates would use your talking points, they are great.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. GREAT taling points! I have a minor dispute with one:
5- Over 50% of the troops (conservatively) think this war is a crock of Bushit. Some are already going AWOL. Do you think they are justfied in doing so, being that their Commander-in-Thief did exactly that went he walked away from the last YEAR of his National Guard duty rather than take a physical?


The AWOL issue should be limited to the President and his fellow chickenhawks. I may think our soldiers have valid reasons to go AWOL, you may agree, but this is an issue that won't win swing voters. But when it comes to the Chickenhawk-in-Chief, LET 'IM HAVE IT! ON TOAST!!!
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jenk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-03 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. Edwards will shine, and continue to gain ground
This debate will be his breakout moment, I can feel it :)
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