I'm more convinced that Wellstone, Carnahan, and JFK Jr. were murdered.

[UrbScotty]

To some, I'm preaching to the choir here. To others, I'm not.

How likely is it that you'll get killed in a plane crash?

How likely is it that a US Senator will get killed in a plane crash?

How likely is it that a US Senator or Senate candidate will get killed in a plane crash within a month of the election?

How likely is it that a US Senator or Senate candidate will get killed in a plane crash within a month of the election, and the election is seen as close?

How likely is it that two people of the same political party involved in close US Senate races will get killed in a plane crash within a month of their next election?

How likely is it that they'll get killed within two years of each other?

Probably not much more likely than two planes accidentally crashing into two buildings within fifteen minutes of each other in the same part of New York City on the same beautiful day.

Oh, and which is supposedly the safest mode of travel? Automobile, air, train, or sea?

And, what happened to JFK Jr., Caroline Besette Kennedy, and Lauren Besette (sp?)? Wasn't JFK Jr. groomed to be a good Democratic politician/statesman?

[arcane1]

1. and what were Bush's first words about the Wellstone crash?

"I would like to express my deep condolences for the loss of the Senate"

[UrbScotty]

2. Yeah. Who could lose the Senate?

In order to lose something, you have to HAVE it first!

[Padraig18]

12. You expect sudden verbal eloquence from Chimpy McCokespoon?

"Strategery". 'nuff said.

[La_Serpiente]

3. They were both tragic

However, I am not going to make statement like that unless there is evidence of it. It is much too conincidental, but I have to keep myself in perspective here.

[RuB]

4. It was a tragic loss but I don't see the benefit of killing Wellstone?

The Republicans won the race, the Democrats should have won just off the emotion and out of respect for Wellstone.

[mzmolly]

14. The Republicans were losing in the polls, and they capitalized on the

bullshit spin they placed on the memorial service.

Also, Mondale had about two weeks to put together a campaign. The death of Paul Wellstone paid for the Republicans.

[RuB]

18. Thank you for validating my point

"The Republicans were losing in the polls"

But the origional post was regarding the death of Wellstone not what happened after. I think you give way too much credit to the Republicans. But I must say if I was in charge of the spin after the Wellstone memorial I would have said on national tv for the Republicans to kiss my ass every time they brought up their complaints. Unfortunately the Democrats who were the spokesmen were put on the defensive from the day after.

[shance]

39. Im curious. How prevalent were Electronic Voting Machines in Minnesota?

That is an important question to ask.

[Jackpine Radical]

26. Wellstone was climbing in the polls

on an antiwar platform.

That was not to be tolerated.

[RuB]

34. But by your argument

the death of Wellstone should have ensured whoever his replacement was?! I would sooner believe that the election process in 2000 was subverted (georgia is a glaring example), but to say the corrupt animalistic depraved stupid Republicans would assassinate Wellstone to win something they were obviously already winning I don't get. It was a tragic accident that happened.

[Eloriel]

35. No, their plan backfired

at first because of Mondale's candidacy. They only began to get a foothold when they were able to smear -- mercilessly, cynically, dishonestly -- the Wellstone Memorial.

And I don't discount out and out fraud, either. For one thing, the absentee ballots with Wellstone votes weren't counted at all.

Eloriel

[catzies]

36. Well, one part of their plan worked for them

They leared after Carnahan not to leave widows behind. That's why Asscroft is AG.

When I heard Sheila was on the plane with Paul, my first thought is "Man, their aim is improving. This time, no widow to left to run." :scared:

[DoraFan]

46. Absentee ballots

Why should absentee ballots for Wellstone be counted? They would not be enough to win him the election, and he was no longer a candidate, since by Minnesota law he had to be removed as a candidate. And even if by some fluke he did win, the 2nd place finisher would have been the offical winner since Paul was INELIGIBLE as a candidate.

[Brucey]

5. Repugs are sick bastards.

When Wellstone died, I noticed that nearly everyone I talked to wondered if he had been murdered. I thought it was amazing that we had reached the point where people actually believed that political groups would commit murder. I had always been deemed paranoid, but now Bush* and company have made paranoia seem rational. What the hell happened to our country!?

[Old and In the Way]

6. No assassinations by bullet

Character assassinations and airplane accidents, but no bullets.

[Myra]

8. I have no doubt that

Wellstone, Carnahan, and JFK Jr. were murdered.
I consider it a fact.

But the BFEE does use bullets as well, e.g.,
when they tried to assinate Reagan.

[Padraig18]

7. The odds?

The odds are much greater if you are vigorously campaigning all over a state in a small plane than if you are not, I would hazard to guess. :eyes:

[birdman]

9. I suppose the NTSB under Clinton covered up the Carnahan murder

I guess they were a part of the BFEE.

Slick Willie was in on the strawberry heist, too.

[Padraig18]

11. And Elvis!

We can never forget that Elvis was murdered by the BFEE, too... :tinfoilhat:

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. They killed Buddy Holly, Richie Valens and the Big Bopper too

[Padraig18]

23. Three Mile Island!

I bet they set that up just to make President Carter look bad.

[AquariDem]

43. And poor little Kenny

:eyes:

[DoraFan]

48. Those Bastards!

[TruthIsAll]

27. The Great Coincidence Cometh - Birdman, right on cue..

Beware, Conspiracists, the Birdman will get ya'.

He lives for these moments. Out of the woods, he comes to work.
It's a Bird, Its a plane, no..its Birdman..

Don't you dare ever consider a BFEE conspiracy,
Oh me,
For then you will have to answer to the Birdman, you see

[birdman]

37. So Clinton covered up the Carnahan murder for the Bushes

Apparently you believe that and you don't care.

If Carnahan was murdered then Clinton has to be involved.


Do you believe that ?




It’s a plot, Mandrake

[CaptainMidnight]

49. Ridiculous

Classic misdirection and intentional straw man argument.

"Clinton has to be involved."

RIGHT!

Captain Mike

[DrGonzoLives]

52. Yeah

Because there is NO SUCH THING as coincidence. Nope. If any plane goes down, at any time, it must be a right-wing conspiracy!

Oh, unless it's a Republican that dies. In which case, it is simply an unfortunate accident. These things happen.

[HereSince1628]

10. I think I'll keep the tin foil in the kitchen drawer

Ok I'm not claiming to know any details but just pointing out some questions that might help you get out from under the tin foil.

"How likely is it that you'll get killed in a plane crash?"

Analysis of risk must be conditioned
chance of dying in a plane crash is conditioned by the need to be in a plane crash, which is conditioned by the type of plane, its age, routes, weather etc.

Planes DO go down every year. So although the risk is small it is real.

"How likely is it that a US Senator will get killed in a plane crash?" & "How likely is it that a US Senator or Senate candidate will get killed in a plane crash within a month of the election?"

Campaigning senators put a lot of time in the air, expecially in small planes going to rural airports and often flying strange schedules.

I would guess the closer an election is the more likely it is that candidates will be out "barn storming" to earn votes in remote places.

"How likely is it that they'll get killed within two years of each other?"

this is a joint probability, it will be the product of the annual air crash fatalities times the probability associated with the probability of a candidate being onboard such flights I suspect it is small but very real.


Probably not much more likely than two planes accidentally crashing into two buildings within fifteen minutes of each other in the same part of New York City on the same beautiful day.

There is an implied non sequitur. Even if the probabilities of events are identical it doesn't mean there is an underlying identical motivation.


I am aware of many occurrences of celebrities dying in small planes. My earliest recollection is of Buddy Holly, but one of my favorite folk singers...Stan Rogers also died in a plane accident (actually a fire on an Air Canada flight)

What's the probability that my favorite singers die in air crashes?
Also very small, but it happened.

[goforit]

13. You are absolutely right!!!........Dead men tell no lies!!!

Something the Bushies don't understand.

[mzmolly]

15. I with you on this...

I'm at about 60/40. 60% think they were murdered, 40% ???

[Flying_Pig]

16. Look, getting control of the Senate was the #1 priority of the Bush

White House. Why? Over and above the normal political reasons, with a Senate majority, Bush could stop;

1. Impeachment proceedings

2. Serious Senate investigations into 9/11, Iraq, Enron, Cheney, and a whole host of other crimes.

So much was at stake in getting control of the Senate for these criminals, that I would not put it above them to do ANYTHING necessary to affect the outcome of the election, including the killing of leading candidates (ie: Wellstone, Carnahan). And if anyone doesn't think this bunch is THAT evil, or hasn't committed crimes like murder before, they are truly naive.

Where you lose me though, is with JFK Jr. Remove his name from your assertions, and it makes more sense.

[UrbScotty]

17. The thing is, look how much JFK Jr. had going for him.

He was almost 40, and he appeared to be a rising star in the political field. I'm sure some hard-core GOPers were wanting to stop him before he hit the big time.

[Karenina]

19. Can you imagine the slap-down

JFK Jr. could have effected with one televised eyeball roll at the *dim son? Verbally and in print he had the ability and machine in place to upset quite a few apple carts. Never mind the charm, class and good looks. I'd LOVE to believe it was "just an accident." However, I am no longer in denial about BFEE tactics. It is CLEAR to me that NONE of them would blink an eyelash if vast tracts of this beautiful earth were rendered uninhabitable or if BILLIONS of human beings perished. Their aim is control of the world's resources. Nothing short of Mussolini's or Marie Antoinette's fate will stop them. Call me a cynic.

[Flying_Pig]

22. Nope. Don't buy it. Too risky, and JJ was not yet in the political

playfield, so where's the threat? A threat maybe in 2008, had he lived, and had he gone into politics, and, and, and..... See what I mean? With any crime/murder, there is ALWAYS the risk of getting caught. Why would they take that risk, when there was so little threat there at the time? Why would they risk everything they had planned (9/11, Iraq, world domination, etc.) to take JJ down? Answer?: They wouldn't.

I'm with you on the Wellstone and Carnahan cases, and I am also willing to believe the BFEE was in on JFK's murder, but not JJ.

[jumptheshadow]

29. I agree with you

I am much more inclined to believe that JFK Jr.'s crash was a combination of pilot error and unbelievable stress. It was a real tragedy. He could have represented us well, I think.

I have no opinion on Wellstone and Carnahan.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. JFK, Jr. died because he was pussywhipped.

Bad weather, late night, relatively inexperienced pilot. Caved in to the demands of his wife (something of a shrew as I understand it) and her sister that "we need to be there TONIGHT!" and died because of it.

NOT a conspiracy, sorry.

[shance]

40. Remember that Prospect article about how the Repubs wanted Wellstone

taken out and that was before the crash ocurred.

It was a spine chiller.

[mhr]

20. ih8thegop, As A Commercial Pilot, You Are Barking Up The Wrong Tree

Yet Again!

If you would like to discuss this intelligently without inviting all the DU conspiracy heads to join the chorus, fine.

But stop stirring this pot over and over again.

Professional pilots have told you repeatedly, why we believe that most aviation accidents are pilot error pure and simple.

I am very disappointed with the conspiracy crowd at DU. I can honestly say that the DU crowd is acting as ignorantly as the FR crowd does on other issues.

[JackRiddler]

25. Well said!

"Professional pilots have told you repeatedly, why we believe that most aviation accidents are pilot error pure and simple."

Thank you for telling us about aviation accidents! Now tell us what professional pilots think about assassinations.

[JackDragna]

24. You use fallacious logic.

The chances of two senators dying is unfortunately higher than you'd think. Senators on the campaign trail go plane-hopping quite a bit, increasing their odds of dying in a crash. As to their chances of dying near an election..when else are they going to be doing the kind of travel they'd need small aircraft for?

The problem with arguments like yours is that you take a very narrowly-focused correlation and state that it necessitates causation by your preferred method (political assassination). Let's, however, look at this another way. There are many kinds of famous people that might routinely fly by way of small aircraft: politicians, musicians, sports stars and the like. If you consider all the times that all those groups of people rode in small airplanes, chances are that at some point, there's going to be a set of crashes with people connected to each other in some manner. It could be members of the same band, members of the same political party, teammates on the same sports team or what have you.

It is therefore logically unsound to compare the deaths of Carnahan and Wellstone as evidence for connected political assassinations. By mere chance, the odds of something like this happening are small, but they exist. You're making a mistake many Americans make..because an event with a small chance of happening occurs, you assume an underlying cause that connects the events.

Now, logic nonwithstanding, I also consider the idea that the Republicans would kill these men before the election to be ludicrous. Let's accept, for the sake of argument, that Mel Carnahan was an assassination victim. The result of that assassination was that his wife won the election. Are you seriously telling me the Republican Party would push their luck again and try something that had failed? Were it not for the hatchet job done by the right on the "memorial service," Walter Mondale would be a U.S. senator. I've worked on political campaigns and let me tell you, nothing is worse to deal with than sympathy votes for candidates. Your opponent in an election could be a Klansman, but if his dog were run over by a car shortly before the election, you'd be in serious trouble.

The Republicans pull dirty tricks, but they're not stupid.

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. I don't think the republican plan

was to have Mrs. Carnahan in the race. They made sure Mrs. Wellstone was with Paul when he died so they didn't have to deal with another senator's wife being elected.

The republicans are depending on people to think exactly the way you do. Who woulda thunk those Senator's could have both died shortly before their elections....had to be an accident. Not. JMCPO


And I beg to differ that the republicans are not stupid. :7

[Noordam]

28. I am not a comm pilot just pilot with a multi-engine rating

Comm pilots read too many accident reports and yes too many of them are pilot error.............

But the CIA and others also know about flying and pilot "errors".

The JFK accident, I am 50/50 on. The Wellstone case I am more 80% it was murder. Those were professional pilots not weekend pilots with the "get-home-itis", and because of that I have problems with that accident.

[TreasonousBastard]

31. So, you know what happens...

all too often when a guy like JFK, with no instrument rating and very few flight hours, is in a hurry to get home at night. I asked around when that happened and every pilot I talked to said it was pretty much a suicide mission.

There are a lot of flaky pilots out there. One I know of did his own maintenance. The FAA looked at what he did when his plane went down and pulled his ticket on the spot. (You can't save money on bolts by buying them in Home Depot!)

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/

http://www.airliners.net/news/index.news.main?sheadline=Watching%20small%20airports

Here's my favorite-- 16 fatal incidents in the past 10 days, most in small planes:

http://www1.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm

Sometimes, a coincidence is just a coincidence.

I would be interested in knowing if Republicans who fly around as much as Democrats in campaigns have more access to jets. Jets in general aviation seem to have a much better safety record. And they don't have that many kids flying air courier and small charter planes. Kids hungry enough to go out in bad weather. Those courier flights are dangerous.

Having a commercial ticket doesn't make you a great pilot. Commercial pilots have a death rate of 101 per 100,000, and most of that is small planes.

[bywho4who]

33. Wellstone was an outspoken proponent

against "W", Coleman was the small fish in this deal!:wow:

[Yupster]

38. It is very unikely that I will die if a small plane crashes

since I have never ridden in a small plane. Neither have most people.

[TrogL]

41. Chances I'll be killed in a plane crash

Fairly good, given the pilots I have to fly with.

I fly as part of my work. Some of the pilots I'm with are low hours and used to certain routes. Occasionally they get pulled off their regular run to take me somewhere, often into inclement conditions.

I've already had some close calls.

[neebob]

42. I think JFK Jr. is less likely than

the other two, and I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other on them, but it wouldn't surprise me if one or all three were murdered for whatever reason.

When was the last bigtime assassination attempt - 20 years ago? Has law enforcement gotten that good at catching shooters on the ground, or do they just not try it anymore because of the likelihood of being videotaped? Where are all the crazed lone would-be assassins? Perhaps they're tinkering with airplanes. Or building bombs. Perhaps they've joined Al Qae-da.

[AquariDem]

44. It's possible to have a lot of coincidence

but no real relation between events. But what can I say? You and others are already convinced. :shrug:

[CaptainMidnight]

45. Captain Mike's 2 cents

I've been back and forth on all of this.

I'm no experienced pilot. I don't know much about statistical probabilities. I have, however, spent a serious two years studying the Bush Cabal, their history, their crimes, and their sociopathic personalities.

I'm convinced that these guys will do ANYTHING to attain and maintain power and money. 9-11 was an inside job. You won't pin it on them, but they did it. Or their friends in high places with the means to do so, did it.

JFK Jr. had been rumoured to have been seeking Moynihan's old Senate seat from New York. He'd confided in friends, and according to Skolnick, had been approached by the Gore people about being the VP candidate on their ticket.

I don't believe all that I read for sure, and I'm very cautious about Skoknick, but he's been so bloody right about alot of stuff. But aside from one "conspiracy theorist's" opinion or analysis, I just go with "my gut" on these matters, my gut mind you, being a highly-informed one after these past two years.

Look at how much people ridicule Ruppert, and it turns out he's been 95% right about everything, Peak Oil, 9-11, Iraq, CIA, drugs, stolen elections, etc.

I come at all this CT "crap" as a former non-believer. I initially believed the "official" 9-11 account. I thought blacks were just whiners when they insisted that that CIA was flooding their neighborhoods with crack in the 80's. Again, I come at all of this with wide open ears and eyes, and as a former "athiest" or "agnostic," I've now become something of an "apostate."

I've learned on the 'net you go down lotsa rabbit holes, many of them unfruitful, many of them deliberately misinformative. Like ALL of that crap about "no plane hit the Pentagon, it was a missile." Puh-leeze. It sure looks fishy, but in the end, it's meant to distract us from the real story.

Forming an overall opinion, my theory on all of this is to see myself as an "expert character witness." There's also the very potent theory of QUI BONO?

Iran Contra. October Surprise. Operation Northwoods. Gulf of Tonkin. Flight 800. Attack on the Liberty. The name BUSH turns up quite often, here. Just look at the past four years, and all the hijinx pulled to get JR. BUSH into the White House. All these prominent Democrats' planes falling outta the sky.

Sorry about the unintentional pun, but if JFK JR. ran for the Senate, much less President, he woulda been "bulletproof." He woulda been a STAR. If you put yourself in the mindset of the "conspirators," it was best to kill him NOW, before he became a political movement all by himself. If they shot him while a candidate or an office holder, or had his plane go down then, it woulda been too obvious that it WAS a conspiracy. Especially with all the information we have on the INTERNET now, which wasn't available, much less at our fingertips during his father's murder, just imagine!

If it weren't for the Internet, do you think Operation Northwoods would have become the "conspiracy Rosetta Stone" that it has become?

What with COINTELPRO, past and present, and all the other illegal and intrusive stuff, and the right up until his death FBI surveillance on John Lennon, do any of you think that John John WASN'T under constant watch, or his phone, apartment bugged?

Again, I NEVER thought this way until the events of the past coupla years forced me to.

All three were most definitely "taken out" in my very well-informed yet unprofessional opinion. I hate thinking this way, but the "character" and "track record" of those that stood to benefit keep screaming out alarm bells to me that I simply can't ignore.

Add to that the recent Anthrax Attacks on the Dems, which remain "unsolved" even tho the trail leads right to the door of the CIA at Fort Detrick, Maryland. Add to that Cheney's ordering the FBI to wiretap, survey, any polygraph members of Congress and the 9-11 Commission because they may have spoken to the Press. It all adds up.

Ironically, it comes down to THEM being paranoid. NOT US.

Grow up. Face reality in America, 2003. THEY DID IT.

Captain Mike

[RebelOne]

47. I think Wellstone is a given, but I am undecided about Carnahan

And I believe that JFK Jr.'s death was due to pilot error. Plus he did not have an
instrument rating to be flying in bad weather.

[CaptainMidnight]

50. kick

once for more input?

Captain Mike

[DrGonzoLives]

51. Well

How likely is it that you'll get killed in a plane crash?

I forget the exact odds, but it's fairly low.

How likely is it that a US Senator will get killed in a plane crash?

Probably slightly higher, given the fact that they simply fly more often.

How likely is it that a US Senator or Senate candidate will get killed in a plane crash within a month of the election?

Given that they're making a lot of campaign stops, not to mention having to go between their state and Washington, D.C. for votes, they might be flying more.

How likely is it that a US Senator or Senate candidate will get killed in a plane crash within a month of the election, and the election is seen as close?

"Seen as close" really doesn't mean much. "Seen as close" could just be the media hyping a candidate, and not a real indication of how the vote will go.

How likely is it that two people of the same political party involved in close US Senate races will get killed in a plane crash within a month of their next election?

See above. It applies to all politicians.

How likely is it that they'll get killed within two years of each other?

Once again, see above.

The funny thing about odds is that while the odds may be heavily against something, bad things do happen. Simply saying "the odds are against it" does not mean that it was a conspiracy.

Note to conspiracy theorists: I am not saying that the BFEE is not involved in bad things. Nor that they are participating in conspiracies. So please, if responding to this post, try not to dredge that straw man out for once, mmmk?

[CaptainMidnight]

53. what is straw man

argument about mentioning the very real fact that the Bushies ARE involved in several conspiracies going back to Hitler and WWII, right up thru Iran-Conta, stolen elections, and 9-11?

Captain Mike