Who lost tonight's debate?

[tridim]

Poll question: Who lost tonight's debate?

I omitted Lieberman because he's probably everyone's first choice.

This poll isn't meant to be negative, but it's becoming clear (at least to me) that we need to weed the field before the next debate.

[robsul82]

1. DK.

Looked REALLY whiny tonight.

Later.

RJS

[Renew Deal]

3. Funny, I thought he was better.

He was right about the Dean ad, and made good points.

[robsul82]

9. Great, but...

...Dean had a fine answer ready because he KNEW Kucinich was going to bring it up, and DK didn't STOP bringing it up. And then his horrid closing statement just sucked...

Later.

RJS

[Evanstondem]

5. I have to agree

He also kept stumbling on the number of murders in Detroit.

[Melinda]

2. Hey - You are missing a DINO

Where's Joe? I need Joe up there if I am gonna vote. ;)

[Renew Deal]

4. lol, read the poll.

[Melinda]

13. I DID read it Bleachers, hence my statement.

No Joe, no vote. ;)

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Melinda]

15. Like being a communist is a bad thing?

LOL. ;)

[jenk]

6. Kucinich is on his last legs, so is Braun

One of the moderators brought up how Carol is very low on money, she might be forced to step down soon.

Kucinich has said his piece already, we know where he stands and we know he's a good guy. But he has no chance and needs to get out of the way.

[Renew Deal]

7. Why is this so negative on Kucinich?

Did I miss something?

[Loyal]

10. cause he sucked tonight

Kerry was so much better than him.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Kerry's closing statement on guns

just seemed kind of strange for a closing statement.

Kucinich's closing statement was not his best, but Kerry's was just kind of out there, despite his strong performance earlier.

[ginantonic40]

40. My take

on Kerrys closing statement was that it was a subtle shot at Dean for his gun stance and rating with the NRA. Which kind of fits with my critique of Kerry in my post below.

[Josh]

42. I think it was to try to get Dean to respond,

since Kerry has a big disagreement with Dean on guns. Didn't work, but I don't think it did him too much damage.

[ginantonic40]

47. My take on Kerrys close

was that it was a calculated jab at Deans gun stance and his good rating with the NRA.

[Evanstondem]

95. Kerry's jab made for an incoherent closing statement

He started with gun control but instead of relating this to urban crime, which would have made sense in Detroit, he tried to link it to standing up to special interests. That seems like a stretch to me.

[janekat]

61. The black commmunity is concerned about guns & gun control that's why

Kerry brought it up.

[JohnKleeb]

63. I am too, btw white boy

[tsipple]

84. Re: African-Americans and Guns

African-Americans are not universally in favor of additional gun control by any means.

Besides, gun control is not exactly a salient issue in New Hampshire, and that's Kerry's (only) battle right now. I also don't think gun control is a winner in these paranoid post-9/11 circumstances. ("The terrorists have guns, and gun control won't stop them.") We just got through a debate about arming pilots, with Barbara Boxer leading the charge.

Dennis Kucinich also tried to bring up that issue obliquely when he talked about his meeting with Detroit-area activists affected by homicide. He could have done much better.

[robsul82]

11. Well...

..truth hurts.

Later.

RJS

[IranianDemocrat]

12. He was horrible!

.

[Bushknew]

98. Clark was stammering tonight.

Is Clark ready for prime time?

He always resorts to the most tiered of political cliches and platitudes. His stick is getting to be so predictable, some specificity to direct questioning would be so refreshing.

Look, none of Dems are great orators, except for Sharpton.

Sharpton is the only one who gets his message out concisely, specifically and effectively.

[Padraig18]

14. He was terrible

Shrill, alternating with whiny...

[Renew Deal]

17. Looks like Dean supporters had their feelings hurt.

That's the only explanation I can think of.

[Padraig18]

18. Huh?

What's the logic on that 'thinking'?

[robsul82]

19. See, Padraig...

...HE got HIS feelings hurt, so now he's being like DK - whiny!

Later.

RJS

[Renew Deal]

26. Here you go...

Dean supporters are pissed at Kucinich for calling him on the ad. Therefore they are boo-hooing that Kucinich sucked. People here have left Kusinich alone until tonite. I don;t think it's a coincidence.

[Padraig18]

30. Riiiiggghhhhttt...

We absolutely couldn't have thought he absolutely sucked tonight, could we? :eyes:

[Melinda]

35. You skew a poll and then complain about the results...

I don't get it. Kind of reminds me of Frank Whathisname, the GOP pollster on MSNBC.


I have stated time and time again that Kucinich has my heart... but Dean has my head. Dennis can't win, as much as I want him too and that's just fact.

Regardless, no one here will ever catch me verbally assaulting any of the candidates running for Prez... unless calling Lieberman a DINO is considered an insult in which case I'm a bad, bad girl.


**On edit... sorry Bleachers, you didn't post the poll, you were simply the one telling me to read it (although I had read it already) - please disregard the topic and immediately following line. ;)

[tsipple]

88. Kucinich Sucked on the Ad, Too

Dean read the ad copy -- which gave him a chance to restate his ad's message, of course -- and I (and all the viewers) are thinking, "Well, that seems perfectly reasonable. What's Dennis on about?"

Mind you, the back story (not expressed in the debate) was just plain dumb. Kucinich contacting the Bush-controlled federal government to try to censor a fellow Democrat's political speech? What was he thinking?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. These are the usual Kucinich bashers

so I'm not too upset.

[Padraig18]

27. I'm not a DK basher.

Why would you say that?

[robsul82]

31. I've never said more than two words on DK before...

...and I've been positive. But he was a whiny little GURRRRRRL tonight, and there's no two ways around it. Attacks Dean on the ad. Wanders right into Dean's trap of, "Hey, I wasn't talking about you," and then he whines some more when the moderator won't let him keep whining. Complains no one's letting him talk. Horrible closing. He sucked, sucked, SUCKED tonight, and that's just too bad.

Later.

RJS

[Padraig18]

36. The only negative things I've ever said...

... would be when I call certain DK supporters on their fuzzy math and completely anecdotal, feels-good-let's-sing-Kumbaya 'proof' for why he is the 'most electable' candidate. About DK himself, I have said he is a good and decent man and a good Congressman.

Edited for typos

[JohnKleeb]

41. lets sing kumbaya why I would love to

;) btw the last thing I am thinking about in the primary is electablity. Thanks for the taunt, now I am gonna go sing ;).

[Padraig18]

45. LOL!

Oddly, John, you usually stick to factual arguments. :)

[JohnKleeb]

52. Well

whatever looking for the peace and shit.

[no name no slogan]

89. Well,....

Considering DK didn't even get a chance to SPEAK until 1/2 hour into the damned debate, do you wonder why he might seem "whiny?"

Out of the whole 1 1/2 hours, he maybe got TEN minutes to speak, AT MOST. Just like the last debate. ALthough he's the only elected official up there who has CONSISTENTLY opposed the Iraq war and the Patriot act, and is the strongest by far on the issues that allow democrats to WIN elections.

And Dean was innaccurate in his ad. And now, apparently, he would have voted AGAINST the $87bil, although when DK confronted him on it in the last debate, he said he was FOR it. Why the hell wasn't Dean called out for that?

[Eloriel]

101. I've alerted on your sexist post

Shame on you.

Eloriel

[Mairead]

133. Thanks, Eloriel, you beat me to it

I added mine to yours.

[CWebster]

16. Kerry

He doesn't seem to understand that the more he goes after Dean the more he falls in the estimation of Dean's supporters...And there are a lot of Dean supporters.

If Kucinich suffered for being "whiny" what about Kerry's constant digs?

Not a great night for Clark.

Sharpton shone on.

[Mz Pip]

20. The format for these

debates sucks. It's nuts to expect any thoughtful candidate to whittle down how he/she would solve economic problems in one minute. I certainly didn't get any new material from any of them.

I like Al's zingers, especially the one about the watermelon seed. I liked Clark's "McCarthyism" response to the question about Shelton. I even liked Lieberman's comment about no one being madder about the Bush presidency than he and Al Gore.

Aside from that, nothing really stood out.

I am hoping that there will be more televised Town Hall meetings. That's where the candidate's individuality is revealed and specifics of programs are laid out.

MzPip
:dem:

[Justice]

37. Not a Good Format For

Any real discussion. I agree.

I thought some of the questions were better. However, sometimes the questions were multi-part and overly simplistic - it is ridiculous to say - when are you going to balance the budget - like someone could actually predict this with certainity. The questioners seemed to prefer simple (even if wrong or widely speculative) answers rather than the truth.

I think Sharpton is magnificent as a debate participant. I loved his answer to Cameron's asking what the middle class would do share the burden...

[quaker bill]

21. As I can't vote for Joe

Then Kucinich. His answers were not clear and direct. He failed to articulate the good ideas his campaign endorses.

On the other hand it is hard for any of them to appear to truly suck as long as Lieberman is on stage. He takes whining and personal attacks to a new low every time we hear from him.

[SahaleArm]

24. Attack Dog.

Holy Joe should quit pretending he's a Democrat.

[tridim]

22. Hey Dean voters...

I'd like to know specifically why you think he lost. Anyone?

[JustJoe]

28. I did not like how when he coughed

he put just the tips of his fingers
over his mouth. A man should put their
whole hand over there mouth when they cough.

[hippiechick]

56. That and his momma dressed him funny tonight ....

GAWD was that suit/tie a mismatch !!!!!! :puke:



:hippie:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

59. I could tell he was trying not to blink so much

and it threw him off a little. He
didn't blink enough this time instead
of too much. He should blink about once
every five seconds.

[HFishbine]

129. Clark

Had the worst tie/suit mismatch. Polka dots and pinstripes?

At least we are talking about what's important.

[tridim]

39. C'mon people there are 21 of you

None of you have a specific reason for voting Dean as the loser?

[robsul82]

44. Psst...

...they're all DK people upset at my and Padraig's pointing out how whiny and crappy Kucinich was tonight. :)

Later.

RJS

[JohnKleeb]

46. yeah sure we all are

I aint pissed at all, just get me when you are singing kumbaya. We arent the vengeful type. Ive yet to vote honestly. Now I am gonna go look for a singing partner, where the hell is she?

[kimchi]

93. I'll sing with ya, sweetie.

I'd rather sing Imagine, though.

But seriously, I don't think DK did well either, atlhough I only saw the last half. He is still RIGHT though. Maybe he or Carol can get on the ticket after we have 8 years of a peaceful and prosperous democratic administration.

[JohnKleeb]

99. Ah its ok

Well if hes right than why dont people get the shit realized. I dunno 8 years from now he will be 66.

[tridim]

51. I'm guessing that it's mostly scared Freepers

voting for Dean as loser.

[Clark Can WIN]

76. Where do you get scared freepers

When Kristol and it seems all of the wild right seems to be just warm and fuzzy all over at the prospect of a Dean nominee?

[tridim]

105. Because I think Freepers fear Dean

They been told he's a radical Leftist and yet they know he can beat Bush. The Rove thing is BS, reverse psychology.

[sendero]

125. because....

... they are as clueless about elections as they are about military adventurism?

Remember, these folks *simply do not understand* why so many Americans are pissed about this war. They hang in their own circles, pat each other on the back, and are *sure* that there are only a handful of Americans who are not with them.

[janekat]

64. Dean really got slammed tonight a few times and didn't really recover

very well. Then he got booed when he went after Clark. I think he lost ground with the audience because I think that gave Clark a "sympathy" bounce. Noticed they cheered Clark a little louder after that. Don't forget - Clark is popular with black voters and Dean isn't. I think the black community was well represented at that debate.

[nbsmom]

106. You keep posting this garbage

This is the 2nd thread I've seen you make this claim.

What B.S.

The only person who got booed tonight was Holy Joe when HE went after Clark, saying he (Joe) was happy that Clark had gotten in the race and given him a run for the 'Bush lite' title.

Okay. I'm getting off my soapbox now. Feel free to go back to whatever it was you were smoking...

[juajen]

110. Excuse me,

He certainly did get booed after picking on Clark. I watched that debate very closely.

[nbsmom]

113. Guess we weren't watching the same debate.

I've recorded the debate, and IIRC it was Lieberman, not Dean, who got booed for saying that Clark was taking the heat off (response to the Gwen Ifill question, Joe, you are considered Bush Lite.)

Perhaps there's another part of the debate... that only aired in your time zone?

[Clark Can WIN]

73. I thought Dean looked bored

and apathetic tonight. That was my perception. He's looked that way for a couple of weeks to me.

[FrenchieCat]

75. Dean lost on taxes and foreign policy...

His joke that he has as much experience as Bush did when he was Selected....was not very reassuring......that Dean will surround himself with advisors is a eerily familiar story...and look at the mess that we are in....

No, Dean lost....Because for Americans, between War and Taxes...there is not much left....Balancing a budget just ain't gonna get it.

[Capn Sunshine]

86. IF you truly believe that , no wonder Clarks your guy

However , in the real world, the War is a dead issue, taxes are unfair and brutally ridiculous and we know it, and it's all about a better vision,starting with the economy. Clarks faltering candidacy can't make up for this lack of cohesive plan; they have yet to cobble this together.

[ModerateMiddle]

53. Debates are not a positive venue for Dean

he rarely does well. His facial expressions are petulant, he deminishes anyone other than the "5 people who can beat President Bush", his natural way of speaking isn't appropriate in the debate setting, and he looks very uncomfortable trying to look presidential, by struggling to keep his speaking slower, and it just looks very uncomfortable.

[Cat Atomic]

29. I've got nothing against Clark, but I think he lost this one.

He never got specific about anything- even when pressed for specifics- and he seemed to just sort of lose the audience mid-thought.

I actually thought Kucinich did well.

[IranianDemocrat]

34. I'm a Clark supporter and I agree.

.

[janekat]

66. I thought Clark did quite well. He answered 2 or 3 questions very well

The rest of his answers were ok.

[Bucky]

77. Another Clarkie voting "for" Clark

Twice my man was asked about specific statements that he made that seem (as presented in the debate) to support the war. Clark is quite clearly, and always has been, against the war. By not taking this red herring straight on now, he's letting the little monster live.

Clark is simply not as smooth and practiced as his opponents. I think he'd make a first rate president, but right now he's only a second rate politician. His failure to blow the distortions of his record out of the water are really making me question my support for him.

What the Big Dog showed us is that you take slurs head on--don't let them live through to the next news cycle. Clark is letting the "supported the war" lie circulate further by not killing it. I'm guessing that he has handlers who are treating him like a Democratic Reagan: "Just keep it vague, boss. Don't get dragged into particulars."

Well that sort of glittery non-specifics works with Republican voters. Democrats won't buy it. We want to hear a candidate nail the issues and show she or he understands the job they're applying for. Another perf like tonight's, and I'm afraid Clark's candidacy is gonna fizzle.

[Eloriel]

102. Clark aways has been against the war?

Oh, puhleeeze. And then what did you dream? He was absolutely orgasmic in the British column he wrote about the victory, the liberation.

It was disgusting.

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

115. Still at it?

How many times must you be told: describing a crushing military victory as a crushing military victory is not 'orgasmic,' (why do you keep using that word, by the way? Literary compensation for a real-world deficiency?). Neither is describing a well-run war as a well-run war expressing support for the war itself. What was he supposed to do, as an expert commentator: say the U.S. lost? Say the troops did a horrible job? Say the military sucks, because he disagreed with the way Bush got us into this war? Come back to the light. Come back to the real world -- the one that existed before the Kool-aid started flowing. In that world, paid military analysts describe a textbook war as a textbook war -- which this one was. They sometimes express their reservations about it, which Clark did:

As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt. And especially Mr Blair, who skillfully managed tough internal politics, an incredibly powerful and sometimes almost irrationally resolute ally, and concerns within Europe. Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced. And more tough questions remain to be answered.

Is this victory? Certainly the soldiers and generals can claim success. And surely, for the Iraqis there is a new-found sense of freedom. But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven’t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed.

Let’s have those parades on the Mall and down Constitution Avenue — but don’t demobilize yet. There’s a lot yet to be done, and not only by the diplomats.

Perhaps this sounds 'orgasmic' to the orgasm-deficient; to the rest of us, it sounds like thoughtful, balanced analysis, which turned out to be eerily prescient -- it's what one would expect from a gifted person who spent 34 years serving his country in the military.

[CWebster]

124. Because she understands the images which turn on

cowardly men who live vicariously through the roles of other men who they see as macho ideals.

And your advertisement for Goldwater reflects on your own inappropriateness.

[Mairead]

135. "describing a crushing military victory..."

... as a crushing military victory is not orgasmic".

But describing the invasion of a disabled country and massacre of its citizens as a crushing military victory is as appropriate as a guy bragging down at the bar that he really beat the shite out of the disabled 12-y.o. next door. Especially when the leaders of what little military they had were bribed to take a fall.

Try to be less madly partisan, huh?

[FrenchieCat]

78. I disagree.....

Sharpton didn't talk specific but he won. No, what Clark did was show that he would be a better leader than Dean...and more forceful than Kerry......and that he's from a different place...

He did not lose!

Dean lost because he flubbed the Foreign policy question......NO more experience that Bush had....now, that is not an answer we wanted to hear.

[tsipple]

92. Gwen Interrupted Clark, Even

Pressed Clark for an answer. That was an awkward moment.

[ginantonic40]

32. No clear loser

Just as there was no clear winner. Clark certainly didn't help himself. He sounded scripted and tentative. Maybe he just needs some more time to get his feet under himself. I wish Kerry would quite prefacing every answer with a shot at Dean. I Realize he has to overtake Dean but I wish he do it by illuminating his positions and policies. I was disappointed in Dean. Maybe disappointed is the wrong word. Maybe underwhelmed. I had just watched a interview with him on C-Span in which I thought he was excellent.

Of course the whole premise of these debates are a farce. They're not debates. They're contest to see who can come up with the best 1 minute sound bite. I mean, shit, come on .... "Explain in one minute how you are going to solve our problems in the Middle-East" "Explain in 1 minute how you are going to solve the country's economic problems".

In light of that format I guess I'd have to say Sharpton was the winner. My wife and I both gave Al a couple of 'Amen brother's' after his some of his responses. If he doesn't get a prime time speech at the convention it is a serious mistake.

[SEAburb]

33. Dean, his stupid comment about how

his national security experience is the same as Bush's was in '00. Yea and Bush has done such a great job. Boy, now the thought of Dean as pres really makes feel secure.

[JustJoe]

38. Irony has no place in American politics.

Then he added that he had as much foreign policy experience
as Clinton, Carter and Reagan. That further confused the people
who were already confused by the Bush remark.

[SahaleArm]

43. Called out.

Kerry called him out and buried Dean on that one.

[CWebster]

49. Hell, Kerry was the one that was a sucker enough to be misled by Bush

After all, Kerry has had the opportunity to spearhead opposition to Bush and he failed from his position in the Senate - why would he qualify for greater leadership?

[SahaleArm]

62. That may be true...

But in the debate format Dean left himself open.

[CWebster]

68. No he didn't

Kerry started with his usual attacks everytime he opened his mouth- always dredging up his desperate tactics. His long-winded pontificating is dull and uninspiring and his references to his military past is hypocritical pandering.

Never does he say going into Iraq was wrong, what he says is Bush went about it wrong.

Typical sleezy political side-step and evasive manuevering that Kerry is prone to.

[drfemoe]

111. Not only that

But ..

Question: Mr. Kerry, What is your position on the economy?
Kerry: Let me tell you Governor Dean's position ...

huh??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21551-2003Oct26.html

[annxburns]

50. The debates

....just suck. I learn alot more by viewing the candidates one on one. None of them and I mean NONE of them are good at a 9 car pileon except for Sharpton.

They should hold a debate in Iowa with Dean and Gep
They should hold a debate in NH with Dean, Kerry, Edwards and Clark

Maybe then we would get a sense of what is going on. As an undecided voter these format are really frustrating, it makes me like all of our candidates less, except for Lieberepub whom I now openly loathe.

[dutihampi]

71. This format does

suck. I'll be happy when DK, Joe, CMB, Gep, Sharpton(although he is great in these debates), and Edwards.

I really think Edwards did bad tonight. I almost had to turn the TV off after having heard that "I wrote it down" line for the thousandth time. Of course he was runner up as Joe took the cake tonight. He was pety and downright boring. I wonder what the other candidates could have said if they all took the time Joe did to say a couple of sentences...

[ModerateMiddle]

55. He really did

He has an excellent point that now is definitely NOT the time for on the job training in foreign policy. Dean says he wants to make friends in the world, but what he demonstrates repeatedly is his ability to dismiss and minimize people, and act like many people are his "enemy". Bodes badly for him as C-i-C.

[ModerateMiddle]

54. ya, he REALLY needs to pick different examples

for why he has foreign policy credentials. Comparing himself to Bush is a total loser in that regard.

[nbsmom]

107. He also said

It was the same as Clinton's, Reagan's and Carter's. (And now everyone wants Carter or Clinton to run the next Dem State Departmentt.)

Dean was also the only one to state unequivocally that he would support ANYONE on that stage who was the eventual nominee

...or to spend time in his first response talking about Bush's failures...

Maybe I've missed something, but isn't trying to lead people in a positive fashion the hallmark of someone who will figure out how to get the 'leader of the free world thing' down pretty quickly?

[maha]

48. Dang; I wanted to vote for Clueless Joe!

The first choice for last place!

[SahaleArm]

60. He needs to quit.

Holy Joe, endorsed by Jeb on Hardball.

[elperromagico]

82. Endorsed by Jeb?

Well, he's got the asshole vote locked up then.

[Tharesa]

57. Omitting holy Joe was a wise choice.

Clearly Kerry lost the debate. If he fights any harder for the Republican taxcuts and sending the $86 billion to Iraq, Democrats won't have case to make for the voters in November.

[janekat]

70. Wha??? We all just pretty much agreed Kerry won tonight

Even the Deannies, Clarkies and Dennis fans agreed.

[Tharesa]

74. Thanks very much for the input!

Tharesa will try to remember this next time we respond to a poll.

[tsipple]

80. Uh, No

Kerry got slammed a number of times (by Lieberman and the questioners), and he kept running over the bell. He also had several meandering moments, and his close was weak. There were even a few boos.

I'd say Sharpton won, as always.

Among the majors Dean and Gephardt probably won politically. Neither suffered damage. Dean won the post-debate spin on Fox, and that's obviously important. He's also got the post-debate soundbite on the top-of-the-hour news. ("WHAT tax cut?")

[Tharesa]

127. Tharesa is certain Kerry said there was taxcut for middleclass.

:tinfoilhat: We just never got it. :tinfoilhat:

[Uzybone]

72. LOL

Kerry fighting for the $87 billion to Iraq? LOL....obviously your not even slightly informed on this issue.

[Tharesa]

79. LOL

:dunce: Obviously you are. :dunce:

[knight_of_the_star]

116. Get your facts straight

I'm a Clark guy, but Kerry NEVER fought for either of the issues you mentioned. In fact, he was one of the 12 Senators who voted NO on the 87 billion.

[Tharesa]

126. Then who are the two candidates that voted for the $87 billion?

We apologize for asking, just another plain ignorant voter is Tharesa.

[JohnKleeb]

128. Its 3

Edwards and Kerry and Kucinich and I think honestly Kucinich kind of spearheaded but with the tree falling without being heard this.

[HFishbine]

130. Umm

Kerry, Edwards and Kucinisch voted AGAINST the $87B.

[Tharesa]

132. Whatever shall Tharesa do now?

Do we vote for Lieberman or Gephardt? We think this is a sad choice.

[John_H]

58. Bush, obviously.

Every time nine people kick the shit out of you for an hour on your national TV network, you lose.

[Clark Can WIN]

65. Where's the only guy who got a BIG OLE BOOOOOOO?

Holy Joe?

[Clark Can WIN]

67. OK on edit, after Joe?

I thought Dean looked bored almost, apathetic.

[Rooktoven]

69. Clark--including Holy Joe (armchair analysis)

Clark-- Seemed like a 14 year old boy scout at times. Too eager, not concise enough.

Lieberman-- I hate to say it, as shrill as Liebermans initial attack was, he acquitted himself well on the drug/prison issue, and in responding to Sharpton about Arafat (with facts).

Sharpton-- He makes great sound bites, but I don't think he'd fare as well in a non-moderator driven give and take with other candidates. (Real debate, not just oratory.)

Kerry-- Like the guy, but the jokes came off stilted, as did much of the delivery.

Braun-- Acquitted herself well.

Kucinich-- Shrill. First he complained about Edwards getting a question after Edwards was allowed time to respond to Lieberman's attack, then the attack on Dean that he wouldn't let go after making his point, then 30 vs 300... sigh...

Dean-- Not really touched. Focused on Bush, other than responding to a few attacks.

Gephardt-- Increasing decibels doesn't increase the value of the message.

Edwards-- On message, concise answers, and fine tuning the sound bite.
The "I believe in an America where" will be a song of legend down the road. (Biased plug, but I _do_ believe it...)

[FrenchieCat]

81. Dean not touched???????????

If he has as much experience as Bush when he started...and is going to surround himself with advisors....a la Bush, then he will lose!

No one wanted to hear that!

[Renew Deal]

87. That was a scary answer.

He will surround himself with who? Clark? What other big dem national security names are there. We do not have a Colin Powell type. I think Dean lost this on that. Not just that. I really think it's going to hurt him. Kerry, Clark benefitted. Mainly Kerry.

[nbsmom]

112. You keep posting that, dear...

Makes ya wonder how far the Big Dog would have gone in 92 with his 'wretched' background, hmmm?

:eyes:

BTW, I am v. curious as to what you and other staunch Clark supporters have to say about Clark's ties with the investment banking group that was buying up Tyco, even though Tyco (post Dennis Koslowski) is still an offshore co. for tax purposes...

or Clark's ties to Acxiom....

[SahaleArm]

114. Are you comparing...

Dean to the Big Dog, the slickest politician in over 30 years? Clinton had a different temperment, Dean looks like he might pop a vein. I won't bother listing the tired rhetoric against Dean.

[Bucky]

83. agree on Clark, disagree on Kerry

I'm supporting Clark, but I agree that he did poorly tonight.

But I really thought Kerry's jokes worked well. It won't save him, but I felt he (and Gephardt) did the best.

Braun is also a very solid and intelligent voice in the process. But honestly, she's only there because she isn't a player in the game. I'm sure the same people that approached her about running had first sounded out a number of still employed women senators, who all turned the run down for the sake of protecting their power base in the Congress. She's there because she's got nothing to lose and a professorship (or cabinet post) to gain. Mebby she'll end up as UN Ambassador.

Edwards continues to impress me, but every time I support a candidate, he starts sucking. I supported Graham at first and look what happened to him. Sheesh

[tsipple]

94. Edwards Had that Body Slam on Patriot Act, Though

The questioners were VERY hard on Edwards tonight, with the Patriot Act authorship being the toughest of the tough.

Edwards said something about how Ashcroft abused his authority, but the questioner came right back and said, "But you wrote the law, and you're the one who gave him the authority."

That was tough.

[seventhson]

85. Clark sounded stupid, Kerry desperate, Dean confident

Sharpton sounded best and Kucinich was next best on substance and heart. But Kucinich looked desperate. Sharpton's comments about getting people to register and vote was MY favorite moment.

None of us is doing shit if we aren't in the inner city registering voters and lobbying the disenfranchised.

Clark's comment about his only election was for homeroom captain was absolutely a stone around his neck. He's done.

Kerry was a whiney Deanophobe and looked more desperate than ever. He pissed me off when he kept dogging Dean when Dean said he would undo ALL the Bush tax cuts and balance the budget, THAT was smart and risky. Bold. Kerry was talking out of both sides of his hair.

Edwards looked great. Gephardt awful.

Dean/Edwards 2004.

Kucinich for head of Human Services or Housing. Gephardt for Labor Secretary.

[Renew Deal]

90. Dean Confidence: I will run national security like Bush.

And surround myself with good people. That doesn't sound like confidence. Is he going to be asking Clark for foreign policy advice again? Dean may lose the election on that answer. Kerry and Clark benefitted from that one.

[tsipple]

96. For the Record...

It was Kerry who said Dean compared himself to Bush (and his foreign policy experience). Dean actually compared himself to Bush, Clinton, Reagan, and Carter in level of foreign policy experience. (He was also applauded for his answer. And I'll also point out he was one of the few candidates -- Sharpton being another -- applauded in the middle of his closing statement.)

And Dean had a fairly decent rebuttal to Kerry, basically along the lines of, Well, if you're so clever, why did you support Bush for the Iraq War? If Bush fouled up, why did you do the same? You can't have it both ways.

By the way, I think that's really huge for Dean. He's very much identified as the unadulterated anti-BushIraqWar candidate, and he's the only one among the majors. (Some of the other candidates, notably Lieberman, called Clark on that issue, pointing out he's been ambiguous at times.) Wasn't it interesting how all the candidates admitted as much, that Iraq is a failure, and that the questioners did the same (calling it a "mess" even)?

All that plays right into Dean's hand. They're all coming to his sandbox on that one. Clark, Kerry, Edwards, and Gephardt all have problems on that issue. Lieberman certainly had a field day with it.

[John_Shadows_1]

91. Have you ever heard of Harry Agran?

n/t

[JasonBerry]

103. It's Larry

Actually, it's Larry Agran. He is the mayor (again) of Irvine, CA. He sought the Democratic nomination in, I think, 1992. Why? Is he up to no good?

[Evanstondem]

97. Supporters of other candidates ganging up with Dean?

That's the only way to explain the vote in this thread. Dean did fine tonight.

[kayleybeth]

109. No, I don't think people are ganging up on Dean

Dean did just fine, but with all due respect he did not shine tonight as he has in past debates. And he didn't display "frontrunner" status. He was neutral, IMHO. My opinion of him did not change one way or the other due to this debate.

[CWebster]

122. Yes it is sour grapes from Kerry-Clark supporters

just like Kerry-Gephardt ganged up on Dean in the debates seeking a unified front to bring down Dean. They spend more time and effort vilifying Dean than they do opposing Bush.

Clark truly faltered in this debate and Kerry only displayed more of his underhanded tactics.

Kerry can never win. He has way too much of the Gov. Davis flavor about him.

[Tharesa]

100. I love polls!

How can both Clark and Dean be winners and losers in tonight's debate? And how can CMB and Gephardt be neither losers or winners?

[ronzo]

104. Say what you will about Dems, but we love to vote.

What you have here is a petri dish of GD... You know.

[paulsbc]

108. Kucinich

I thought this was Kucinich's worst debate, and his major snafu about the number of deaths in Detroit made me think of that Southwest Airlines commercial where the band leader says "goodnight Detroit, we love you!", the crowd goes silent, and the other band member leans over and says "Detroit was last night"...

Kucinich could easily play that band leader based on his performance tonight, very, very poor, IMO.

[Adjoran]

117. These debates do suck.

There is no continuity at all. We have to reduce the numbers.

It needs to be cut down to five or at least, and further reduced after the Feb. 3 primaries when more are practically eliminated from contention.

Al Sharpton is going to win every debate in this format. He is great with one-liners and red-meat rhetoric. But he is not a serious contender anywhere but SC, and has no experience that would qualify him for the most powerful position in the world.

Moseley-Braun and Kucinich make some good points, but neither has shown any signs of electoral strength. They are far too short of money and organization to mount a serious campaign for the nomination.

This is serious business, and it is all well and good to be inclusive of all segments of the party. All the candidates have had a chance to participate in several debates already. Only those with a conceivable chance to win should be invited to the future encounters, so that we may make the best possible selection to run against Bush.

Ideally, we could slowly winnow the field over the primary season. But this year's schedule has been drastically compressed. As an undecided voter, I want to hear from those who have a practical chance to win.

My apologies to those whom I suggest excluding from the debates. My only concern is fielding the strongest possible candidate in '04, and time is growing short to decide on who that is.

[knight_of_the_star]

118. This isn't a fair question

I missed the debate, but without even seeing it I would already know that Joe sunk himself. Not fair not including him.

[JackRiddler]

119. There is no way this question is worth asking like this...

Might as well ask, "who must we stop now before he seizes the nomination and destroys our dreams"? Everyone's answer will be automatic, depending on which candidate they support.

[HFishbine]

120. Lieberman

Where's Leiberman? Or are you just rying to guage the second place loser?

[OKNancy]

121. BUSH

They were all great, Lieberman less so. But they all pounded Bush.
It's a great group. They didn't let the Fox-flunkies get away with b.s. questions either.

[union_maid]

123. Dean

Dean was the only one I saw in the loss column. Kerry and Edwards had a good night. I didn't see movement in any of the other candidates. I didn't see the post-debate spin, so that might make a difference in how I see it.

Dean's answer on foreign policy was about as bad as anything he could have come up with. I'm sure there are a lot of good answers and considering that he might be the nominee, I'd sure like to hear better ones next time.

Taxes - Dean's determination to rollback all the tax cuts might be fiscally sound but it's a bad plan for an election. And the others are right - it's not progressive. No one is going to see the raises in state and local taxes and user fees that they're paying now rolled back any time soon so we'll keep paying for the tax cuts that way even if they're rolled back. The marriage penalty needed to be addressed and it finally was. Wanting to reinstitute it is not going to be a popular move, especially when you consider that many a middle class family with a decent sounding income are struggling with their bills because their incomes are actually down from previous years.

[Snellius]

131. Interesting: Dean both won and lost this debate

Why are views so polarized about Dean?

[Padraig18]

134. Because he's the front-runner. n/t

[Flaming Meaux]

136. Tossup between DK, CMB, and Gep.

I don't think any of these three brought their A games last night.

Gep sounded mushy, kind of like a Lieberman lite. No 'oomph.'
I've seen better from CMB. I like her, but I don't think she has long to go in this race.
DK tries like hell, but he comes across as 'the mouse who roared' to me.
Lieberman, omitted in order to get people to talk about the other eight candidates more, is just painful to listen to.

OK, enough of the negatives.

Dean played 'rope a dope' most of the time. Nothing really new; he just let people wear themselves out beating on him so he could come back swinging.
Kerry came across as the learned expert he is. I just wish he could lay off the other candidates (Dean) and tell us why we should support HIM.
Clark was pretty sharp. If he isn't nominated, he's a shoo-in for Rummy's job.
Edwards held his own. I don't think he's ready, but let him be Vice President for eight years and he will be.
Sharpton had the least to lose, so he was probably the most relaxed of the group. His oration was nothing short of breathtaking. The fact that he was dead right helped, too. I sincerely hope that we can keep him aboard after his campaign concludes.

[Hep]

137. Worst Thread Ever

Everyone looks at their guy with favor and the other guys with scrutinty.

This thread is just another opportunity for people to bash each other and their candidates. I won't vote.