Let's Define the Middle Class

[Robb]

Poll question: Let's Define the Middle Class

By annual income. This is household, so think of the possibility of two wage-earners.

This is what you think when you think "middle class", BTW. I know someone will chime in with what the middle class actually "is" in this country. I'm curious about DUers and their perceptions.

[KharmaTrain]

1. Lots Of Variables In Play Here...

Location, specifically as $50k a year is virtually breaking even in many cities these days.

"Middle Class" is more a mindset than can be defined...while my income would be considered in the "upper middle class", our lifestyle and financial outlook is no different than when we were when our annual income was 25k a year.

Also, one has to take into consideration not the money you make, but what you keep. Tossing 50% or more of one's income into mortgages, insurance, loans, credit cards and other libabilities also distort any blanket number of what a person's "economic health/status" is based purely on an income figure.

[LeahMira]

27. Not a number...

To my way of thinking, middle class means being able to afford a modest home in a reasonably safe neighborhood, being able to afford to go grocery shopping and bring home an extra half-gallon of ice cream once in a while, and being able to afford clothes that don't all come from Wal-Mart. Most of the people I know have to stop and think if they can afford to do all of these things. Maybe they can pay for the house, but they have to watch the pennies at the grocery store. I know that a lot depends on where you happen to live, but a whole lot of families are one or two paychecks from disaster, and that's definitely not good for any of us.

[latebloomer]

2. Depends on where you live

In the NYC suburb where I'm located, you need close to $100K to afford an average house , a car or two, a yearly vacation, and the money to support all the PTA fundraising drives.

[CWebster]

3. It does matter where

That is why I believe that Kerry's $70,000 serves to alienate much of the country, as well as the lower middle-class, the working poor, the family without dual employment, the unemployed and the totally disenfranchised poor. This only serves to reinforce his elitist upper-class lack of touch and recognition of the common folk who suffer the most during bad economic times.

If helping the poorest among us means a sacrifice on my part to provide for the common good---well that was the point of taxation to begin with.

[Robb]

4. Yes, but

...If it matters where, then is any candidate even mentioning the "middle class" a non-statement? Is it just pandering because most people think they're middle class, whatever it means?

[KharmaTrain]

6. "Middle Class" Is A Good Feeling Word...

It's a synonymn for "I'm not rich"...or "I'm just like you". Politicians have used that term to pander or bash since it came out in the 50's.

My late parents, through work and investments, ended with a large annual income, but always said they were "Middle Class" or "Upper Middle Class", as a means to keep themselves grounded with their roots in the Depression and WWII. This it's more a word than an actual economic indicator.

[CWebster]

9. Maybe

but some of those who consider themselves middle-class know that Kerry isn't talking about them when he pulls a $70,000 price tag out of the air.

When Dean talks about the middle-class he includes the folks making under $70,000.

I live in an affluent area, $70,000 wouldn't make many "middle-class" families blink, but I have also see how the great many people live in other areas of the US--and it is much more typical than this area.

Kerry is sheltered by his money, contacts and Insider perspective. He cavorts with the wealthy and priviliged. Dean governed in a state with a lot of poverty and he has gone out and looked at the country while Kerry has been inside the beltway.

Kerry hasn't got a clue.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. I can assure you Massachusetts has MORE poverty than Vermont

by an fucking measure.
What a fucked-up, stereotyped, Right Wing stamped and approved caricature of Kerry you paint. The fact Dean wants to take away the tax cuts from top to bottom shows that, if anything, HE'S the one sans clue.

[CWebster]

21. Not in Kerry's neighborhood

or in ANY of Kerry's neighborhoods.

[Frodo]

5. Not nearly broad enough - and ignores too many factors.

Little $10,000 windows implies that those above are "rich" and those below "poor". The "middle class" runs all the way from the 30's (depending on where you live) well into the $100,000-plus range.

"Where you live" is a big factor, but it is also "how old are you". Late in their careers, 65 year old middle-class workers could easily be in the six-figure range and not be "rich" since those last couple years income are going to savings for retirement. A 35 year old single male in the suburbs making the same $150,000 is wealthy.

It also ignores family size. $50,000 as a single male may be plenty, but a family of five makes the same income less attractive.

[HFishbine]

7. Okay, two wage earners

and how many kids?

[JNelson6563]

8. This is a regional question.

My family lives pretty comfortably on around $50,000 or so but that's in northern Michigan. You can still buy a nice house for less than a king's ransom. When I look at national real estate listings I marvel at what a shit-hole $500,000 will get you out in California.

Julie

[booksenkatz]

11. I wanna be a Yooper, LOL!

Get me outta this pricey Ann Arbor area! I wonder how my dh would feel about the commute...?:D

[cosmicdot]

15. what $500K will get you in CA --- you've got that right

$619,000
2 Bed, 2 Bath
1,086 Sq. Ft.
(wow ... over 1000 sq feet ... is HUGE!)



what a bargain

one can a trailer ... but, the hidden cost is paying rent on the land it sits on ... which, apparently, lives beyond any mortgage ...

[booksenkatz]

10. I agree, I can't vote in this poll

When we were newlyweds, we lived just fine down in Texas on a tiny little income. Florida was equally cheap. But up here in Michigan, even though my husband makes much more $$ these days, we're barely making it, especially since my job was eliminated in 2002. One reason is because we are hoarding as much as we can into retirement/savings accounts... we're sacrificing our present comfort so that we'll have something to live on down the road when we no longer have our young, able bodies. It hurts, but I highly recommend it (especially to those of you who have seen Paul Krugman's recent excellent piece on CSPAN)! At my house, we're preparing for a depression, frankly. We're trusting the government to have no safety net for us whatsoever... it's all up to us to take care of our future selves now.

But I digress.

"Middle class" isn't a salary value that can be voted upon.

[WoodrowFan]

12. ranges are too small

Unless you mean to say what the highest level is. I'd say under $150,00 or so.

[Terwilliger]

13. too narrow...anywhere from 30,000 to 100,000 or so is middle class

with some variation, of course

[NewYorkerfromMass]

20. LOL!!!

What's really funny is that it's TRUE!

[Terwilliger]

22. ?

why is that funny?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

28. "with some variation, of course"

That's the punch line. The variation stems from size of family and location. It just appears funny on its face.

[cosmicdot]

14. is middle class currently considered making ends barely meet ...

... robbing Peter to pay Paul because all the other disciples are fresh out ... week in and out? ... praying that 'it's always something' stays far, far away??

[w4rma]

16. $30K - more than $150K, so all of the choices except the first. (n/t)

[Robb]

17. So "middle class"

...is anyone who ain't poor or rich?

How is that a helpful term?!?

[Terwilliger]

23. $150K is middle class?

in Richie Rich land?

[spinbaby]

26. Try buying a house in San Franscisco

On $150,000 a year, you probably couldn't afford it. On the other hand, in most of the mid-west, that's a whole lot of money.

[Terwilliger]

29. Granted, your "middle-class"ness varies with cost-of-living...

but $150K is still awfully high-end

[VermontDem2004]

18. I say 30,000 to 60,000

[NicoleM]

24. We're in

the $30,000-$40,000 range on one income, and we're doing fine. We're not atypical of a lot of people around here.

At one point in the early 90s, when I was still in high school, my mom, step-dad, sister and I were living on about $16,000. It wasn't easy, but we had everything we needed and my parents didn't have to go into major debt. If we had had double that, we would have been doing very well for where we lived.

It all depends on where you live, how much your housing costs are, and how much you have to pay for basic services.

[sandnsea]

25. Family household $50 - $120

Anything less than that is really low-income, although many in the lower income range are getting by. I don't think anybody likes to see themselves as low income. For a family of 4, $34,000 is the income limit for reduced school lunches, so I'd say that's low-income for sure. And I know how expenses add up with kids, so most families making less than $50,000 are going to be struggling.

[VermontDem2004]

38. Not for my family

We make about $32,000 and get by just fine.

[ModerateMiddle]

30. kind of silly to phrase it like this

My supposition is that "Middle Class" (including lower and upper MC) ranges from $30,000 to $100,000 or so in annual income.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. What a ridiculous poll.

'Middle-class' is a ten thousand dollar band of annual income and everyone above or below that is rich or poor? What do we have a midde-class made up of a few million people?

[KharmaTrain]

32. Whatever Happened To The "Misery Index"...

Remember that device the Repugnicans came out with during the Carter days to show the effects of inflation on "the middle class"? Does such an index exist now? It' be interesting to see how it looks today.

[Frodo]

36. Shhh. Don't go there.

It won't help get rid of Bush.

The "misery index" was a combination of the inflation rate plus the unemployment rate. During the 1980 campaign (and for a few quarters after that), the index was over 20.

By comparison, it would now be right around 7. It was between 6 and 7 for just about all of "good" part of Clinton's terms and probably never got better that 5.5-6.0.

At these levels, it just isn't an accurate indicator of the health of the economy. imagine if we had 3% de-flation and eight percent unemployment. The index would be "better" than it ever was under Clinton, but the economy would be in the tank!

[KharmaTrain]

37. New Equation?

Thanks for the refresher...I knew it was tied heavily to inflation, which doesn't exist today. The function was to spell out the bad economy in a way that people could "feel it" like a wind chill number.

Surely there are stats that can be combined in a similar function today. It'd be a good question to see what could be taken into account that gives this economy a real "bite".

[IrateCitizen]

33. Middle Class in NYC and Pig's Knuckle, AR are two different things...

Where I live in Westchester County, NY, my wife and I combined make over six figures. Yet, in our area, we would be considered "middle class". Hell, we can't even afford to buy the most modest of houses in our town!

For people living in rural Arkansas, OTOH, a household income of $40K per year would probably be solidly middle class. That same income in NYC would put you in the lower class, and make it difficult to find housing.

IOW, your poll doesn't take into account a number of variables.

[MrPrax]

34. MC has long been disregarded as an income based concept...

and long long disregarded as a 'middle' class between e'tates and the commons.
It is generally thought of in sociological terms as a 'status' group and is mostly identified as such by it's self-proclaimed exceptionalism and as an Ideal.

As the old adage goes...'working classes aspire to middle classes, and the middle classes aspire to be rich'

I didn't vote

[THE_TRUTH_HURTS]

35. s

s

[maggrwaggr]

39. In Southern California, or Oklahoma City???

They're WORLDS apart. It's silly to slap a dollar figure on it.

$100,000 a year in LA might make you middle class, the way a person who makes half of that in, say, Omaha is.

[proud patriot]

40. I voted for 40-50

but it could also apply to 60-70 thousand ..

My family falls far below that catagory ..
but if we made that money we could buy a home
and go on 1 vacation a year . So I consider
that middle class .

[fob]

41. According to the US Census Bureau Median Income for Family of 4

by state, with the lowest being New Mexico at $46,596 and Maryland the highest at $82,879, "Middle Class" means $47,000 to $83,000. Median income is the level at which an equal number of people have income above that amount as below that amount. The overall US mdian income is $63,278.

In that vein, I don't think an overarching $70,000 number is out of line. (I did NOT see the debate).

I present this as a overly simple answer to an oversimpified question. As many point out "middle class" has a much more complex meaning than just income, but income is surely the "membership card" to "middle class".

In reality to be "solid middle class" I think you would have to earn 10 - 20% MORE than median income to be reliably able to stay there. Being "middle class" and paycheck to paycheck is not quite compatible with the psychological aspect of "middle class" equated with comfort. Those at the median income are probably better called the working class. Families at double to triple MI would be upper class, above that would be the elite 1%ers.

Just my median opinion,

fob


Link to USCB data - Look for yourself

www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html

[Hammie]

42. Those numbers seem reasonable

Depending on where you live, it could be higher or lower.