Dean's lack of cool again on display in last night's debate...

[flpoljunkie]

Kerry: "We've never heard Governor Dean ever say how he would deal with Iraq."

Flash to an angry Dean mouthing off again under his breath. Anybody out there know how to read lips?

Dean's advisors need to tell him to can this unseemly behavior; it looks unpresidential to say the least, and will not play well with the general electorate.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. People identify with his anger

That's why he's ahead right now. Yes, really.

[eileen_d]

2. Did he say this?

"Kerry Kerry Bo Berry Bananafana Fo Ferry Me My Mo Merry - Kerry!"

[Uzybone]

23. LMAO

hahahaha!

[srpantalonas]

24. LOL!

[Hep]

3. But your unseemly behaviour

is just fine! Par for Kerry's course.

Incidentally, we never heard what Kerry's plan was. He had so many that he was bouncing back and forth on.

And don't worry, Dean won't have to face Bush in many debates. Bush knows better than that. However, a debate between Bush and Kerry would be entertaining. They'd have so much to agree about.

[eileen_d]

4. Dean Dean Bo Bean

Bananafana Fo Fean Me My Mo Mean - De-an!

[Jackpine Radical]

18. QUIT DOING THAT!!!

You're making me convulse.

[eileen_d]

20. Sorry

I misspoke.

[liberalhistorian]

5. LOL!

Yes, they certainly would. And they could even commiserate on how the war wasn't turning out quite like they thought it would when Shrub pushed for it and Kerry eagerly voted for it and supported it.

[eileen_d]

7. Kerry would destroy Bush in a debate.

Dean probably would too, if he doesn't spontaneously combust.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. Well, on the plus side, if he spontaneously combusts

there's a chance he'd take Bush out too! :)

I have to say this 'uncool' of Dean (that he posseses no cool) worries me greatly. But more worriesome is that he says he would have voted 'NO' on IWR, and that will simply not fly in the general. Period.

[Hep]

13. Yeah

I'm looking to YOU to tell me what cool is!

Can I borrow your magic 8 ball?

[TLM]

38. What uncool... you bashers are trying so so hard to push this crap

that anything Dean does is some crazy rage driven fit, like he's about to turn green and smash the whole set.


He mouthed a response to the moderator to indicate he wanted a rebutt... that's what you do. All of them do it.

Jesus christ you kerry supporters are so freaken desperate to change the subject and focus from the fact that Kerry was repeating BUsh spin on the tax cuts almost word for word to try and support Bush's tax cuts.

Kerry flat out lied when he said that Dean had not said what he'd do regarding Iraq, and Dean was right to indicate a rebutt... but then they cut to commercial and didn;t come back to Dean till after the next commercial after Kerry took another cheap shot at Dean.

[creativelcro]

35. Well....

remember before the debates in 2000? Gore was supposed to be a debate Terminator... He'd eat GW alive... Well, he SUCKED... You cannot tell when the opponent is a total moron... -C

[Julien Sorel]

17. I didn't realize the person you were replying to

was running for president? If he is, his 'unseemly behavior' (saying Dean 'lacks cool' is unseemly behavior???) would be relevant. Since he probably isn't though, it's your response that was not relevant.

[Hep]

19. so we

hold presidential candidates to a higher standard then we hold ourselves in everyday life? Maybe you, bud.

[sangh0]

26. Most people do

Most people vote for someone they think will be better than average. That's why Gore won the election

[blm]

6. Bush did it during debates and the press didn't care.

So I doubt they can hammer Dean when he does it.

[Clark Can WIN]

9. Bush did it and he was a fiesty affable regular guy

Dean does it and they are going to paint him as rude, tempermental and lacking in self control. Count on it.

Why would you think the media would give ANYONE the pass they've given the emporor?

[flpoljunkie]

25. Point well taken, blm. But...

Do we, as Dems, want someone in the White House who apes Bush's unseemly behavior?

[blm]

37. Not me. But many here like that a Dem can be as coarse

as the rightwing and typical of internet banter.

Personally I don't want a president who talks like me on a bad day at a political message board,

[Hep]

40. then

why support Kerry?

[blm]

54. Haha...have fun trying to sell Kerry as coarse.

You'll have to share your Kool-Aid.

[Hep]

61. I don't have to sell him as coarse

I only have to sell him as misinformed and well, a little dumb.

That or he's a flat out liar.

None of it is hard to prove.

[TLM]

41. You mean like repeating BUsh's spin on tax cuts...

to act like a married couple making 70k with 2 kids is the average example of a working poor or middle class situation?

Kerry's talking points might as well have come right from the RNC... pro bush's war, pro bush's tax cuts, same old bushlight crap.

[fob]

48. Actually, according to the US Census Bureau, it's about right

www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html

US Median Income for family of 4(2001) $63,278.

Full Disclosure

Above is for information only, no endorsement of any candidate is given or implied.

I lean Sharpton.

Repeal EVERYTHING bush* has done good (very short list, child care tax cut indluded), bad (HUUUUUUGGGGGGE list) and ugly (MONSTER SIZE list), rescind all executive orders and appointments and start over!

I consider the median income to be more representative of the "working class" and the "middle class" at 10 - 20% above this mark. So $70,000 = "middle class family of four" is accurate.

fob

[salin]

30. ah... but the press did comment about Gore's "sighing"

during Bush's comments. The bushfawning press will take any behavior during presidential debates from any Dem - and amplify it as some sort of symbolic evil negative. Hell, early on the press in response to Kerry... spent how much time talking about his hair? Puhleeze (directed to the media). But the rwing echo chamber picked it up and kept repeating it as a sign of his wealth and out of touchness (not pausing to worry that on the wealth and out of touchness their own boy is off the richter scale.)

[xultar]

56. That is because shrub was reading...

He can't read without moving his lips. I assume the press was impressed that he could read and decided to leave shrub alone

[quinnox]

8. I found it amusing

I can imagine what Dean was saying, "That rotten Kerry, speaking the truth about me again...grumble (unintelligible)"

I think some of Dean's worshipful supporters have started to create a false impression in Dean's mind about himself.

[Hep]

10. SO what was it?

What did he mouth?

I think it might have ben, "Kerry's prostate cancer is the least of his worries. As a doctor I'm more concerned with his apparent acute memory loss"

You know, like how Kerry forgets he voted for IWR.

[eileen_d]

12. Wait a minute - Kerry voted for the IWR?

You're shitting me.

[Punkingal]

14. What I wondered about that.....

was Dean the only one who did it?

[TLM]

43. No, they all do that... Dean was just on camera.

THat how you signal the moderator you want to rebutt... but you just mouth it so as not to by rude and cut off the other speaker... as Kerry has done several times to Dean in these debates.


Frankly I'm surprised Dean didn't march acorss that stage and bitch slap Kerry for saying Dean has not said what he'd do/would have done in Iraq.

[E_Zapata]

15. I have to admit - Kerry is wrong.

Dean has very clearly said what he wants to do in Iraq:

1. add 400,000 more soldiers

2. preferably international 'hosts'

3. the US keep the reins

4. won't seem to acknowledge that the international community won't send money and troops if the US retains control over the operation and the reconstruction of Iraq.

Hence, Dean has said what he will do in Iraq. It exactly mirrors Bush's plan sans Rummies conquest-on-a-shoestring but with full taxpayer funding.

Exactly like Bush. So, what is Dean so angry about? Not enough soldiers and Iraqis are getting picked off?

[Hep]

16. link please!

Please show me the source of this information.

[madfloridian]

22. Here is a link to Dean's Iraqi Truth Center.....show me the 400,000.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_foreign_iraq

I have not seen that figure at all.

[madfloridian]

27. He said add maybe 30 or 40,000 more.

"1. add 400,000 more soldiers"

Please follow my link and tell where he said this.

[madfloridian]

33. Here is another link. Waiting for where you found that figure?

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_reconstruction

Comparison chart.

QUOTE:" I believe that we need a very substantial increase in troops. They don’t all have to be American troops. My guess would be that we would need at least 30,000 and 40,000 additional troops. "

[TLM]

44. That's great link to show what fraud Kerry and Lieberman are...

Kerry attacks Dean for not having said what he'll do in Iraq... when Dean said what he'd do in his 7 point plan back in April, months before Kerry would come out with basicaly the same plans.

[madfloridian]

58. E Zapata, you quoted Dean way incorrectly.

He did not say 400,000. I think you misinpreted the rest of it as well.

I think you should correct your figures.

Again, here is the link:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_reconstruction

Believe you misquoted this part as well:
SNIP..."Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council. ...."

[leetrisck]

21. Any of our candidates would destroy Slimy Shrub

in a debate and hey, I don't mind if Dean or any of them get a little perturbed. As far as winning a debate, the person the media says wins the debate no matter what.

[killbotfactory]

28. Kerry would do the same thing as Bush, only better!

Go Kerry!

[Hep]

29. No no

"less horrible"

[TLM]

45. Call it what it is....

[maggrwaggr]

31. you only saw it because they cut to it with a split-screen

and they didn't do that with anybody else, just with Dean.

[CWebster]

32. Losing cool in action:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=598010&mesg_id=598010

Follow Feanorcurufinwe

[TLM]

34. LOL!!! Wow Kerry folks are sweating....

"We've never heard Governor Dean ever say how he would deal with Iraq."


Guess Kerry has a hard time hearing anything but the Bush spin on the tax cuts he worked so hard to lay out last night...

What Dean mouthed look like "that's just not true." But I'm not sure.


But you know how desperate Kerry crew are to push the "Dean is hot headed" meme, when they are trying to spin Dean signaling the moderator that he wants a rebuttal as some crazed rage.

[Hep]

36. Kerry needs rehab like Rush is getting

Maybe after his surgery he developed a "liking" for painkillers? Either he has a serious memory defect or his hearing is bad. Either way, he got is wrong last night.

[TLM]

46. Don't see how Kerry can't recall Dean's stance on Iraq policy

Dean's 7 point plan was put out back in april... Kerry still hasn;t taken positions on most of the issues with Iraq.

Not only was Kerry lying about Dean... he was doing a major case of projection.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_reconstruction

There is a great table that lays it out here.

Dean
4/09/2003

A NATO-led coalition should maintain order and guarantee disarmament.

Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council.

The U.N.'s Oil for Food program should be transformed into an Oil for Recovery program, to pay part of the costs of reconstruction and transition.

The U.S. should convene an international donor's conference to help finance the financial burden of paying for Iraq's recovery.

Women should participate in every aspect of the decision-making process.

A means should be established to prosecute crimes committed against the Iraqi people by individuals associated with Saddam Hussein's regime.

[killbotfactory]

47. Kerry doesn't like to read, apparently

His view on the IWR vote sure as hell doesn't reflect reality.

[sangh0]

49. None of the candidates have a exit plan for Iraq

Suew, they all mouth pretty sounding phrases like "internationalize the occupation" or "put NATO in charge", etc. However, those aren't "plans", they're "goals". None of the candidates explain HOW we're going to get other nations to send their soldiers over to get shot at.

And there's a simple explanation for that - Campaigns are designed to be as non-specific as possible in order to avoid repelling those voters who care deeply about a particular issue.

[flpoljunkie]

51. Kerry 's Plan on How to Deal with Iraq

http://www.johnkerry.com/iraq_vote.html#statement2

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN?

I know there’s a better plan for how we deal with Iraq, and here it is, very simply:

Number 1: You've got to go the UN completely, not in this phony way that the President’s getting them to sign off just because of the games they play, but in a real transfers of authority to the UN for the civil development, for the governance, and for the humanitarian programs. Then it’s possible to have a broader, multination force come onto the ground, relieve the pressure from the American force, reduce the sense of American occupation and take the target off of American soldiers. Once you do both of those things, you can train the Iraqi military and police faster, and you can set a date for the transfer of full authority for Iraq back to the Iraqis. If all of that were done simultaneously, you’d have a much faster transition of authority in Iraq and you’d make the ground much safer for American forces, and you begin to reduce the number of American forces who are overcommitted and overextended, and you could bring them back to the United States much more rapidly.

more questions and answers from John Kerry on Iraq at the above link

[ibegurpard]

39. Says a self-proclaimed Kerry fan.

Sorry if I take what you have to say with a grain of salt.

[goforit]

42. Anger???..wait until the masses rises!!!.....Kerry's wishy-washy stance

like Liebermans makes the DEMS look weak and all washed up!!!


People are ticked and need someone tough like Dean to deal
with the Bush Cabal's maffia style of doing business.

Weak Pretty boys finish last.....and rightfully so!!!

Anger???.........You haven't seen nothing yet!!!

[RetroLounge]

50. DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

Poor Kerry, having "Marsha Marsha Marsha" moments...

[ThirdWheelLegend]

52. Missed the debate(at work), Dean did not admit the ad was wrong...

ON EDIT:

Just found the transcript and read the part where Kucinich brought up the New Hampshire Dean ad.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21551-2003Oct26_2.html

Kucinich speaking first here:


"...Furthermore, you know, a number of us have opposed the war, but I'd have to say to Dr. Dean, you said in paid TV ads that only you opposed the war in Iraq, but that's not true.

Why forfeit the public trust? Why can't you just admit you made a mistake and take down the ad? I mean, you have Ambassador Braun, Mr. Sharpton, myself, we opposed the war. Why don't you take down those ads? They're not true.

IFILL: Governor Dean?

DEAN: Here's what the ad says, among other things: "130,000 troops in Iraq with no end in sight and a price tag that goes up daily. The best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before they supported the war."

Now, that include -- that's those opponents who supported the war. Clearly, Ambassador Moseley Braun, Dennis Kucinich, Bob Graham, Al Sharpton and myself opposed the war right from the beginning.

Despite Wes's statements to the contrary, he did support the resolution. He told Katrina Swett in New Hampshire that she should support the resolution. These other folks voted for the war, too.

So don't think my ad is inaccurate at all. I'm talking about the people who supported the war, with whom I disagree.

IFILL: OK, that is the end...

KUCINICH: That ad is a misrepresentation.

IFILL: OK, Congressman.

KUCINICH: And anyone who reads it would understand that's a fair characterization.

IFILL: You have made your point.

That's the end of round one. Now we're going to go to our second round of questions, also on the war on terror and foreign policy.
...."

-----------------------------

Well he didn't admit is was a misrepresentation. Sorry but to the undecided voter when you have a group of candidates(no matter who polls where) and refer to them as "my opponents", that is all inclusive. He may have "meant" to say Kerry, Lieberman, etc., but he did not SAY that.

TWL

[flpoljunkie]

59. Here's the exchange from page two of the transcript...

I agree with Kucinich. Dean is disingenuous to say the least.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21551-2003Oct26_2.html

Kucinich:

Furthermore, you know, a number of us have opposed the war, but I'd have to say to Dr. Dean, you said in paid TV ads that only you opposed the war in Iraq, but that's not true. 

Why forfeit the public trust? Why can't you just admit you made a mistake and take down the ad? I mean, you have Ambassador Braun, Mr. Sharpton, myself, we opposed the war. Why don't you take down those ads? They're not true.

IFILL: Governor Dean?

DEAN: Here's what the ad says, among other things: "130,000 troops in Iraq with no end in sight and a price tag that goes up daily. The best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before they supported the war." 

Now, that include -- that's those opponents who supported the war. Clearly, Ambassador Moseley Braun, Dennis Kucinich, Bob Graham, Al Sharpton and myself opposed the war right from the beginning. 

Despite Wes's statements to the contrary, he did support the resolution. He told Katrina Swett in New Hampshire that she should support the resolution. These other folks voted for the war, too. 

So don't think my ad is inaccurate at all. I'm talking about the people who supported the war, with whom I disagree.

IFILL: OK, that is the end...

KUCINICH: That ad is a misrepresentation. 

IFILL: OK, Congressman.

KUCINICH: And anyone who reads it would understand that's a fair characterization.

IFILL: You have made your point. 

[ThirdWheelLegend]

62. sorry fpol, I edited my post while you must have been posting.

I got the transcript and updated my post, so now our posts are identical LOL. :)

TWL

[Larkspur]

53. We'd all be pissed when someone makes a blantant lie and we can't respond

to it right away.

Dean does have a plan. He had a 7-point plan for Iraq published in earlier this year -- http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_7pointplan.

[Lady President]

55. MSNBC just commented on the muttering

Just a few minutes ago MSNBC was reporting on Dean shifting and muttering during other candidates' answers. Clearly, you can say that MSNBC is just giving a conservative lean, but people watch and believe this stuff. The worst part was they showed it without sound which made him look unbalanced.

Other candidates have tweaked problems in their debate style. For example, Kerry has added more one-liners to compensate for his perceived stiffness. I just can't understand why most Dean supporters can't except that some constructive criticism by advisors would help him.

[GalleryGod]

60. I Guess he dissed the Pointers Begala Gave him on "K Street"

:party: Say it while SMI-LING!

Oh,what the hell,what has Begala ever won:hangover:

[Padraig18]

57. I see great potential in Dean's anger.

I hear the constant lament about "the Democrats need to fight back, blah, blah, blah...", so why would a candidate who might actually FIGHT BACK verbally be a bad thing? Why wouldn't a candidate who is willing to say "That's the most ridiuculous thing I've ever heard!" resonate with the American public?

Those Repuke bastards fight in the gutter, and I'm frankly willing to stand by someone who's willing to get down in the mud, the blood and the beer *with them* and strangle the life out of the crypto-fascist bastards!

[Woodstock]

63. Some of us prefer to call it passion