Leaving poor neighborhoods to burn in California?

[angka]

Something's not right about this.

Although I've lived here in suburban Denver for the past twelve years, I was born and raised in San Bernardino. Most of my family moved out here to Colorado in 1990-91, fleeing the crime and poverty that had invaded the once-beautiful Valley from the west. Unemployment and crime remain huge barriers to economic development in this area.

My family originally moved to San Bernardino from Massachussetts at the turn of the prior century. My grandfather worked in the orange packing industry, and served on Highland's informal town council. My sister (who I cannot presently reach) lives in northwest San Bernardino, near Cal State (burned area). I have many friends and family all over San Bernardino, most of whom are safe. One described to me how the fire raced down the mountain, burned his back fence, the leaped over his house to burn shrubs in the front yard. Somehow his house was spared.

That said, it's worth pointing out that San Bernardino is no stranger to devastating wildfires. The Panorama Fire of 1980 (which I remember vividly) leveled hundreds of homes in the densely populated area where the foothills meet the valley floor. People who choose to live in these areas know the danger and are generally prepared for it.

Take a look at this, the burn map for the Old Waterman Canyon fire as of yesterday:



in the center of the map you can see a large tongue of burned area streching south into the San Bernardino Valley, apparently crossing the 30 freeway. This is the Del Rosa neighborhood of northeast San Bernardino. Del Rosa is just one mixed-density lower middle income neighborhood out of many in the Valley.

On the east side of the map, you can see where firefighters apparently made a heroic stand at Highway 330. Preventing the fire from reaching into the valley here has the effect of saving several much newer and more upscale housing developments in East Highlands. These areas, all built up since the Panorama Fire in 1980, were stoutly defended to the cheers of grateful residents.



But what happened in Del Rosa? From today's Riverside Press-Enterprise:

After Saturday's firestorm, when Del Rosa neighborhoods burned without a fire truck in sight, East Highlands residents were grateful to see crews defending their homes.

And from today's San Bernardino Sun:

Jerry Taylor, a 55-year-old retired California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection firefighter, sprayed his house with a garden hose to ward off the flames. He also grabbed some firefighters to help save houses on his block.

"If I hadn't stayed, our house would have burned up," he said, still wearing his ash stained, fire-resistant CDF jumpsuit.

Taylor said firefighters were stationed throughout the north San Bernardino neighborhood but did little to save the homes burning around them.

"They weren't really too willing to help," he said.

Today's press accounts speak of the determined efforts to save twenty-five endangered luxury homes above San Bernardino in Crestline. Sixty "million dollar" homes have burned in Claremont, and more luxury housing is being stoutly defended down in San Diego; they've apparently lost some of them. The press is all over that. The national media are all reporting from Claremont or San Diego. But over four hundred more modest homes have burned in the city of San Bernardino, with the majority in the congested, minority-heavy Del Rosa neighborhood. The fire clearly got off the hillside and into residential areas on the valley floor.

Was it decided to let Del Rosa burn in order to save more upscale regions of the city? I guarantee you that some people there are asking this question—or they will be, once they get the rubble cleared.

On a probably unrelated (but amusingly provocative) note, San Bernardino County went 70% for the recall of Governor Davis, who has now been in town twice during this fire organizing relief efforts.

[Lindacooks]

1. I believe you're right

and it's up to Democrats to point this out. Because the "media" certainly won't do it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Good point and what about that car tax they all voted against that pays

for police and firefighters?

[Marlie]

3. Last Night on CNN

A lady who just lost her home stated "I'm angry - notice how they
save the million dollar homes and let ours burn to the ground".
The quote may not be exact but close. Even in these horrid fires
in California, the rich get far better treatment than the middle class
or poor. Such is our society!

[JewelDigger]

4. Hmmmm.....

Do you think when Del Rosa gets rebuilt it go something like this? The current owners will get their insurance money, then a developer will offer them a 'reasonable' price for their land, then said developer will build 'million dollar homes'.

The developer will make a very handsome profit, the insurance company gets to insure higher end homes. No wonder it was left to burn. The only ones who will lose are the current homeowners. And they didn't really 'lose', they just have to go off and move somewhere else.

Or am I just being too cynical?

[Sequoia]

6. No, You are probably 100% correct

burn out the poor and middle class. This whole thing is part of the plan. Think Bush will help S. Cal now?

[JewelDigger]

8. I don't know if this incident is really 'part of the plan'

but it might be considered 'an opportunity' by certain people, and hence, the lack of assistance for lower-end homes.

[7th_Sephiroth]

45. this is sending the obvious message

that the rich are more important, and that thier lives and property are more valueable than the property of the majority, i say to people who have lost thier homes while the million dollar homes were burned down, move into thier homes show them the concenquences of thier greed

[MsLeopard]

5. It's true

I live in SD Co., on the coast, and I noticed yesterday too that heroic efforts have been made to save the homes of the wealthy, while the homes of have-nots are just left to burn with no fire fighters in sight. Our two-tiered system of social protection shows itself once again. And I'm just waiting for the cries of "Tax the poor! They use all the services anyway!"

[denverbill]

7. The sad thing? Who is more likely to be insured?

Every one of those rich folks very likely had insurance. Chances are at least some of the poorer folks didn't.

[JewelDigger]

9. If you've got a mortgage you're REQUIRED

by the mortgage holder to have insurance. The banks/lenders aren't gonna lose their money. If someone owns their home free-and-clear, you probably aren't REQUIRED by anybody to have insurance, but it would be EXTREMELY STUPID not to and I doubt that anyone does this (own their home and not have insurance).

[veganwitch]

12. what about renters

most renters dont have renters insurance (me being one of them).

im not sure what the apartment/temp housing is in that area but if there are lots of apartments theres a good chance that there is no insurance.

[jiacinto]

13. You should get it

It's not that expensive.

[JewelDigger]

15. The structure will be insured by the landlord

that's the most 'valuable' element - besides the land itself, of course. The contents/personal property inside a house/apartment, while valuable to the owner, isn't really worth all that much typically if you were to go sell it. Some exceptions would be expensive pieces of art, jewelry, etc. But the the owner of such items typically has that insured separately. It's not part of a standard policy.

[veganwitch]

17. thats what im saying

the landlord/owner will get their money

the tenants will be screwed.

ps. i will be getting renters insurance when i move to my new place.

[jiacinto]

24. You need it

Losing your belongings in a fire or some other diasster is a horrilbe thing to go through.

[slackmaster]

34. Renter's insurance is DIRT CHEAP!

If you own anything at all it's worth buying renter's insurance. You'll be surprised how little it costs to cover replacement cost of your personal property plus liability, which REALLY comes in handy when your kids' friends fall down and injure themselves. (That happened to me when I was a renter.)

[jiacinto]

35. Yeah it is

nt

[jiacinto]

10. The Ecology of Fear by Mike Davis addresses this issue

Most likely Del Rosa will be replaced by upscale homes. However, it goes into that issue and more.

[hatrack]

47. Particularly "The Case For Letting Malibu Burn"

It's a brilliant chapter.

It points that that there's no lengths to which authorities didn't go ten years ago to protect Malibu from brushfires, despite residents' opposition to (1) widening roads so fire trucks could get through; (2) paying for improved fire water lines; and (3) controlled burning, because it might look "ugly" and deposit nasty ash in their swimming pools. That's to say nothing about the wisdom of plunking down multi-million dollar homes on winding mountain roads in a densely thicketed chapparal area that has burned in the autumn since time began.

But in central LA, the poor have regularly burned to death - for decades - in the slumlords' residential hotels and crackerbox apartments. Apparently, nothing can be done about that. Even regular fire code inspections run years behind, let alone mandated improvements in fire safety.

[angka]

48. kick

thank you.

[CWebster]

11. Not enough money for the poor

Funds hacked away for basic services are left unfunded and slashed to the bone to provide a tax cut and $$$$$ for basic services for Iraqis (that we destroyed.....for no reason whatsoever).

[maggrwaggr]

14. Geez, folks, not EVERYTHING is a conspiracy

I live here, too, and the way these fires are being driven by these insane winds, bursting up out of control here and there, with one of the fires 20 miles LONG ....

I think firemen are pretty good about doing what they can, where they can.

I think it's pretty insulting to firemen, who are brave motherfuckers putting their lives on the LINE to save what they can, to suggest that they are playing favorites for the "wealthy".

These fires are hugely out of control. There aren't enough firemen in the entire state to fight this stuff, as long as these winds are blowing like this.

You are a paranoid person. And the people who agree with you are paranoid.

I'm thoroughly disgusted with this thread.

[angka]

18. wow.

i'm not implying anything beyond the pale. what, you don't think making decisions on where to apply limited resources in a crisis are ever made based on socioeconomic prejudices? do you even know anything about the social composition of san bernardino city as opposed to county?

i am not paranoid, and i think it's possible that you are a little naive...

[TLM]

41. Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about

I live right in the middle of this crap and these fires are out of control.

The firefighter are picking where they fight based on where they CAN fight the fires. Where they hold the flames has more to do with freeway locations, access, and breaks where they can stop the fires from moving.

They are holding fires to keep evacuation routes open and to try and get out of certian areas before the winds shift in the evenings.

Trust me the firefighters couldn't give a shit how much the home is worth... some of these guys even lost their own homes in this fire.

The sad fact is that the more expensive homes are often on larger pieces of open land where the fire can be controled somewhat... whereas the less expensive houses are densely packed together and the fire just hops from building to building once it reaches up from the canyons... there is almost nothing they can do to stop it.

[LunaC]

29. Living through it now and I agree

We had 60 mph winds and if we had triple the firefighting force, it wouldn't have made a difference! There was just no way to control the blaze that whipped through all that dried scrub after years of drought.

The firefighters are committed to putting out fires. Period. They don't pick and choose who will be saved, who won't. They are professionals who respond to the conditions presented to them by Mother Nature. Our guys did one helluva' job with what was nothing short of a conflagration. We're lucky there wasn't more death and destruction.

[rustydad]

37. Ex Firefighter

I worked for the Santa Barbara City Fire Dept. in the sixty's. We had an 80,000 acre fire that threatened to move into the city at times. I think that in general firefighters do not desciminate in chosing where to stand and fight. The problem is that the rich mansions are usually easier to protect, have tile roofs, clean, green landscapes and pools of water. On the other hand lower class neighborhoods are conjested, crowded, and just much harder to protect. So IMHO it is way too early to point fingers. Fighting an urban conflagration is a firefighters worst nightmare by orders of magnitude. Bob

[maggrwaggr]

16. I'm kicking this just so others can flame your a**

nt

[angka]

20. bring 'em.

After Saturday's firestorm, when Del Rosa neighborhoods burned without a fire truck in sight, East Highlands residents were grateful to see crews defending their homes.

Taylor said firefighters were stationed throughout the north San Bernardino neighborhood but did little to save the homes burning around them.

i'm glad you respect our firefighters, so do i, my brother in law is one, but they don't make the strategic decisions in a crisis. and all i'm doing is asking questions, which should be fine with you.

think for a minute before you go popping off back to me...

[Clete]

19. I grew up in San Bernardino.

in the forties and fifties. We often watched the fires in the mountains during fire season, but never, ever did one reach the valley.

[angka]

23. this one was particularly bad.

not to mention that the arsonist started the fire relatively close to town.

i am not implying that the destruction in del rosa was deliberate in terms of forcing poor people out. i view it as more of a systemic neglect for poor areas...

[sandnsea]

21. Firefighters chime in please!

A couple of things come to mind, but I really don't know. That one tongue does look a little weird, but it's possible one would have to see the topography up close to understand what happened there. Or know the time of day the fire hit that neighborhood and whether there were any windshifts or weather changes at the time. It also depends on what the homes were made of, maybe the wealthier homes had the kinds of fire-retardent roofs and landscaping that made them easier to protect. Maybe they could afford to have structure protection materials on their own. There will be reports and reasons for protecting some neighborhoods and not others. Firefighters generally choose based on the likelihood of whether there's a realistic chance of saving the home. I also don't know whether city firemen have the same experience in structure protection as wildland firefighters. So what different firefighters did, might depend on the firefighter's knowledge. And while you may think a firefighter should be willing to die in order to save a house, I don't.

[MadHound]

22. Used to be a firefighter, but I'm not familiar with the ground

So I can only speak in generalities here. Where firefighters put forth their effort in a fire like this is dependent on a few things: What the local topography is, what the local house/flammables density is, what the wind/weather is doing, access, water availability, and the strategic decision of where they put the most hurt on the fire. High density housing, especially if the topography is suitable(lots of winding narrow streets, stacked houses up and down a hillside, etc) is a fire trap waiting to happen, and quite frankly I wouldn't send men into the middle of it. You would have to take your stand at the more defensible edges. If you send men into such an area, fire can rain down the hillsides and engulf them quick. Also is water service available to the area? With electricity spotty, a huge water demand, etc, water pressure could be too low for practical firefighting. Yes, you could send in a tanker or two, but you would be really suprised at how little a few thousand gallons will dent in a fire of this magnitude. It could quite well be the case that due to these factors the fire chiefs decided to fight on the perimeters of this "tongue", where conditions were more managable, and where success was more likely. Remember, firefighters have to think of the "big picture" on a fire of this size, so there will be some areas sacrificed for the better good.

That said however, there is a tendancy for some fire depts. to fight harder for wealthier sections of town. These fire depts. tend to be extremely politicized and could very well have their hand in the kitty somewhere. If this is the profile of your fire dept. out there, then it wouldn't suprise me in the least that there are certain sections of town that are left to burn. If you suspect this to be the case, well keep an eye out on your local fire captain. You might notice that he will soon be driving around in a new car, or purchasing a house he couldn't normally afford.

But all in all, the vast majority of fire depts. are honorable and forthright, putting their lives on the line for rich and poor alike. I think that it is simply a case where somebody took into account all of the factors mentioned above and made the decision for the better good to have the fire line here rather than there.

I wish all of you the best out there, you're going through ten kinds of hell out there. If you have to go outside for any length of time, wear a respirator mask. If you don't have one, breathe through a damp cloth. God knows what's being burned out there, but you can bet that none of it is good.

[angka]

25. bump

wasn't somebody going to 'flame my a**'?

[realFedUp]

26. Equal opportunity fire

It seems that the fire is going after wood and brush
and isn't discriminating what's in it's path.

The newer homes with tile roofs seem to be weathering
better than older homes with wood roofs.

[slackmaster]

32. Yes, and newer homes tend to have less brush around them

A lot of the older homes that burned up in Crest and Harbision Canyon not only had wood shake roofs, but had brush and trees growing right up to them.

People forget that fire suppression starts at home. If you don't keep your own yard in a defensible condition the chances that your home can be saved are reduced.

[Asak]

27. Re: San Diego

I won't make any comments regarding San Bernardino county, but just to address the "luxury homes" being defended in San Diego county. It just so happens that several of the areas affected by the fire happened to be more upscale/wealthy areas. That's why you might see some more expensive houses being defended and/or lost as opposed to more modest ones. Although, in general, with houses costing what they do in Southern California, a "modest" house is something of a misnomer.

Also, for all you guys spouting conspiracy theories, from hundreds of miles away, please give it a rest. These fires are COMPLETELY out of control. They've been saying that in the media, but you can't truly have an understanding of just how much area is being burned unless you live here. Even if you're not actually in harm's way (at this time, anyway), freeways you know-- many of which are no where near one another-- are being closed. The fire has spread from the northern section of the county all the way down into Mexico.

Homes ARE burning, but not because the fire fighters are just letting them. There just aren't enough fire fighters. None of the fires are even close to being contained and they're still spreading like wild fire (pun intended :P). There is no conspiracy. We don't have enough fire fighters or equipment to handle the fire, and even if we had 10 times as much it still might be out of control.

Finally, as to San Bernardino county, my guess is the fire fighters made a stand in a location where they thought they could beat the blaze (ie: narrow canyon or something). Or that if it gets past it would be even harder to stop. At this point I doubt the fire fighters are very concerned with protecting a few wealthy homes, they're a lot more worried about having the whole city of Los Angeles burn to the ground (it may be a little bit of an exagerration, but if the fires up there are anywhere near as bad as down here in SD, then it's not MUCH of one).

[knight_of_the_star]

28. Exactly

You should have heard what the mayor of San Diego and the Fire Chief were saying about their hopes for progress today. They are hoping to CONTAIN, not put out, but CONTAIN the fire just outsdie or at San Marcos. Anyone who isn't a local, pull up a map of the fire that includes the location of cities in SoCal and you'll get a general idea how out of control this blaze is. I heard we only have 800 firefighters on the line fighting this, and the real kicker is that MOST of the heavy duty equipment is up in San Bernadino fighting the fire THERE because that fire started first and we shipped all we could (and more than we should have) to help them out. The reason the fire is so out of control right now is simply because we lack the resources to hold it down and there is a massive Santa Anna pushing it west. I heard on the news that the winds have since shifted to blow to the northeast instead of to the coast, but I doubt that will stay. To say that something that is a regular occurence out here is the cause of a giant political conspiracy or is being used to further one is ludicrous. Normally the flames don't get this huge, but this year one of the fires was started VERY close by an arsonist and we haven't had enough rainfall in over 2 months, so you imagine how DRY the brush is out here. Couple that with our manpower and equipment being spread too thin and you get the current circumstances.

[LunaC]

30. Excellent point!

"Upscale" San Diego doesn't have the manpower to adequately fight the fire because the available resources are already in
San Bernardino! We begged for additional equipment and firefighters and were told NO CAN DO! As fires elsewhere come under control, then - and only then - will the resources be diverted our way.

Our exhausted firefighters (they've been on the line since Saturday) fought just as valiantly for the homes in Scripps Ranch as they did in the tiny town of Crest. They responded to the conditions presented to them by Mother Naature and certainly not on any socioeconomic basis. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise!

[angka]

31. uh-huh.

well i'm glad you're all convinced that people just put away their prejudices during a crisis. i don't agree...

and while we're all pontificating about what a great job our firefighters are doing, can you kindly explain to me why saving 25 luxury homes in crestline was worth 125 engines, but 400 poorer homes in del rosa were allowed to burn with—and this is confirmed by many I have personally spoken to now—no meaningful defense from firefighters?

and when was the last time you actually visited san bernardino? do the words 'suburban blight' mean anything to you? probably not in san diego county, except for national city and maybe something you read about in the U-T.

shame on you for casually dismissing credible questions that have to do with prejudice.

[LunaC]

36. When the frothing stops

You'll realize that you made my point....San Bernardino had the manpower and resources while San Diego went without. The "suburban blight" you're concerned about received the attention and the "rich" were ignored. Fire is nondiscriminatory and resources are allocated on a first-come, first-serve basis. There's nothing sinister about it.

[slackmaster]

33. Tell it to the 300+ families who lost homes in Scripps Ranch

A lot of million-dollar homes have been burned to the ground as anonymous people on the 'Net try to second-guess decisions made by firefighters who are doing the best they can. This class-based conspiracy notion always comes up after a big wildfire.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/audiovideo/031027fire_lo.ram

It's natural for anyone who lost their home to a fire to question how the resources were allocated. I think we'd all be best served by reserving judgement on those decisions until after the initial emotional shock subsides.

The best fire insurance is to keep your property clear of flammable brush. A lot of the homes that were lost in San Diego County had old dense brush right up to their doorsteps. You cannot count on government services to be able to completely handle a fire of this magnitude.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/multimedia.html

[angka]

38. maybe you're right. it really doesn't matter.

although i know enough about the corrupt state of government in berdoo to remain justifiably suspicious.

and for the record (again), i'm not implying any conspiracy other than one to make sure the nice parts of town didn't burn—and only after they were forced to pick which ones would and which ones wouldn't. no allegation beyond that, do you understand?

others have made these points about how poor areas that burn are often rebuilt with housing the original residents cannot possibly afford. that to me is very interesting, but i am not (saying it slowly) claiming del rosa was allowed to burn explicity for this purpose. that's a pretty goddamn horrible thing, though, if it were at all true—an economic war crime?

and i'm really sorry about the richies in scripps ranch, who i am sure have excellent insurance. i hope the rebuilding of their mcmansions is uneventful. i'm sure mrs. richman will be planning out her new verandah very soon.

meanwhile, there are hundreds of uninsured renter families in del rosa who have lost more than they'll ever be able to replace at $8 an hour. now given the choice, who do you think i'm going to shed a tear for?

[neuvocat]

39. Wrong.

The neighborhoods that were the most affected here in San Diego were more affluent places. Those poor, city areas like what you mention don't have very much vegetation to burn, so fires woulnd't last nearly as long.

[smallprint]

40. SD County burn map shows country club getting special protection

Check it out:

http://www.signonsandiego.com
go to Map: Fiery Paths

It shows Skyline Ranch Country Club being defended while everything else burns

now, in all fairness, it could be that the country club was just a strategic point of defense... but it sure looks funny...

[TLM]

42. Special protection?

Country clubs are big open well kept grassy green areas, easy to defend when you're surrounded by fire because it is harder for the fire to spread over green grass than scrub.

[smallprint]

43. Good point

but why are they big, well kept, grassy green well-watered areas? Because they have the money to keep them that way. And they are designed like European estates-- easy to "defend".

I'm sure the neighborhood is glad to see that even though all their houses have burned down, they have somewhere to play golf.

[Polemonium]

44. Wrong wrong wrong

Please notice the point of origin on this map. The reason Del Rosa was hit so hard was because it was closest to the point of origin and followed the path of fierce Santa Anna winds. The question you should be asking yourself is how in the face of huge fires with strong winds pushing them wasn't more of San Bernadino lost. The only reason other areas have been saved was due to more time to respond, and diminishing winds in the case of Crestline. Furthermore, as a former resident you should know that over half of the people living in the mountain communities are middle class folks who commute to the valley. People like my parents and many friends I am fearful for. The fire fight up there so far has been super human with fire fighter pulling 48+ hour shifts, and firefighters have done a hell of a job fighting fires on every front possible. There has yet to be a concession decision to let one residential area burn while saving another. Some of my friends are fire fighters and I assure you that if they do concede an area it will be based on safety of fire crews, or making the best use of fire fighting resources to stop the fire (not based on some socio-economic crap dished out from arm chair firemen). It has been incredible how focused the fire fighters have been on saving homes. For example, the town of Devore (not a town of wealthy folks by any stretch) should have been completely wiped out. But the repeated airdrops and the fact that a fire truck was eventually parked in front of every home ensured that most of the homes there were saved (why there were even trucks parked outside dumpy looking homes).

Sorry for the rant. I love that people on DU extend their critical eye to damn near everything, but in this case you've hit a nerve. People are suffering, some of them my friends (most of whom did not vote to get rid of Davis). Further, the fire fighters effort has been super human, to slight that effort in anyway flies in the face of what is really going on.

[angka]

46. 'armchair firemen' and 'socioeconomic crap'

of course as the situation changes on the ground, all arguments surrounding the issue also shift. as so many homes burn elsewhere in the region, it becomes more difficult to keep focused. particularly when most of the homes burning now are in far more affluent areas than the del rosa neighborhood of san bernardino. certainly i feel for all of them—yes, even the richies in scripps ranch.

what i am making here is a specific hypothesis, regarding a specific community, which is backed up by the apparent facts on the ground, and takes into account the overarching, tragic inability for heroic firefighters to save every neighborhood in a massive conflagration. my post #38 (above) says some, as do others. i hope people starting reading threads as they evolve before popping off. here, the key statement:

i'm not implying any conspiracy other than one to make sure the nice parts of town didn't burn—and only after they were forced to pick which ones would and which ones wouldn't.

what interests me in this discussion is how many of you have defensively pointed how that upscale areas are geographically easier to defend than poor ones. okay. even if that is anecdotally true, wouldn't that give these poor areas priority, in terms of defense? wouldn't you want to protect those large, comparatively fragile populations? and if not, why not? seems to me that you've got a socioeconomic question there, don't ya? this seems plainly obvious to me, and i think you must be missing the forest for the burning, pine-beetle infested trees.

'armchair firemen.' that itches just a little bit. but such thinking is better understood within the context of other applications, for example:

questioning the beating of rodney king by the lapd would make us 'armchair policemen.'

wondering why nypd officers pumped 41 bullets into amadou diallo would make us 'armchair policemen.'

asking why the cops and firefighters hid behind their ambulances for almost three hours at columbine would make us armchair 'both,' i guess.

sorry, but as a free citizen, i can ask any question i want, and i have a right to better answers than dismissive restatements—things i already know about individual firefighters being heroes.