Kuchinich's Detroit Gaffe

[NWHarkness]

I don't have any intention of bashing Dennis Kuchinich, but I wonder if his supporters are aware of how damaging his garbling of Detroit crime statistics hurt him in Michigan.

For those who didn't see the debate, he made the wildly erroneous claim that 300 people were murdered in Detroit in September, which to his credit, he retracted when pressed on it later.

But the fact that he said it, and that he twice emphasized how many people had been murdered in the city since 1972 angered and alienated many Detroiters. It's been all over the local media today, and I've heard it from quite a few people. Kwame Kilpatrick blasted him hard about it. Without meaning any offense, Kuchinich has offended the largest bloc of Democratic voters in the state.

People here are very sensitive about the media's constant portrayal of Detroit as the "Murder City" when in fact, cities such as Atlanta, Houston, Miami, and Washington have had higher homicide rates for many years. Many African Americans consider that characterization racist, and many more people, of all races, consider it a sign of cluelessness about urban America.

And in a larger sense, there is a feeling among many people here that Detroit went out of it's way to be receptive to the candidates, and that Kuchinich's comments were rude and ungracious, a matter of a guest insulting a host who had welcomed him.

I don't for a second think that Kuchinich is in any way a racist or hostile to urban America. But he fumbled badly in the debate, and his chances of doing well in the Michigan caucuses went from small to non-existent.

[ErasureAcer]

1. I figured he just mis-spoke

300 on the year(very high)...or maybe 30 for the month(also very high)...or a freudian slip of he was thinking of another number or something.

Obviously, those numbers just don't match up.

If the black voters don't want to support him fine...it is their loss.

[NWHarkness]

7. That's a really constructive attitude

Black voters stand by the Democrats more than any other bloc of voters. I don't think saying "it's their loss" is very respectful.

[Uzybone]

17. Keep writing off black voters like that

and youll get endless years of GOP dominance.

[WilliamPitt]

26. "If the black voters don't want to support him fine...it is their loss"

Egads. :eyes:

[JohnKleeb]

33. I disagree with that statement entirely FTI

[ShaneGR]

36. LOL- It is their loss?

What would they be losing? You do realize that Kucinich the boy mayor of Cleveland was the KING of race politics?

[SahaleArm]

41. Source?

I'm not for Kucinich but that's a strong accusation.

[Tinoire]

43. I'm so touched

by the solicitude non-Kucinich supporters are constantly showing for his campaign.

It's so touching I want to cry.



When I find a Black person dumping him or judging him for that, I'll let all the solicitous posters here be the first to know.
At the rate Black people are incarcerated and killed on the streets, I highly doubt we'd hold such a silly thing against one of the 2 candidates speaking to our issues.

It won't be our loss ;) and never mind all the people who are going to jump on you for that comment. Hell, they jumped on Kucinich, why not on you? I don't find your comment offensive at all- what I find offensive are the racist politics that we just can't seem to shake in this country.

[elperromagico]

2. Most of the candidates seemed to fumble

IMO... Dean's comment about having as much experience as Boosh won't help him a lick.

Clark didn't seem to deal in specifics at all, which worries me to no end.

Lieberman's "attack every candidate on the stage" tactic isn't going to get him anywhere.

Kerry's bizarre math to justify the Boosh tax cuts left me scratching my head.

Gephardt and Braun were practically invisible, and Edwards seems to have lost a step somewhere along the line.

[w13rd0]

3. Oh please...

...he corrected himself at the next available opportunity. I take issue with some of the things Dennis has done and said, but this isn't one of them. The one questioner brought it up, and Dennis corrected the statement with the right number as soon as he had opportunity to do so. Non-issue.

[NWHarkness]

5. No actually, he didn't

Huel Perkins corrected him after Kwame Kilpatrick went ballistic backstage.

Let me be clear, I don't think Kuchinich did anything more than fumble some numbers, but it's still going to be a costly gaffe. That may not be fair, but that's how politics is.

[w13rd0]

18. A costly gaffe?

Um, no offense to Dennis campaign, but how many points in the polls can he drop? I'm just saying it wasn't a big deal. Didn't know he was reprimanded of the error during commercial break. Still don't see it as a huge issue, for the reasons stated...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

9. Perception is reality. Remember that tired phrase?

I like Kucinich, like him a lot. But IF they're grumbling about him in Detroit today, then something is wrong. I personally believe that, as President, Kucinich would do more to help inner-cities than any other candidate. But if these reports are true, he just lost support in the largest city in Michigan, and possibly other places.

I think he'd do well to go back to Detroit and explain the whole thing over again, that he wasn't trying to single-out or denigrate Detroit, that he believes these problems exist in all large cities, that the problem doesn't lie with the citizenry, but with the government, and so on.

As for the mechanics of the slip-up last night, it was an awkward moment. I felt bad for him when the Fox idiot corrected him with the haughty tone. God knows everyone makes mistakes, and the 300 v 30 thing won't stick, but the perception problem in Detroit is, well, a problem.

[NWHarkness]

12. What is said and what is heard

is often too different things. For a lot of Detroiters, as soon as a politician start citing the city's crime statistics, and particularly if that politician overstates them , even through error, what is heard is not concern for the city but demagoguery intended to appeal to the suburbs. So, a simple gaffe can backfire badly against a well meaning candidate.

[Tinoire]

47. When you find the grumblings from Detroit let me know

If anything, they appreciate him a lot in Detroit for having grown up in the projects and come from such a poor family that they had to sleep in their car between homes.


Most of us Black folks don't care about that- what we do care about is DKs progressive stance on reforming our racist prison system and treating rehabilitated ex-felons fairly by giving them back their voting rights and such so that so many of us won't be so permanently disenfranchised.

We are capable of thought and insight you know. Kucinich is doing very well in the Black community and a mistake we can forgive much more easily than some of the misrepresentations and positions from some of the other candidates.


Q: Fast forward to the convention. You have won the nomination. Name five frontrunners for your vice presidential slot.

Sharpton: Bill Richardson. Alexis Herman. Willie Brown. I wish Paul Wellstone was still around. I would look at Dennis Kucinich, whose politics I respect. And the fifth one? I would probably even entertain some discussions with somebody like Bob Graham.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/61/61_reprint_sharpton.html

[tritsofme]

4. He's a marginal candidate, I wouldnt take much bother.

[AP]

6. When confronted with the error, he clearly knew that correct number - 35,

and he knew the total number of murders since 1972.

This issue is a whole lot of nothing. I don't know how Fox spun it live, but if you read the transcript, it's pretty clear that there's no there there with this one.

[NWHarkness]

8. Obviously, I did not make my point clear

The very fact that he thought it was appropriate to bring up those numbers at all is considered a slap in the face by many Detroiters. He may be correct on his position, and his honesty and forthrightness is admired, but it was very bad politics if he hopes to be competitive in the Michigan caucuses.

[fob]

11. I can second that NWH. I am from the Detroit area and haven't

lived there for 10 plus years. When I bring up Detroit in conversation wherever I'm at, the first thing is usually a long slow eyeroll, followed by my singing the virtues of Detroit. There was a sign on a building in downtown that was sort of an unofficial motto of the city, Say Nice Things About Detroit. If you rent 48 Hours you'll see it early in the movie. But that saying is taken to heart by those that love the city.

I didn't see the debate, but he didn't get good advice if that was one of his talking points.

Good candidate, bad move.


fob

[NWHarkness]

14. It's not generally a good move for a candidate

to come into a city and start bringing up what he thinks is wrong with it, and that's how a lot of people are seeing Kuchinich's remarks, and the local media has really played it up.

"I'm glad to be here in this crime ridden hellhole" is something you rarely hear on the campaign trail, and for good reason.

[no name no slogan]

25. How was he bringing up something bad about Detroit?

He misstated a couple of numbers, and was corrected-- nay, admonished is a better word-- by the panel, and tried to correct himself, but was chopped off at the knees by the Gwen Iffel, Condi's cooking partner. He's done this a couple of times, mostly because he tends to get nervous in the restricted "debate" setting that these candidates are put into.

Of course, it's a perfect issue for the media to grab onto and spin any way they can. Cripes, the Kooch gets to talk for MAYBE ten minutes last night, and that the ONLY thing they can come up with?

Look at what he is proposing: a new WPA-style program to not only improve and rebuild our cities, but create new good-paying jobs so people have some money to spend to stimulate the economy.

Sorry if this comes off as being defensive, but I for one am sick and tired of candidates being marginalized and deliberately ignored by the media because they aren't big fundraising machines or because they don't look "cute" on TV. This whole damn process is being reduced to a freaking poodle pageant by the press and here we are as Democrats letting them get away with it.

Face it: the media only covers what bleeds. If there's not eye-catching controversy or body, they don't really give a flying f*ck. Fourth estate, my arse. They've done nothing but parrot whatever talking points the powers-that-be want to be heard.

[redqueen]

27. Only one issue with your post...

"...and here we are as Democrats letting them get away with it."

Change that 'letting' to 'helping'

[diamondsoul]

30. Damn...just damn.*sigh*

Because in this case, I got the impression he was trying to speak with some sense of compassion about the people he'd met earlier, rather than pointing out anything "wrong" with the city of Detroit. Time for a press statement and a meeting with the Mayor.

Yep, off to get something done, and thanks very much for speaking up about this. It's a valid concern all the way around.

[AP]

15. Yeah, I'll accept that -- I only read the transcript and it was hard..

...to get a feel for the point he was trying to make.

At least he didn't say something like, the solution to the problem of racism is to change your unconscious feelings about race.

By the way, in your post you say he "retracted it when he was pressed". I think that's a mischaracterization. He knew the correct number when the point was raised. He wasn't "pressed" at all, and it wasn't a "retratction." He corrected his error as soon as the error was drawn to his attention.

[NWHarkness]

19. You are correct

I apologize if I gave a false impression by poor choice of words.

[booksenkatz]

10. Thanks for bringing this up

This has bugged the hell outta me all day. Kucinich is obviously an intelligent man who misspoke, and he apologized for it. He was trying to make a greater point. But great yodeling Jesus, the local media has spent the entire damned day hammering and hammering and hammering and hammering on this gaffe like the world's coming to an end; meanwhile, the world is on fire thanks to the Bush family and no one says a word.

Just as in 2000, we're seeing it again for 2004: all the real issues are going to be totally ignored while we focus on whether the candidate meant he toured Texas with the commissioner on November 24th or November 27th five years ago, oh my, he must be lying, no he misspoke, no he lied, no he did it on purpose because he is a serial liar, blah blah blah blah blah.

GOOD GOD!!!!!!!!!
:eyes going so far back into my skull they'll never roll forward again:

ON EDIT: Yes, as long as people want to believe that he misspoke in bad faith, yes, it will cost him votes here. I for one don't believe he did!

[redqueen]

13. A media storm over it? How shocking...

I'll ignore this like I ignored the 'insult' he was perceived as issuing by not appearing at an NAACP event earlier this year. He had a vote scheduled that he considered important, and members of the Black Caucus backed him up.

After all the whores are done with their hype, the serious people will speak the truth (simple mistake, and the reason he brought it up at all is because problems need attention to be solved, not kid-glove treatment). This message will filter down to the grassroots SANS media help, just like last time.

[Julien Sorel]

16. It will help him with name recognition.

I don't think it will matter otherwise. People in Detroit are talking about his gaffe? At least they're talking about him. They weren't before.

[Egnever]

20. It hurt him no doubt about it

His intention was to paint detroit as a violent city that his department of peace would heal. The problem is not only did he misqoute the numbers painting at incredibly more dangerous than it is, But after being corected on his figure he still tried to poush how dangerous detroit is brushing aside the comentator telling him that detrioits murder rate had dropped for the last four years running.

He was trying to make a point but was ill informed on the point he was making and trying to paint a picture that it sounds like this particular city has been doing everything in its power to change.

Bad call on denis's part i have no clue what he was thinking even bringing it up.

[lostnfound]

46. I think what you're seeing is amateurish prep people..

Since Dennis doesn't have a lot of money to attract PR coaches like Karl Rove, perhaps he's relying on well-meaning but flawed advice in his prepping.

Plus, he's one of the few candidates who still shows up for his 'day job', so he's surely burning it at both ends.

The Detroit comment was a mistake, but he did well with his usual 'poverty is a wmd' speech.

[NWHarkness]

21. Kwame Kilpatrick on the local news

Re: Kuchinich, when asked about the gaffe.

"He's someone I would never support for President of the United States".

[JohnKleeb]

22. Thats too bad because Conyers the local congressman and him are good

friends.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. I think that Conyers is better friends with Dean

U.S. Rep. John Conyers, D-Detroit, will take former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean to a number of Detroit churches. Dean will hold a rally at Detroit's Hart Plaza.

http://www.lsj.com/news/local/031026_dempres_1a-8a.html

[JohnKleeb]

32. Did I mention Dean

Sheesh its not a competion. Can't he like both of our candiates. :eyes: I dont care really, I was merely commenting that Conyers likes Kucinich, I know this to be true, because I saw them speak in DC, they are both on the progressive cancus.

[Mairead]

23. More fool Kilpatrick, then

I put about as much stock in that as I do all these guys who turned up saying piosly 'I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I have to vote GOP now because Clinton brought so much shame on the Democratic Party'. Sure, pal, whatever you say.

[SahaleArm]

44. Did Kilpatrick actually say that?

*nm*

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Isn't it normal procedure

for a candidate appearing in City X to bring a local angle into what he says?

He was asked about his proposed Department of Peace, corrected the questioner's misstatement about it replacing the Pentagon, and gave a local example of some facts he had learned in meeting with a local activist group as a "f'rinstance" about the type of problem that the Department of Peace would work on.

If there are local activist groups working on this problem, then there are undoubtedly Detroit natives who appreciated his mentioning a problem that has been ignored ever since Bushboy set out to conquer the world, if not before.

It would be interesting to see who Kilpatrick was supporting, if anyone, before the debate.

[leftofthedial]

29. yeah, but you could die just from being in Detroit

so it's not technically "murder" if you just wish you were dead.

I think it's all just hairsplitting.

Or are you saying it was a murder-suicide by DK?

Okay, okay, I'm just kidding! I've been to Detroit many times. One of my favorite experiences was making it to a game the last season of Tiger Stadium.

Like I needed one more reason to be a depressed Kucinich supporter. Thanks for ruining my night.

At least I don't live in Detroit.

[diamondsoul]

31. Don't be depressed, this can be remedied-

in spite of the doomspeak we're seeing from some.

It's just one of those things that happens, a mis-communication that hurt a bit.

There are good things going on outside of this, increased coverage, more people hearing and seeing his name, and some good reviews of his performance from lots of people!

HEY! You, my young friend need to bring yourself over to the volunteer board and read some of the ideas we're batting around. Besides, Dennis has posted over there twice now about the cross-country "Walk for Dennis"!

http://us.denniskucinich.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1040

[NWHarkness]

34. Oh yeah, that helps

You are really making your candidate look good by comments like that.

You don't live in Detroit, but more than a third of the people who will be voting in the Michigan Democratic caucus do. It's something Kuchinich and his supporters might want to think about.


Edit: Apologies to Diamondsoul, my comment was directed to Leftofthedial.

[diamondsoul]

35. No problems here.

But please do have patience with Leftofthedial. He's an impressive young man who has been supporting Kucinich for quite a while.

Most of us freely admit this is no easy campaign to be involved in. It's damned hard work and every once in a while all of us get down, hopefully not all at the same time!*LOL*

Personally I'm glad you mentioned all this. I've been pretty caught up in some local campaign efforts and hadn't had a chance to check the coverage from last night when I read this.

And BTW, a couple of things to share about Detroit, I had a blast when I was there except for one little thing- That's where I had the unpleasant experience of being raped. That's not a slam of the city, it was just a stupid set of circumstances that could have happened exactly the same way in any city anywhere in the country. What I'm getting at is that it stumps me why Detroit residents would be THAT defensive about something that happens in every major metro area across this country.

There are great things in Detroit...and Chicago, and New York, and Los Angeles...but let's face it, murder stinks everywhere. Leaves me scratching my head over the Mayor's reaction, honestly. I understand having pride, but um, WOW!

[spindoctor]

37. Gary, Indiana

Wasn't that the murder capitol?

Anywho, it would be a shame if this would cost Kucinich Michigan.
Without the transcript I can't comment on it though.

I was watching Dennis Leary's show tonight (from 91) and he made the remark that NY gets all the bad rap when Detroit is so much worse.
Is Leary endorsing a candidate?

[JohnKleeb]

38. Kerry I think for Leary

[spindoctor]

39. Kerry, Indiana?

Spelling is always the first to go.

lol

[JohnKleeb]

40. heh yea

[Renew Deal]

42. I thought it was strange.

300 people. I was wondering about that number. I thought it was possible for one reason. NYC used to have like 2000 murders a year. I am glad it's not true. As far as Kucinich going from small to non-existant, I hate to pile on but... you figure it out.

[bhunt70]

45. I think this is whats ruining the party...

Not the mistake that Kucinich made or the fact the Kilpatrick wont support him, or the fact that reporters are reporting on this in Detroit and michigan.

What I think is ruining this party and opening up huge weaknesses in our party is the way this thread turned out.

What is it a debate about? The first poster came here and said that in Detroit this was perceived as a gaffe, next thing you know we got people fighting in the thread about everything from who a certain congressman likes better, to how every candidate made mistakes, to how the black vote doesn't matter, etc.

Pull yourselves together people, how about constructive criticism instead of bashing our own. The one thing I admire about the republican party is their ability to band together and the main thing I dont like about the democratic party is our seeming inability to band together. It's almost like we band together until we know the finer points of each others politics and then we fall apart.